Hi Gerry, Did Jacob Oehler serve in the Civil War ? If he did and was wounded there may be pension records at the National Archives. Applications for benefits asked for a soldiers home town. My g.grandfather's discharge papers only indicated that he was from Wuerttemberg, but the documents for disability benefits included his village, his wife's village, and testimony of other soldiers regarding his injury and health. There were letters from lawyers, doctors, former neighbors, employers, commanding officers etc. In additon to giving me the village in Germany, I was able to look at his life and those of other American soldiers during the Civil War. One of the letters from a fellow soldier detailed how my g. grandfather sang in the tent with the other soldiers and tried to teach everyone a little German !!! Kathi OTT Williams Researching: EHRLER in Bartenstein, KRAFT, ALLINGER,STEINLE in Lauffen am Neckar, and OTT in Hasburg, Bavaria. ---- Gerry Miller <gmiller@ktis.net> wrote: > I'm curious to know if one could search the Archives for a certain person > not knowing where the person's village might be. If so I maybe could hire > someone to search for me? > > I would be looking for Jacob ÖHLER born Mar. 1835 Württemberg, Immigrated > 1855. I have found no ships record, naturalization record. > > Thanks. > > ...Gerry in MO > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gerry, On 10 Aug 2008 at 17:56, Gerry Miller wrote: > I'm curious to know if one could search the Archives for a certain > person not knowing where the person's village might be. > If so I may be could hire someone to search for me? Sorry, that not possible. The preserved church records are books or sheets once written by the minister manually. They are not searchable like data in a data base. So you need to know the person's village before searching in the church books (or films) of the archive. > I would be looking for Jacob ÖHLER born Mar. 1835 Württemberg, > Immigrated 1855. I have found no ships record, naturalization > record. But there is one searchable data base which may be a good starting point to find possible places where OEHLERs once have lived in Württemberg: the data base of emigrants of Southwest Germany often cited this mailing list: <http://www.auswanderer-bw.de/auswanderer/index.php?sprache=en> Now my suggestion how to proceed: go to the search formular, key in OEHLER. The data base is giving you a list of some dozens OEHLER emigrants. Then focus your interest to those OEHLERs who emigrated between say 1850 to about 1860. In order to check where these OEHLERS came from click on blue icon at the left of the line for details. These details show you the place where the emigrants came from and the archive where the emigrant records are preserved. For Württemberg emigrants the relevant archive is in Stuttgart, for Baden emigrants the relevant archive is in Karlsruhe. At the end you have at least some good place, knowing (1) there lived OEHLERs in the time span in question and (2) some of the OEHLER families emigrated from there. The next step would be to check the church books of these few places for the searched person. There is a certain chance but no guarantee that you will find in one of the books your Jacob OEHLER. Good luck Dieter -- Dieter Joos Ueberlingen / Bodensee, Germany Webmaster of RootsWeb's Baden-Wuerttemberg Mailing List > > Thanks. > > ...Gerry in MO > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Richard, the Evangelische Landeskirche Württemberg (Evangelical Church of Württemberg) has produced films about all evangelical church books of Württemberg inclusive those in the Haupstaatsarchiv Stuttgart. LDS owns copies of these films. This site might be helpful to learn more about this item: <http://www.elk- wue.de/fileadmin/mediapool/elkwue/dokumente/Merkblatt_Familienforschun g_LKArchiv_english.pdf> Dieter -- Dieter Joos Ueberlingen / Bodensee, Germany Webmaster of RootsWeb's Baden-Wuerttemberg Mailing List On 10 Aug 2008 at 15:59, Dick Hillenbrand wrote: > Dieter, > > Do you know if LDS ever filmed the records in the Hauptstaatsarchiv in > Stuttgart? > > I just looked at their online library catalog at FamilySearch.org and > it appears as though they have overviews of the holdings, but I was > not able to find any specific locations listed. > > Thank you. > > Richard Hillenbrand > > > On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 3:38 PM, Dieter Joos <djoos@dieter-joos.de> > wrote: > > > Paul, > > > > On 9 Aug 2008 at 19:52, Paul Rands wrote: > > > > +++++ > > About civil records > > In the the German Empire civil registration were introduced by law > > in not until 1875. In the time before the German states handled the > > civil registration separately. In Württemberg the king ordered 1808 > > that the minister of the church had to act as his registrator of the > > civil records. In this function the minister had to deliver copies > > of his records to the administration in Stuttgart. Today these are > > preserved in the Hauptstaatsarchiv in Stuttgart. > > +++++ > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Paul, On 9 Aug 2008 at 19:52, Paul Rands wrote: [...] > I can guess what a Kirchenbuch is, but then I wouldn't know if my > guess is correct. Can list members tell me: 1) What is a > Kirchenbuchduplicat? 2) In Germany, are old Kirchenbuchduplicats > archived in the same place with the Kirchbuchen? If not, then where? > 3) Are the Kirchenbuchduplicats the records that town > archivists/officials typically look at when they answer emails about > our ancestors and which roots tourists sometimes get to peruse when > showing up at city hall? 4) What advantages/disadvantages do > Kirchenbuchduplicats have compared to the Kirchenbuch? 5) Is there > ever a situation when both might be worth looking at instead of just > one of them? 6) What experiences have list members had with > Kirchenbuchduplicaten (pl?) that shed light on my questions? [...] In answering a question about civil records I wrote on this BW-List on July, 18: +++++ About civil records In the the German Empire civil registration were introduced by law in not until 1875. In the time before the German states handled the civil registration separately. In Württemberg the king ordered 1808 that the minister of the church had to act as his registrator of the civil records. In this function the minister had to deliver copies of his records to the administration in Stuttgart. Today these are preserved in the Hauptstaatsarchiv in Stuttgart. +++++ In Baden the situation was quite similiar. The copies in Baden are preserved in the Generallandesarchiv Karlsruhe. If I understand your questions about Kirchenbuchduplicates right, these duplicates are the very copies of the the church books records, I mentioned above which the ministers had to deliver to the state administration. What supports this assumptions is the fact, that the Kirchenbuchduplicates filmes by LDS begin in nearly all cases are beginning in 1808 -1810. Having said that I think most of your five questions are answered herewith. If not please continue to ask. I want to use this opportunity to express my special thanks to you for your highly valuable and profound contributions to our BW-list. I appreciate that very much. Dieter -- Dieter Joos Ueberlingen / Bodensee, Germany Webmaster of RootsWeb's Baden-Wuerttemberg Mailing List

baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com writes: >But there is one searchable data base which may be a good starting point to >find possible places where OEHLERs once have lived in Württemberg: the >data base of emigrants of Southwest Germany often cited this mailing list: > ><http://www.auswanderer-bw.de/auswanderer/index.php?sprache=en> > >Now my suggestion how to proceed: go to the search formular, key in >OEHLER. The data base is giving you a list of some dozens OEHLER >emigrants. Then focus your interest to those OEHLERs who emigrated >between say 1850 to about 1860. In order to check where these OEHLERS >came from click on blue icon at the left of the line for details. These details >show you the place where the emigrants came from and the archive where >the emigrant records are preserved. For Württemberg emigrants the >relevant archive is in Stuttgart, for Baden emigrants the relevant archive is >in Karlsruhe. > >At the end you have at least some good place, knowing (1) there lived >OEHLERs in the time span in question and (2) some of the OEHLER >families emigrated from there. The next step would be to check the church >books of these few places for the searched person. There is a certain >chance but no guarantee that you will find in one of the books your Jacob I just have to say that I read this and even though I thought I'd tried this link before, perhaps I used the wrong surname or a different link. In any event, I inserted Mörz and lo and behold, got exactly the right person, dates and all! This has made my evening, after years of searching, so thank you, danke danke schön, Dieter. I also found a Johann Simon Mörz and wonder if it is likely that he is a relative - brother? - to Karl? He emigrated in 1851, 3 years earlier and now I am tracking down where he went, never considering this name might be a family match. His emigration number is one digit different from Karl's (34828 and 34829), so can one assume they applied at the same time or perhaps they were the only ones who applied in that place? So Karl was a Bauer, Evangelical (protestant) and apparently from Hardthausen am Kocher. With the emigrant identification number as well, where is the next best place to start filling in holes? Is it Utah or Stuttgart? There are so many questions that arise, including one that was discussed earlier on this list. Would 500 fl have been a small or an average amount of money to have? (This was a family of 2 adults and 3 small children.) My other question (for now) is: What information is contained in the "gemeindeschluessel" number (in this case, it is 08125111)? Does this match a parish? Apologies for asking questions that have been discussed, but it is hard to focus on details of some exchanges when one is still trying to manage that 'next step'. Kathleen

I'm trying to get more information about my grandfather, Gottlieb Grammel.? His death certificate states in was born November 4, 1853 and died February 20, 1901.? He married Louisa Caspar, born June 21, 1864 in Karlsruhe on September 27, 1883.? His occupation was listed as a maltser and they came to Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA aboard the Ship "Elbe" in December of 1883. The spelling was GRAMEL.? He had two brothers, George and Charles that came earlier ?to the United States.? Charles was a brewmeister? and George a harnessmaker.? Thank you, Adam G. Schuler

Max Cramer transcribed a lot of church records from Württemberg as well as did 24 microfilms of family registers. He also did 48 microfilms of an index and genealogies in Württemberg. The additional nice thing about the records is that he typed them. They have all been filmed and are available in the Family History Centers in the United States. Access in Europe is limited to members of Church of the Latter Day Saints. The filming occurred in Augsburg. Pam Anderson

I'm curious to know if one could search the Archives for a certain person not knowing where the person's village might be. If so I maybe could hire someone to search for me? I would be looking for Jacob ÖHLER born Mar. 1835 Württemberg, Immigrated 1855. I have found no ships record, naturalization record. Thanks. ...Gerry in MO

Thanks Walter Chuck To elaborate on my earlier message: I did a place search in the FamilySearch library catalog page <http://www.familysearch.org/eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp>. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

Nancy, I also have a Johann Conrad Kienlin born 2 June 1699. Perhaps there might be a relationship since Conrad seems to be a family name. Ann nlyons54@comcast.net wrote: > Ann, > > I checked my book and none of the names you mentioned are there but I did find Anna Maria Kienlin who married Johannes BÄCHLE on 1 Nov 1712 in Nussbaum. She's the one I mentioned to David. Her father is listed as Cunrad KIENLE, b abt 1657. > > Nancy > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: Ann Francesconi <annf@usa2net.net> > > >> Nancy, >> I am researching the Kienlin surname.The earliest ancestor is >> Bartholomaeus Kienlin who married three times. The names of his wives >> are Anna Maria Gerber (married 23 Jan 1667),Elisabetha Flesch married 1 >> Oct 1690) and Anna Maria Freytag ( married 4 Feb 1698). All marriages >> were in Endingen. I have no information on the birth of Bartholomaeus >> Kienlin. Could he be related to Anna Maria? Any help would be appreciated. >> Ann >> nlyons54@comcast.net wrote: >> >>> David, >>> There's only one name that's even close...it's Anna Maria Kienlin, b 27 Feb. >>> >> 1683. Could it be your "m" is really an "n" ? >> >>> Nancy >>> >>> -------------- Original message -------------- >>> From: "David Kemle" >>> >>> >>> >>>> Hi: >>>> I have Kümlin, Kiemle, Kiemlen, Kiemlin and perhaps other family surname >>>> spellings in several villages in and around Pforzheim. The most early ones >>>> >> are >> >>>> from Weil der Stadt. >>>> If you see any of these surnames I'd be forever grateful for an email about >>>> >> your >> >>>> findings. >>>> David Kemle >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: JUDYLYNC@ksu.edu >>>> To: baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com >>>> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 10:30 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [BW] Nussbaum, Germany-Hiller >>>> >>>> >>>> Nancy-- >>>> >>>> Do you have any families named Dilz in your OSB? I am particularly >>>> interested in Johann Nickle Dilz and wife Appolonia. They would have >>>> been married about 1750. Thanks in advance for looking. >>>> >>>> Judy >>>> >>>> Quoting nlyons54@comcast.net: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> My whole family is from Nussbaum. The Hiller name is listed abt 15 >>>>> times in my Nussbaum OSB if you need me to look someone up. Let me >>>>> know! >>>>> >>>>> Nancy >>>>> >>>>> -------------- Original message -------------- >>>>> From: darylannsdesk@aol.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I have been in touch with one person with Hiller ancestors from >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Nussbaum. Are >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> there any other researchers out there with a Nussbaum and/or >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Pforzheim >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> connection? Thanks. >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com> .com> with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> >>>> >>>>> without the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com> .com> with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> >>>> >>>>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com> .com> with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> >> without the quotes in the subject and the body >> >>>> of the message >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> >> the >> >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> >> BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dieter, Do you know if LDS ever filmed the records in the Hauptstaatsarchiv in Stuttgart? I just looked at their online library catalog at FamilySearch.org and it appears as though they have overviews of the holdings, but I was not able to find any specific locations listed. Thank you. Richard Hillenbrand On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 3:38 PM, Dieter Joos <djoos@dieter-joos.de> wrote: > Paul, > > On 9 Aug 2008 at 19:52, Paul Rands wrote: > > +++++ > About civil records > In the the German Empire civil registration were introduced by law in not > until 1875. In the time before the German states handled the civil > registration separately. In Württemberg the king ordered 1808 that the > minister of the church had to act as his registrator of the civil records. > In this function the minister had to deliver copies of his records to the > administration in Stuttgart. Today these are preserved in the > Hauptstaatsarchiv in Stuttgart. > +++++ > >

Chuck, To elaborate on my earlier message: I did a place search in the FamilySearch library catalog page <http://www.familysearch.org/eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp>. In this case I was looking for records in Magdeburg. The results then tell you all the types of records they have available. For Magdeburg, they had a microfilm containing the records of several guilds, including the button makers, and also the barber-surgeons (Chirurgen) if I remember correctly. This is the only guild book I've ever come across for all the various places that I've searched on there. As I said, some exist, but they're not very common. Maybe you'll get lucky. Regards, Walter > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 00:52:30 EDT > From: Cgs1996@aol.com > Subject: Re: [BW] Occupation/Apprenticeship > To: baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <d32.38f36dd8.35ce7c8e@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Walter > > Where did you find the guild information? > > Thanks > > Chuck > > > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your > budget? > Read reviews on AOL Autos. > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review? > ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) > > ************************************************************************ ***** They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benj. Franklin, 1759 Walter G. Blenderman, N. Plainfield, NJ, USA **mailto:netchemist@earthlink.net***************************http:// www.blenderman.net**

I would like to first compliment Paul on his wonderful explanation of how he went on with the deduction as to which place was the one in question. I am dealing since many years with the same problems - and sometimes with the idea of the people that " but I do have it here on paper" ! Given the times and the abilities of "recorders" and "immigrants" to understand each other in "English" ( whatever we would call that today ) and spell that correctly, ...... I`ve had been barking up many a wrong tree ...! There is one thing I would like to mention. In one of my own U.S. lines I´ve been "handed down" a nice long list of ancestors. Beeing a bit of a stickler for detail, I´ve started to check these data against an LDS film. Sometimes during that I became aware that the film was only a typed excerpt of the actual church registers. For some reason - don´t know what made me do it - I asked the Lutheran archive that held the records, if THEY had any other films about that parish. To my amazement, they not only had another film - that the LDS doesn´t have - but were willing to borrow it to me !!!!!!!!!!!! Working with this filmed originals I finally came into the DEATH part. And lo and behold, .. I´ve found the much acclaimed ancestor who had moved to the US in these records too ... telling me that he died at the age of four ( 4 ) right there in the German parish where he was baptised. The excerpt didn´t mention any death entries - as I´ve seen upon checking it again, ..... So - if you can´t link any ancestor who emmigrated from Europe - withour bending and thisting all data - maybe he/she isn´t the right person for a start. Wilhelm Paul Rands schrieb: > I'm thinking there might be some pennies worth stooping for in the > answers to the questions below--possibly another technique to add to > our quivers. > > Liebe Geschwister, > > When looking for and at microfilms, I've often seen the term > Kirchenbuchduplikat, films of which are often available along side the > Kirchenbuch film or as the only film. I've not paid much attention and > have used the duplikats interchangeably with the Kirchenbuch. Without > thinking much about it, I've assumed it was a second microfilming of > the Kirchenbuch. Today, it struck me that I'm wrong on this assumption. > > I can guess what a Kirchenbuch is, but then I wouldn't know if my > guess is correct. Can list members tell me: > 1) What is a Kirchenbuchduplicat? > 2) In Germany, are old Kirchenbuchduplicats archived in the same place > with the Kirchbuchen? If not, then where? > 3) Are the Kirchenbuchduplicats the records that town > archivists/officials typically look at when they answer emails about > our ancestors and which roots tourists sometimes get to peruse when > showing up at city hall? > 4) What advantages/disadvantages do Kirchenbuchduplicats have compared > to the Kirchenbuch? > 5) Is there ever a situation when both might be worth looking at > instead of just one of them? > 6) What experiences have list members had with Kirchenbuchduplicaten > (pl?) that shed light on my questions? > > What I'm getting at by question #5: If a Kirchenbuchduplicat is a > later, handwritten copy of the original, besides allowing typos* and > omissions to enter into the record, might there also be some additions > (a cross and a death date, an emigration date and destination, as > examples), clarifications or interpretations added by the person doing > the copying? Might the copier also have a more modern handwriting > style and/or write clearer and might the page/ink be in better shape? > But I'm suggesting answers to my own question. The answers to these > questions might provide another way to break through on a > difficult-to-read entry that is holding up one's research. > > Here is the example from the LDS FHL online catalog of microfilm: > > Topic Germany, Baden, Grünwettersbach - Church records > Titles Kirchenbuch, 1649-1963 Evangelische Kirche Grünwettersbach (A. > Durlach) > Kirchenbuchduplikat, 1800-1869 Evangelische Kirche Grünwettersbach (A. > Durlach) > > Thanks in advance, > > Paul > in Portland, Oregon area > where we've had a cool, rainless, summer day. I'm glad we don't get > more of these because everyone would be trying to move here and it > wouldn't be so nice with four or five times the existing population. > Members on the list are always welcome to move here, of course. > > * Would "manos" or "handos" or even "fingos" be a better term for > handwritten mistakes as opposed to type-written mistakes?) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

At 12:44 AM 8/10/2008, you wrote: >From: "J. Eggers" <msgene@mac.com> >Subject: [BW] Searching for SCHLAGETER >To: Baden Wurttemberg <baden-wurttemberg@rootsweb.com> >... >He applied for her at the "Grossherzogl. Oberamt" to leave the Baden >nationality. >... I assume you understand that "Grossherzogl" means Grand Duchy and "Oberamt" is equivalent to a local county seat. >J. Eggers >Msgene@mac.com ____________________________________________________________ Click here to find single Christians that want to meet you today. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/Ioyw6i4ub6PCvZXA2593WyIhwuG5sSOfVNIbCSOZYqEsyph1mSc7wI/

Judith, Your next step is to rent the film(s) and look for him. It seems clear from Fredericka's exit application that she was leaving Baden in order to marry Mathias. I doubt she was a mail-order catalog bride. It's likely he had met her before he left Baden and corresponded with her and she came when he was established (a condition required by honor or her family?). How was it that he had met her? He was from the same place or from very near the same place or he had done part of an apprenticeship in her town. If you don't find Mathias' baptism or confirmation entry in Gruenwettersbach, then we'll have to figure out if he was from someplace nearby. ShtetlSeeker lists 14 towns/villages within a 3 miles radius and 112 within 10 miles. Residents in the smaller places within a mile probably attended church in Gruenwettersbach so you'll pick that up with the book/film you'll start with. If we can't find him in a nearby town, we'll have to assume that a mutual aquaintance got them together. I can hear how it started. While hacking at a hanging half of skinned hog, Matt's co-worker says to him, "Why don't you write to my cousin Fredericka? She's very handy in the butcher shop and not all that bad to look at." Now some things you might find interesting about Gruenwettersbach: It looks like it is grouped with Karlsruhe for administrative purposes. Karlsruhe's website is: http://www.karlsruhe.de/ The various villages included at stadtteile (city parts) with Karlsruhe are listed at: http://www1.karlsruhe.de/Stadtteile/index.htm Your village's page within the Karlsruhe website is: http://www1.karlsruhe.de/Stadtteile/Wettersbach/index.htm Gruenwettersbach and Palmbach are grouped together and referred to as Wettersbach and it appears they have their own little website, the little rebels! See http://www.wettersbach.de/ But you won't find Wettersbach on any map. Here's a short history of Wettersbach (Gruenwettersbach and Palmbach): http://www1.karlsruhe.de/Stadtteile/Wettersbach/geschichte.htm If you can push your Lichtenberger (and Schlageter?) lines back to about 1700 in this area, get back to me and ask me to review the history on the above page and suggest how you should proceed. It looks like a large percentage of the inhabitants of this area came there in 1701 from deep in the Alps in northern Italy. They were Waldensians (Waldensen in German, Vaudois in French.) Northern Italy was Burgundy back then. Many Waldensians had fled their secluded mountain valleys in Burgundy when the Treaty of Nantes was suddenly revoked in 1685 and persecution against French protestants was agressively renewed. The refugees ended up in Switzerland and then were invited into many places in Baden, Wuerttemberg, the Palatinate etc. The village of Palmbach was established in 1701 by 28 of 35 Waldensian refugee families that came there. Palmbach's name is an evolution of the name La Balme which I think was the village they had fled. (According to the history on this page, La Balme meant Zuflucht which translates into English as retreat.) The other 7 families settled in Untermutschelbach which I can't find on any map but certainly is/was down the hill from nearby Mutschelbach. Over time, the Waldensians cetainly intermaried with the citizens of Gruenwettersbach so you may find some of Pierre Vaude's (Peter Waldo in English) followers in your family tree and you'll know to look for them in a place called La Balme in Burgundy (I theorize). To learn more about the Waldensians, google the word Waldensian (or Vaudois, or "Peter Waldo" and Lyon" etc). After the devastations of 150 years, including plagues, famines, the 30-Years war ending in 1648, and a nasty incursion and occupation (1690's) by France's Louis XIV's armies into Baden and Wuerttemberg, Gruenwettersbach was down to 30 inhabitants. (I may be fracturing this account a little since my German reading requires a dictionary which I'm not taking time to use on every word outside my vocabulary.). So, do the math and you'll see that many others must have been invited to immigrate to Gruenwettersbach in about 1700. At that time, the area was an enclave of Wuerttemberg in the midst of Baden. It was traded to Baden for one of Baden's enclaves in Wuerttemberg (no doubt) in 1806. I can picture the bargaining table: "OK. To summarize, we agree to swap Gruenwettersbach, Palmbach, and two villages to be named next year for Dorfidingen along with it's mortgage and the pesky cloister on the top of St. Allufingen on our mutual border near the frontier with the Canton of Zurich.") Where did the other, non-Waldensian invitees come from in 1701? (I am no longer getting this from the webpage sited but freestyling it.) Many were the Waldensians' fellow refugees and in much bigger numbers--Huguenots from France and Switzerland (as refugees from France) and Anabaptists who had left Switzerland and resided across the Rhine from Gruenwettersbach in the Alsace. They also came family by family from places where people were getting enough to eat, multiplying, and not getting a share (because of law/custom) of daddy's estate--German-speaking cantons in Switzerland, the Alsace, and to a lesser extent Bavaria and Austria. Now back to what I was originally going to tell you. In the SW Germany Emigration online Database, I see the records regarding Friederica Lichtenberger's emigration that you referred to in your first post. Here is what you can see online: Emigrant identification 150777 First name Friederike Last name Lichtenberger Emigration year 1851 Country of destination Nordamerika Last place of residence Karlsruhe Marital status verh. Age at emigration 20 Comments verheiratet mit Schlageter; gestorben; Continent Nordamerika County nicht zuweisbar Archive Generallandesarchiv Karlsruhe District Grünwettersbach Based on what you said, I'd guess she emigrated in 1851. When her father died shortly thereafter, someone did all of the legal work for her and was able to send her portion of the inheritance to her in 1854 when the request for emigration/legal work was finally completed. Alternately, after her father died, she applied and left in 1851, and the legal work was completed by another (an attorney or relative) and approved finally in 1854 when her money was sent to her. Here's someone you should dig around about. He's in the same emigration database. Emigrant identification 150774 First name Jakob Last name Lichtenberger Emigration year 1850 Country of destination Nordamerika Last place of residence Karlsruhe District Grünwettersbach Profession Schuhmacher Age at emigration 21 Continent Nordamerika County nicht zuweisbar Archive Generallandesarchiv Karlsruhe Jakob is likely a brother or a cousin to your Friederike. Keep an eye out for him in the U.S. Census records. Do you see him living near the Schlageters, for example? Back to Gruenwettersbach. It's postal code is 76228. Looking for Schlageters in the German phonebook that live in that postal code, I found zip. But looking for Lichtenbergers in the same, I found two: Name Address Postal Code City Phone Lichtenberger Erich Grünwettersbacher Str. 19 76228 Karlsruhe 0721 45 04 78 Lichtenberger Gunther Wingertgasse 12 76228 Karlsruhe 0721 45 08 25 Next time you're over there, given them a call. Using mapquest, I can see they are both right in the village of Gruenwettersbach. The first one, Erich, lives on the border of Gruenwettersbach and Palmbach. Regarding Schlageter possibly being from Gruenwettersbach, the phone book lists the following Schlageters in Karlsruhe: Name Address Postal Code City Phone Schlageter Am Eichelgarten 35 76199 Karlsruhe 0721 61 17 69 Schlageter Hans-Joachim Ernststr. 92 76131 Karlsruhe 0721 61 76 94 Schlageter Karl Trierer Str. 2 76187 Karlsruhe 0721 69 87 42 Schlageter Waldemar Ebertstr. 51 76135 Karlsruhe 0721 81 65 90 The first and last postal codes are within 3 and 5 miles respectively of Gruenwettersbach. The other two are within 10 miles. Several people on this list have recently had luck by emailing the village in question. If you don't speak German, write it in English. Keep it short and to one question. I couldn't find an email address for you but there is an email form at: http://www.karlsruhe.de/kontakt/webmail.de?dst=OVWe I took the liberty to pretend I was you and I wrote the following message: "Hi, My great great grandfather Mathias Schlageter was born in 1825 in Baden and emigrated to America in about 1847/49. Friederike/Friederica Lichtenberger was born in Gruenwettersbach in about 1831 and emigrated to America in 1851 in order to marry Mathias Schlageter. Do your old records show that Mathias Schlageter, the son of Anton Schlageter, was born or ever lived in Wettersbach? Thanks for your help. Mrs. Eggers in the United States" I put your email address as the return so you might get an answer in a few days. I'd love to see what they say. Good luck. Paul +++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Judith Eggers <msgene@mac.com> To: Paul Rands <paulrands@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [BW] Searching for SCHLAGETER Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 22:51:24 -0400 Hi Paul, I am looking for the origins and family of Mathias Schlageter. He can be accounted for from the 1860 Federal census until he is buried in 1899. He and Fredericka lived in NYC as did all the children. have no idea where he came from, when he came to the US. I can surmise that it is his immigration papers from New Orleans but there is no way to be sure as there is no age or birth place. I have been able to trace Fredericka's brother to Ohio. Her emigration is documented. I do have access to the rental of LDS films. I have not done that as of yet. I live in NJ so my search is for German records and ancestry. All his descendants are accounted for. He is my GG Grandfather. Thanks for the comments and food for thought. Judy in NJ

Hi Kathleen, If you have printed information off a website, such as ancestry.com, a film will not give you much more. There is a lot of information that you can print from websites without ordering microfilm.I was able to print off the ship's manifest showing my husband's great grandfather and his family. You have to order the films when you are ready to start searching in Germany. Tonia On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 9:54 PM, Kathleen March < Kathleen_March@umit.maine.edu> wrote: > I hope not to impose too much on the good will of the group by asking yet > another simple question: > > I can locate ancestors and the films of various sorts, but it is not clear > to me whether the films offer more information than what I already have. > eg, I have the following, for a gguncle, whom I have also found as a major > in the Civil War (this is > one of 3 young children who arrived in 1854 with their parents): > > Name: Fred March > Residence: Rochester, Monroe, New York > Birth date: 1851 > Birth place: Germany > Relationship to head-of-household: Other > Spouse name: > Spouse birth place: > Father name: > Father birth place: Germany > Mother name: > Mother birth place: Germany > Race or color (expanded): White > Ethnicity: American > Gender: Male > Marital status: Single > Age: 29 years > Occupation: Bar Tender > NARA film number: T9-0863 > Page: 159 > Page letter: A > Entry number: 14 > Film number: 1254863 > Collection: 1880 United States Census > > > > Would it do any good to order a film? The same question goes for > requesting the films for ship passenger lists. If I have already found the > image online, does the film add anything to it? > > > > > Kathleen March > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > BADEN-WURTTEMBERG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I hope not to impose too much on the good will of the group by asking yet another simple question: I can locate ancestors and the films of various sorts, but it is not clear to me whether the films offer more information than what I already have. eg, I have the following, for a gguncle, whom I have also found as a major in the Civil War (this is one of 3 young children who arrived in 1854 with their parents): Name: Fred March Residence: Rochester, Monroe, New York Birth date: 1851 Birth place: Germany Relationship to head-of-household: Other Spouse name: Spouse birth place: Father name: Father birth place: Germany Mother name: Mother birth place: Germany Race or color (expanded): White Ethnicity: American Gender: Male Marital status: Single Age: 29 years Occupation: Bar Tender NARA film number: T9-0863 Page: 159 Page letter: A Entry number: 14 Film number: 1254863 Collection: 1880 United States Census Would it do any good to order a film? The same question goes for requesting the films for ship passenger lists. If I have already found the image online, does the film add anything to it? Kathleen March

I'm thinking there might be some pennies worth stooping for in the answers to the questions below--possibly another technique to add to our quivers. Liebe Geschwister, When looking for and at microfilms, I've often seen the term Kirchenbuchduplikat, films of which are often available along side the Kirchenbuch film or as the only film. I've not paid much attention and have used the duplikats interchangeably with the Kirchenbuch. Without thinking much about it, I've assumed it was a second microfilming of the Kirchenbuch. Today, it struck me that I'm wrong on this assumption. I can guess what a Kirchenbuch is, but then I wouldn't know if my guess is correct. Can list members tell me: 1) What is a Kirchenbuchduplicat? 2) In Germany, are old Kirchenbuchduplicats archived in the same place with the Kirchbuchen? If not, then where? 3) Are the Kirchenbuchduplicats the records that town archivists/officials typically look at when they answer emails about our ancestors and which roots tourists sometimes get to peruse when showing up at city hall? 4) What advantages/disadvantages do Kirchenbuchduplicats have compared to the Kirchenbuch? 5) Is there ever a situation when both might be worth looking at instead of just one of them? 6) What experiences have list members had with Kirchenbuchduplicaten (pl?) that shed light on my questions? What I'm getting at by question #5: If a Kirchenbuchduplicat is a later, handwritten copy of the original, besides allowing typos* and omissions to enter into the record, might there also be some additions (a cross and a death date, an emigration date and destination, as examples), clarifications or interpretations added by the person doing the copying? Might the copier also have a more modern handwriting style and/or write clearer and might the page/ink be in better shape? But I'm suggesting answers to my own question. The answers to these questions might provide another way to break through on a difficult-to-read entry that is holding up one's research. Here is the example from the LDS FHL online catalog of microfilm: Topic Germany, Baden, Grünwettersbach - Church records Titles Kirchenbuch, 1649-1963 Evangelische Kirche Grünwettersbach (A. Durlach) Kirchenbuchduplikat, 1800-1869 Evangelische Kirche Grünwettersbach (A. Durlach) Thanks in advance, Paul in Portland, Oregon area where we've had a cool, rainless, summer day. I'm glad we don't get more of these because everyone would be trying to move here and it wouldn't be so nice with four or five times the existing population. Members on the list are always welcome to move here, of course. * Would "manos" or "handos" or even "fingos" be a better term for handwritten mistakes as opposed to type-written mistakes?)

Hi J., You wrote: "I am searching for a Mathias Schlageter." AND "Any assistance in finding information on the family of Mathias Schlageter will be helpful." Me: It looks to me like you've already found him. You've supplied wonderful information but it's unclear what you are asking for. Are you a resident of Grunwettersbach and searching for what happened to Mathias and Fredericka after they left Baden? Is this a U.S. genealogy question? (Don't worry, I'm not suggesting you go elsewhere to ask.) Do you want help with pushing your Schlageter line back to previous generations or forward to his descendents? You: Based on Fredericka's emigration information, it is possible that he also was from Grüewettersbach. Me: Have you gone through the Lutheran parish books for Gruenwettersbach to find out? LDS FHL have several options that will get you the data you wish. If you're not familiar with how to search online for the LDS microfilms to rent, let us know. If you're in Europe, you may not have the same access to these films via a FHC like we have in North America. I suspect there are members of this list who will know the access restrictions if you are in Germany and want to see these films. If you're in Gruenwetterbach, you probably know you can go to the town's archives and see a film or somekind of copy of the books right there. I'm sure I speak for many that we're anxious to help when you've clarified where you are and what exactly you're hoping to achieve by your query. BTW, you've done a great job listing what you know about Mathias, much more than we usually get. Thanks for that. Regards, Paul

I have just finished reviewing a collection of microfilms of Catholic church records from the town of Aalen in eastern Wurttemberg. All of the records were completed on pre-printed forms. Does anyone know if those forms in blank are available online anywhere? For instance, the U.S. census records on Ancestry will let you see a blank form used by the census takers for the various census years. It would certainly be useful to have the forms in a more readable version as you are reading the completed records. I've tried googling to no avail. Eric Schaal, Burr Ridge, Illinois