Nick As you George Dalrmple is not landed that makes it a little harder and you can't look at George Robertson's books or James Patterson's book outlining landed Ayrshire families. 1. For the birth of the six children at Dumfries House, have you looked at the Old Parish Register records? Either at Scotlandspeople website or else where? And does that tell you if he was still living at Dumfries House? 2. I think a few years ago, I saw a TV program saying that Prince Charles's Prices Trust had restored Dumfries House into a working tourist site and to help un-employed youth in the area. So I am not sure if you need to search for them on google, to see if they have any "records" [Although you might be able to tell then who the cook was for a period], or contact the Burns Centre Local Studies Library in Kilmarnock (sorry do not have an Email address) to see if they have any suitable records for this period of Dumfries House or if he became an Innkeeper at Old Cumnock. 3. For the Edinburgh side, I assume that you have a lot on then after they moved there. But being an innkeeper or vintner, he may have had to join "The Guild". So would it be worth contacting the Edinburgh City Library at King George IV Bridge Street to see if they might list him and give you a pointer as to when he died, and was buried, etc. Mike Boyd Brisbane, Aust -----Original Message----- From: Nicholas Wilson Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2018 5:23 AM To: ayrshire@rootsweb.com Subject: [AYR] GEORGE DALRYMPLE, born c.1740, of Old Cumnock Hello, I am new to list and in search of information on the above named 4 x great grandfather. So far all I know is George married MARY GEMMEL in Old Cumnock on October 25th 1763 at which time he was shown as being the cook at the newly built Dumfries House. Two years later when their first child was born he was still shown in the same position. George and Mary had seven children. The first six including twins, George and John, were born in Old Cumnock and their last, Robert, after they had moved to Edinburgh. After moving to Edinburgh George’s employment is shown as that of vintner though I have not been able to establish if he was also in the same business before leaving Old Cumnock. I have assumed he left Dumfries House and his job as cook, when his family started to grow and his accommodation was found inadequate for raising a family. After this time he is merely shown in the records as an ‘indweller’. I do not have a record of his date of birth but would estimate it was c.1740, nor his date of death. My Dalrymple grandmother never outrightly claimed kinship to the illustrious and titled line but would occasionally pun that if there was a connection, it would have been by the ‘back-STAIRs’, i.e. illegitimate. Having only very recently discovered my ancestor’s connection as a servant in one of the Stair family homes, I am beginning to believe she may have been right! Thanks for any help you can give me in finding out more of this my first known Dalrymple ancestor. Our own particular line is now extinct because my great uncle Henry Dalrymple, who ended his days in the New Hebrides as a remittance man, is not known to have had any children by his native wife, Puna Nick _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ You are receiving this email because you have registered with RootsWeb Mailing Lists. Manage your email preferences at: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/accounts/subscriptions/ To unsubscribe send an email to mailto:ayrshire-leave@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe&body=unsubscribe View the archives for this list at: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/ayrshire@rootsweb.com/ Your privacy is important to us. View our Privacy Statement at https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/privacystatement for more information. Use of RootsWeb is subject to our Terms and Conditions https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/termsandconditions RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Hello, I am new to list and in search of information on the above named 4 x great grandfather. So far all I know is George married MARY GEMMEL in Old Cumnock on October 25th 1763 at which time he was shown as being the cook at the newly built Dumfries House. Two years later when their first child was born he was still shown in the same position. George and Mary had seven children. The first six including twins, George and John, were born in Old Cumnock and their last, Robert, after they had moved to Edinburgh. After moving to Edinburgh George’s employment is shown as that of vintner though I have not been able to establish if he was also in the same business before leaving Old Cumnock. I have assumed he left Dumfries House and his job as cook, when his family started to grow and his accommodation was found inadequate for raising a family. After this time he is merely shown in the records as an ‘indweller’. I do not have a record of his date of birth but would estimate it was c.1740, nor his date of death. My Dalrymple grandmother never outrightly claimed kinship to the illustrious and titled line but would occasionally pun that if there was a connection, it would have been by the ‘back-STAIRs’, i.e. illegitimate. Having only very recently discovered my ancestor’s connection as a servant in one of the Stair family homes, I am beginning to believe she may have been right! Thanks for any help you can give me in finding out more of this my first known Dalrymple ancestor. Our own particular line is now extinct because my great uncle Henry Dalrymple, who ended his days in the New Hebrides as a remittance man, is not known to have had any children by his native wife, Puna Nick

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Thank you Elizabeth, will add that to the mix it all helps Margaret -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Russon Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2018 2:19 PM To: ayrshire@rootsweb.com Subject: [AYR] Re: AYRSHIRE Digest, Vol 13, Issue 35 Torrance, McNeill ,Mackie (The Pools) Hi there,My uncle by marriage David Kerr Mackie's father was Torrence Mackie. He married Ella Stevenson in Glasgow. His brother James may have married a Janet P. Torrence which is how the name came into the family. I haven't really researched beyond that. Elizabeth ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 16:21:52 +1200 From: "The Pools" <p.ml.pool@xtra.co.nz> Subject: [AYR] Torrance, McNeill ,Mackie To: "Aryshire roots" <ayrshire@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <060C2BA409404F6F93C015CF430560AB@Margaret> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Good to have the mailing lists back again. Wondering if anyone has connections with these families. William Torrance b1861 Kilmarnock, father Robert Torrance, mother Janet Mackie, marr 1894 Jeanie Mackie McNeill b c1870 dau of William McNeill and Agnes?Agatha? Hall. Children I have found so far James, Jessie Kenneth Montgomerie, Agnes Gebbie, Janet Mackie, Mary Hall. Have found information in British Columbia Canada for Janet Mackie Torrance marr James William McDonald and Mary Hall Torrance marr Herbert George Delamont . Their father William Torrance died 1942 Vancouver. Am especially interested to see if there is a relationship between Williams mother Janet Mackie and his wife Jeanie Mackie McNeill. Many thanks Margaret _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ You are receiving this email because you have registered with RootsWeb Mailing Lists. Manage your email preferences at: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/accounts/subscriptions/ To unsubscribe send an email to mailto:ayrshire-leave@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe&body=unsubscribe View the archives for this list at: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/ayrshire@rootsweb.com/ Your privacy is important to us. View our Privacy Statement at https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/privacystatement for more information. Use of RootsWeb is subject to our Terms and Conditions https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/termsandconditions RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Torrance, McNeill ,Mackie (The Pools) Hi there,My uncle by marriage David Kerr Mackie's father was Torrence Mackie.  He married Ella Stevenson in Glasgow.  His brother James may have married a Janet P. Torrence which is how the name came into the family. I haven't really researched beyond that. Elizabeth ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 16:21:52 +1200 From: "The Pools" <p.ml.pool@xtra.co.nz> Subject: [AYR] Torrance, McNeill ,Mackie To: "Aryshire roots" <ayrshire@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <060C2BA409404F6F93C015CF430560AB@Margaret> Content-Type: text/plain;      charset="iso-8859-1" Good to have the mailing lists back again. Wondering if anyone has connections with these families.    William Torrance b1861 Kilmarnock, father Robert Torrance, mother Janet Mackie, marr 1894 Jeanie Mackie McNeill b c1870 dau of William McNeill and Agnes?Agatha? Hall. Children I have found so far James, Jessie Kenneth Montgomerie, Agnes Gebbie, Janet Mackie, Mary Hall. Have found information in British Columbia Canada for Janet Mackie Torrance marr James William McDonald and Mary Hall Torrance marr Herbert George Delamont . Their father William Torrance died 1942 Vancouver. Am especially interested to see if there is a relationship between Williams mother Janet Mackie and his wife Jeanie Mackie McNeill. Many thanks Margaret

Hi Margaret, In the 1881 census, enumerated at 4 Loudoun St., Irvine (Dundonald Parish, 595/07, p. 15, enumeration #94), was one Jane Hall, widow, age 76, born Irvine. In her household were: Mary Hall, daughter, unmarried, age 40, dressmaker, born Irvine. Jeanie McNeil, granddaughter, age 13, scholar, born Irvine. William McNeil married Martha Dickie Hall in Irvine on 29 Jan 1867. They had a daughter Jane Mackie McNeil born in Irvine on 11 Dec 1867. I know nothing about the husband, but Martha was baptised on 27 Feb 1839 in the Relief Congregation, Irvine, on 27 Feb 1839, the daughter of Charles Hall and Jean Mackie. Charles Hall & Jean Mackie married in Dundonald parish on 23 Jan 1833, and had, in addition to Martha, Mary baptised 22 Mar 1836, and Jean baptised 6 Oct 1841, both in the Relief Congregation records in Irvine. Jean (Mackie) Hall can be found in the 1861 & 1881 census returns in Irvine. In 1861 she's a wife, in 1881 she is a widow. Hope this helps some... my research is focused on the Halls (and Mackies of Lanark). This isn't my line, but I do make a point to "collect" all the Halls I run across. Cheers! Bobbie (Madison) Hall On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 12:21 AM, The Pools <p.ml.pool@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > Good to have the mailing lists back again. > > Wondering if anyone has connections with these families. William > Torrance b1861 Kilmarnock, father Robert Torrance, mother Janet Mackie, > > marr 1894 Jeanie Mackie McNeill b c1870 dau of William McNeill and > Agnes?Agatha? Hall. Children I have found so far > > James, Jessie Kenneth Montgomerie, Agnes Gebbie, Janet Mackie, Mary Hall. > > Have found information in British Columbia Canada for Janet Mackie > Torrance marr James William McDonald and Mary Hall Torrance marr Herbert > George Delamont . > > Their father William Torrance died 1942 Vancouver. > > Am especially interested to see if there is a relationship between > Williams mother Janet Mackie and his wife Jeanie Mackie McNeill. > > Many thanks > > Margaret > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > You are receiving this email because you have registered with RootsWeb > Mailing Lists. Manage your email preferences at: https://lists.rootsweb. > ancestry.com/postorius/accounts/subscriptions/ > > To unsubscribe send an email to mailto:ayrshire-leave@rootsweb.com > ?subject=unsubscribe&body=unsubscribe > > View the archives for this list at: https://lists.rootsweb. > ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/ayrshire@rootsweb.com/ > > Your privacy is important to us. View our Privacy Statement at > https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/privacystatement for more information. > Use of RootsWeb is subject to our Terms and Conditions > https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/termsandconditions > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community >

Hi Margaret, I am interested in both McNeills and Mackie/McKays in Ayrshire but can't think clearly tonight. I will have a look tomorrow if I get a chance. Cheers, Mary William Torrance b1861 Kilmarnock, father Robert Torrance, mother Janet > Mackie, > > marr 1894 Jeanie Mackie McNeill b c1870 dau of William McNeill and > Agnes?Agatha? Hall. Children I have found so far > > James, Jessie Kenneth Montgomerie, Agnes Gebbie, Janet Mackie, Mary Hall. > > Have found information in British Columbia Canada for Janet Mackie > Torrance marr James William McDonald and Mary Hall Torrance marr Herbert > George Delamont . > > Am especially interested to see if there is a relationship between > Williams mother Janet Mackie and his wife Jeanie Mackie McNeill. > > >

Good to have the mailing lists back again. Wondering if anyone has connections with these families. William Torrance b1861 Kilmarnock, father Robert Torrance, mother Janet Mackie, marr 1894 Jeanie Mackie McNeill b c1870 dau of William McNeill and Agnes?Agatha? Hall. Children I have found so far James, Jessie Kenneth Montgomerie, Agnes Gebbie, Janet Mackie, Mary Hall. Have found information in British Columbia Canada for Janet Mackie Torrance marr James William McDonald and Mary Hall Torrance marr Herbert George Delamont . Their father William Torrance died 1942 Vancouver. Am especially interested to see if there is a relationship between Williams mother Janet Mackie and his wife Jeanie Mackie McNeill. Many thanks Margaret

Hi Loretta, I tested 10 years back with FTDNA. No actual matches yet, but lots of so-called matches - at genetic distance 2 for 25 markers and DG 7 for 67 markers. I'm R-M269, which is rather common. The way I see it, the chances of a true match depend so much on how many folk have tested, which although now in the millions, is a small sample of the population. I thought about that before deciding to test, but didn't want to die wondering. I've also pondered how analyses of geographic background may be biased by the dominance of income level, (hence location), on the spread of those taking the test. If I look at my own 'Ancestral Origins' at GD 7 for 67 markers, there are: 19 Irish, 2 Ulster, and 6 Scots. (Ratio 3.2 Irish:Scots, Ulster omitted due to small sample size) If I look at the Ancestral origins from the 2010 USA census, the corresponding figures are: 35.5 million Irish, 5.1 million Ulster, and 5.7 million Scots (Ratio 6.2 Irish to Scots) As a large proportion of those tested are Americans, I figure that the bias toward Irish on my own figures, may well have been exaggerated by sample bias. (Hope you follow my logic) History has it that there are very blurred lines between the Irish and Scots, so my male line could well have been Irish. The blurring is even more so with Ulster. From my research, I can only be certain of my male line back to late 1700s in Wigtownshire, Scotland. When I say certain, that brings up another complication I see with genealogy and DNA test interpretation, and that is cases of the actual daddy not being the daddy on the paperwork. I figure that the more generations one traces back, the higher the probability that one's line has been invalidated in this way. As you are obviously much more knowledgeable on DNA test interpretation, I wonder if you would like to comment on any of these concerns? Regards, Bruce McDowall On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 7:48 AM, LORETTA LAYMAN <lynneage@comcast.net> wrote: > Hi Mike. One thing I can tell you with certainty is that any Boyd who is > R-U198 is definitely not of Gaelic origin. I manage a FamilyTreeDNA project > that includes a number of R-U198 men and am familiar with R-U198. A > discussion in FTDNA's project for the R-U198 haplogroup states, among other > things ... > > * "We come across R-U198 quite often in men whose ancestry is English, > Lowland-Scots or Ulster-Scots, Flemish, Dutch or German (particularly from > the Rhine Valley)." > > * "Well-sampled populations where we do not tend to find much R-U198 > include Gaelic Irish, Highland Scots and Scandinavians although of course > it has spread a lot over the millennia and might occur anywhere." This > point means that any occurrence of R-U198 among those three particular > populations is a relatively recent development due to migrations. > > In addition, FTDNA's Boyd project includes men from several totally > unrelated Y-DNA haplogroups. The two main ones are R-U198 and A1b1b2b, > which haven't shared a common direct male ancestor in many millennia. Thus, > they do have totally separate genealogical origins. > > On the historical side, there are two things a lot of folks don't realize > ... > > * William the Conqueror brought to Britain not only his own Norman army > but also troops from Flanders (his wife being Princess Matilda of Flanders) > and troops from elsewhere in France. > > * In addition, not all Normans have Scandinavian ancestry. When the > Vikings came to France, they did not displace the native population, nor > did all the natives intermarry with Vikings. That would be why R-U198 is > uncommon among Scandinavians. > > I hope this is some help. > > Loretta (Lynn) Layman > > > On March 31, 2018 at 5:26 PM Mike Boyd <mikejboyd@bigpond.com> wrote: > > > > > > The Boyds are Norman and not Gaelic. > > > > > > > > Many modern people believe that the Boyds are Gaelic in origins but that > is incorrect. They are Norman, just like the Stewarts who were their half > brother. > > > > > > > > Most Boyds believe that they stem from a single person - Simon. I am not > quite sure if this is borne out with the Boyd DNA results that are > currently available, where people talk about their RU–198 and an M ??? > number results. Nor have I learnt enough about DNA to know what time period > these results apply to. Or if some of these changes have occurred after the > 1100’s. > > > > > > > > But Mr. J.H. Round, see his paper on the origin of the Stewarts in the > Genealogists, N.S., xviii. 13 – (Where N.S. is New Series), says that Simon > is the son of Aveline de Hesdin, dau of Ernulf de Hesdin, from her second > marriage to Robert Fitz Walter, Sheriff of Norfolk, which was also his > second marriage. This Robert had two sons, by his first marriage, which > followed him as Sheriff’s of Norfolk. Round said that Robert Fitz Walter > was living in 1136 but had died about 1146. > > > > > > > > While in The Scots Peerage, Vol. V, p137, ed. Sir James Balfour Paul, > 1907, it says “Sir Robert Boyd, said to have been so called from the Celtic > Boidh, signifying fair or yellow.” So this use of this Gaelic word may have > lead to this belief that the Boyds were Gaelic rather than Norman. > > > > > > > > A second area of confusion, that the Boyd name is Gaelic stems from the > word Boidh. I think that Boidh is also the word for “Bute” the island in > the Clyde River. A number of old writers have said the Boyds came from the > island of Bute. Bute was not freed from Viking rule until 1263, after the > Battle of Largs, so I would be very surprised if the descendants of the > half brother of Walter, the High Stewart of Scotland would have been living > in lands not controlled by the Scottish King. > > > > > > > > In 2018, it has not yet been learnt way this son of a Norman Sheriff, > would not have used the normal naming pattern of being Simon Fitz Robert, > but instead have used Boyd or Boidh. > > > > > > > > Although we know that the next four generations after Simon were all > called (Sir) Robert Boyd. So was this done to honour Simon’s father Robert > Fitz Walter? The other strange think is that none of the Clan Boyd Chiefs > were ever called Simon or Ernulf. > > > > > > > > I am uncertain as to what our DNA results are in terms of saying if Clan > Boyd is Gaelic in origin or not, but is Norman. > > > > > > > > Mike Boyd > > > > Chairman > > > > Historical Committee > > > > House of Boyd Society > > > > > > > > PS > > > > It would seem that many of the families of Ayrshire would also appear to > be Norman in origin, perhaps with the exception of the Kennedy’s. > > > > > > >

Hi Mike. One thing I can tell you with certainty is that any Boyd who is R-U198 is definitely not of Gaelic origin. I manage a FamilyTreeDNA project that includes a number of R-U198 men and am familiar with R-U198. A discussion in FTDNA's project for the R-U198 haplogroup states, among other things ... * "We come across R-U198 quite often in men whose ancestry is English, Lowland-Scots or Ulster-Scots, Flemish, Dutch or German (particularly from the Rhine Valley)." * "Well-sampled populations where we do not tend to find much R-U198 include Gaelic Irish, Highland Scots and Scandinavians although of course it has spread a lot over the millennia and might occur anywhere." This point means that any occurrence of R-U198 among those three particular populations is a relatively recent development due to migrations. In addition, FTDNA's Boyd project includes men from several totally unrelated Y-DNA haplogroups. The two main ones are R-U198 and A1b1b2b, which haven't shared a common direct male ancestor in many millennia. Thus, they do have totally separate genealogical origins. On the historical side, there are two things a lot of folks don't realize ... * William the Conqueror brought to Britain not only his own Norman army but also troops from Flanders (his wife being Princess Matilda of Flanders) and troops from elsewhere in France. * In addition, not all Normans have Scandinavian ancestry. When the Vikings came to France, they did not displace the native population, nor did all the natives intermarry with Vikings. That would be why R-U198 is uncommon among Scandinavians. I hope this is some help. Loretta (Lynn) Layman > On March 31, 2018 at 5:26 PM Mike Boyd <mikejboyd@bigpond.com> wrote: > > > The Boyds are Norman and not Gaelic. > > > > Many modern people believe that the Boyds are Gaelic in origins but that is incorrect. They are Norman, just like the Stewarts who were their half brother. > > > > Most Boyds believe that they stem from a single person - Simon. I am not quite sure if this is borne out with the Boyd DNA results that are currently available, where people talk about their RU–198 and an M ??? number results. Nor have I learnt enough about DNA to know what time period these results apply to. Or if some of these changes have occurred after the 1100’s. > > > > But Mr. J.H. Round, see his paper on the origin of the Stewarts in the Genealogists, N.S., xviii. 13 – (Where N.S. is New Series), says that Simon is the son of Aveline de Hesdin, dau of Ernulf de Hesdin, from her second marriage to Robert Fitz Walter, Sheriff of Norfolk, which was also his second marriage. This Robert had two sons, by his first marriage, which followed him as Sheriff’s of Norfolk. Round said that Robert Fitz Walter was living in 1136 but had died about 1146. > > > > While in The Scots Peerage, Vol. V, p137, ed. Sir James Balfour Paul, 1907, it says “Sir Robert Boyd, said to have been so called from the Celtic Boidh, signifying fair or yellow.” So this use of this Gaelic word may have lead to this belief that the Boyds were Gaelic rather than Norman. > > > > A second area of confusion, that the Boyd name is Gaelic stems from the word Boidh. I think that Boidh is also the word for “Bute” the island in the Clyde River. A number of old writers have said the Boyds came from the island of Bute. Bute was not freed from Viking rule until 1263, after the Battle of Largs, so I would be very surprised if the descendants of the half brother of Walter, the High Stewart of Scotland would have been living in lands not controlled by the Scottish King. > > > > In 2018, it has not yet been learnt way this son of a Norman Sheriff, would not have used the normal naming pattern of being Simon Fitz Robert, but instead have used Boyd or Boidh. > > > > Although we know that the next four generations after Simon were all called (Sir) Robert Boyd. So was this done to honour Simon’s father Robert Fitz Walter? The other strange think is that none of the Clan Boyd Chiefs were ever called Simon or Ernulf. > > > > I am uncertain as to what our DNA results are in terms of saying if Clan Boyd is Gaelic in origin or not, but is Norman. > > > > Mike Boyd > > Chairman > > Historical Committee > > House of Boyd Society > > > > PS > > It would seem that many of the families of Ayrshire would also appear to be Norman in origin, perhaps with the exception of the Kennedy’s. > >

The Boyds are Norman and not Gaelic. Many modern people believe that the Boyds are Gaelic in origins but that is incorrect. They are Norman, just like the Stewarts who were their half brother. Most Boyds believe that they stem from a single person - Simon. I am not quite sure if this is borne out with the Boyd DNA results that are currently available, where people talk about their RU–198 and an M ??? number results. Nor have I learnt enough about DNA to know what time period these results apply to. Or if some of these changes have occurred after the 1100’s. But Mr. J.H. Round, see his paper on the origin of the Stewarts in the Genealogists, N.S., xviii. 13 – (Where N.S. is New Series), says that Simon is the son of Aveline de Hesdin, dau of Ernulf de Hesdin, from her second marriage to Robert Fitz Walter, Sheriff of Norfolk, which was also his second marriage. This Robert had two sons, by his first marriage, which followed him as Sheriff’s of Norfolk. Round said that Robert Fitz Walter was living in 1136 but had died about 1146. While in The Scots Peerage, Vol. V, p137, ed. Sir James Balfour Paul, 1907, it says “Sir Robert Boyd, said to have been so called from the Celtic Boidh, signifying fair or yellow.” So this use of this Gaelic word may have lead to this belief that the Boyds were Gaelic rather than Norman. A second area of confusion, that the Boyd name is Gaelic stems from the word Boidh. I think that Boidh is also the word for “Bute” the island in the Clyde River. A number of old writers have said the Boyds came from the island of Bute. Bute was not freed from Viking rule until 1263, after the Battle of Largs, so I would be very surprised if the descendants of the half brother of Walter, the High Stewart of Scotland would have been living in lands not controlled by the Scottish King. In 2018, it has not yet been learnt way this son of a Norman Sheriff, would not have used the normal naming pattern of being Simon Fitz Robert, but instead have used Boyd or Boidh. Although we know that the next four generations after Simon were all called (Sir) Robert Boyd. So was this done to honour Simon’s father Robert Fitz Walter? The other strange think is that none of the Clan Boyd Chiefs were ever called Simon or Ernulf. I am uncertain as to what our DNA results are in terms of saying if Clan Boyd is Gaelic in origin or not, but is Norman. Mike Boyd Chairman Historical Committee House of Boyd Society PS It would seem that many of the families of Ayrshire would also appear to be Norman in origin, perhaps with the exception of the Kennedy’s.

Hi Jocelyn I have an Old Ordnance Survey Map of Kilmarnock, dated 1895. On the back of the sheet it has various businesses and I see at No 2 and 6 King Street; D and Co Brown, Booksellers and Stationers. My Campbell family lived at Bonnyton Square in the late 1860's to mid 1880's. My gg uncle was a Clerk at the Rail works. Apparently the houses in Bonnyton Square were owned by the railways and had been demolished by the 1950's Cheers Chris Australia -------------------------------------------------- From: "Margaret Rome" <msr@portal.ca> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2018 2:38 PM To: <ayrshire@rootsweb.com> Subject: [AYR] King Street, Kilmarnock > Hi Jocelyn, > Some of my ancestors lived in Kilmarnock and I’ve been reading about the > town prior to WWI. I did a quick search for King Street using some of the > sources I’ve found helpful. Also, I have some old books about Kilmarnock > and I will check for information on King Street. > > The Dick Institute in Kilmarnock has the largest museum and the East > Ayrshire central library. If they can’t help you perhaps they can suggest > another source. > > Good luck with your search. > > Margaret > > > Town Plans of Kilmarnock – the 1868 map was printed by James McKie > https://maps.nls.uk/towns/#kilmarnock > > King Street near The Cross and Regent Street (1857) > http://maps.nls.uk/view/74416041 > > More information about King Street > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Street,_Kilmarnock > > Ramble Round Kilmarnock – Chapter 1 > http://www.electricscotland.com/history/kilmarnock/part1c1.htm > > Several old photos of King Street here > http://www.ayrshirehistory.com/kilmarnock_king_street.html > > Kilmarnock Post Office Directory (1868) – page 50 > http://deriv.nls.uk/dcn23/8653/86537386.23.pdf > > M’Kie, James printer, bookbinder, bookseller, stationer, and news agent > 2 and 6 King Street; house Alpha Cottage (West) > > Alpha Cottage: A Commodious Dwelling House beautifully Situated in Park > Lane. Consists of two tenements, three Storeys high, Slated and in good > repair, Mr. J. McKie proprietor. > I think the name of the street has changed. Not able to find a Park Lane > in Kilmarnock now. Might be Howard Park Road these days. > > Video featuring old photos of Kilmarnock. At the 1:26 mark and at 2:51 > there are images of a building on King Street where it met The Cross. > Could this be the spot you are looking for? > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tFn3SZOYsY&list=RD7tFn3SZOYsY&t=20 > >

For Jocelyn who was seeking information about the shop at #2 King Street, Kilmarnock... The following was taken from a book titled Old Kilmarnock – Sketches of Character by James Walker. It was published in Ardrossan by Arthur Guthrie & Sons and in Kilmarnock by D. Brown & Co. Printed in Ardrossan. The preface is dated Oct., 1895 and the photograph of the author shows a distinguished looking man, possibly in his 60s, with white hair and beard. Unfortunately, the book does not contain an index and if there is additional information about the shop at #2 King Street I have not yet found it. King Street was developed in 1804. Here is a link to a digital version of the town plan of Kilmarnock 1857 http://maps.nls.uk/view/74416041 The location of the shop was at the corner or angle where King Street met Waterloo Street. Hope this adds a bit to your family history. Margaret The following was taken from chapter 1 – The Cross 60 Years Ago. Mr. Walker also reminisces about times and character before and after that time. Passing over to the shop forming the angle between King Street and Waterloo Street, I remark that this is one of the few shops in the vicinity of the Cross in which the same business is carried on to-day as was a hundred years ago. Sixty years since it was occupied by Hugh Crawford & Son, booksellers, printers and publishers. The elder Crawford was the immediate successor of John Wilson (“Wee Johnny”), who had the honour of giving to the world the first edition of the works of Burns, an honour which he did not appreciate, for, it would appear that he had certain scruples and misgivings concerning the success of the undertaking. He had neither an eye to see, nor a soul to appreciate, the beauty and the worth of these wonderful works, destined to live while the Scotch language is spoken, and which to-day thrill and warm the hearts of Scotland’s sons wherever they may be found. If John Wilson did not see the superlative excellence of the works of Burns, the poet, with his deeply penetrating eye that nothing escaped, saw with contempt the smallness and the meanness of Wilson, otherwise he had never written that satirical epitaph - “Whoe’er thou art, O reader, know That Death has murdered Johnny, And here his body lies fu’ low, For soul he ne’er had ony.” The shop in which the poet must have frequently been in, arranging for the publication of his works, was partly taken down at the time that King Street was formed, and the present more modern building erected in its stead. John Wilson retired from business towards the end of the last, or about the beginning of the present century, and was succeeded by Hugh Crawford; and between father and son the business was carried on with great success for upwards of fifty years. From this establishment the Kilmarnock Journal was issued for more than twenty years. I can recall more than one of its early editors, especially Mr. Beaton, who was a fruff, thick-necked, dark-visaged, heavy-made man, whose look did not indicate much intellectual power, but, nevertheless, he could write trenchant articles. He was editor during the height of the Voluntary controversy. Being Erastian in church matters, and in politics a staunch Tory, he launched many a severe philippie against Voluntaryism and Radicalism in those distant days. The younger Crawford in physique was a thin, spare man, quiet, and unobtrusive in his manner, but highly intellectual in his tastes and pursuits. He not only made and sold books, but he read them. He did much to foster and encourage literary tastes in others, and the youth of the town a that time were much indebted to him in this respect. At his death he left the books composing his private library, together with a sum of money, to the Kilmarnock Library, for which munificent gifts the directors, to perpetuate his memory, got his portrait painted, which to-day adorns the wall of the Library room. Mr. Crawford retired from business more than forty years ago, and was succeeded by Mr. James M’Kie. Mr. M’Kie, however, some time afterwards removed to that shop next to the now defunct Black Bull Hotel, which used to be in Portland Street, prior to Provost Donald purchasing the premises and those adjoining. The shop to which Mr. M’Kie went was long occupied by Mr. Thomson, jeweller. Mr. M’Kie was succedded in the shop in King Street by Mr. M. Wilson – “Sennex” – who was in it for a few years until Mr. M’Kie, who had always desired to regain possession, having bought the property, again returned to it. There he remained unitl he sold the business to his nephew, the late David Brown, Dalry. As Mr. M’Kie – who died only a few years ago – was in many respects a remarkable man, it may not be out of place to say a work or two about his career. In these same premises he served his apprenticeship with the Crawfords, more than fifty years ago. He was then a comparatively poor boy, and probably little thought that in after years he was to become the owner of the property. About this time he started the Kilmarnock Post, which he continued for several years, but, getting tired or newspaper worry, he ultimately allowed it to go down. Mr. M’Kie was well known as an enthusiastic admirer of Burns, so much so, that the Bailie of Glasgow, some years ago, did him the honour of presenting a sketch of him to its readers as one of the “Men you Know.” Nor need we wonder at this, for a number of years ago he conceived and carried out the idea of printing and publishing a fac simile of the first edition of the poet’s works. So great was the success of this spirited enterprise, that it led to Mr. M’Kie to another and a greater venture, viz., to publish in two volumes the entire works of the poet, under the title of the”Kilmarnock Popular Edition of the Life and Works of Burns”, which has also been in every way a success. I only further add that by his indefatigable endeavours Mr. M’Kie contributed largely to the erection of the beautiful monument to the memory of Scotland’s bard, which now adorns, and has become an object of interest to all who visit, our beautiful public Kay Park; and it is his collected editions of the poet’s works which are to be seen within the building.

Kirking of the TartanPerhaps those members of the Ayrshire list may also like to reserve this date – if they live in Sydney – if they wish to see a Kirking of the Tartan for the fist time. Or even like to have their Clan represented? Mike Boyd Brisbane, Aust. From: Mike Boyd Sent: Monday, March 26, 2018 10:47 AM To: boyd@rootsweb.com Subject: Fw: Kirking of the Tartan - Sunday 29th July 2018 For those Boyds that live on the North side of Sydney Harbour, NSW, you may like to reserve this date in your calendar? Mike Boyd From: Pipe Bands Australia NSW Branch Sent: Monday, March 26, 2018 10:41 AM To: australia@clanboyd.org Subject: Kirking of the Tartan Sunday 29th July St Luke's Presbyterian Church LINDFIELD View this email in your browser KIRKING OF THE TARTAN SUN 29TH JULY ST LUKE'S PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH LINDFIELD Over the last few years, The Pipes and Drums of Knox Grammar school has performed annually at the St Luke’s Presbyterian Church in Lindfield for what is a “Scottish Heritage” / “Kirking of the Tartan” service. Whilst the fellowship and enthusiasm of this small church has made this performance a pleasure for our Pipe Band over this term, the significance and act of the blessing of any tartan has eroded over time. I would like to appeal to all of your to see if we can together re-kindle this… This year’s service is to be held on Sunday 29th July, and St Luke’s have a tentative booking with Rev Dr Peter Barnes, a noted Minister who often talks on radio and is an authority on Presbyterian history to lead the service. I would be happy to act as a point of contact for clan groups or other interested parties (Peter I believe you hold a data base of Clans, Dorothy on behalf of the Combined and Steve on behalf of Pipe Bands NSW) to try and come together and see what can be done to bring back some of the symbolism involved in this service. Please get in contact if you would like to participate. Many Thanks Ainsley Hart harta@knox.nsw.edu.au Pipe Band Master | Knox Grammar School T: 02 9487 0440 | M: 0419 295331 | 2 Borambil Street, Wahroonga NSW 2076 www.knox.nsw.edu.au Copyright © 2018 Pipe Bands NSW, All rights reserved. Our mailing address is: Pipe Bands NSW PO BOX 3695 RHODES, NSW 2138 Australia Add us to your address book Want to change how you receive these emails? You can update your preferences or unsubscribe from this list.

After Kay in Edinburgh provided a link to the 1954 photo of the store front of Rankin & Borland, Chemists, in King Street, Kilmarnock https://canmore.org.uk/collection/1545477 Mike Boyd asked if the shop was located near # 2 and # 6 King Street. Yes, it was. It was on the west side of King Street near the Cross. Numbers 2 and 6 were across the street. In a book titled “Old Kilmarnock” by James Walker (published about 1895/1896) the author reflects about the town and some of its inhabitants sixty years earlier – about 1835. In chapter 1 he mentions the street corner “forming the junction or angle between King Street and Cheapside.” The first shop at the corner was occupied by a bookseller named Mr. James Mathie. (This is not the bookshop that Jocelyn was asking about. That shop, with considerable historic connections, was at the junction of King Street and Waterloo Street.) The flat above this shop was occupied by a hat and cap warehouse of Mr. Thomson. Then the premises were converted into a restaurant called The Rainbow. The shop next to Mr. Mathie, bookseller, was occupied by Mr. Smith, a saddler, and that business continued by a Mr. Stevenson. “The shop next to this is specially worthy of being noticed, for the fact that is the only one in the vicinity of the Cross which has undergone no change during the last 50 years. It is in every respect precisely the same as it was at that time. The comparatively small bow windows, with small panes of glass, have not yet given place to the large, showy plate-glass front, for the business done here does not depend on outward show. Fifty years ago, the late Mr. William Rankin, druggist, was there, and his name is still over the shop, though Mr. Borland, who as man or boy, was never anywhere else, is not the sole partner of the firm of Wm. Rankin & Co. In addition to the chemist and druggist business, which ever since I remember has been one of the largest and best in the town, Mr. Borland, together with his only son, carry on a very extensive trade in aerated waters.” Margaret

I have been watching your emails with interest. Before the war my father James Dempsey Burnie had a Ladies Hairdressing and Chiropody business at 140 King street Kilmarnock Amusingly enough his telephone no was Kilmarnock 19. I live down in Suffolk and although visited Kilmarnock had difficulty working out where King Street is/was. Noreen Petherbridge (nee Burnie) -----Original Message----- From: Margaret Rome Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2018 10:40 PM To: ayrshire@rootsweb.com Subject: [AYR] 2 and 6 Kings Road, Kilmarnock Hi Jocelyn, I have located old photos of the building which was at the corner of King Street and Waterloo where both streets joined The Cross. I’ve also found quite a bit written about James McKie and other book publishers who occupied the site. Please contact me off the list if you want the details as I can’t attach files to this message. Regards, Margaret -----Original Message----- From: Gary/ Jocelyn Harrold Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2018 2:30 AM To: ayrshire@rootsweb.com Subject: [AYR] 2 and 6 Kings road, Kilmarnock Back in the 1800’s my great great grandfather had a Bookseller and Printing shop at 2 and 6 Kings Road, Kilmarnock. I know the buildings are gone, but does anyone in this group have access to old photographs? I think the buildings were destroyed in the 1950’s or 1960’s. Or who would I contact to find some? The company was D. Brown & Company. Thank you for direction Jocelyn --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com

Hi Jocelyn, I have located old photos of the building which was at the corner of King Street and Waterloo where both streets joined The Cross. I’ve also found quite a bit written about James McKie and other book publishers who occupied the site. Please contact me off the list if you want the details as I can’t attach files to this message. Regards, Margaret -----Original Message----- From: Gary/ Jocelyn Harrold Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2018 2:30 AM To: ayrshire@rootsweb.com Subject: [AYR] 2 and 6 Kings road, Kilmarnock Back in the 1800’s my great great grandfather had a Bookseller and Printing shop at 2 and 6 Kings Road, Kilmarnock. I know the buildings are gone, but does anyone in this group have access to old photographs? I think the buildings were destroyed in the 1950’s or 1960’s. Or who would I contact to find some? The company was D. Brown & Company. Thank you for direction Jocelyn

Hi Jocelyn, Some of my ancestors lived in Kilmarnock and I’ve been reading about the town prior to WWI. I did a quick search for King Street using some of the sources I’ve found helpful. Also, I have some old books about Kilmarnock and I will check for information on King Street. The Dick Institute in Kilmarnock has the largest museum and the East Ayrshire central library. If they can’t help you perhaps they can suggest another source. Good luck with your search. Margaret Town Plans of Kilmarnock – the 1868 map was printed by James McKie https://maps.nls.uk/towns/#kilmarnock King Street near The Cross and Regent Street (1857) http://maps.nls.uk/view/74416041 More information about King Street https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Street,_Kilmarnock Ramble Round Kilmarnock – Chapter 1 http://www.electricscotland.com/history/kilmarnock/part1c1.htm Several old photos of King Street here http://www.ayrshirehistory.com/kilmarnock_king_street.html Kilmarnock Post Office Directory (1868) – page 50 http://deriv.nls.uk/dcn23/8653/86537386.23.pdf M’Kie, James printer, bookbinder, bookseller, stationer, and news agent 2 and 6 King Street; house Alpha Cottage (West) Alpha Cottage: A Commodious Dwelling House beautifully Situated in Park Lane. Consists of two tenements, three Storeys high, Slated and in good repair, Mr. J. McKie proprietor. I think the name of the street has changed. Not able to find a Park Lane in Kilmarnock now. Might be Howard Park Road these days. Video featuring old photos of Kilmarnock. At the 1:26 mark and at 2:51 there are images of a building on King Street where it met The Cross. Could this be the spot you are looking for? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tFn3SZOYsY&list=RD7tFn3SZOYsY&t=20

Kay Does it give the number in Kings Street? And was this near # 2 & # 6? Mike Boyd -----Original Message----- From: Kay Williams Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2018 9:14 AM To: ayrshire@rootsweb.com ; gharrold@telusplanet.net <gharrold@telusplanet.net> Subject: [AYR] Re: 2 and 6 Kings road, Kilmarnock Dear Jocelyn, Canmore (Historic Environment Scotland) have collections of photos and details of buildings on their website. You can search by map and list and then filter the results (not always easy to use). Sometimes they photograph buildings prior to demolition. Not everything they have has been scanned and put online as they have a large collection including architectural drawings and plans. https://canmore.org.uk/ Some examples View of Rankin & Borland, Chemists & Druggists shop front (1954) King St, Kilmarnock: https://canmore.org.uk/collection/1545477 Kilmarnock, Elmbank Avenue, St Columba's Roman Catholic Primary School (prior to demolition): https://canmore.org.uk/site/201338/kilmarnock-elmbank-avenue-st-columbas-roman-catholic-primary-school?display=image&images_page=1 Happy hunting, Kay Edinburgh