I just thought of a great way to explain the random recombination concept for my visual learning brain. I am going to get 16 different colored marbles to represent the 16 great great grandparents and do an experiment to see what happens each generation. Not sure if 20 of each color will be enough to show the results but I am going to try that. Any thoughts? Connie Bradshaw In a message dated 10/20/2013 10:17:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jim4bartletts@verizon.net writes: John It's hard (for me anyway) to think this out. The stumbling block right now is that there is no agreement on some definitions. For me (an Engineer) to understand these concepts, I need to be able to explain them to others in everyday plain language. Yes, there is value to terms like HIR, IBD, IBS, endogamous, allele, recombination, etc. but only if I completely understand them, and only if they have the same meaning to everyone. We are on a frontier here. I'm trying to teach this stuff to various genealogy groups - to interest them in testing. I have to be able to do that in terms almost every genealogist will understand. I will try to provide ABCD, when there is Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! On Oct 20, 2013, at 9:40 AM, John F Smeltzer <johnsmeltzer@comcast.net> wrote: > > > Has anyone created a listing of these possibilities ..... > > > A. > B. > C. > D. > > > And applied names to each combination ?? It seems like that's the evolving discussion here in Jim's examples ... and absent a list (or lists) with clear examples shown .... it all remains part of the "gobbly gook" and the immediate "blank stare" that occurs as its explained verbally. > > > John > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Bartlett" <jim4bartletts@verizon.net> > To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 8:20:12 AM > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them > > Tim, > > We are back to no standard definition of a shared segment. When the companies indicate we have a Match, it is with a person who has a shared segment with us - that is, we each have exactly the same segment. Now that segment which we share (the one upon which the match is based), may turn out to be IBD or IBS. I don't see where the term "shared segment" has been reserved for only IBD segments. We often don't know if a segment that is identical between two people, which we often refer to as our shared segment, is IBD or not. > > I note that you consistently use HIR for the segment between Matches, but many also use the term shared segment, because it is shared between two people who are reported as matches. It seems to to fit that meaning. > > Also I note that full identical region is used when two people match on both alleles over the length of the segment. This is typical with siblings - some of their atDNA comes from the same atDNA from both parents (whereas through recombination most of the siblings atDNA won't be identical). So if full identical regions refers to matching, both parents on a segment, I would think HIR means matching one parent on the segment. This would then mean HIR is the same as a shared segment which is IBD. That is an HIR has a string of alleles which matches one parent, which makes it IBD - the segment Descends from the parent. So does Half Identical refer to being identical to a parent; or being identical to a Match. In the case of being identical to one parent, then the possibility exists that a Match has an identical segment, but in his/her case it's an IBS segment. In the case of being identical to a Match, either or both could be IBS. > > I'd like to think that an HIR segment means it matches one of my parents. This is consistent with having at least one allele at each SNP match. If both alleles at each SNP match then we have a Full Identical Region. If we don't tie HIR to parents, and instead tie it to each Match, we would have regions where the one of our segments could be HIR with some Matches but not other matches. This would mean every segment is sometimes HIR and sometimes not - based on who we match. > > Sorry for the long ramble - just trying to think out what's logical (in absence of some formal definition). > > Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! > > On Oct 20, 2013, at 12:15 AM, "Tim Janzen" <tjanzen@comcast.net> wrote: > >> Dear Jim, >> This gets a little tricky. All "shared segments" appear as HIRs in 23andMe >> and FF comparisons. However, not all HIRs are "shared segments" in the >> strict sense of the word. I would prefer to think of HIRs that are IBD as >> being "shared segments". The term "shared segment" suggests that there is a >> common ancestor involved who contributed the "shared segment". However, >> some HIRs don't involve a common ancestor between the people who share those >> HIRs. >> Sincerely, >> Tim Janzen >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jim Bartlett >> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 8:21 PM >> To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them >> >> I thought an HIR was the same thing as a shared segment, because a shared >> segment has the same definition as Tim's HIR. >> >> Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ______________________________ For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message