This is great write up! The description Paul gave is right in line with what I have found through trial and error of learning to review the parish records. Just wish I could translate more of each of the entries. I guess in Paul's terms I can define myself as a 'mountain climber' because I want to see a source/proof of linkage for a family member. However, I am still at the "barebones knowledge approach" level of being able to determine dates and the names of the individual, parents and sponsors/Godparents; but I am not able to transcribe/translate whole entries. I have a question though. I have been viewing and searching through parish records for the last couple of years of one particular town and I was wondering, what is the reliability of information found in the parish records versus the information found in the "Ortsfamilienbuch" (local family book)? The reason I ask is that I have found many occurrences of differences between the two sources - such as - Names are different - i.e. the "Ortsfamilienbuch" indicates the name as Anna Katharina but the parish records indicates the name as Maria Katharina, or "Ortsfamilienbuch" states the name as Rosina but the parish record states that the name is Anna; - Dates are different - i.e. the "Ortsfamilienbuch" indicates one date but it is something else (usually off less than a month, but sometimes it is years when it has been with a date of emigration); - Family members not listed in the "Ortsfamilienbuch" but there is a parish entry for the birth and/or death of someone (in most cases I have seen this when a child died at a very young age); - Miss match of people to families - i.e. Two different people with the same names are listed in the "Ortsfamilienbuch" but the paper trail indicates that they were crisscrossed in the "Ortsfamilienbuch" based on what is seen in the parish records. (This is a big issue for me and is causing a stone wall on determining which to follow. In the future I plan to post the dilemma to the mailing list for assistance.) So far, except for the last issue, I have been able to locate other sources to support either the "Ortsfamilienbuch" or the parish records to help me determine the best answer to follow. One thing I have learned is that one can not always trust just one source; especially if it not backed up with supporting sources that can be verified. -----Original Message----- From: baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul J. Rands Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 7:10 PM To: Baden-Wurttemberg List Subject: [BW] Are Baden-Wuerttemberg church records in German? To B-W List. The following question was asked off list but the answer will be of interest to some of the newer list members. For privacy purposes, I've moved the requester's name to Bcc. +++++++++++++++++++ List member wrote: Hello! the church records you mentioned, . . . are they in German? Short answer: The parish books are mostly handwritten in German with the occasional Latin/French word tossed in. Some are in Latin, I've been told. Comment: Warning, strong personal bias included. This is the point where the sheep go into the pen (give up) and the mountain goats start climbing. Many hobbyists stop at the Atlantic even when they know names, event dates, and town/village of their ancestors. They may go so far as to register their interest on this list, which is legitimate and a good idea in all cases as a beginning. But, they hope someone else has done or will do the German research and pass the information back to them. In some cases that works. But, in most cases, it's press on yourself, or wait a long time for another to do it for you. If this is you, make sure one of your children or grandchildren takes German, loves history and puzzles (more fun than Sudoku, IMHO), can probe any hidy hole in the internet, and will promise to take over for you someday. Or make sure he/she is motivated because skill is not as important as determination; witness all the non-German speaking computer klutzes and history/geography clueless on this list who do great research (and along the way learn enough history, geography, and German as well as become denizens of cyberspace genealogia--my new word for the day). The following is for the mountain climbers. Long answer: The parish records are a set of books--church books or Kirchenbuecher (singular = Kirchenbuch)--that have been kept by the parish ministers/scribes. Most parish books date back to the late 17th century or whenever the parish came into being if it was later. Some push back as much as a century earlier, especially over the boarder (south) in Switzerland. You will find the records divided by christenings, marriages, and deaths. Often there are also confirmations and other trivia such as the succession of priests/pastors and even the occasional note on a major event in the parish's history. The books might include a family book--Familienbuch--from a certain point in time. The divisions are not neat, i.e. not this book for that category and another for a different category. One book may have christenings from 1747 to 1812, marriages from 1775 to 1890, deaths from 1729 to 1780, and confirmations from 1820 to 1890 . The microfilms are just photos of the same in the same mixed up order. Each event is a handwritten entry in its respective section. They are in German, Latin, and a mix of the two but mostly in German. Sometimes a Latin word will be given a German declension/ending and vice versa. The handwriting covers the gamut from hen scratching to John Hancock and the ink from completely vanished/blotted out to almost laser print quality. Occasionally a page will be partially missing. Very rarely, a whole book is missing because of fire or some other disaster. In the late 19th and in the 20th century, the pages were pre-printed with columns and standard headings. Before that, each priest/pastor/scribe used his own system all mixed in the same set of books. Columns for this or that data disappear and may even reappear with the next recorder. Some entries are barebones--names and dates--while others give some wonderful history and/or some flowery language such as ". . . after a wonderful afternoon sermon on the resurrection of our Lord, was buried in the churchyard." For the pages where the recording person liked to include large entries but not conclude with a separating line, it's sometimes difficult to tell where one entry stops and another begins. That said, it takes longer, but I'll wish for the long entries every time so I can learn more about the family/circumstances of the event. Depending on the period and region, various styles of handwriting were taught in the seminaries/schools and each recorder had his (her?) variation on the same which of course evolved with their age and was affected by their mood, physical state, attitude toward their task and the persons involved, etc. Just when you learn one recorder's hand, a new recorder starts to enter the information. The good news is that for the time frame you're looking at, mid 19th century, the style and quality of the writing and the ink should be relatively good. If you only want to glean the bare essentials it's not that hard because surnames of the key parties (bride and groom, for example) are often underlined, and dates are in a separate column or in a hanging indent to the entry, so you shouldn't have a big problem learning to do this. There are many websites with tutorials, lists of handwritten variations for each letter of the alphabet in the various styles/periods. Just Google "German handwriting". But some, like me want to transcribe and translate the entire entry which can provide clues for further research. An entry always includes sponsors/Godparents, and sometimes parents' professions, military rank, whether and where (town) the fathers are citizens, religious anomalies (is the groom a Reformed Protestant getting married in a Lutheran church?), deceased parents' names, etc. I would start with finding your entries using the barebones knowledge approach and then asking for help on this list with transcribing/translating the whole event entry. Transcription is usually trickier than translation. Many on the BW list, including me, will help with scanned entries that you have isolated. You cannot attach files for posts to a list but you can ask if someone will look at something via direct email or you can point listers to a site where you've posted the scan. Often more than one lister will quickly (we're in many time zones) give a rendition for all to consider and others will jump in if they see a possible mistake or want to add/clarify. If you search out the entries, do the scanning, and ask specific questions, you can legitimately ask for help on this list and it will be freely given. If, on the other hand, you would like someone to go through the books searching for entries in order to pick out siblings, give you some background based on material in the entries, or push the line back further, you'll need to hire someone. Listers can advise on this also. I can do this, in which case contact me off list. Doing the transcribing/translating is personally satisfying and starts to give you details that reveal the family history side of genealogy, but many hobbyists get along in most cases just gleaning names and dates from entries with help when they get stuck. There is a certain amount of interpretation that some listers are good at. For example, why during a decade period, do all of this particular non-aristocratic family's babies' Godparents have either "von" in front of their surnames or "his graciousness" (example) in front of their given names? Or what is the significance of this soldier being in the Leib regiment of the Duke? There have been a lot of good questions on the list lately about illegitimate children (terrible term for a child/person who had nothing to do with breaking any laws/mores) and some great information shared by listers. When you research on the international floor at the Family History Library in Salt Lake City, there usually is a person at the information desk who can look at any entry and give a transcription and translation for you on the spot for free. This might also happen in your nearest Family History Center, but not likely because the bundle of skills and knowledge is rare. This list has members with those skills and collectively we cover a wide range of topics and therefore this list is the next best thing (and often equal to or better than) being in the FHL in SLC. OK, that's more than you wanted to know and more than I intended on writing. Next post, which films to rent (by private email) and how do you go about it. I've got an appt. to run to so I'll post that later. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message