Carole I just sent it to your private email.  I do not know of a site where the English version is posted.   I have it and a review of it written by someone much later... I sent them both to you.   >________________________________ > From: Carole Cook <carolescoaching@broadweave.net> >To: 'Ronald and Laura' <rlboz@att.net>; baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com >Sent: Monday, February 17, 2014 8:36 AM >Subject: RE: [BW] Alsatian > > >Where can the English version be found? > >Carole > >-----Original Message----- >From: baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ronald and Laura >Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 8:09 PM >To: baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [BW] Alsatian > >I descend from glassmakers  a group of people who moved often and followed the economic tide.  The helped build all the churches in Europe, they had an enormously strong guild.  They were the only guild you could belong to and be a noble.  They were an interesting lot in that they owed allegiance first to the family / guild since you had to marry within the guild or only with guild permissions... then to the patron for whom they were working at that time (this could be an archbishop, a king, a duke, a count.... but someone with enough land, resources, and money to pay for glass which was anything but a cheap commodity until pressed glass came into being with the industrial revolution....  we still have distant cousins still making glass today!  I am sort of a repository of glass and glassmakers history.  I belong to a group of descendants of glassmakers.  We discovered by pooling all of our gedcoms into one enormous one that most of us descend >from one couple in the 1600s in Wangenbourg (Michel Andres and his wife Apollonia Krieger).  So for me this is a labor of love for my family.  > >Being from this lineage (and that of Scottish crofters and builders and German and Swiss tradesman from other grandparent lines) I have had a real education in geography, politics, and history as we can trace most lines back to the 1600s if not the 1400s.  It makes for an interesting way to look at history from your own unique family perspectives.....  often my relatives fought my other relatives.....  I married a man of of Hungarian and German / Austrian / northern Italian ancestry...  we have great fun debating over who has the most family crests (a purely nonsensical pursuit as really only the first borns get to claim them and neither of us descend from first borns when you back 2 or 3 generations) and who won the most battles over the other's families...    of course we both like history!  I however am the one who does the genealogy so I typically win most debates by reminding him the only reason he knows any of this because of the work I >have done at which point he kisses me and says something like I knew I married you for some reason!  > >Anyway,  this is loads of fun and I get to meet if only via email some of the worlds most interesting people! > >Many of my glassmaking line lived in the Black Forest areas, in Alsace and Lorraine with the most coming finally into Moselle (Meisenthal, Goetzenbruck, Montbronn, Soucht, and St Louis les Bitche).  But they all came in from Germany it seems sometime in the 1600s or earlier... > >My 4x great grandfather Georges dit Chambre Walter wrote a chronicle about the history of his family (one of my lines) that went back to the 1500s.  It shows this movement between what we call today France and Germany as being quite fluid... to the point that the glasshutten as they were called would be picked up on poles and loaded onto the back of wagons and moved to the next location! > >I have this chronicle in 3 languages, French, German, and English.  The French and German can be found on line at >http://wolf.greg.free.fr/documents/verriers.html > > >Laura > > > > >>________________________________ >> From: "RValois368@aol.com" <RValois368@aol.com> >>To: rlboz@att.net >>Cc: baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com >>Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 8:31 PM >>Subject: Re: [BW] Alsatian >> >> >> >>You are a smart lady. Alsatian, a Germanic language, is to the >ear and tongue, very difficult.  >> >>Perhaps this description of >Alsatians fits us the best: I love this perfect excerpt from Michael >Shurkin's article about Strasbourg in Zeek, February >2003………. >> >>I >discovered an interesting paradox about Alsatians. Listening in on their >conversations, I was always impressed by, and jealous of, their apparent >borderlessness. The Rhine meant nothing to >them, for on either bank they maintained the same bizarre polyglot banter in >which French, German, Alsatian, and Badisch were all entirely >interchangeable. They literally switched languages from word to word, sentence >to sentence. Sometimes I addressed them in French, sometimes in German. I don't >know if they noticed one way or the other, and I can never recall in which >language they had spoken to me. There are simply no boundaries on Südbadenbus >1076. How gloriously universalist, I thought. >> >>But >then I realized that the Alsatians' linguistic univeralism was in fact a marker >of their particularism. By being both German and French they are neither German >nor French. They are Alsatians, and out of a clash of identities they have >derived their own, unique identity, which resolves the tensions between the two >cultures while negating neither. Although Alsatians are touchy about how French >or Germans perceive them, it is only because the French and the Germans >occasionally question their loyalty. The Alsatians themselves are remarkably >comfortable with their own cultural dualism and recognize in it their own >distinctiveness. They do not fret about alienation.............. >>          >> >>Robert A. Valois >> >>In a message dated 2/16/2014 7:38:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >rlboz@att.net writes: >>Well  politically Alsace and Lporraine went back and forth between France and  Germany.  The Alsatian language has Germanic tones to it.  >>>Often the people in this Black Forest Region did not think so much >  as being French or German but as being from an area with a lot of Black Forest >  traditions that crossed the borders.  Families often lived across the >  borders and there was a lot of trade and economic travel between them as well. >    I have seen members of my family from the 1400s on move back and forth >  several times following economic opportunities.  >>> >>>I think today, >  we think more in terms of national identity and in the past this was not so >  much the case as some of those areas were blurred... >>>German dukes owned >  parts of France,  French nobility had holdings in what today is Germany, >  it was just more of a loose association of areas for economic or family >  reasons due to cross border marriages and inheritances.  >>> >>>My >  family was speaking German and then French and then German and then French >  depending upon the timeline.  My grandparents were already second >  generation American but could understand if not speak German yet they wanted >  me to learn French (go figure).  Seem that their grandparents could speak >  both and they wanted someone in the family to be able to read and understand >  letters an things they had and couldn't.  >>> >>>So I agree, back >  and forth.  This is why I always advise someone researching in east >  France or Western Germany to check areas in the other country.... sometimes >  you find your relatives moved there and you may not know why....    >  love?  economy?  running away from the law or transcription in >  military?  Many >  reasons..... >>> >>>Laura >>> >>> >>> >>>>________________________________ >>>> >  From: "RValois368@aol.com" <RValois368@aol.com> >>>>To: >  rlboz@att.net; baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com >>>>Sent: Sunday, February >  16, 2014 4:30 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [BW] Bower >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Gramps also told me - referring to Baden and >  Alsace--"back and >>>forth, back and forth". >>>> >>>>An >  ancestor did come from Strasbourg, but no evidence of >>>repeated returns has >  been found nor any reason for it. >>>> >>>>Robert A. Valois >>>> >>>>In a message dated 2/16/2014 5:19:39 P.M. Eastern >  Standard Time, >>>rlboz@att.net writes: >>>>I think  this is fairly >  common because it is a large enough area that people may have  heard of >  it...  >>>>> >>>>>The same thing happened in my family >  and my >>>  folks were from Appenweier and Rottingen so I think they >  picked the closest >>>  big town >>>>> >>>>>I live in St. >  Louis unincorporated County but the closest >>>  known place is Fenton >  so I often say I live in Fenton (we do have a Fenton >>>  post office >  address) so I wonder if our ancestors did similar >>>  >  things.... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>________________________________ >>>>>> >  From: >>>  "RValois368@aol.com" >  <RValois368@aol.com> >>>>>>To: >>>  >  baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com >>>>>>Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 >  4:11 >>>  PM >>>>>>Subject: Re: [BW] Bower >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Funny this story >>>  about our >  ancestors emigrating from  "Baden-Baden". My >>>>>>grandfather >  told me that too. But they came from Rastatt,  Baden, >>>  about 15 >>>>>>miles away, never were they from >>>  >  Baden-Baden. >>>>>> >>>>>>Robert A. Valois  >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>In >>>  a message dated >  2/16/2014 3:13:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  >>>>>>erlast@t-online.de >  writes: >>>>>> >>>>>>Search  for  B a u >>>  >  e r  not Bower. Bauer is  >>>  >  german. >>>>>> >>>>>>Erika >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>-----Ursprüngliche  >>>  Nachricht----- >>>>>>Von:  >>>  >  baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com >>>>>>[mailto:baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com]  >>>  Im Auftrag von Norma Beil >>>>>>Gesendet: Samstag, 15. >  Februar 2014 >>>  20:23 >>>>>>An:  >  BADEN-WURTTEMBERG@rootsweb.com >>>>>>Betreff: [BW] >>>  >  Bower >>>>>> >>>>>>Does anyone have  a connection with >  Benedick or >>>  Benedict Bower born 1783 >>>>>>and who >  emigrated  from Baden Baden >>>  Germany with his family in 1833 to >>>>>>the USA? His wife's  name was >>>  Elizabeth Kell >  and the children were >>>>>>Joseph,  Helen, >>>  >  Thomas,  Genevieve, and Teresa.  I believe Benedick's >>>>>>parents were Josephi  Bower and Mariea >>>  >  Eggs. >>>>>>Norma >>>>>> >>>>>>------------------------------- >>>>>>To >>>  unsubscribe from the list,  please send an email >>>  >  to >>>>>>BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the  word >>>  'unsubscribe' without >>>>>>the quotes in the subject and >  the body of >>>  the  >>>  >  message >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>------------------------------- >>>>>>To >>>  unsubscribe from  the list, please send an email to >>>>>>BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with  the word >>>  'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the >>>>>>subject and >  the body of >>>  the  >>>  >  message >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>------------------------------- >>>>>>To >>>  unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>  >  BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>  quotes in the subject and the body of the >>>  >  message >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>------------------------------- >>>>>To >>>  unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>  >  BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>  quotes in the subject and the body of the >>>message >>>> >>>> >>> >>>------------------------------- >>>To >  unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >  BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >  quotes in the subject and the body of the >message >> >> > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > >

Thank you, Laura Carole Cook -----Original Message----- From: baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ronald and Laura Sent: Monday, February 17, 2014 12:22 PM To: baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BW] Alsatian Carole I just sent it to your private email. I do not know of a site where the English version is posted. I have it and a review of it written by someone much later... I sent them both to you. >________________________________ > From: Carole Cook <carolescoaching@broadweave.net> >To: 'Ronald and Laura' <rlboz@att.net>; baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com >Sent: Monday, February 17, 2014 8:36 AM >Subject: RE: [BW] Alsatian > > >Where can the English version be found? > >Carole > >-----Original Message----- >From: baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ronald and Laura >Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 8:09 PM >To: baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [BW] Alsatian > >I descend from glassmakers a group of people who moved often and followed the economic tide. The helped build all the churches in Europe, they had an enormously strong guild. They were the only guild you could belong to and be a noble. They were an interesting lot in that they owed allegiance first to the family / guild since you had to marry within the guild or only with guild permissions... then to the patron for whom they were working at that time (this could be an archbishop, a king, a duke, a count.... but someone with enough land, resources, and money to pay for glass which was anything but a cheap commodity until pressed glass came into being with the industrial revolution.... we still have distant cousins still making glass today! I am sort of a repository of glass and glassmakers history. I belong to a group of descendants of glassmakers. We discovered by pooling all of our gedcoms into one enormous one that most of us descend >from one couple in the 1600s in Wangenbourg (Michel Andres and his wife Apollonia Krieger). So for me this is a labor of love for my family. > >Being from this lineage (and that of Scottish crofters and builders and German and Swiss tradesman from other grandparent lines) I have had a real education in geography, politics, and history as we can trace most lines back to the 1600s if not the 1400s. It makes for an interesting way to look at history from your own unique family perspectives..... often my relatives fought my other relatives..... I married a man of of Hungarian and German / Austrian / northern Italian ancestry... we have great fun debating over who has the most family crests (a purely nonsensical pursuit as really only the first borns get to claim them and neither of us descend from first borns when you back 2 or 3 generations) and who won the most battles over the other's families... of course we both like history! I however am the one who does the genealogy so I typically win most debates by reminding him the only reason he knows any of this because of the work I >have done at which point he kisses me and says something like I knew I married you for some reason! > >Anyway, this is loads of fun and I get to meet if only via email some of the worlds most interesting people! > >Many of my glassmaking line lived in the Black Forest areas, in Alsace and Lorraine with the most coming finally into Moselle (Meisenthal, Goetzenbruck, Montbronn, Soucht, and St Louis les Bitche). But they all came in from Germany it seems sometime in the 1600s or earlier... > >My 4x great grandfather Georges dit Chambre Walter wrote a chronicle about the history of his family (one of my lines) that went back to the 1500s. It shows this movement between what we call today France and Germany as being quite fluid... to the point that the glasshutten as they were called would be picked up on poles and loaded onto the back of wagons and moved to the next location! > >I have this chronicle in 3 languages, French, German, and English. The French and German can be found on line at >http://wolf.greg.free.fr/documents/verriers.html > > >Laura > > > > >>________________________________ >> From: "RValois368@aol.com" <RValois368@aol.com> >>To: rlboz@att.net >>Cc: baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com >>Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 8:31 PM >>Subject: Re: [BW] Alsatian >> >> >> >>You are a smart lady. Alsatian, a Germanic language, is to the >ear and tongue, very difficult. >> >>Perhaps this description of >Alsatians fits us the best: I love this perfect excerpt from Michael >Shurkin's article about Strasbourg in Zeek, February >2003………. >> >>I >discovered an interesting paradox about Alsatians. Listening in on their >conversations, I was always impressed by, and jealous of, their apparent >borderlessness. The Rhine meant nothing to >them, for on either bank they maintained the same bizarre polyglot banter in >which French, German, Alsatian, and Badisch were all entirely >interchangeable. They literally switched languages from word to word, sentence >to sentence. Sometimes I addressed them in French, sometimes in German. I don't >know if they noticed one way or the other, and I can never recall in which >language they had spoken to me. There are simply no boundaries on Südbadenbus >1076. How gloriously universalist, I thought. >> >>But >then I realized that the Alsatians' linguistic univeralism was in fact a marker >of their particularism. By being both German and French they are neither German >nor French. They are Alsatians, and out of a clash of identities they have >derived their own, unique identity, which resolves the tensions between the two >cultures while negating neither. Although Alsatians are touchy about how French >or Germans perceive them, it is only because the French and the Germans >occasionally question their loyalty. The Alsatians themselves are remarkably >comfortable with their own cultural dualism and recognize in it their own >distinctiveness. They do not fret about alienation.............. >> >> >>Robert A. Valois >> >>In a message dated 2/16/2014 7:38:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >rlboz@att.net writes: >>Well politically Alsace and Lporraine went back and forth between France and Germany. The Alsatian language has Germanic tones to it. >>>Often the people in this Black Forest Region did not think so much > as being French or German but as being from an area with a lot of Black Forest > traditions that crossed the borders. Families often lived across the > borders and there was a lot of trade and economic travel between them as well. > I have seen members of my family from the 1400s on move back and forth > several times following economic opportunities. >>> >>>I think today, > we think more in terms of national identity and in the past this was not so > much the case as some of those areas were blurred... >>>German dukes owned > parts of France, French nobility had holdings in what today is Germany, > it was just more of a loose association of areas for economic or family > reasons due to cross border marriages and inheritances. >>> >>>My > family was speaking German and then French and then German and then French > depending upon the timeline. My grandparents were already second > generation American but could understand if not speak German yet they wanted > me to learn French (go figure). Seem that their grandparents could speak > both and they wanted someone in the family to be able to read and understand > letters an things they had and couldn't. >>> >>>So I agree, back > and forth. This is why I always advise someone researching in east > France or Western Germany to check areas in the other country.... sometimes > you find your relatives moved there and you may not know why.... > love? economy? running away from the law or transcription in > military? Many > reasons..... >>> >>>Laura >>> >>> >>> >>>>________________________________ >>>> > From: "RValois368@aol.com" <RValois368@aol.com> >>>>To: > rlboz@att.net; baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com >>>>Sent: Sunday, February > 16, 2014 4:30 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [BW] Bower >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Gramps also told me - referring to Baden and > Alsace--"back and >>>forth, back and forth". >>>> >>>>An > ancestor did come from Strasbourg, but no evidence of >>>repeated returns has > been found nor any reason for it. >>>> >>>>Robert A. Valois >>>> >>>>In a message dated 2/16/2014 5:19:39 P.M. Eastern > Standard Time, >>>rlboz@att.net writes: >>>>I think this is fairly > common because it is a large enough area that people may have heard of > it... >>>>> >>>>>The same thing happened in my family > and my >>> folks were from Appenweier and Rottingen so I think they > picked the closest >>> big town >>>>> >>>>>I live in St. > Louis unincorporated County but the closest >>> known place is Fenton > so I often say I live in Fenton (we do have a Fenton >>> post office > address) so I wonder if our ancestors did similar >>> > things.... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>________________________________ >>>>>> > From: >>> "RValois368@aol.com" > <RValois368@aol.com> >>>>>>To: >>> > baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com >>>>>>Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 > 4:11 >>> PM >>>>>>Subject: Re: [BW] Bower >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Funny this story >>> about our > ancestors emigrating from "Baden-Baden". My >>>>>>grandfather > told me that too. But they came from Rastatt, Baden, >>> about 15 >>>>>>miles away, never were they from >>> > Baden-Baden. >>>>>> >>>>>>Robert A. Valois >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>In >>> a message dated > 2/16/2014 3:13:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>>>>erlast@t-online.de > writes: >>>>>> >>>>>>Search for B a u >>> > e r not Bower. Bauer is >>> > german. >>>>>> >>>>>>Erika >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>-----Ursprüngliche >>> Nachricht----- >>>>>>Von: >>> > baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com >>>>>>[mailto:baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com] >>> Im Auftrag von Norma Beil >>>>>>Gesendet: Samstag, 15. > Februar 2014 >>> 20:23 >>>>>>An: > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG@rootsweb.com >>>>>>Betreff: [BW] >>> > Bower >>>>>> >>>>>>Does anyone have a connection with > Benedick or >>> Benedict Bower born 1783 >>>>>>and who > emigrated from Baden Baden >>> Germany with his family in 1833 to >>>>>>the USA? His wife's name was >>> Elizabeth Kell > and the children were >>>>>>Joseph, Helen, >>> > Thomas, Genevieve, and Teresa. I believe Benedick's >>>>>>parents were Josephi Bower and Mariea >>> > Eggs. >>>>>>Norma >>>>>> >>>>>>------------------------------- >>>>>>To >>> unsubscribe from the list, please send an email >>> > to >>>>>>BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word >>> 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>>the quotes in the subject and > the body of >>> the >>> > message >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>------------------------------- >>>>>>To >>> unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word >>> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the >>>>>>subject and > the body of >>> the >>> > message >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>------------------------------- >>>>>>To >>> unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the >>> > message >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>------------------------------- >>>>>To >>> unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the >>>message >>>> >>>> >>> >>>------------------------------- >>>To > unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the >message >> >> > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message