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Hello Lester: Ebersweier is just above Durnach. They are real close to France in the Black Forest Region. Their District is Ortenau in Baden- Württemberg. Try Family Search for records in that area. Best of luck Dan On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Lester Dietterick <les570@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > On Google Earth there is an Ebersweier Ohlsbach and an Ebersweier Durbach. > I am looking for information on Ebersweier Durbach which is about 3.4 km > (2.1 miles) from Durbach, B-W, Germany. > > I would like to know which District/Kreis/County this place is part of and > where the District/Kreis/County courthouse/Rathaus is located. > > I am trying to determine where the circa 1830-1840 civil records (land > records and paternity records) for the village of Ebersweier Durbach might > be found. > > Your help would be greatly appreciated. > > Lester > _________________________________________________________________ > With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. > > http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mobile_072008 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi, Kathy, Also a very useful post! Are you aware of any similar kinship studies done for the Kreisgau area, including Unteroewisheim and surrounding villages? Thanks, Lorraine Allrelated Researching Lapp/Lapp and Bertsch families 1709 to America (alternate spellings Barse, Barsh, Bars, Bersh, Bersch, Beersch, Beersh, Bertsch, Bresch, Bretsch, Borst, Borsch, Boersch, Buers, Burs, Pears, Pares, Peerts) On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 3:09 AM, <bigbluedog1@cox.net> wrote: > As a followup to Paul's excellent post on parishbooks, I'd like to > recommend the book, KInship in Neckarhausen, 1700-1870 by > David Warren Sabean. To quote the back cover, "This work analyzes shifts in > the relations of families, households and individuals in a single German > village during the transition to a modern social structure and cultural > order." > > I became fascinated by the family relationships and intermarriage between > families while researching Lauffen am Neckar. Over the years I have been in > touch with several people who are descendents of the villagers my ancestors > must have known in Lauffen. Many of the same surnames ocurred repeatedly in > family registers and parish registers over three hundred years. I began to > wonder why certain families intermarried and why godparents were chosen. > Kinship in Neckarhausen, while not a light read, provided insight into life > in a German village during those years. > > Regards, > Kathi OTT Williams > (Kraft, Steinle, Allinger in Lauffen am Neckar) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- "As is the generation of leaves, so is that of humanity. The wind scatters the leaves on the ground, but the live timber burgeons with leaves again in the season of spring returning. So one generation of men will grow while another dies." Iliad, VI.146-150, trans. Lattimore. So, tell me again, why the heck am I raking up all these leaves?

Fascinating example, Paul; thanks for sharing it. Your post is also a lovely road map for intense, cross-checking research in German records. I'm keeping this one. Regards, Lorraine Allrelated On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:44 AM, Paul Rands <paulrands@hotmail.com> wrote: > Carlisle wrote: . . . I have a question though. I have been viewing and > searching through parish records for the last couple of years of one > particular town and I was wondering, what is the reliability of information > found in the parish records versus the information found in the > "Ortsfamilienbuch" (local family book)? > > Me: As Ted mentioned, someone goes through the parish books (and civil > records in some cases?) and attempts to connect all of the people into > family groups. > > Compare this to LDS extraction: Each birth is extracted but kept as a > separate record. In other words, there is no attempt to show that one baby > is related to the same parents' next baby. Extracted records are very > literal, no interpretation, and therefore very accurate for what they are. > Since you can search these records in the IGI, it's more or less an index > of > that villages residents over a period of time. It's left to the researcher > (us) to combine the two babies into one family with the parents. > > The Ortsfamilienbuch/Ortssippenbuch author has a broader mission, speaks > the > language of the records, and in most cases has local knowledge. His > mission > is to transcribe and interpret. He has to decide if Johannes Georg Mayer > who was christened in 1712 is the same as Juerg Meier who married Marie > Veronica Dietz in 1735. And are Georg and Freni Meir the same couple in > the > birth entry as parents of Johann Conrad in 1737? Then is Hans Juerg and > Marie Veronica Meyer's baby Johann Gustav, born in 1740, the brother of > Conrad? > > If you think I'm exagerating, here is an example that drove me and the OSB > author bonkers. Man named A B Y married a woman named C D Z. Soon a child > was listed with parents B and D Y. A year later, another child was born to > B and D E Y. Then to A B and C E Y. Then to A and E Y. And on for about > ten births. It always looked like the same man but the woman who bore his > children used a combination of three given names that was rarely the same > combination but that overlapped enough to make one wonder if it was one or > two women. That made us wonder if there were two women, were there two > men? > Or maybe the first died and he married again a woman with the name C E X > or D E X. We couldn't resolve it using that assumption. We counted months > between babies. They were mostly 10 to 15 months apart and never less than > 9 1/2 months so it was plausible that it was one very fertile and robust > female. I read about polygamy in the time frame and found it was allowed > in > some cases during that time because of the population problem. Priests > were > also allow to marry for a decade or two. We couldn't find any evidence > that > a second marriage had taken place but we knew it could have taken place in > a > nearby village. The OSB author and I did know of each other's work until > after we both had made our own conclusions. I think I spent much more time > on it because they were my wife's ancestor and I was researching a fraction > of the people in the village over a few decades. He had the whole > population and centuries to cover. He took a wild *** guess and I entered > the data in two ways--as one family with the man marrying once and also > marrying twice after the first wife died. I footnoted the option of two > distinct couples and also one man married to two women at the same time. > (I > also discussed the issue with the top German resercher at the FHL and with > family members active in research on this line.) So you can see my first > example is not an exageration. > > I had spent three years going back and forth through eight decades of the > parish books (on permanent loan at my local FHC) for this same place, each > time finding more. I came to the end of a pedigree chart and had two of > the > eight people filled out on the right side of the chart and no line pushed > to > the next page/chart. I had about two/thirds of the lines on the page > completed (along with all of their children, of course) and I knew a great > deal about their lives and professions etc. I think I had about 150 names. > Then I went to Germany and spent a week in that town. On the second day I > was introduced to a man workding on an OSB (the man in the example above). > He let me download what he had completed by then which was well past the > time my wife's ancestors had left the town for America. With his data, I > was able to complete the pedigree chart so I got another 75 people > including > the six lines at the right of the chart. I mention this to show how much > more he was able to do than I was, because of his language and local > knowledge. But, I found things he hadn't been able to do, because they > were > not in his mission. For example, a family had two girls that, because of > overlapping names, I thought was one person. Later, I found the family had > spent time in the overlord's nearby town tending the later's business and > there I found the birth of one of the girls which made it obvious they were > two persons, not one. I document five of six things I thought he had > gotten > wrong with regards to my wife's line which he as able to correct and/or > include in his work. I was grateful and amazed at what a wealth of > knowledge he supplied to my research but also aware that he was not > infallible. I did check all the names in my wife's line that I got from > his > draft against the parish book microfilms I had so I could be satisfied that > his interpretation was good. This also allowed by to read the entries and > glean information you can't get in an OSB and make my own interpretations > since I wanted to get to the next generations on as many lines as possible. > > The OSB author pointed me to a government employee who was an expert in > late > 16th century immigration to the area. The official took one look at my > chart and could tell many of them had come from Switzerland (because of > thei > given and ruf names and in some cases their surnames). He showed me how to > find where those names might have come from in Switzerland. I joined the > Swiss List which is almost as good as this list, just smaller, and I've > been > able to push a few lines back another century. I've got more work to do on > these and feel confident I'll get more lines back more generations. > > OSB's are a treasure trove but they are still only a secondary source. Use > them to help you get the most out of your parish book films. Let the OSB > teach you how to recognize your surnames and as a check on your work. Then > take it a step further and check the author's work. It took me six hours > to > read my first paragraph entry in that parish book and I had four years of > German under my belt. The next took only half and hour, then 15 minutes, > then five. Then the scribe changed but I never had to go back to more than > half an hour. > > Remember that no one cares as much about your ancestral line as you do even > if the OSB author is passionate about his/her work and is much better > equiped to dig through the old records than you are. > > It's the same, IMHO, with hiring a researcher. He/she may be able to get > you where you couldn't go on your own but you need to take the time to see > if he/she got it right in every case. Not because the researcher might be > trying to cheat you, but because you do this out of love for your family > and/or love for the hobby/idea of getting each detail correct. And you > want > to establish a solid platform for pushing the line even further. > > Gotta go, > > Paul > > -- "As is the generation of leaves, so is that of humanity. The wind scatters the leaves on the ground, but the live timber burgeons with leaves again in the season of spring returning. So one generation of men will grow while another dies." Iliad, VI.146-150, trans. Lattimore. So, tell me again, why the heck am I raking up all these leaves?

The church books are primary resources and as such should be used to test the family books and the later Ortsippenbuchen. Even the church books can contain errors and do contain errors. When you are working with your German cousin to produce an Ortsippenbuch this is obvious. I found wrong mothers, errors in dates, & children that died twice, & children that died but were not in the Taufbuch. Even my German collaborator is dismayed by this "incoherency" of the records and lack of order! I found a new priest making an apology about the previous priest who did a bad job of record keeping. The new priest claimed that he went "door to door" to make corrections. Bert in Rochester **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)

As a followup to Paul's excellent post on parishbooks, I'd like to recommend the book, KInship in Neckarhausen, 1700-1870 by David Warren Sabean. To quote the back cover, "This work analyzes shifts in the relations of families, households and individuals in a single German village during the transition to a modern social structure and cultural order." I became fascinated by the family relationships and intermarriage between families while researching Lauffen am Neckar. Over the years I have been in touch with several people who are descendents of the villagers my ancestors must have known in Lauffen. Many of the same surnames ocurred repeatedly in family registers and parish registers over three hundred years. I began to wonder why certain families intermarried and why godparents were chosen. Kinship in Neckarhausen, while not a light read, provided insight into life in a German village during those years. Regards, Kathi OTT Williams (Kraft, Steinle, Allinger in Lauffen am Neckar)

Carlisle wrote: . . . I have a question though. I have been viewing and searching through parish records for the last couple of years of one particular town and I was wondering, what is the reliability of information found in the parish records versus the information found in the "Ortsfamilienbuch" (local family book)? Me: As Ted mentioned, someone goes through the parish books (and civil records in some cases?) and attempts to connect all of the people into family groups. Compare this to LDS extraction: Each birth is extracted but kept as a separate record. In other words, there is no attempt to show that one baby is related to the same parents' next baby. Extracted records are very literal, no interpretation, and therefore very accurate for what they are. Since you can search these records in the IGI, it's more or less an index of that villages residents over a period of time. It's left to the researcher (us) to combine the two babies into one family with the parents. The Ortsfamilienbuch/Ortssippenbuch author has a broader mission, speaks the language of the records, and in most cases has local knowledge. His mission is to transcribe and interpret. He has to decide if Johannes Georg Mayer who was christened in 1712 is the same as Juerg Meier who married Marie Veronica Dietz in 1735. And are Georg and Freni Meir the same couple in the birth entry as parents of Johann Conrad in 1737? Then is Hans Juerg and Marie Veronica Meyer's baby Johann Gustav, born in 1740, the brother of Conrad? If you think I'm exagerating, here is an example that drove me and the OSB author bonkers. Man named A B Y married a woman named C D Z. Soon a child was listed with parents B and D Y. A year later, another child was born to B and D E Y. Then to A B and C E Y. Then to A and E Y. And on for about ten births. It always looked like the same man but the woman who bore his children used a combination of three given names that was rarely the same combination but that overlapped enough to make one wonder if it was one or two women. That made us wonder if there were two women, were there two men? Or maybe the first died and he married again a woman with the name C E X or D E X. We couldn't resolve it using that assumption. We counted months between babies. They were mostly 10 to 15 months apart and never less than 9 1/2 months so it was plausible that it was one very fertile and robust female. I read about polygamy in the time frame and found it was allowed in some cases during that time because of the population problem. Priests were also allow to marry for a decade or two. We couldn't find any evidence that a second marriage had taken place but we knew it could have taken place in a nearby village. The OSB author and I did know of each other's work until after we both had made our own conclusions. I think I spent much more time on it because they were my wife's ancestor and I was researching a fraction of the people in the village over a few decades. He had the whole population and centuries to cover. He took a wild *** guess and I entered the data in two ways--as one family with the man marrying once and also marrying twice after the first wife died. I footnoted the option of two distinct couples and also one man married to two women at the same time. (I also discussed the issue with the top German resercher at the FHL and with family members active in research on this line.) So you can see my first example is not an exageration. I had spent three years going back and forth through eight decades of the parish books (on permanent loan at my local FHC) for this same place, each time finding more. I came to the end of a pedigree chart and had two of the eight people filled out on the right side of the chart and no line pushed to the next page/chart. I had about two/thirds of the lines on the page completed (along with all of their children, of course) and I knew a great deal about their lives and professions etc. I think I had about 150 names. Then I went to Germany and spent a week in that town. On the second day I was introduced to a man workding on an OSB (the man in the example above). He let me download what he had completed by then which was well past the time my wife's ancestors had left the town for America. With his data, I was able to complete the pedigree chart so I got another 75 people including the six lines at the right of the chart. I mention this to show how much more he was able to do than I was, because of his language and local knowledge. But, I found things he hadn't been able to do, because they were not in his mission. For example, a family had two girls that, because of overlapping names, I thought was one person. Later, I found the family had spent time in the overlord's nearby town tending the later's business and there I found the birth of one of the girls which made it obvious they were two persons, not one. I document five of six things I thought he had gotten wrong with regards to my wife's line which he as able to correct and/or include in his work. I was grateful and amazed at what a wealth of knowledge he supplied to my research but also aware that he was not infallible. I did check all the names in my wife's line that I got from his draft against the parish book microfilms I had so I could be satisfied that his interpretation was good. This also allowed by to read the entries and glean information you can't get in an OSB and make my own interpretations since I wanted to get to the next generations on as many lines as possible. The OSB author pointed me to a government employee who was an expert in late 16th century immigration to the area. The official took one look at my chart and could tell many of them had come from Switzerland (because of thei given and ruf names and in some cases their surnames). He showed me how to find where those names might have come from in Switzerland. I joined the Swiss List which is almost as good as this list, just smaller, and I've been able to push a few lines back another century. I've got more work to do on these and feel confident I'll get more lines back more generations. OSB's are a treasure trove but they are still only a secondary source. Use them to help you get the most out of your parish book films. Let the OSB teach you how to recognize your surnames and as a check on your work. Then take it a step further and check the author's work. It took me six hours to read my first paragraph entry in that parish book and I had four years of German under my belt. The next took only half and hour, then 15 minutes, then five. Then the scribe changed but I never had to go back to more than half an hour. Remember that no one cares as much about your ancestral line as you do even if the OSB author is passionate about his/her work and is much better equiped to dig through the old records than you are. It's the same, IMHO, with hiring a researcher. He/she may be able to get you where you couldn't go on your own but you need to take the time to see if he/she got it right in every case. Not because the researcher might be trying to cheat you, but because you do this out of love for your family and/or love for the hobby/idea of getting each detail correct. And you want to establish a solid platform for pushing the line even further. Gotta go, Paul

As a general rule, the Familienbuch is derived from the parish baptismal/marriage/death registers, which consist of entries made contemporaneously (usually) with the event recorded. So, since the Familienbuch is derivative, hence a secondary source, it should probably be considered to be somewhat less reliable than the registers themselves. Usually. Generally. As a rule.... On the other hand, you may find variations in spellings, dates, etc. within the registers themselves. In that case, I would take my best guess and add a footnote. I believe the technical term is "SWAG" ("scientific wild-axxxx guess"). :-) Regards, Ted Snediker -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Carlisle Danzeisen's" <1833danzeisen@embarqmail.com> > This is great write up! The description Paul gave is right in line with > what I have found through trial and error of learning to review the parish > records. Just wish I could translate more of each of the entries. > > I guess in Paul's terms I can define myself as a 'mountain climber' because > I want to see a source/proof of linkage for a family member. However, I am > still at the "barebones knowledge approach" level of being able to determine > dates and the names of the individual, parents and sponsors/Godparents; but > I am not able to transcribe/translate whole entries. > > I have a question though. I have been viewing and searching through parish > records for the last couple of years of one particular town and I was > wondering, what is the reliability of information found in the parish > records versus the information found in the "Ortsfamilienbuch" (local family > book)? > > The reason I ask is that I have found many occurrences of differences > between the two sources - such as > - Names are different - i.e. the "Ortsfamilienbuch" indicates the name > as Anna Katharina but the parish records indicates the name as Maria > Katharina, or "Ortsfamilienbuch" states the name as Rosina but the parish > record states that the name is Anna; > - Dates are different - i.e. the "Ortsfamilienbuch" indicates one date > but it is something else (usually off less than a month, but sometimes it > is years when it has been with a date of emigration); > - Family members not listed in the "Ortsfamilienbuch" but there is a > parish entry for the birth and/or death of someone (in most cases I have > seen this when a child died at a very young age); > - Miss match of people to families - i.e. Two different people with > the same names are listed in the "Ortsfamilienbuch" but the paper trail > indicates that they were crisscrossed in the "Ortsfamilienbuch" based on > what is seen in the parish records. (This is a big issue for me and is > causing a stone wall on determining which to follow. In the future I plan > to post the dilemma to the mailing list for assistance.) > > So far, except for the last issue, I have been able to locate other sources > to support either the "Ortsfamilienbuch" or the parish records to help me > determine the best answer to follow. One thing I have learned is that one > can not always trust just one source; especially if it not backed up with > supporting sources that can be verified. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul J. Rands > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 7:10 PM > To: Baden-Wurttemberg List > Subject: [BW] Are Baden-Wuerttemberg church records in German? > > To B-W List. The following question was asked off list but the answer will > be of interest to some of the newer list members. For privacy purposes, > I've moved the requester's name to Bcc. > +++++++++++++++++++ > > List member wrote: Hello! the church records you mentioned, . . . are they > > in German? > > Short answer: The parish books are mostly handwritten in German with the > occasional Latin/French word tossed in. Some are in Latin, I've been told. > > Comment: Warning, strong personal bias included. This is the point where > the sheep go into the pen (give up) and the mountain goats start climbing. > Many hobbyists stop at the Atlantic even when they know names, event dates, > and town/village of their ancestors. They may go so far as to register > their interest on this list, which is legitimate and a good idea in all > cases as a beginning. But, they hope someone else has done or will do the > German research and pass the information back to them. In some cases that > works. But, in most cases, it's press on yourself, or wait a long time for > another to do it for you. If this is you, make sure one of your children or > > grandchildren takes German, loves history and puzzles (more fun than Sudoku, > > IMHO), can probe any hidy hole in the internet, and will promise to take > over for you someday. Or make sure he/she is motivated because skill is not > > as important as determination; witness all the non-German speaking computer > klutzes and history/geography clueless on this list who do great research > (and along the way learn enough history, geography, and German as well as > become denizens of cyberspace genealogia--my new word for the day). > > The following is for the mountain climbers. > > Long answer: The parish records are a set of books--church books or > Kirchenbuecher (singular = Kirchenbuch)--that have been kept by the parish > ministers/scribes. Most parish books date back to the late 17th century or > whenever the parish came into being if it was later. Some push back as much > > as a century earlier, especially over the boarder (south) in Switzerland. > You will find the records divided by christenings, marriages, and deaths. > Often there are also confirmations and other trivia such as the succession > of priests/pastors and even the occasional note on a major event in the > parish's history. The books might include a family book--Familienbuch--from > > a certain point in time. The divisions are not neat, i.e. not this book for > > that category and another for a different category. One book may have > christenings from 1747 to 1812, marriages from 1775 to 1890, deaths from > 1729 to 1780, and confirmations from 1820 to 1890 . The microfilms are > just photos of the same in the same mixed up order. > > Each event is a handwritten entry in its respective section. They are in > German, Latin, and a mix of the two but mostly in German. Sometimes a Latin > > word will be given a German declension/ending and vice versa. The > handwriting covers the gamut from hen scratching to John Hancock and the ink > > from completely vanished/blotted out to almost laser print quality. > Occasionally a page will be partially missing. Very rarely, a whole book is > > missing because of fire or some other disaster. In the late 19th and in the > > 20th century, the pages were pre-printed with columns and standard headings. > > Before that, each priest/pastor/scribe used his own system all mixed in the > same set of books. Columns for this or that data disappear and may even > reappear with the next recorder. Some entries are barebones--names and > dates--while others give some wonderful history and/or some flowery language > > such as ". . . after a wonderful afternoon sermon on the resurrection of our > > Lord, was buried in the churchyard." For the pages where the recording > person liked to include large entries but not conclude with a separating > line, it's sometimes difficult to tell where one entry stops and another > begins. That said, it takes longer, but I'll wish for the long entries > every time so I can learn more about the family/circumstances of the event. > > Depending on the period and region, various styles of handwriting were > taught in the seminaries/schools and each recorder had his (her?) variation > on the same which of course evolved with their age and was affected by their > > mood, physical state, attitude toward their task and the persons involved, > etc. Just when you learn one recorder's hand, a new recorder starts to > enter the information. > > The good news is that for the time frame you're looking at, mid 19th > century, the style and quality of the writing and the ink should be > relatively good. > > If you only want to glean the bare essentials it's not that hard because > surnames of the key parties (bride and groom, for example) are often > underlined, and dates are in a separate column or in a hanging indent to the > > entry, so you shouldn't have a big problem learning to do this. There are > many websites with tutorials, lists of handwritten variations for each > letter of the alphabet in the various styles/periods. Just Google "German > handwriting". But some, like me want to transcribe and translate the entire > > entry which can provide clues for further research. An entry always > includes sponsors/Godparents, and sometimes parents' professions, military > rank, whether and where (town) the fathers are citizens, religious anomalies > > (is the groom a Reformed Protestant getting married in a Lutheran church?), > deceased parents' names, etc. I would start with finding your entries using > > the barebones knowledge approach and then asking for help on this list with > transcribing/translating the whole event entry. > > Transcription is usually trickier than translation. Many on the BW list, > including me, will help with scanned entries that you have isolated. You > cannot attach files for posts to a list but you can ask if someone will look > > at something via direct email or you can point listers to a site where > you've posted the scan. Often more than one lister will quickly (we're in > many time zones) give a rendition for all to consider and others will jump > in if they see a possible mistake or want to add/clarify. If you search out > > the entries, do the scanning, and ask specific questions, you can > legitimately ask for help on this list and it will be freely given. If, on > the other hand, you would like someone to go through the books searching for > > entries in order to pick out siblings, give you some background based on > material in the entries, or push the line back further, you'll need to hire > someone. Listers can advise on this also. I can do this, in which case > contact me off list. > > Doing the transcribing/translating is personally satisfying and starts to > give you details that reveal the family history side of genealogy, but many > hobbyists get along in most cases just gleaning names and dates from entries > > with help when they get stuck. There is a certain amount of interpretation > that some listers are good at. For example, why during a decade period, do > all of this particular non-aristocratic family's babies' Godparents have > either "von" in front of their surnames or "his graciousness" (example) in > front of their given names? Or what is the significance of this soldier > being in the Leib regiment of the Duke? There have been a lot of good > questions on the list lately about illegitimate children (terrible term for > a child/person who had nothing to do with breaking any laws/mores) and some > great information shared by listers. > > When you research on the international floor at the Family History Library > in Salt Lake City, there usually is a person at the information desk who can > > look at any entry and give a transcription and translation for you on the > spot for free. This might also happen in your nearest Family History > Center, but not likely because the bundle of skills and knowledge is rare. > This list has members with those skills and collectively we cover a wide > range of topics and therefore this list is the next best thing (and often > equal to or better than) being in the FHL in SLC. > > OK, that's more than you wanted to know and more than I intended on writing. > > Next post, which films to rent (by private email) and how do you go about > it. I've got an appt. to run to so I'll post that later. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi: I have Kümlin, Kiemle, Kiemlen, Kiemlin and perhaps other family surname spellings in several villages in and around Pforzheim. The most early ones are from Weil der Stadt. If you see any of these surnames I'd be forever grateful for an email about your findings. David Kemle ----- Original Message ----- From: JUDYLYNC@ksu.edu<mailto:JUDYLYNC@ksu.edu> To: baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com<mailto:baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [BW] Nussbaum, Germany-Hiller Nancy-- Do you have any families named Dilz in your OSB? I am particularly interested in Johann Nickle Dilz and wife Appolonia. They would have been married about 1750. Thanks in advance for looking. Judy Quoting nlyons54@comcast.net<mailto:nlyons54@comcast.net>: > My whole family is from Nussbaum. The Hiller name is listed abt 15 > times in my Nussbaum OSB if you need me to look someone up. Let me > know! > > Nancy > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: darylannsdesk@aol.com<mailto:darylannsdesk@aol.com> > > > > > I have been in touch with one person with Hiller ancestors from > Nussbaum. Are > > there any other researchers out there with a Nussbaum and/or > Pforzheim > > connection? Thanks. > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This is great write up! The description Paul gave is right in line with what I have found through trial and error of learning to review the parish records. Just wish I could translate more of each of the entries. I guess in Paul's terms I can define myself as a 'mountain climber' because I want to see a source/proof of linkage for a family member. However, I am still at the "barebones knowledge approach" level of being able to determine dates and the names of the individual, parents and sponsors/Godparents; but I am not able to transcribe/translate whole entries. I have a question though. I have been viewing and searching through parish records for the last couple of years of one particular town and I was wondering, what is the reliability of information found in the parish records versus the information found in the "Ortsfamilienbuch" (local family book)? The reason I ask is that I have found many occurrences of differences between the two sources - such as - Names are different - i.e. the "Ortsfamilienbuch" indicates the name as Anna Katharina but the parish records indicates the name as Maria Katharina, or "Ortsfamilienbuch" states the name as Rosina but the parish record states that the name is Anna; - Dates are different - i.e. the "Ortsfamilienbuch" indicates one date but it is something else (usually off less than a month, but sometimes it is years when it has been with a date of emigration); - Family members not listed in the "Ortsfamilienbuch" but there is a parish entry for the birth and/or death of someone (in most cases I have seen this when a child died at a very young age); - Miss match of people to families - i.e. Two different people with the same names are listed in the "Ortsfamilienbuch" but the paper trail indicates that they were crisscrossed in the "Ortsfamilienbuch" based on what is seen in the parish records. (This is a big issue for me and is causing a stone wall on determining which to follow. In the future I plan to post the dilemma to the mailing list for assistance.) So far, except for the last issue, I have been able to locate other sources to support either the "Ortsfamilienbuch" or the parish records to help me determine the best answer to follow. One thing I have learned is that one can not always trust just one source; especially if it not backed up with supporting sources that can be verified. -----Original Message----- From: baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul J. Rands Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 7:10 PM To: Baden-Wurttemberg List Subject: [BW] Are Baden-Wuerttemberg church records in German? To B-W List. The following question was asked off list but the answer will be of interest to some of the newer list members. For privacy purposes, I've moved the requester's name to Bcc. +++++++++++++++++++ List member wrote: Hello! the church records you mentioned, . . . are they in German? Short answer: The parish books are mostly handwritten in German with the occasional Latin/French word tossed in. Some are in Latin, I've been told. Comment: Warning, strong personal bias included. This is the point where the sheep go into the pen (give up) and the mountain goats start climbing. Many hobbyists stop at the Atlantic even when they know names, event dates, and town/village of their ancestors. They may go so far as to register their interest on this list, which is legitimate and a good idea in all cases as a beginning. But, they hope someone else has done or will do the German research and pass the information back to them. In some cases that works. But, in most cases, it's press on yourself, or wait a long time for another to do it for you. If this is you, make sure one of your children or grandchildren takes German, loves history and puzzles (more fun than Sudoku, IMHO), can probe any hidy hole in the internet, and will promise to take over for you someday. Or make sure he/she is motivated because skill is not as important as determination; witness all the non-German speaking computer klutzes and history/geography clueless on this list who do great research (and along the way learn enough history, geography, and German as well as become denizens of cyberspace genealogia--my new word for the day). The following is for the mountain climbers. Long answer: The parish records are a set of books--church books or Kirchenbuecher (singular = Kirchenbuch)--that have been kept by the parish ministers/scribes. Most parish books date back to the late 17th century or whenever the parish came into being if it was later. Some push back as much as a century earlier, especially over the boarder (south) in Switzerland. You will find the records divided by christenings, marriages, and deaths. Often there are also confirmations and other trivia such as the succession of priests/pastors and even the occasional note on a major event in the parish's history. The books might include a family book--Familienbuch--from a certain point in time. The divisions are not neat, i.e. not this book for that category and another for a different category. One book may have christenings from 1747 to 1812, marriages from 1775 to 1890, deaths from 1729 to 1780, and confirmations from 1820 to 1890 . The microfilms are just photos of the same in the same mixed up order. Each event is a handwritten entry in its respective section. They are in German, Latin, and a mix of the two but mostly in German. Sometimes a Latin word will be given a German declension/ending and vice versa. The handwriting covers the gamut from hen scratching to John Hancock and the ink from completely vanished/blotted out to almost laser print quality. Occasionally a page will be partially missing. Very rarely, a whole book is missing because of fire or some other disaster. In the late 19th and in the 20th century, the pages were pre-printed with columns and standard headings. Before that, each priest/pastor/scribe used his own system all mixed in the same set of books. Columns for this or that data disappear and may even reappear with the next recorder. Some entries are barebones--names and dates--while others give some wonderful history and/or some flowery language such as ". . . after a wonderful afternoon sermon on the resurrection of our Lord, was buried in the churchyard." For the pages where the recording person liked to include large entries but not conclude with a separating line, it's sometimes difficult to tell where one entry stops and another begins. That said, it takes longer, but I'll wish for the long entries every time so I can learn more about the family/circumstances of the event. Depending on the period and region, various styles of handwriting were taught in the seminaries/schools and each recorder had his (her?) variation on the same which of course evolved with their age and was affected by their mood, physical state, attitude toward their task and the persons involved, etc. Just when you learn one recorder's hand, a new recorder starts to enter the information. The good news is that for the time frame you're looking at, mid 19th century, the style and quality of the writing and the ink should be relatively good. If you only want to glean the bare essentials it's not that hard because surnames of the key parties (bride and groom, for example) are often underlined, and dates are in a separate column or in a hanging indent to the entry, so you shouldn't have a big problem learning to do this. There are many websites with tutorials, lists of handwritten variations for each letter of the alphabet in the various styles/periods. Just Google "German handwriting". But some, like me want to transcribe and translate the entire entry which can provide clues for further research. An entry always includes sponsors/Godparents, and sometimes parents' professions, military rank, whether and where (town) the fathers are citizens, religious anomalies (is the groom a Reformed Protestant getting married in a Lutheran church?), deceased parents' names, etc. I would start with finding your entries using the barebones knowledge approach and then asking for help on this list with transcribing/translating the whole event entry. Transcription is usually trickier than translation. Many on the BW list, including me, will help with scanned entries that you have isolated. You cannot attach files for posts to a list but you can ask if someone will look at something via direct email or you can point listers to a site where you've posted the scan. Often more than one lister will quickly (we're in many time zones) give a rendition for all to consider and others will jump in if they see a possible mistake or want to add/clarify. If you search out the entries, do the scanning, and ask specific questions, you can legitimately ask for help on this list and it will be freely given. If, on the other hand, you would like someone to go through the books searching for entries in order to pick out siblings, give you some background based on material in the entries, or push the line back further, you'll need to hire someone. Listers can advise on this also. I can do this, in which case contact me off list. Doing the transcribing/translating is personally satisfying and starts to give you details that reveal the family history side of genealogy, but many hobbyists get along in most cases just gleaning names and dates from entries with help when they get stuck. There is a certain amount of interpretation that some listers are good at. For example, why during a decade period, do all of this particular non-aristocratic family's babies' Godparents have either "von" in front of their surnames or "his graciousness" (example) in front of their given names? Or what is the significance of this soldier being in the Leib regiment of the Duke? There have been a lot of good questions on the list lately about illegitimate children (terrible term for a child/person who had nothing to do with breaking any laws/mores) and some great information shared by listers. When you research on the international floor at the Family History Library in Salt Lake City, there usually is a person at the information desk who can look at any entry and give a transcription and translation for you on the spot for free. This might also happen in your nearest Family History Center, but not likely because the bundle of skills and knowledge is rare. This list has members with those skills and collectively we cover a wide range of topics and therefore this list is the next best thing (and often equal to or better than) being in the FHL in SLC. OK, that's more than you wanted to know and more than I intended on writing. Next post, which films to rent (by private email) and how do you go about it. I've got an appt. to run to so I'll post that later. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Family History Library films 897653 - 897657 contain the Catholic Church records (St. Jakobus Kirche) for Hohenberg (Rosenberg), Jagstkreis, Wuettemberg. The Baptism records for the period I need (1830 - 1853) are missing as is the family book for this time period. Does anyone know if there exist civil records of births for this time period in these villages? Fred Kopfler

Paul, Well done! This is about as good a summation of the matter of German church records as I have ever seen. Listers, you can take Paul's guidance to the bank--I could find no error or soft spot in what he has written here. Thanks for your very valuable contribution! Regards, Ted Snediker -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Paul J. Rands" <paulrands@hotmail.com> > To B-W List. The following question was asked off list but the answer will > be of interest to some of the newer list members. For privacy purposes, > I've moved the requester's name to Bcc. > +++++++++++++++++++ > > List member wrote: Hello! the church records you mentioned, . . . are they > in German? > > Short answer: The parish books are mostly handwritten in German with the > occasional Latin/French word tossed in. Some are in Latin, I've been told. > > Comment: Warning, strong personal bias included. This is the point where > the sheep go into the pen (give up) and the mountain goats start climbing. > Many hobbyists stop at the Atlantic even when they know names, event dates, > and town/village of their ancestors. They may go so far as to register > their interest on this list, which is legitimate and a good idea in all > cases as a beginning. But, they hope someone else has done or will do the > German research and pass the information back to them. In some cases that > works. But, in most cases, it's press on yourself, or wait a long time for > another to do it for you. If this is you, make sure one of your children or > grandchildren takes German, loves history and puzzles (more fun than Sudoku, > IMHO), can probe any hidy hole in the internet, and will promise to take > over for you someday. Or make sure he/she is motivated because skill is not > as important as determination; witness all the non-German speaking computer > klutzes and history/geography clueless on this list who do great research > (and along the way learn enough history, geography, and German as well as > become denizens of cyberspace genealogia--my new word for the day). > > The following is for the mountain climbers. > > Long answer: The parish records are a set of books--church books or > Kirchenbuecher (singular = Kirchenbuch)--that have been kept by the parish > ministers/scribes. Most parish books date back to the late 17th century or > whenever the parish came into being if it was later. Some push back as much > as a century earlier, especially over the boarder (south) in Switzerland. > You will find the records divided by christenings, marriages, and deaths. > Often there are also confirmations and other trivia such as the succession > of priests/pastors and even the occasional note on a major event in the > parish's history. The books might include a family book--Familienbuch--from > a certain point in time. The divisions are not neat, i.e. not this book for > that category and another for a different category. One book may have > christenings from 1747 to 1812, marriages from 1775 to 1890, deaths from > 1729 to 1780, and confirmations from 1820 to 1890 . The microfilms are > just photos of the same in the same mixed up order. > > Each event is a handwritten entry in its respective section. They are in > German, Latin, and a mix of the two but mostly in German. Sometimes a Latin > word will be given a German declension/ending and vice versa. The > handwriting covers the gamut from hen scratching to John Hancock and the ink > from completely vanished/blotted out to almost laser print quality. > Occasionally a page will be partially missing. Very rarely, a whole book is > missing because of fire or some other disaster. In the late 19th and in the > 20th century, the pages were pre-printed with columns and standard headings. > Before that, each priest/pastor/scribe used his own system all mixed in the > same set of books. Columns for this or that data disappear and may even > reappear with the next recorder. Some entries are barebones--names and > dates--while others give some wonderful history and/or some flowery language > such as ". . . after a wonderful afternoon sermon on the resurrection of our > Lord, was buried in the churchyard." For the pages where the recording > person liked to include large entries but not conclude with a separating > line, it's sometimes difficult to tell where one entry stops and another > begins. That said, it takes longer, but I'll wish for the long entries > every time so I can learn more about the family/circumstances of the event. > > Depending on the period and region, various styles of handwriting were > taught in the seminaries/schools and each recorder had his (her?) variation > on the same which of course evolved with their age and was affected by their > mood, physical state, attitude toward their task and the persons involved, > etc. Just when you learn one recorder's hand, a new recorder starts to > enter the information. > > The good news is that for the time frame you're looking at, mid 19th > century, the style and quality of the writing and the ink should be > relatively good. > > If you only want to glean the bare essentials it's not that hard because > surnames of the key parties (bride and groom, for example) are often > underlined, and dates are in a separate column or in a hanging indent to the > entry, so you shouldn't have a big problem learning to do this. There are > many websites with tutorials, lists of handwritten variations for each > letter of the alphabet in the various styles/periods. Just Google "German > handwriting". But some, like me want to transcribe and translate the entire > entry which can provide clues for further research. An entry always > includes sponsors/Godparents, and sometimes parents' professions, military > rank, whether and where (town) the fathers are citizens, religious anomalies > (is the groom a Reformed Protestant getting married in a Lutheran church?), > deceased parents' names, etc. I would start with finding your entries using > the barebones knowledge approach and then asking for help on this list with > transcribing/translating the whole event entry. > > Transcription is usually trickier than translation. Many on the BW list, > including me, will help with scanned entries that you have isolated. You > cannot attach files for posts to a list but you can ask if someone will look > at something via direct email or you can point listers to a site where > you've posted the scan. Often more than one lister will quickly (we're in > many time zones) give a rendition for all to consider and others will jump > in if they see a possible mistake or want to add/clarify. If you search out > the entries, do the scanning, and ask specific questions, you can > legitimately ask for help on this list and it will be freely given. If, on > the other hand, you would like someone to go through the books searching for > entries in order to pick out siblings, give you some background based on > material in the entries, or push the line back further, you'll need to hire > someone. Listers can advise on this also. I can do this, in which case > contact me off list. > > Doing the transcribing/translating is personally satisfying and starts to > give you details that reveal the family history side of genealogy, but many > hobbyists get along in most cases just gleaning names and dates from entries > with help when they get stuck. There is a certain amount of interpretation > that some listers are good at. For example, why during a decade period, do > all of this particular non-aristocratic family's babies' Godparents have > either "von" in front of their surnames or "his graciousness" (example) in > front of their given names? Or what is the significance of this soldier > being in the Leib regiment of the Duke? There have been a lot of good > questions on the list lately about illegitimate children (terrible term for > a child/person who had nothing to do with breaking any laws/mores) and some > great information shared by listers. > > When you research on the international floor at the Family History Library > in Salt Lake City, there usually is a person at the information desk who can > look at any entry and give a transcription and translation for you on the > spot for free. This might also happen in your nearest Family History > Center, but not likely because the bundle of skills and knowledge is rare. > This list has members with those skills and collectively we cover a wide > range of topics and therefore this list is the next best thing (and often > equal to or better than) being in the FHL in SLC. > > OK, that's more than you wanted to know and more than I intended on writing. > > Next post, which films to rent (by private email) and how do you go about > it. I've got an appt. to run to so I'll post that later. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Nancy-- Do you have any families named Dilz in your OSB? I am particularly interested in Johann Nickle Dilz and wife Appolonia. They would have been married about 1750. Thanks in advance for looking. Judy Quoting nlyons54@comcast.net: > My whole family is from Nussbaum. The Hiller name is listed abt 15 > times in my Nussbaum OSB if you need me to look someone up. Let me > know! > > Nancy > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: darylannsdesk@aol.com > > > > > I have been in touch with one person with Hiller ancestors from > Nussbaum. Are > > there any other researchers out there with a Nussbaum and/or > Pforzheim > > connection? Thanks. > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

I am hoping someone can help me. I have just returned to this list after an absence of a few years. I am researching SCHLOSSER, Maria Magdalene born 1753, from Bottingen, Gundelsheim, and Mathias HIRSCHMUELLER , born March 1733, from Hessigheim. These two were married abt 1770, but I can not find a marriage for them. She was Catholic and he was Lutheran. They show up in Obergailbach, Alsace and the birth of their children are recorded there beginning in 1773, but no marriage. Would appreciate anyone's insight into this brick wall. He was a carpenter. Would they have been able to leave their home towns legally or ?? It makes an interesting story, I think. Thanks so much for the opportunity to ask on this list. Celine

It´s Ennabeuren near Muensingen. Back in the 1600´s and 1700`s I have Hetterich ancestors in Ennabeuren, too. Look here: http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=SHOW&db=tom1969&recno=0 It should be no problem to find Johann Georg´s ancestors in the Ennabeuren church books. Thomas from Ulm, Germany ----- Original Nachricht ---- Von: Danzdriver@aol.com An: baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com Datum: 19.07.2008 06:50 Betreff: [BW] Johann Georg Hetterich / Ulm > Looking for Johann Georg Hetterich born 1846 > (?? Eúabeûren a/t Mûnsingen??) > died Ulm A/D , 4 Nov 1932 and His first wife should be Josephine Alletag > born 1856 ?? died abt 1878 soon after the birth of Wilhelmina 21 Apr 1878 > > > > **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for > FanHouse Fantasy Football today. > (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Nancy, By any chance are there any Hillerbrands, Hildebrands listed in your book? Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: <nlyons54@comcast.net> To: <baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 11:32 PM Subject: Re: [BW] Nussbaum, Germany-Hiller > My whole family is from Nussbaum. The Hiller name is listed abt 15 times > in my Nussbaum OSB if you need me to look someone up. Let me know! > > Nancy > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: darylannsdesk@aol.com > >> >> I have been in touch with one person with Hiller ancestors from Nussbaum. >> Are >> there any other researchers out there with a Nussbaum and/or Pforzheim >> connection? Thanks. >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Paul, thank you so much for the message about research in Germany I agree with you I am a mt goat In fact I copied your message and have in my file with me My husband and I leave for Germany this Tuesday for our own personnel research. But the big thrill for us will be "walking the ground" where our ancestors did. thank you again for your very timely piece lorraine SCHEEL GROESER

I have friends in Schwablish Hall and have been there several times in the last 10 years. My wife and I was there last May 2007 for over a week. Stationed there in the Army in the early 60's Bud **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)

Looking for Ortsippenbuch for Ennabeuren near Münsingen family name: Hetterich, Johann Georg (9 Sep1846) Thanks DAN **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)

I, too, had the assistance of a person on this list who researched my family and did me a marvelous service by providing information our family had wondered about for many years but thought the "STORY" was probably just that. It was the truth. And at no cost to me. Still haven't decided how to reward this person. The person who helped me knows who they are, and once again, I cannot say how valuable their help was. The people on this list are wonderful and helpful. Norma Nyberg Turbowhiz@aol.com wrote: Hi all, sometimes if you are lucky and can get a German speaking person to call the town's library or town hall, they may know of someone who does geneology research as a hobby.That happened to us. A very nice man helped research my family back to 1577 or something. He wanted no money,so we sent him some gifts but I think that they offended him. Please do NOT ask me for his name or town, I will not respond to those questions. This was a once in a lifetime piece of luck for me and is a rare occurrence. Ellen To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message