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    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Fundamental autosomal DNA question
    2. CeCe Moore

    3. Ann, I think I have a set that I can send you. I could also send you mine and my parents, but my dad is at FTDNA and my mom is at 23andMe, so I don't know if that would work. CeCe www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com www.studiointv.com ---------------------------------------- > From: [email protected] > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:19:52 -0800 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Fundamental autosomal DNA question > > No, unfortunately. I need raw data with father/mother/child trios on both > sides of the match so I can use phased data. That's not easy to come by. > > Ann > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 7:41 AM, CeCe Moore <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Ann, > > Thanks for sharing your experience. > > Have you looked at the raw data on those long segments (over 10 cM) to > > determine if they really are IBS? I find those lengths very surprising. > > With your data, you noted that about 95 percent of the time what I said > > earlier will hold true, but that other 5 percent is troubling. I certainly > > would like us all to be able to be confident of the validity of the 10 cM > > blocks and above, if not the 7 cM and above. > > CeCe > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ann Turner <[email protected]> > > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 12:19:52 > > To: <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Fundamental autosomal DNA question > > > > One way to study the problem is with father/mother/child trio data. If the > > child has a match not found in either parent, it is possible (indeed I'd > > say likely) that the segment is Identical by State, not Identical by > > Descent. > > > > Ancestry Finder at 23andMe lets you look at segments down to 5 cM / 700 > > SNPs. For actual numbers in one case, my son has a total of 231 segments > > listed with names attached. 67 of those are found only in the child (29%). > > The breakdown by segment size is > > > > 4/76 > 7 cM, longest 11.1 cM (5%) [This seems consistent with a 95% > > confidence interval] > > 7/37 6-7 cM (19%) > > 56/119 < 6 cM (47%) > > > > FTDNA seems to have a cutoff of 7.7 cM / 500 SNPs (that's by empirical > > observation -- has anyone found a shorter longest segment?). I have data > > for one father/mother/child trio that seems particularly dicey, with 22/100 > > matches in the child not found in either parent. The segment sizes ranged > > from 7.7 to 12.90, with a median of 8. Other trios I've looked at seem to > > run about 15%. > > > > Ann Turner > > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:02 PM, CeCe Moore <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > When I say "legitimately" match, I mean an IBD segment that would meet > > the > > > company's matching threshold, not a segment made up of stretches of IBD > > and > > > IBS pieced together. > > > > > > I'm not saying that it is impossible for a match over ~7 cMs to be IBS, > > > but very unlikely. (I was going to write ~10 cMs in my response, but > > > thought that might be a bit conservative.) I know that it is > > theoretically > > > possible, but in my thousands of hours of atDNA research, I have yet to > > see > > > proof of one. Can you please show me an example of an IBS match over 7 > > cMs? > > > (I know that Ann Turner has seen lots of them between 5cMs-7cMs. We'll > > see > > > if she responds with a larger one.) > > > > > > If enough of a portion of the segment is IBS that it doesn't show up in > > > your parent (i.e.- make the company's threshold), then it will obviously > > > reduce the authentic match to a point that is not worth pursuing. I have > > > chased far too many matches under 7 cMs to recommend doing the same. > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

    11/17/2011 04:19:07
    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Fundamental autosomal DNA question
    2. Samantha John

    3. Ann, I could send you my son and both his parents, or me and both mine, all done at 23andMe if you wish? In both cases, especially my son's, there are matches with him that can't be pinned down to either parent. Regards Sam On 18 November 2011 06:19, CeCe Moore <[email protected]> wrote: > > Ann, > > I think I have a set that I can send you. I could also send you mine and > my parents, but my dad is at FTDNA and my mom is at 23andMe, so I don't > know if that would work. > > CeCe > > > www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com > www.studiointv.com > > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: [email protected] > > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:19:52 -0800 > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Fundamental autosomal DNA question > > > > No, unfortunately. I need raw data with father/mother/child trios on both > > sides of the match so I can use phased data. That's not easy to come by. > > > > Ann > > > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 7:41 AM, CeCe Moore <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > Ann, > > > Thanks for sharing your experience. > > > Have you looked at the raw data on those long segments (over 10 cM) to > > > determine if they really are IBS? I find those lengths very surprising. > > > With your data, you noted that about 95 percent of the time what I said > > > earlier will hold true, but that other 5 percent is troubling. I > certainly > > > would like us all to be able to be confident of the validity of the 10 > cM > > > blocks and above, if not the 7 cM and above. > > > CeCe > > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Ann Turner <[email protected]> > > > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 12:19:52 > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Fundamental autosomal DNA question > > > > > > One way to study the problem is with father/mother/child trio data. If > the > > > child has a match not found in either parent, it is possible (indeed > I'd > > > say likely) that the segment is Identical by State, not Identical by > > > Descent. > > > > > > Ancestry Finder at 23andMe lets you look at segments down to 5 cM / 700 > > > SNPs. For actual numbers in one case, my son has a total of 231 > segments > > > listed with names attached. 67 of those are found only in the child > (29%). > > > The breakdown by segment size is > > > > > > 4/76 > 7 cM, longest 11.1 cM (5%) [This seems consistent with a 95% > > > confidence interval] > > > 7/37 6-7 cM (19%) > > > 56/119 < 6 cM (47%) > > > > > > FTDNA seems to have a cutoff of 7.7 cM / 500 SNPs (that's by empirical > > > observation -- has anyone found a shorter longest segment?). I have > data > > > for one father/mother/child trio that seems particularly dicey, with > 22/100 > > > matches in the child not found in either parent. The segment sizes > ranged > > > from 7.7 to 12.90, with a median of 8. Other trios I've looked at seem > to > > > run about 15%. > > > > > > Ann Turner > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:02 PM, CeCe Moore <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > When I say "legitimately" match, I mean an IBD segment that would > meet > > > the > > > > company's matching threshold, not a segment made up of stretches of > IBD > > > and > > > > IBS pieced together. > > > > > > > > I'm not saying that it is impossible for a match over ~7 cMs to be > IBS, > > > > but very unlikely. (I was going to write ~10 cMs in my response, but > > > > thought that might be a bit conservative.) I know that it is > > > theoretically > > > > possible, but in my thousands of hours of atDNA research, I have yet > to > > > see > > > > proof of one. Can you please show me an example of an IBS match over > 7 > > > cMs? > > > > (I know that Ann Turner has seen lots of them between 5cMs-7cMs. > We'll > > > see > > > > if she responds with a larger one.) > > > > > > > > If enough of a portion of the segment is IBS that it doesn't show up > in > > > > your parent (i.e.- make the company's threshold), then it will > obviously > > > > reduce the authentic match to a point that is not worth pursuing. I > have > > > > chased far too many matches under 7 cMs to recommend doing the same. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

    11/18/2011 09:20:32
    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Fundamental autosomal DNA question
    2. Ann Turner

    3. Thanks for the offer. I would need raw data for the matching party as well, preferably someone has also tested a father and mother. Ann On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 9:20 PM, Samantha John <[email protected]>wrote: > Ann, > > I could send you my son and both his parents, or me and both mine, all done > at 23andMe if you wish? In both cases, especially my son's, there are > matches with him that can't be pinned down to either parent. > > Regards > Sam > > On 18 November 2011 06:19, CeCe Moore <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Ann, > > > > I think I have a set that I can send you. I could also send you mine and > > my parents, but my dad is at FTDNA and my mom is at 23andMe, so I don't > > know if that would work. > > > > CeCe > > > > > > www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com > > www.studiointv.com > > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > > From: [email protected] > > > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:19:52 -0800 > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Fundamental autosomal DNA question > > > > > > No, unfortunately. I need raw data with father/mother/child trios on > both > > > sides of the match so I can use phased data. That's not easy to come > by. > > > > > > Ann > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 7:41 AM, CeCe Moore <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > Ann, > > > > Thanks for sharing your experience. > > > > Have you looked at the raw data on those long segments (over 10 cM) > to > > > > determine if they really are IBS? I find those lengths very > surprising. > > > > With your data, you noted that about 95 percent of the time what I > said > > > > earlier will hold true, but that other 5 percent is troubling. I > > certainly > > > > would like us all to be able to be confident of the validity of the > 10 > > cM > > > > blocks and above, if not the 7 cM and above. > > > > CeCe > > > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Ann Turner <[email protected]> > > > > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 12:19:52 > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Fundamental autosomal DNA question > > > > > > > > One way to study the problem is with father/mother/child trio data. > If > > the > > > > child has a match not found in either parent, it is possible (indeed > > I'd > > > > say likely) that the segment is Identical by State, not Identical by > > > > Descent. > > > > > > > > Ancestry Finder at 23andMe lets you look at segments down to 5 cM / > 700 > > > > SNPs. For actual numbers in one case, my son has a total of 231 > > segments > > > > listed with names attached. 67 of those are found only in the child > > (29%). > > > > The breakdown by segment size is > > > > > > > > 4/76 > 7 cM, longest 11.1 cM (5%) [This seems consistent with a 95% > > > > confidence interval] > > > > 7/37 6-7 cM (19%) > > > > 56/119 < 6 cM (47%) > > > > > > > > FTDNA seems to have a cutoff of 7.7 cM / 500 SNPs (that's by > empirical > > > > observation -- has anyone found a shorter longest segment?). I have > > data > > > > for one father/mother/child trio that seems particularly dicey, with > > 22/100 > > > > matches in the child not found in either parent. The segment sizes > > ranged > > > > from 7.7 to 12.90, with a median of 8. Other trios I've looked at > seem > > to > > > > run about 15%. > > > > > > > > Ann Turner > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:02 PM, CeCe Moore <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I say "legitimately" match, I mean an IBD segment that would > > meet > > > > the > > > > > company's matching threshold, not a segment made up of stretches of > > IBD > > > > and > > > > > IBS pieced together. > > > > > > > > > > I'm not saying that it is impossible for a match over ~7 cMs to be > > IBS, > > > > > but very unlikely. (I was going to write ~10 cMs in my response, > but > > > > > thought that might be a bit conservative.) I know that it is > > > > theoretically > > > > > possible, but in my thousands of hours of atDNA research, I have > yet > > to > > > > see > > > > > proof of one. Can you please show me an example of an IBS match > over > > 7 > > > > cMs? > > > > > (I know that Ann Turner has seen lots of them between 5cMs-7cMs. > > We'll > > > > see > > > > > if she responds with a larger one.) > > > > > > > > > > If enough of a portion of the segment is IBS that it doesn't show > up > > in > > > > > your parent (i.e.- make the company's threshold), then it will > > obviously > > > > > reduce the authentic match to a point that is not worth pursuing. I > > have > > > > > chased far too many matches under 7 cMs to recommend doing the > same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

    11/17/2011 06:23:37