Walter The mentioned pages are not accessible. Is there another address? Thanks Chuck http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~blenderman/ Blenderman/fg01/fg01_035.html and http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~blenderman/ Blenderman/fg01/fg01_031.html **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

George, August 4th to August 8th is not a very long time for response from query, and especially if there is not very much information. Sometimes, the smallest bit of information will elicit a response. I spent 45 years looking for the birthplace of a grandfather, WEBER, who was born in the U.S. He was secretive, did not impart information about his early life to his children. The only thing any of them knew is that he grew up in a county a couple counties removed from his children's birthplace. I scoured censuses for years at FHCs, NARA, online, and even went to the city where my aunts, uncles, and mother thought he was born. I visited the RC church to find baptism record, visited the church's graveyard looking for grave markers that might impart some clue; all to no avail. Finally, after 35 years, a state university librarian, found a record of the family in 1870, which included great uncle, so I found the names of ggrands, but still no gramps; he was born in 1873. The census record indicated a name change from WEAVER to WEBER. This also gave me information of a specific place to begin tracking. After 10 more years of searching, I decided to try a different tack online. Using the 1870 census, I queried on that county's list, using ggramp's occupation; what the history of that particular occupation, in that place, was and why he might have left the area, and where he might have gone. I received three replies. One explaining the occupation, laying railroad track, and that as the track was laid, families moved from one town to the next. Another respondent found the family in the next town, but a different county, along the line in the 1880 census - which included grandfather. That information led to more research, and I finally found great grandmother's maiden name. Using this information, I searched under that name, and voila - found a great aunt, at age 19, living with her maternal grandmother KRAFT in 1910. This led to more research and finding at least five more generations in Germany; research that another had already done. My point is, when posting a query it often helps to include every tidbit of information you have, more than just a surname and wide span of years. Good luck. Jan **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

I sent the below reply directly to Chuck's address but thought that it may be useful to others.... The pages are accessible. The problem is that your message has been formatted so that the link has been wrapped around after however many characters you have the page formatted to. Anyway if you drag the cursor, as in cut and paste, over the entire highlighted link as well as the remaining text directly below it and then paste this information into your browsers address box, you will then be brought to the proper address. ----- Original Message ----- From: <Cgs1996@aol.com> To: <baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [BW] Occupation/Apprenticeship > Walter > > The mentioned pages are not accessible. Is there another address? > > Thanks > > Chuck > > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~blenderman/ > Blenderman/fg01/fg01_035.html > > and > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~blenderman/ > Blenderman/fg01/fg01_031.html > > > > > > > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your > budget? > Read reviews on AOL Autos. > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 > ) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1601 - Release Date: 8/8/2008 > 9:02 AM > > >

Chuck, The pages are accessible. The problem is that your message has been formatted so that the link has been wrapped around after however many characters you have the page formatted to. Anyway if you drag the cursor, as in cut and paste, over the entire highlighted link as well as the remaining text directly below it and then paste this information into your browsers address box, you will then be brought to the proper address. Ralph ----- Original Message ----- From: <Cgs1996@aol.com> To: <baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [BW] Occupation/Apprenticeship > Walter > > The mentioned pages are not accessible. Is there another address? > > Thanks > > Chuck > > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~blenderman/ > Blenderman/fg01/fg01_035.html > > and > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~blenderman/ > Blenderman/fg01/fg01_031.html > > > > > > > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your > budget? > Read reviews on AOL Autos. > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 > ) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1601 - Release Date: 8/8/2008 > 9:02 AM > > >

Try roots web for surname Orbach. You can also get on the Orbach list. There are many options with out cost. There are also good help from Ancestry, The LDS at the Family History Center where they will help you. There really are to many to count. Be patient. Dan ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: George Craig <craigs22@verizon.net> Date: Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 2:12 AM Subject: [BW] orbach To: BADEN-WURTTEMBERG@rootsweb.com Good Morning : I posted a request on August 4th , for any info on Alfred ORBACH who was born in Mannheim 1860-1870 era but have not had any response as yet . Can anyone give me some guidance or advice on how to gain some info on this person ? Any help at all will be appreciated , George D Craig Former RAOGK Volunteer Beaver County , PA ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: <RAVENIA@aol.com> Date: Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 9:25 AM Subject: Re: [BW] orbach To: baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com George, August 4th to August 8th is not a very long time for response from query, and especially if there is not very much information. Sometimes, the smallest bit of information will elicit a response. I spent 45 years looking for the birthplace of a grandfather, WEBER, who was born in the U.S. He was secretive, did not impart information about his early life to his children. The only thing any of them knew is that he grew up in a county a couple counties removed from his children's birthplace. I scoured censuses for years at FHCs, NARA, online, and even went to the city where my aunts, uncles, and mother thought he was born. I visited the RC church to find baptism record, visited the church's graveyard looking for grave markers that might impart some clue; all to no avail. Finally, after 35 years, a state university librarian, found a record of the family in 1870, which included great uncle, so I found the names of ggrands, but still no gramps; he was born in 1873. The census record indicated a name change from WEAVER to WEBER. This also gave me information of a specific place to begin tracking. After 10 more years of searching, I decided to try a different tack online. Using the 1870 census, I queried on that county's list, using ggramp's occupation; what the history of that particular occupation, in that place, was and why he might have left the area, and where he might have gone. I received three replies. One explaining the occupation, laying railroad track, and that as the track was laid, families moved from one town to the next. Another respondent found the family in the next town, but a different county, along the line in the 1880 census - which included grandfather. That information led to more research, and I finally found great grandmother's maiden name. Using this information, I searched under that name, and voila - found a great aunt, at age 19, living with her maternal grandmother KRAFT in 1910. This led to more research and finding at least five more generations in Germany; research that another had already done. My point is, when posting a query it often helps to include every tidbit of information you have, more than just a surname and wide span of years. Good luck. Jan **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. ( http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

-----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 2:12 AM ToSubject: [BW] orbach ===SNIP=== I posted a request on August 4th , for any info on Alfred ORBACH who was born in Mannheim 1860-1870 era but have not had any response as yet . Can anyone give me some guidance or advice on how to gain some info on this person? George D Craig Beaver County , PA _____ Dear George & Baden-Wuerttemberg List Friends, Just as a friendly clarification for all, keep in mind that getting a prompt (and sometimes any) response to a query on a genealogy mailing list such as this one will usually depend entirely on whether someone subscribed to that list recognizes the family or individual in question, and indeed has information to share. Such a person may simply happen to be researching the same names or lines, or be familiar with a particular location mentioned in a post. J Sometimes, people are not aware that the BW mailing list is *NOT* a genealogical library, research service, file collection, official archive or Web site. The information shared here comes strictly from individual members of the public who subscribe to the list. All information exchanged is in response to questions and genealogical queries posted by subscribers to this list via e-mail. *This is how a genealogy mailing list works.* The number and promptness of replies to queries may also depend on the number of a list's subscribers. The Baden-Wuerttemberg List averages about 1100 people; other lists may have many more subscribers, depending on the area of coverage of the list. While not all subscribers choose to post or respond to queries on the list on a regular basis, a few BW list members who are very knowledgeable about German genealogy and particularly Baden-Wuerttemberg genealogy post quite regularly. Everyone should also be aware that his or her posts to the Baden-Wuerttemberg Mailing List are accessible in the list archives long after one round of e-mail circulation. Sometimes, you may receive a response to a query or other post months or years after it originally appeared, because a member of the public has seen the post in the list archives and recognized a possible link or a shared research interest. While waiting to see a possible response to a query you may have shared with us, you might find it of interest to visit the list archives to see if someone has *previously* posted a message that would be of help to you. The Baden-Wuerttemberg Mailing List archives are accessible at: <http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/search?path=BADEN-WURTTEMBERG > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/search?path=BADEN-WURTTEMBERG (search mode) OR <http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/BADEN-WURTTEMBERG/> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/BADEN-WURTTEMBERG/ (browse messages by month/year) The BW List archives currently hold posts (numbering in hundreds per month) from the present and dating back monthly to at least 1997, and a smaller number of posts going back even further than that. Hope this offers some encouragement to those who may not see a response to a query right away! Wishing you the best research outcomes, Carla HELLER, Los Angeles, California USA <mailto:mscarlah@earthlink.net> mscarlah@earthlink.net List Co-Administrator, ROOTSWEB'S Baden-Wuerttemberg Mailing List

Good Morning : I posted a request on August 4th , for any info on Alfred ORBACH who was born in Mannheim 1860-1870 era but have not had any response as yet . Can anyone give me some guidance or advice on how to gain some info on this person ? Any help at all will be appreciated , George D Craig Former RAOGK Volunteer Beaver County , PA

Re Domstat. Remember too that over the years (late 1700's thru 1871 and the start of the "empire") that there existed disjointed parts of the Duchy of Hesse-Darmstadt. I have seen it shortened to just Darmstadt and I believe that means the larger political entity rather than just the city. Perhaps this is the area meant in the census. I believe it is extremely rare to find a city listed as the country of origin on census records. Rick Fraas

Hello, Another delayed response. Since no one else seems to have caught the slip, permit me to point out that Luther was born in Eisleben, not Wittenberg. He taught in the latter later in life. Walter ************************************************************************ ***** They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benj. Franklin, 1759 Walter G. Blenderman, N. Plainfield, NJ, USA **mailto:netchemist@earthlink.net***************************http:// www.blenderman.net**

Hello, I'm a little behind in reading, and just caught up with the early July discussion on apprenticeships. It is possible to find guild records, but they aren't common. My GGGGG grandfather, Liborius Blendermann, was a button maker (Knopfmacher) in Magdeburg. Amazingly, I found a microfilm of the button makers' guild book amongst the Mormon church collections. I found three entries that describe the training of three apprentices, giving their names and terms of service (5-6 years). I also found the record of his son Conrad Christoph being apprenticed to another button maker (probably indicating that Liborius had died by that time). You can see these pages posted at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~blenderman/ Blenderman/fg01/fg01_035.html and http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~blenderman/ Blenderman/fg01/fg01_031.html Click on the little camera icon next to the names to see the guild documents. Walter ************************************************************************ ***** They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benj. Franklin, 1759 Walter G. Blenderman, N. Plainfield, NJ, USA **mailto:netchemist@earthlink.net***************************http:// www.blenderman.net**

Hi All I avidly read every note that is posted about name changes in our ancestors because of all the changes I found in my father's family surname. I found that their name actually started as Ehinger before it turned into Egner. Won't go into all the variations I found in the German records and corrections that other people had made to the original records. But, one thing I did find in the American records that Carla did not mention was a reversal of his name. My ancestor's name was reversed on his naturalization records. I almost passed him up. The name on the declaration of intent was listed as Ikenor Wendall. His name in Baden was Wendelin Ehinger. Now before someone says NO--wrong man. Let me explain how I decided that he was the right man. Wendelin Ehinger was born in Stollhofen, Baden, in 1803. He married Magdalena Schue/Schuh. The page from the Familienbuch states they left for America in 1837. Wendelin Egner & Magdalena appear in the Indiana 1850 census. The information in the declaration of Intent stated that Ikenor was born in Stollhofen, Baden, in 1803; that he left Harve de Grace in June 1837, arrived in New Orleans and made his way to Dearborn County, Indiana. Just too many matching items to not be the same man. I can only think that he gave his last name first when the County clerk asked for his name. He could have said Ehinger, Wendel Ehinger and the clerk wrote what his Indiana ears heard. As Carla has said many times, please keep an open mind when you are looking at these old documents. Good luck with the hunt. Tonia

I have a puzzle, I'm hoping someone might help me with. Below is a run-down of what I have. I've been struggling to put together the family of my great grandfather Matthais Bader from Dunstelkingen, Jagstkreis, Germany. Thanks to a lot of people on this list, I've come up with some information, but today, I ran into a seeming contradiction. Matthais arrived, apparently with no other Baders, by the Bark Lina in 1854 in New York. According to family lore, he went first to Wisconsin, then to Illinois, then St. Louis Missouri, followed by St. Clair in Franklin County Missouri. Matthais was married first to an unknown woman, probably named Louise [until a week ago, I didn't have even a first name for her]. They had children, Edward Bader b.1859– , Henry Bader 1863– , r Annie Bader 1865– , Mary Bader 1867 –1868, Mathias Bader 1869–1952. Louise died, accdg to cemetery Listing July 9-10, 1869. Matthias married Maria Anna Hetzler, a widow in his boarding house, three days later. She had two children, Fr. Safran Hitzler 1860–, and Sariel Antonia Hitzler 1861–, who are listed in a later federal census under the name Bader - though I found no formal records of adoption (yet). They had two more children, Margret Bader 1871–1880 and George Bader 1876–1900. He then married Christina Luchsinger. They had these children; Henry Martin Bader 1877–1942, Joseph Bader 1882–, John Bader 1885– , and William Bader 1889–1965. Records show him in St. Louis 1869-1874, and on a farm near St. Clair, Franklin County, Missouri which he bought in 1874. So here is my problem: I recently found a 1867 census for Franklin County Missouri, which lists the following as residing there: Matthias [sp] Bader [age over 45 yrs] Frank " " [age 10-18] Atoinnette " " [age 10-18] Henry " " [age 10-18] Anna " " [age 10-18] Mary " " [age <10] Matthias " " [age <10] Charles " " [age <10] These appear to be listed in age order, though there is no wife listed. I have no prior record of Charles, but if he is son of Louise, he'd have to either be twin to Matthias, or born before him somehow, due to the timing. If he's son of Maria Anna, then where is she? And did they buy a farm, perhaps stay there in the heat of the summer and return to the boarding house in St. Louis in the winter? How else could they be listed on this census? Most of all, how does an 1867 Census list the son Matthias who was born in 1869? Could the date of the census be incorrect? Thanks in advance for any advice or hints in resolving this. Madelyn Bader-DeWitt **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

Dear Baden-Wuerttemberg Mailing List Friends, Some incoming messages to the BW List have been redirected to my administrative mailbox today because they were too large in size for the RootsWeb computer system to accommodate as a list post. This is a friendly reminder that the computer system which operates our list sets a default MAXIMUM message length of 10K. Fortunately, for most messages, this length is more than adequate to communicate well. :-) To insure that your list messages get through so that other list subscribers can see them, PLEASE BE SURE THAT YOU: 1) KEEP YOUR MESSAGE RELATIVELY BRIEF (under 10K) --- OR *ALTERNATIVELY,* 2) *DO NOT* INCLUDE MORE THAN ONE ORIGINAL MESSAGE AND YOUR RESPONSE TO IT IN A SINGLE LIST POST. In other words, omit the running thread of messages that have gone before, or just include *excerpts* from something, if it is pertinent to your response. 3) Remember that RootsWeb mailing lists do NOT accept attachment files of any kind. These are removed and discarded automatically by the system. If you wish to share these with particular list members who may have expressed interest in reviewing them, please use off-list email or other means (such as posting the information to a Web page or site) to do so. 3) Please do not attempt to share data such as ancestral charts, pedigrees or scanned documents on list. If you wish to share these with particular list members who may have expressed interest in reviewing them, please use off-list email or other means to do so. Observing these guidelines will help prevent your message being rejected by the RootsWeb computer. THANK YOU! Wishing you the best research outcomes, Carla HELLER, Los Angeles, California, USA mscarlah@earthlink.net List Co-Administrator, ROOTSWEB's Baden-Wuerttemberg Mailing List

Cindy, I see you have good answers for some of your questions so I'll try to fill in the gaps. (Note: I wrote this earlier before I saw Carla Heller's post who appears to have adequately filled in the gaps already. Nevertheless, since this is already written, I'm sending it anyway since there might be a tidbit of use to someone on the list.) You: On census records 1860 on they are listed as Bower, but the ship's passenger list (Brig Herschel) out of Bremen, Germany lists them all as Bauer arriving in Galveston, Texas 1/24/1850. Did they Americanize the name themselves? Me: It was the ship's crew's responsibility to fill out the arriving passengers list. Out of Bremen the crew spoke/read/wrote German so you usually get a better home-country rendition of the names. There still were variations due to acceptable alternate spellings for various sounds and less standardization of surnames than today. For Bauer, however, you pretty much get one spelling in Germany which was BAUER. Today it's the 13th most common name in the phone book and was at least that common in your time frame. It is found in every county in modern Germany with concentrations in the southwest and southeast (which is more or less meaningless because of its high incidence everywhere). See modern distribution map for Bauer at http://christoph.stoepel.net/geogen/en/MapGateway.aspx?name=Bauer&target=DE&renderer=EN_US&mode=abs Relative distribution shows the south supersaturated. See http://christoph.stoepel.net/geogen/en/MapGateway.aspx?name=Bauer&target=DE&renderer=EN_US&mode=rel Based on modern distribution of the name, I'd say that there is a 60% chance you'll find their roots in the modern states of Baden-Wuerttemberg and Bavaria. See http://christoph.stoepel.net/geogen/v3/Map.ashx?name=Bauer&target=DE&renderer=EN_US&mode=stat This last concept is interesting but about as useful to you as saying that you are 99% likely to find your Bower/Bauer family's roots in Germany. You can generate your own surname maps/charts from surnames you chose at http://christoph.stoepel.net/geogen/en/Default.aspx If you heard a German say Bauer, unless you have studied German you would write Bower in English. The pronunciation of the first syllable (Bau) is the same in English and German--bow as in leaning forward from the waist up not the funny little tie or gift adornment. The second/last syllable (er) is pronounced like English word air, not like the ur that Americans would tend to say. Who Americanized the name? My question now. Was it Americanized? Does your husband's family spell their surname Bower? If so, the family itself changed it. If, on the other hand, the only time you see the Bower spelling is on old documents such as the census, then the enumerator/official was not a German speaker and he/she spelled the name without asking the respondent for the proper spelling. He spelled it like his American ears heard it. If the family changed the spelling, they most likely did so because Americans misspronounced it when they saw Bauer or they misspelled it as Bower when they heard it and they got tired of correcting them. Mostly, they wanted to fit in in their new country. You: On various census reports, Westenberg, Badin and Germany are listed as well as something that appears to be Domstat. Me: Westenberg is most likely an incorrect transciption of Wurtenberg/Wirtenberg/Wertenberg (typical American guesses for the spelling of Wuerttemberg). Badin is most likely an American enumerator's spelling for Baden. Both Baden and Wuerttemberg were considered separate countries until 1871 and technically until later than that so country of origin would indeed elicite Baden or Wuerttemberg as responses in the pre-WW I era and especially in the pre-German Empire era (1871 through WW I). Why did they (Westenberg/Wuerttemberg and Badin/Baden) show up on various successive census? This pair of responses is a little unusual but not unlikely. They are next to each other and some areas on the border changed hands. Also, it depended on what the respondent's perception of how the asking person will react to the answer. A large percentage of German immigrants gave Prussia as their country of origin in the 1870 Census even though they had stated Baden or Wuerttemberg or Hessen or something else in the 1850 and/or the 1860 and even the 1880. Why? Because Prussia led most German states (countries) in the Franco-Prussian War [against France, of course] and so most Americans considered what we now call Germany to be Prussia. So, they told their questioners what they thought they would understand. Because of newspaper headlines about the war, most Americans knew Prussia but might not have known what Wuerttemberg was. Other reasons to change the location of your origin nation is because major areas came under the control of a different entity. I had the dickens of a time trying to get one woman to stop looking in Prussia (i.e. Eastern Germnay) for a name that was clearly from near the Dutch border based on previous census statements and other family documents. She was rivited on Prussia because of a few documents that correctly stated Prussia during the time when Prussia did control the Palatinate. But, most records about the family would only be found in their hometown in western Germany or in an area repository, not in far off Berlin. Re Domstat. You may have gotten really lucky here. You occasionally see the enumerator writing down a city. I suspect this is because he/she had no idea that the respondent was giving him more information (or more detailed information) than he/she had requested. He assumed it was a country he had never heard of (and maybe that all the neighbors were also giving as the answer) and so he wrote the city intead of or along with the country of origin. I strongly suggest you scan that entry and ask which members of this list would like to take a stab at transcribing it. You've gotten some good guesses based on your transcription. You might get a better transcription from a member here and reduce the uncertainty of the answer. This could be your big breakthrough. Going from the 13th most common surname to a surname and a specific city (or area around a city) is a big improvement. You've also got given names (most likely their second given names since most used the second one as their called name) and approx birth years. You could well be on your way to genealogy nirvana. You: Can I confirm that I'm on the right track? I noticed that the northern Wurttemberg immigrants seemed to depart from La Havre, France. Which would be more normal a France or Bremen in northern Germany? Me: 1700's emigrants usually traveled down the Rhine River or along the Baltic into the north sea/Atlantic and departed from Rotterdam with a stop in England (typically the island of Cowes) to clear British customs (remember the colonies were Brithish back then). If they stopped in England, they didn't even get off the ship, just a place to get their noses counted. In the 1800's the main ports became Bremen and Le Havre. The fact that they came via Bremen might suggest they did everything legally, i.e. they registered to leave which means we might be able to find them in an emigration database. Le Havre does suggest a western Germany origin but Bremen does not preclude western Germany. You: I have absolutely no experience tracing into a foreign country. Me: That's why most of us are members of this list. Most of us (including me) started out knowing little about how to go about looking in Germany. We've stayed because of the willingness to help others with what we learn is so amazing. And fortunately, most are not as long-winded as I am. Welcome and good hunting. Paul in Oregon

-----Original Message----- From: baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Magdaleneseries@aol.com Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [BW] John and Frederick Warth My father's ancestor was John Warth and when he emigrated to America listed his former nationality and his business as King of Wurttemberg. His brother Frederick also emigrated and listed himself as Emperor of Germany. I have seen the emigration and naturalization papers and this is the only information available. I know this is a long shot but can anyone help me with locating family records. Suzen Warth ======================================================== Dear Suzen & Baden-Wuerttemberg List Friends, I believe Suzen may be looking at information or either immigration or naturalization records which simply identifies her ancestors as then-current or former *subjects* of the King of Wuerttemberg (Wuerttemberg was indeed a kingdom in former times, and there were kings of that nation from 1806-1918) and the Emperor of Germany (known as the Kaiser) (who existed once the German Empire was officially formed in 1871 until 1918.) The name of the ruler of the nation to whom one owed allegiance is commonly expressed information on emigration and other documents, and this information would fluctuate over time, depending upon who was currently reigning. A person who emigrated and eventually became a citizen in another country (such as the USA) would customarily be required to renounce his or her allegiance to his or her former ruler as part of the naturalization process. :-) I hope I am not misinterpreting Suzen's question, and intending absolutely no disrespect to Suzen whatsoever, I feel confident in suggesting that the individuals in question were *not* likely the King of Wuerttemberg or the Emperor of Germany themselves. If they actually were, the genealogy and history of those persons is rather easy to trace (including online), as it has been well-documented; we can also note that the surname of these royals was not WARTH, nor something closely similar. Hope this at least gives Suzen some further food for thought. Good luck! Wishing everyone the best research success, Carla HELLER, Los Angeles, California USA mscarlah@earthlink.net List Co-Administrator, ROOTSWEB'S Baden-Wuerttemberg Mailing List =============================================================

Dear Baden-Wuerttemberg List Friends, For those researching German ancestors, it is often very frustrating to try to pinpoint ancestral localities, or even verify that one is searching for the *correct* place name. If you are seeking an ancestral location, you'll want to research it carefully to see whether there is (or was): 1. MORE THAN ONE LOCALITY BY THAT NAME in Germany. For example, it's important to know that there is a "Frankfurt" in the state of Hessen [Frankfurt am Main], as well as a "Frankfurt" in in the state of Brandenburg [Frankfurt an der Oder]. Identically-named localities are common in Germany---and are often in different parts of the country, such as the two Frankfurts. 2. A LOCALITY IN FORMERLY-EXISTING OR RENAMED STATES: Don't forget that some parts of what *used to* be "in Germany" before one of the World Wars are now in completely different countries (such as Poland, Czech Republic, etc.). In addition, some former German states no longer exist (such as "Prussia," once a very large German kingdom encompassing territory in both western and eastern "Germany"), or are now known by a different or modified name. For example, Baden-Wuerttemberg is a post-World War II 'combination' of the previously separate-for-centuries states of Baden, Wuerttemberg and Hohenzollern. 3. A LOCALITY WHICH HAS SINCE MERGED WITH A NEARBY PLACE: Your ancestral locality may have become part of a neighboring town in more recent times, and is more readily identified now by the other town's name (a very common situation, especially for small villages). The search results provided by GeoServe (see below) usually will note whether such a merger has occurred, with the words, "Part of [Town X]" included in the text. 4. A LOCALITY WHOSE NAME IS SPELLED VERY *SIMILARLY* TO ANOTHER LOCALITY'S NAME: This can be tricky. One of my ancestral towns is D-i-e-d-e-s-h-e-i-m, Kreis ["county"] Mosbach, Baden. Before I got more familiar with German geography, I confused "Diedesheim" with D-e-i-d-e-s-h-e-i-m---a completely different place, not in Baden, but in the state of Rheinland-Pfalz, and I later confused Diedesheim with D-i-e-d-e-l-s-h-e-i-m, which is in Kreis Karlsruhe, not Kreis Mosbach, Baden. These names look nearly identical, but if you read them carefully, you'll notice there are three *different* names. Also be aware that there may be archaic *spellings* for place names, such as "Wuertenberg" or "Wirtemberg" for the more modern Wuerttemberg/Württemberg. In this particular case, they refer to the same place. It is also easy to confuse the suffix "-berg" with "-burg" in German locality names, two *different* German words respectively meaning "mountain" [Berg] and "fortress" [Burg]. Note that these separate words are *not interchangeable.* If you think you're looking for a "HeidelBURG," or a "FreiBERG," for example, you may not find much information about them until you realize the correct spellings for each (Heidelberg, Freiburg). 5. A GERMAN STATE NAME WHICH IS SIMILAR OR IDENTICAL TO A GERMAN TOWN'S NAME: Many of you have experienced the confusion, for example, of the *state* of Baden with the *town* of Baden [the latter called Baden-Baden since 1931]. For basic help with that issue, you can see my Web page on the subject, "Which 'Baden' Is Which?" at http://home.earthlink.net/~mscarlah/ . 6. GERMAN-LANGUAGE PLACE NAMES WHICH ARE VERY DIFFERENT IN ENGLISH OR OTHER LANGUAGES: Did you know that the German state we call "Bavaria" in English is known as "Bayern" in German? Or that the region of "Alsace-Lorraine" in French is "Elsass-Lothringen" in German? Would you recognize the German names "Deutschland," "Schweiz," "Frankreich," and "Österreich" as Germany, Switzerland, France, and Austria? Be sure to make yourself aware of any 'foreign aliases' by which your ancestral town or country may be known. [I once titled a travel class essay, "When Lunchin' in München, Please Don't Eat the Wieners" (i.e., "When Lunchin' in Munich, Please Don't Eat the Viennese.") München = Munich, the Bavarian city; Wien = Vienna, the capital of Austria---and "Wieners" are people, not hot dogs.] :-) * * * * * * * * * * * Foreign location names can be checked fairly simply---with good online maps (such as at MapQuest or Expedia), geographical name searches using email (like GEOServe), and databases like Shtetl Seeker----the latter will even display names of places that SOUND similar to the name you've entered, and help you find a map to see the placement of the location to determine it's the one you want. You may want to visit the following Web sites for instructions and more information on basic geographic searches: Arthur Teschler's GEOServe (the Web page gives instructions----note that the SEARCHES are conducted by quick-return EMAIL, however---this search engine is limited to localities in Germany only) http://www.rootsweb.com/~deurhepf/geoserv.html JewishGEN's ShtetlSeeker Database of *European* geographic names, even for many tiny villages and hamlets (searches are performed on the Web page; *NOT* limited to German locations or Jewish 'shtetls') http://www.jewishgen.org/ShtetlSeeker/loctown.htm MapQuest (to find and display a map showing your location of interest) http://www.mapquest.com Expedia Maps (to find and display a map showing your location of interest) http://maps.expedia.com Hope this helps! Wishing everyone the best research success, Carla HELLER, Los Angeles, California USA mscarlah@earthlink.net List Co-Administrator, ROOTSWEB'S Baden-Wuerttemberg Mailing List

Dear Baden-Wuerttemberg List Friends, In response to those seeking help with names (both given names and surnames), there are a number of Web sites which provide information about German and other given names, surnames and nicknames that are very helpful to family researchers. Visit one or more for more information (all of those below are FREE). The list has been UPDATED as of August 4, 2008, and obsolete/nonfunctional links have been removed: German Names/Deutsche Namen, Part One: First Names http://german.about.com/library/weekly/aa042699.htm?once=true German Names, Part Two: Surnames (Nachnamen) http://german.about.com/library/weekly/aa050399.htm?once=true German First Names Lexicon (Vornamenlexikon) http://german.about.com/library/blvornamen01.htm?once=true Catholic Online Saints [name index] [As children were often named after recognized 'saints,' this is a superb resource for figuring out such archaic and unfamiliar first name[s] as "Kunigunda," "Kilianus," "Sixtus," "Dionys," "Urbanus," "Eleutherius," "Polycarpus," "Eudoxia," "Hieronymous," "Blaisius," and many, many more] http://saints.catholic.org/stsindex.html 18th Century Pennsylvania Dutch [German] Nicknames http://www.kerchner.com/nickname.htm 18th Century Pennsylvania Dutch [German] Naming Customs http://www.kerchner.com/germname.htm Gateway to Surname Origins (many links, not limited to Germanic names) http://www.angelfire.com/ks/windshipgenhelp/indexsurnamehelps.html Translation of First Names (interactive, but not comprehensive) http://www8.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/html/wwp/engl/entr/trans.html Last Name Meanings & Origins - How to Trace the Origin of Your Surname http://genealogy.about.com/od/surnames/a/surname_meaning.htm "Dit" Names (Name Variations) http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/lwjones/dit.htm Behind the Name: The Etymology & History of First Names (has an alphabetic search feature) http://www.behindthename.com/ German First Names & Their Meanings (site in German) http://www.kindername.de/ I have used a number of these sites in the course of my own research. You can find lots of others by using Google or another search engine and using a search term like "German name research" or similar. Hope they prove helpful to others! With warmest wishes, Carla HELLER, Los Angeles, California USA mscarlah@earthlink.net List Co-Administrator, ROOTSWEB'S Baden-Wuerttemberg Mailing List ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Baden-Wuerttemberg List Friends, Here are some notes I've compiled to contribute to answering the common question, "How/Why Would My Ancestor's Surname Be Changed?" We see this and similar questions often from members on the Baden-Wuerttemberg Mailing List. While mine is certainly not the definitive answer, the notes from my own experience in dealing with ancestral surnames may be of interest to some, so I am taking the liberty of re-posting it here. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------- Whenever you research ANY resource for ancestral information, remember that the name versions or name spellings under which your ancestors appear in a given resource may *or may not* be those you are *expecting* to find. Some reasons: 1. While *not every* immigrant or family changed his or her name (or had them altered by others), family researchers should prepare for the *possibility* that the names they have grown used to may bear little resemblance to the immigrant's 'original' name. Also realize that even in *European* records, the spelling or other features of a particular surname can vary considerably---it's pretty rare to find a single, 'standardized' spelling of a surname, used consistently, in most records. As has already been pointed out in related messages by others, spelling WAS NOT AT ALL STANDARDIZED in former centuries (and is still a relatively "recent" phenomenon by genealogical time-measuring criteria.) Spelling and transcription (committing verbal pronunciation to paper), in particular, will literally depend upon the language, literacy level, and good ear of the scribe (the person writing a document), *even in the ancestor's homeland.* 2. AFTER CROSSING THE ATLANTIC? Many family researchers don't realize that official American documents were NOT often personally written (or application forms filled out) by their ancestors. More often, a clerk or public official completed most paperwork, obtaining the information verbally from the person to whom the document pertained, or his interpreter (if any). (On many official records, the only portion actually *written* by the ancestor is the signature---if the person was literate.) You want to avoid assuming, "This is the way Grandpa spelled it on his naturalization [or whatever] form, so it must be the right way." U. S. officials could have easily mangled the name by scribbling or mistyping it in haste, carelessness, or linguistic ignorance---and your ancestor *may or may not have been able* to recognize/call attention to errors or variances. Some were stuck with a misspelled or mis-rendered name form thereafter, or didn't bother to change it. 3. Keep in mind, too, that THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO HAD NAME CHANGES *DID NOT* HAVE THEM LEGALLY/OFFICIALLY CHANGED BY A COURT. Be aware that (especially many years ago in the US) it was entirely possible to simply *use* a name one chose to establish an identity with that name. (My Polish BARANOWSKI maternal ancestors who settled in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania changed their surname to BROWN one day, in the course of a family wedding---my great-grandfather BARANOWSKI merely started calling himself and children BROWN, and his male descendants remain BROWN to this day. You'd never know from looking at the name that the bearers had native Polish origins!) *grin* 3. Many of what appear to a family researcher to be 'mistakes' in a name are actually NOT the result of an *error.* A significant number of immigrants *intentionally* modified their *own* names, or the spelling/pronunciation of those names, after settling in a new country. Contrary to the popular myth of foreign names being arbitrarily altered by others upon immigrants' arrival "at Ellis Island" (or some other processing facility), these changes were more often brought about by the *immigrant's own needs or preferences.* Some changes may have happened quickly, while others evolved slowly over time. Some non-English names were simply too difficult to pronounce for English-speakers, and were quickly simplified. Others were altered by American employers who found it bothersome to address workers by unfamiliar, tongue-twisting European names. Many other immigrants sincerely wished to quickly "fit in" to the culture and social customs of their new land, and "Americanized" their names to facilitate the process. Some went so far as to transform their existing name forms into another language, evolving from "Karl RITTER" to "Charles KNIGHT" (the same names in German and English) or similar changes. And, last but not least---the more *complex* the syllables in a non-English name, the greater the chance of someone mangling it in the US or other English-speaking countries. :-) You may want to sit down with pencil and paper, and try to imagine a few possible variations in the spelling or form of your surname of interest---e.g., SCHMIDT, SCHMITT, SCHMID, SCHMIED, (and their English counterparts SMITH, SMYTH and SMYTHE) can all be variants of the *same* name. Remember, even if (to your knowledge) your family has "always used" the same form of a name in the country in which they settled, that doesn't *guarantee* that the name was spelled or pronounced that way, or even *used,* at other times. Literally and figuratively, surnames are written in neither blood nor stone. Hope this helps! Wishing you the best possible success in family research, Carla HELLER, Los Angeles, California USA mscarlah@earthlink.net List Co-Administrator, ROOTSWEB'S Baden-Wuerttemberg Mailing List

-----Original Message----- From: baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:baden-wurttemberg-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cindy Cunningham Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 2:08 AM Subject: [BW] Bower/Bauer surname Wurttemberg? I'm trying to confirm that I am on the correct track with my husband's relatives. On census records 1860 on they are listed as Bower, but the ship's passenger list (Brig Herschel) out of Bremen, Germany lists them all as Bauer arriving in Galveston, Texas 1/24/1850. Did they Americanize the name themselves? On various census reports, Westenberg, Badin and Germany are listed as well as something that appears to be Domstat. Most trees I've found for Bower, not mine, list Badin-Wurttemberg and I've seen on the map that there is a Dornstadt on the eastern border. Can I confirm that I'm on the right track? I noticed that the northern Wurttemberg immigrants seemed to depart from La Havre, France. Which would be more normal a France or Bremen in northern Germany? I have absolutely no experience tracing into a foreign country. My relatives were here much earlier on. Cindy Cunningham ============================================================================ Dear Cindy & Baden-Wuerttemberg List Friends, It appears from Cindy's notes above that a few spelling/name rendering errors may need adjustment---always a good idea to help keep research on the right track. :-) By the way, United States census documents from just about any era are notorious for spelling errors in names of all kinds, not to mention flat-out errors or misunderstandings in recording information on the part of the census taker, and sometimes deliberate misinformation (or evasion, or confusion, or a language barrier) on the part of the people being interviewed for the census. It's wise to bear that in mind as you look at census record information. :-) Just off the top of my head, I believe the following adjustments to Cindy's information are in order: (1) Badin = likely a simple misspelling of BADEN. The German name Baden is always spelled B-A-D-E-N (and means "baths" in German, relating to the numerous natural mineral springs found all over Baden territory.) It is likely that the census taker just misspelled it. (2) Domstat = *could* be the city of DARMSTADT, which is located outside of Baden-Wuerttemberg in the German state of Hesse. Hesse is located to the north of Baden (western central Germany.) (3) Westenberg = offhand, there is at least one city in Germany called Westenberg, which is located in the state of Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony), which is not part of Baden, Wuerttemberg or Baden-Wuerttemberg, and is quite a distance away from it in northwestern Germany (whereas Baden and Wuerttemberg are and always have been in southwestern Germany.) Westenberg on your document *might* also be a misrendering of the name Wuerttemberg, which is sometimes seen in archaic spellings such as Wirttemberg, Wuertenberg, and a number of other variations. (4) The name BOWER (English language spelling) and the German name BAUER are *pronounced* the same, although the technical *meanings* of those two words in respectively English and German are quite different. [As another list member has already correctly pointed out, in German, the word and name BAUER means "farmer"; the English word/name BOWER means "a leafy shelter; an arbor; a rustic dwelling or cottage."] It should be emphasized that BAUER is an extremely COMMON Germanic surname, one found all over not only Baden-Wuerttemberg, but in virtually every German state and also in other German-speaking areas, so correctly pinpointing your specific BAUER ancestors at their point of origin will have its share of challenges---but then, challenges of this kind are typical to most German family origin research (most of us are in the same boat.) As to whether your ancestors changed their original name themselves, it is quite common to find German and other European names "reinvented" in an English version which made things easier for Americans and other English-speakers to pronounce once emigrants settled outside of their places of origin. This might have been accomplished by the emigrants themselves, or by someone else (employers who found European language names too difficult to pronounce, for example) Some emigrants changed their own names in a desire to assimilate in the new country and "fit in." (For example, my Polish-born BARANOWSKI great-grandparents became my BROWN great-grandparents in the course of a family wedding in 1925, and the male descendants remain BROWN to this day.) Most people DID NOT formally and officially seek to have their surnames changed by a court (which many people could not afford, anyway). In earlier eras in the United States, it was fairly common for someone simply to adopt a new name (first, last and/or middle) and begin using it consistently. Eventually, the person became officially identified by that new name, and it might have also passed on to his or her descendants thereafter. Hope these bits of information prove helpful in some way. Warmest wishes, Carla HELLER, Los Angeles, California USA mscarlah@earthlink.net List Co-Administrator, RootsWeb's Baden-Wuerttemberg Mailing List