As a general rule, the Familienbuch is derived from the parish baptismal/marriage/death registers, which consist of entries made contemporaneously (usually) with the event recorded. So, since the Familienbuch is derivative, hence a secondary source, it should probably be considered to be somewhat less reliable than the registers themselves. Usually. Generally. As a rule.... On the other hand, you may find variations in spellings, dates, etc. within the registers themselves. In that case, I would take my best guess and add a footnote. I believe the technical term is "SWAG" ("scientific wild-axxxx guess"). :-) Regards, Ted Snediker -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Carlisle Danzeisen's" <1833danzeisen@embarqmail.com> > This is great write up! The description Paul gave is right in line with > what I have found through trial and error of learning to review the parish > records. Just wish I could translate more of each of the entries. > > I guess in Paul's terms I can define myself as a 'mountain climber' because > I want to see a source/proof of linkage for a family member. However, I am > still at the "barebones knowledge approach" level of being able to determine > dates and the names of the individual, parents and sponsors/Godparents; but > I am not able to transcribe/translate whole entries. > > I have a question though. I have been viewing and searching through parish > records for the last couple of years of one particular town and I was > wondering, what is the reliability of information found in the parish > records versus the information found in the "Ortsfamilienbuch" (local family > book)? > > The reason I ask is that I have found many occurrences of differences > between the two sources - such as > - Names are different - i.e. the "Ortsfamilienbuch" indicates the name > as Anna Katharina but the parish records indicates the name as Maria > Katharina, or "Ortsfamilienbuch" states the name as Rosina but the parish > record states that the name is Anna; > - Dates are different - i.e. the "Ortsfamilienbuch" indicates one date > but it is something else (usually off less than a month, but sometimes it > is years when it has been with a date of emigration); > - Family members not listed in the "Ortsfamilienbuch" but there is a > parish entry for the birth and/or death of someone (in most cases I have > seen this when a child died at a very young age); > - Miss match of people to families - i.e. Two different people with > the same names are listed in the "Ortsfamilienbuch" but the paper trail > indicates that they were crisscrossed in the "Ortsfamilienbuch" based on > what is seen in the parish records. (This is a big issue for me and is > causing a stone wall on determining which to follow. In the future I plan > to post the dilemma to the mailing list for assistance.) > > So far, except for the last issue, I have been able to locate other sources > to support either the "Ortsfamilienbuch" or the parish records to help me > determine the best answer to follow. One thing I have learned is that one > can not always trust just one source; especially if it not backed up with > supporting sources that can be verified. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul J. Rands > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 7:10 PM > To: Baden-Wurttemberg List > Subject: [BW] Are Baden-Wuerttemberg church records in German? > > To B-W List. The following question was asked off list but the answer will > be of interest to some of the newer list members. For privacy purposes, > I've moved the requester's name to Bcc. > +++++++++++++++++++ > > List member wrote: Hello! the church records you mentioned, . . . are they > > in German? > > Short answer: The parish books are mostly handwritten in German with the > occasional Latin/French word tossed in. Some are in Latin, I've been told. > > Comment: Warning, strong personal bias included. This is the point where > the sheep go into the pen (give up) and the mountain goats start climbing. > Many hobbyists stop at the Atlantic even when they know names, event dates, > and town/village of their ancestors. They may go so far as to register > their interest on this list, which is legitimate and a good idea in all > cases as a beginning. But, they hope someone else has done or will do the > German research and pass the information back to them. In some cases that > works. But, in most cases, it's press on yourself, or wait a long time for > another to do it for you. If this is you, make sure one of your children or > > grandchildren takes German, loves history and puzzles (more fun than Sudoku, > > IMHO), can probe any hidy hole in the internet, and will promise to take > over for you someday. Or make sure he/she is motivated because skill is not > > as important as determination; witness all the non-German speaking computer > klutzes and history/geography clueless on this list who do great research > (and along the way learn enough history, geography, and German as well as > become denizens of cyberspace genealogia--my new word for the day). > > The following is for the mountain climbers. > > Long answer: The parish records are a set of books--church books or > Kirchenbuecher (singular = Kirchenbuch)--that have been kept by the parish > ministers/scribes. Most parish books date back to the late 17th century or > whenever the parish came into being if it was later. Some push back as much > > as a century earlier, especially over the boarder (south) in Switzerland. > You will find the records divided by christenings, marriages, and deaths. > Often there are also confirmations and other trivia such as the succession > of priests/pastors and even the occasional note on a major event in the > parish's history. The books might include a family book--Familienbuch--from > > a certain point in time. The divisions are not neat, i.e. not this book for > > that category and another for a different category. One book may have > christenings from 1747 to 1812, marriages from 1775 to 1890, deaths from > 1729 to 1780, and confirmations from 1820 to 1890 . The microfilms are > just photos of the same in the same mixed up order. > > Each event is a handwritten entry in its respective section. They are in > German, Latin, and a mix of the two but mostly in German. Sometimes a Latin > > word will be given a German declension/ending and vice versa. The > handwriting covers the gamut from hen scratching to John Hancock and the ink > > from completely vanished/blotted out to almost laser print quality. > Occasionally a page will be partially missing. Very rarely, a whole book is > > missing because of fire or some other disaster. In the late 19th and in the > > 20th century, the pages were pre-printed with columns and standard headings. > > Before that, each priest/pastor/scribe used his own system all mixed in the > same set of books. Columns for this or that data disappear and may even > reappear with the next recorder. Some entries are barebones--names and > dates--while others give some wonderful history and/or some flowery language > > such as ". . . after a wonderful afternoon sermon on the resurrection of our > > Lord, was buried in the churchyard." For the pages where the recording > person liked to include large entries but not conclude with a separating > line, it's sometimes difficult to tell where one entry stops and another > begins. That said, it takes longer, but I'll wish for the long entries > every time so I can learn more about the family/circumstances of the event. > > Depending on the period and region, various styles of handwriting were > taught in the seminaries/schools and each recorder had his (her?) variation > on the same which of course evolved with their age and was affected by their > > mood, physical state, attitude toward their task and the persons involved, > etc. Just when you learn one recorder's hand, a new recorder starts to > enter the information. > > The good news is that for the time frame you're looking at, mid 19th > century, the style and quality of the writing and the ink should be > relatively good. > > If you only want to glean the bare essentials it's not that hard because > surnames of the key parties (bride and groom, for example) are often > underlined, and dates are in a separate column or in a hanging indent to the > > entry, so you shouldn't have a big problem learning to do this. There are > many websites with tutorials, lists of handwritten variations for each > letter of the alphabet in the various styles/periods. Just Google "German > handwriting". But some, like me want to transcribe and translate the entire > > entry which can provide clues for further research. An entry always > includes sponsors/Godparents, and sometimes parents' professions, military > rank, whether and where (town) the fathers are citizens, religious anomalies > > (is the groom a Reformed Protestant getting married in a Lutheran church?), > deceased parents' names, etc. I would start with finding your entries using > > the barebones knowledge approach and then asking for help on this list with > transcribing/translating the whole event entry. > > Transcription is usually trickier than translation. Many on the BW list, > including me, will help with scanned entries that you have isolated. You > cannot attach files for posts to a list but you can ask if someone will look > > at something via direct email or you can point listers to a site where > you've posted the scan. Often more than one lister will quickly (we're in > many time zones) give a rendition for all to consider and others will jump > in if they see a possible mistake or want to add/clarify. If you search out > > the entries, do the scanning, and ask specific questions, you can > legitimately ask for help on this list and it will be freely given. If, on > the other hand, you would like someone to go through the books searching for > > entries in order to pick out siblings, give you some background based on > material in the entries, or push the line back further, you'll need to hire > someone. Listers can advise on this also. I can do this, in which case > contact me off list. > > Doing the transcribing/translating is personally satisfying and starts to > give you details that reveal the family history side of genealogy, but many > hobbyists get along in most cases just gleaning names and dates from entries > > with help when they get stuck. There is a certain amount of interpretation > that some listers are good at. For example, why during a decade period, do > all of this particular non-aristocratic family's babies' Godparents have > either "von" in front of their surnames or "his graciousness" (example) in > front of their given names? Or what is the significance of this soldier > being in the Leib regiment of the Duke? There have been a lot of good > questions on the list lately about illegitimate children (terrible term for > a child/person who had nothing to do with breaking any laws/mores) and some > great information shared by listers. > > When you research on the international floor at the Family History Library > in Salt Lake City, there usually is a person at the information desk who can > > look at any entry and give a transcription and translation for you on the > spot for free. This might also happen in your nearest Family History > Center, but not likely because the bundle of skills and knowledge is rare. > This list has members with those skills and collectively we cover a wide > range of topics and therefore this list is the next best thing (and often > equal to or better than) being in the FHL in SLC. > > OK, that's more than you wanted to know and more than I intended on writing. > > Next post, which films to rent (by private email) and how do you go about > it. I've got an appt. to run to so I'll post that later. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message