>From my family history (unfinished), with permission, my very favorite very perfect description ........... Perhaps this description of Alsatians fits us the best: I love this perfect excerpt from Michael Shurkin's article about Strasbourg in Zeek, February 2003………. I discovered an interesting paradox about Alsatians. Listening in on their conversations, I was always impressed by, and jealous of, their apparent borderlessness. The Rhine meant nothing to them, for on either bank they maintained the same bizarre polyglot banter in which French, German, Alsatian, and Badisch were all entirely interchangeable. They literally switched languages from word to word, sentence to sentence. Sometimes I addressed them in French, sometimes in German. I don't know if they noticed one way or the other, and I can never recall in which language they had spoken to me. There are simply no boundaries on Südbadenbus 1076. How gloriously universalist, I thought. But then I realized that the Alsatians' linguistic univeralism was in fact a marker of their particularism. By being both German and French they are neither German nor French. They are Alsatians, and out of a clash of identities they have derived their own, unique identity, which resolves the tensions between the two cultures while negating neither. Although Alsatians are touchy about how French or Germans perceive them, it is only because the French and the Germans occasionally question their loyalty. The Alsatians themselves are remarkably comfortable with their own cultural dualism and recognize in it their own distinctiveness. They do not fret about alienation.............. Robert A. Valois In a message dated 4/11/2014 1:41:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rlboz@att.net writes: I love the family I have met from Alsace and Lorraine! They are a very interesting group of people with heritage from so many places... I find them more cosmopolitan than Parisians... but then I have never been a fan of really big city people as I like that more personal down to earth type of person. My German family has been more elusive and I have met less current members of my heritage than on the French side. Now, it is true that if I go back to the 1500s many of the French came from areas that are now considered German but at that time either belonged to Austria, France, or were a smaller dutchie... I invested in a book that shows the changing of the political boundaries for the world over a long period of time. I spend a lot of time looking at those maps in the years before 1900.... it helps me to understand how and why these folks moved around so much... my personal heritage is smelting pot of nationalities (German, French, Scottish, and Swiss), religions (Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian and who knows what before the 1500s)... It is fun! Laura ____________________________________ From: "RValois368@aol.com" <RValois368@aol.com> To: rlboz@att.net; klholman@bellsouth.net; baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [BW] Holman/Hollmann Surname Reseach And we Alsatians are still peeved at Louis14!!! Bob Robert A. Valois In a message dated 4/11/2014 12:55:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rlboz@att.net writes: Larry, are you familiar with GEDBAS? It is the German genealogy database... http://gedbas.genealogy.net/search/simple I put in Holman and got more than 4 pages of hits... This site has a number of ways to search. Much of the site is in German but you can use a translator like google translate or www.freetranslation.com to figure out how to use the site pretty well. Map helps below: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1771_Rizzi-Zannoni_Map_of_Germany_and _Poland_-_Geographicus_-_GermanyNW-zannoni-1771.jpg Larry there are a number of wonderful old map collections. These can help with understanding Germany (a collection of dutchies) in 1771. Here is the primary source for the next few maps: http://stock-images.antiqueprints.com/stock/europemaps.html http://stock-images.antiqueprints.com/images/sm0193-europe-kitchin-l.jpg from 1770 so a good one to look at for 1771 http://stock-images.antiqueprints.com/images/sm0216-germany-kitchin-1770-l.j pg another view http://stock-images.antiqueprints.com/images/sm0102-Europe(f6672).jpg this is from 1772 so compare it to the one above. From: Wikipedia below Wars[edit] Louis XIV of France conquered parts of Alsace and Lorraine (1678–1681), and had invaded and devastated the Electorate of the Palatinate (1688–1697) in the War of Palatinian Succession. Louis XIV benefited from the Empire's problems with the Turks, which were menacing Austria. Louis XIV ultimately had to relinquish the Electorate of the Palatinate. Frederick II, the Great, of Prussia reigned 1740-1786) Afterwards Hungary was reconquered from the Turks; Austria, under the Habsburgs, developed into a great power. Frederick II "the Great" is best known for his military genius, his reorganization of Prussian armies, his battlefield successes, his enlightened rule, and especially his making Prussia one of the great powers, as well as escaping from almost certain national disaster at the last minute. He was especially a role model for an aggressive expanding Germany down to 1945, and even today retains his heroic image in Germany.[46][47] In the War of Austrian Succession (1740–1748) Maria Theresa fought successfully for recognition of her succession to the throne. But in the Silesian Wars and in the Seven Years' War she had to cede 95 percent of Silesia to Frederick the Great. After the Peace of Hubertsburg in 1763 between Austria, Prussia and Saxony, Prussia won recognition as a great power, thus launching a century-long rivalry with Austria for the leadership of the German peoples. >From 1763, against resistance from the nobility and citizenry, an "enlightened absolutism" was established in Prussia and Austria, according to which the ruler governed according to the best precepts of the philosophers. The economies developed and legal reforms were undertaken, including the abolition of torture and the improvement in the status of Jews. Emancipation of the peasants slowly began. Compulsory education was instituted. In 1772–1795 Prussia took the lead in the partitions of Poland, with Austria and Russia splitting the rest. Prussia occupied the western territories of the former Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth that surrounded existing Prussian holdings. This occupation led over a century of Polish resistance until Poland again became independent in 1918.[48] Smaller states[edit] Completely overshadowed by Prussia and Austria, the smaller German states were generally characterized by political lethargy and administrative inefficiency, often compounded by rulers who were more concerned with their mistresses and their hunting dogs than with the affairs of state. Bavaria was especially unfortunate in this regard; it was a rural land with very heavy debts and few growth centers. Saxony was in economically good shape, although its government was seriously mismanaged, and numerous wars had taken their toll. During the time when Prussia rose rapidly within Germany, Saxony was distracted by foreign affairs. The house of Wettin concentrated on acquiring and then holding on to the Polish throne which was ultimately unsuccessful. In Württemberg the duke lavished funds on palaces, mistresses, great celebration, and hunting expeditions. Many of the city-states of Germany were run by bishops, who in reality were from powerful noble families and showed scant interest in religion. None developed a significant reputation for good government.[49] http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Europe_1430,_1770-1800_(Map_Game) Hope this helps in some way! >________________________________ > From: Larry and Kay Holman <klholman@bellsouth.net> >To: "baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com" <baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 10:19 AM >Subject: [BW] Holman/Hollmann Surname Reseach > > >I have posted here before several years ago and am doing it again to see if it reveals any new information. > >Looking for any one, especially any one living in Germany, who is researching the Holman/Hollmann surname family. My ancestor Conrad Holman came to Charleston, SC in January 1750 with only a wife Mary Ann. > >The only clue of him coming from Germany is when 20 years later he mentions in his will he left a daughter by a first wife in "Germany." What does "Germany" mean in 1771 since there was no one country Germany until 1871. > >He was a Protestant (likely Lutheran). He and Mary Ann had children named Conrad Jr., Mary Ann, Joseph, John, Melchior and Catherine. He had enough money to pay for his voyage from Rotterdam via London to Charleston, SC on the Ship Greenwich. > >Any help will be greatly appreciated, even the smallest comment. I am currently trying to identify modern day concentrations of Holman/Hollmann by using the German Phonebook (Das Telefonbuch) in hopes of identifying locations to target for detail research and contact. > >Hoping for Good Luck, >Larry Holman >Mississippi, USA > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

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Replying to a thread that carries another, now inappropriate title, and lots of baggage. In May 1971 I had finished a short course in French in Nancy and was hitch hiking to Strasbourg. The last half hour into the city I was picked up by a man who began speaking to me in Alsatian. I understood his question and replied in German. We spoke a very short time but noticing I wasn't fluent in German, he switched to French. Hearing my not-so-good French he became a little exasperated and said in English, "What are you, Dutch?" When he learned I was American we continued our conversation in English with no difficulty on his part. Reading some of the posts in the Holman thread, I can now put that conversation into greater context. The conversation was all the more amazing because I had just spent a few months nearby in the traditional capitol of the Lorraine where few locals would venture outside their linguistic comfort zone (French) even though most had spent many years studying my native language and I only weeks studying theirs.--Paul in Oregon