Jim, Agreed ... which was where my thought was leading. I've run into so many test participants and ones interested in all of this but as soon as we start discussing HIR's and IBD's and IBS' .... they take on a blank stare and start doing something else rather than engaging. Or start doubting whether this works at all. So .... at least for me an array of possibles via a listing process coupled with a visual representation works best. It may NOT take away the "blank stare" syndrome completely but will assist. Of course Tim has pulled together some great visuals that have aided us all (thanks Tim) .... and it just seems like this one is ripe for a similar aligning and describing of the possible combinations with some visual depicts. Resulting in an outcome of the naming process / discussion to some most useful conclusion. I don't know if Walter Freeman has been reviewing this thread but I have seen some of his thoughts laid out similarly but not precisely on this topic. I'd be curious to know his thoughts and whether he's tackled this one or not. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Bartlett" <jim4bartletts@verizon.net> To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 9:05:43 AM Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them John It's hard (for me anyway) to think this out. The stumbling block right now is that there is no agreement on some definitions. For me (an Engineer) to understand these concepts, I need to be able to explain them to others in everyday plain language. Yes, there is value to terms like HIR, IBD, IBS, endogamous, allele, recombination, etc. but only if I completely understand them, and only if they have the same meaning to everyone. We are on a frontier here. I'm trying to teach this stuff to various genealogy groups - to interest them in testing. I have to be able to do that in terms almost every genealogist will understand. I will try to provide ABCD, when there is Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! On Oct 20, 2013, at 9:40 AM, John F Smeltzer <johnsmeltzer@comcast.net> wrote: > > > Has anyone created a listing of these possibilities ..... > > > A. > B. > C. > D. > > > And applied names to each combination ?? It seems like that's the evolving discussion here in Jim's examples ... and absent a list (or lists) with clear examples shown .... it all remains part of the "gobbly gook" and the immediate "blank stare" that occurs as its explained verbally. > > > John > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Bartlett" <jim4bartletts@verizon.net> > To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 8:20:12 AM > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them > > Tim, > > We are back to no standard definition of a shared segment. When the companies indicate we have a Match, it is with a person who has a shared segment with us - that is, we each have exactly the same segment. Now that segment which we share (the one upon which the match is based), may turn out to be IBD or IBS. I don't see where the term "shared segment" has been reserved for only IBD segments. We often don't know if a segment that is identical between two people, which we often refer to as our shared segment, is IBD or not. > > I note that you consistently use HIR for the segment between Matches, but many also use the term shared segment, because it is shared between two people who are reported as matches. It seems to to fit that meaning. > > Also I note that full identical region is used when two people match on both alleles over the length of the segment. This is typical with siblings - some of their atDNA comes from the same atDNA from both parents (whereas through recombination most of the siblings atDNA won't be identical). So if full identical regions refers to matching, both parents on a segment, I would think HIR means matching one parent on the segment. This would then mean HIR is the same as a shared segment which is IBD. That is an HIR has a string of alleles which matches one parent, which makes it IBD - the segment Descends from the parent. So does Half Identical refer to being identical to a parent; or being identical to a Match. In the case of being identical to one parent, then the possibility exists that a Match has an identical segment, but in his/her case it's an IBS segment. In the case of being identical to a Match, either or both could be IBS. > > I'd like to think that an HIR segment means it matches one of my parents. This is consistent with having at least one allele at each SNP match. If both alleles at each SNP match then we have a Full Identical Region. If we don't tie HIR to parents, and instead tie it to each Match, we would have regions where the one of our segments could be HIR with some Matches but not other matches. This would mean every segment is sometimes HIR and sometimes not - based on who we match. > > Sorry for the long ramble - just trying to think out what's logical (in absence of some formal definition). > > Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! > > On Oct 20, 2013, at 12:15 AM, "Tim Janzen" <tjanzen@comcast.net> wrote: > >> Dear Jim, >> This gets a little tricky. All "shared segments" appear as HIRs in 23andMe >> and FF comparisons. However, not all HIRs are "shared segments" in the >> strict sense of the word. I would prefer to think of HIRs that are IBD as >> being "shared segments". The term "shared segment" suggests that there is a >> common ancestor involved who contributed the "shared segment". However, >> some HIRs don't involve a common ancestor between the people who share those >> HIRs. >> Sincerely, >> Tim Janzen >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jim Bartlett >> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 8:21 PM >> To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them >> >> I thought an HIR was the same thing as a shared segment, because a shared >> segment has the same definition as Tim's HIR. >> >> Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ______________________________ For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Has anyone created a listing of these possibilities ..... A. B. C. D. And applied names to each combination ?? It seems like that's the evolving discussion here in Jim's examples ... and absent a list (or lists) with clear examples shown .... it all remains part of the "gobbly gook" and the immediate "blank stare" that occurs as its explained verbally. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Bartlett" <jim4bartletts@verizon.net> To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 8:20:12 AM Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them Tim, We are back to no standard definition of a shared segment. When the companies indicate we have a Match, it is with a person who has a shared segment with us - that is, we each have exactly the same segment. Now that segment which we share (the one upon which the match is based), may turn out to be IBD or IBS. I don't see where the term "shared segment" has been reserved for only IBD segments. We often don't know if a segment that is identical between two people, which we often refer to as our shared segment, is IBD or not. I note that you consistently use HIR for the segment between Matches, but many also use the term shared segment, because it is shared between two people who are reported as matches. It seems to to fit that meaning. Also I note that full identical region is used when two people match on both alleles over the length of the segment. This is typical with siblings - some of their atDNA comes from the same atDNA from both parents (whereas through recombination most of the siblings atDNA won't be identical). So if full identical regions refers to matching, both parents on a segment, I would think HIR means matching one parent on the segment. This would then mean HIR is the same as a shared segment which is IBD. That is an HIR has a string of alleles which matches one parent, which makes it IBD - the segment Descends from the parent. So does Half Identical refer to being identical to a parent; or being identical to a Match. In the case of being identical to one parent, then the possibility exists that a Match has an identical segment, but in his/her case it's an IBS segment. In the case of being identical to a Match, either or both could be IBS. I'd like to think that an HIR segment means it matches one of my parents. This is consistent with having at least one allele at each SNP match. If both alleles at each SNP match then we have a Full Identical Region. If we don't tie HIR to parents, and instead tie it to each Match, we would have regions where the one of our segments could be HIR with some Matches but not other matches. This would mean every segment is sometimes HIR and sometimes not - based on who we match. Sorry for the long ramble - just trying to think out what's logical (in absence of some formal definition). Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! On Oct 20, 2013, at 12:15 AM, "Tim Janzen" <tjanzen@comcast.net> wrote: > Dear Jim, > This gets a little tricky. All "shared segments" appear as HIRs in 23andMe > and FF comparisons. However, not all HIRs are "shared segments" in the > strict sense of the word. I would prefer to think of HIRs that are IBD as > being "shared segments". The term "shared segment" suggests that there is a > common ancestor involved who contributed the "shared segment". However, > some HIRs don't involve a common ancestor between the people who share those > HIRs. > Sincerely, > Tim Janzen > > -----Original Message----- > From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jim Bartlett > Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 8:21 PM > To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them > > I thought an HIR was the same thing as a shared segment, because a shared > segment has the same definition as Tim's HIR. > > Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! ______________________________ For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Larry, I suppose this depends on your definitions. Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleotide says that nucleotides are found in both DNA and RNA in the opening sentence. Also look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA where it says the following: "Most DNA molecules are double-stranded helices, consisting of two long biopolymers made of simpler units called nucleotides—each nucleotide is composed of a nucleobase (guanine, adenine, thymine, and cytosine), recorded using the letters G, A, T, and C, as well as a backbone made of alternating sugars (deoxyribose) and phosphate groups (related to phosphoric acid), with the nucleobases (G, A, T, C) attached to the sugars." I don't think that Matt Cook's definition of DNA as being made up of "deoxynucleotides" is mainstream. While the nucleotides in DNA are indeed "deoxynucleotides" most scientists don't include the "deoxy" part when describing the components of DNA. Sincerely, Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Larry Vick Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 11:07 AM To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them Terminology is interesting.  In Tales from the Genome (the course 23andMe is sponsoring), Matt COOK (one of the instructors) said that nucleotides are really components of RNA while deoxynucleotides are components of DNA.  I found that interesting since we use the terminology single nucleotide polymorphism to describe changes in DNA alleles. Hopefully, I didn't add more terminology problems in my description. Regards, Larry

Karla Each child gets exactly 1/2 of each parent's atDNA. Each parent has 2 of each chromosome and through recombination makes 1 that is passed to each child. A second child also has 1/2 of each parent's atDNA - some of this overlaps the first child; and some is part of the atDNA that the first child didn't get from the parents. On average, you and each sibling will overlap 50%; and your sibling will get half of the atDNA from your parents that you didn't get. So between you, on average, you will get 75% (3/4) of your parent's atDNA. So each of your parent's atDNA will go: 25% HIR to you; 25% Full IR to you and a sibling; 25% HIR to your sibling; and the final 25% to neither of you - lost forever to your children A third child would, on average, get 1/2 of the final 25% above; leaving 12.5% (1/8) which no one got. A forth child would get about 1/2 of this 1/8; leaving 1/16 that no child got. Etc. As always, your results may vary. And yes, you can see your own actuals at 23andMe and at GEDmatch. Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! On Oct 20, 2013, at 10:28 AM, Karla Huebner <calypsospots@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Tim, > > A little earlier you wrote "There is only a 12.5% probability that any one > DNA segment that my parents have will not have been inherited by one of my > brothers or me." You have more than one sibling, and I gather Karen does > too. > > What would the probability for just two children (since I have only one > sibling, and we didn't test my father before he died)? Or can I actually > tell the true percentage by looking at 23andMe's chart of our half-and-full > identical areas? > > Karla

I am not very good at talking about segments etc., but I want to see if I understand this. My second cousin on my maternal side tested. I have noticed that we have some matches in common. When I look more closely though, she doesn't match the other person on the same chromosome as I do. For example: one of the matches is a person with a grandfather who was said to be the son of someone I share a surname with. We communicated and her people and mine were from the same basic location. Even possibly the same neighborhood - so it corroborated what she had heard about her real ancestry. Not the exact father but the same surname. Then my 2nd cousin tested. I guess I expected a match would confirm the surname on in the same place on the chromosome. However, her match is greater on a different chromosome. Would that suggest we are matching different parts of the same tree. One of us the male line and one picking up the female line? Does that make sense? The images from Chromosome Browser: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wnklaa0b6w7emtf/4-zQBbD4Qr I want to see if I am correctly interpreting the differences in matches. Chris

Terminology is interesting.  In Tales from the Genome (the course 23andMe is sponsoring), Matt COOK (one of the instructors) said that nucleotides are really components of RNA while deoxynucleotides are components of DNA.  I found that interesting since we use the terminology single nucleotide polymorphism to describe changes in DNA alleles. Hopefully, I didn't add more terminology problems in my description. Regards, Larry ________________________________ From: Tim Janzen <tjanzen@comcast.net> To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 1:52 PM Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them     To me, the word "segment" implies a connected series of nucleotides, in other words a phased autosomal haplotype.  An HIR is not a connected series of nucleotides.  

Hi Jim Yes what you responded to was what I was after. Understanding IBS and the other area that Emily brought up, better, means I won't interrupt a non genealogy match as anything more. >From what I have read 10cMs plus is IBD and under 7cMs can be IBD or IBS while 7cM-10cM is also either but more chance of being IBD. under 7cMs matches that match only me on a chromosome By that I meant the ICW match doesn't have the same match in the same location as me and my link to that match is below 7cMs increasing the possibility of being IBS. Your answer, answers my question well. Thank you Karen On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 10:02 AM, Jim Bartlett <jim4bartletts@verizon.net>wrote: > I was responding in the context of FF ICW. I took false positives to mean > cases where 2 Matches were ICW each other (seemingly positive), but turn > out to be matching on a different Chr (thus not forming a Triangulated > Group - i.e. false). Sorry if the context was different and I missed it. > > If the question is how do you detect that a reported match is really IBS. > Note there are several ways to get an IBS segment, but they all have the > same bottom line - an IBS segment does not come from a Common Ancestor. > > The way I determine an IBS segment is when that Match doesn't match others > on that segment who shave already been shown to have IBD segments on both > sides. In other words the IBS segment should/would match with other > segments, but doesn't. I note it as a probable IBS segment, and move on to > other Matches. There is so much to check and document, that I won't dwell > on these stumbling blocks. Focus on more promising leads. > > It was my understanding that all "shared" segments (of any size) were > either IBD or IBS - there is no third category?? > > Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! > > On Oct 19, 2013, at 12:05 PM, "Emily Aulicino" <aulicino@hevanet.com > >wrote: > > > Please correct me if I am wrong, but false positives (sadly, a very > general > > term) are small segments that are neither identical by descent (IBD) or > > identical by state (IBS) and may be a result of the way the companies are > > processing the half-identical regions (HIR) information or they may be a > > mish-mash of paternal and maternal alleles. > > > > If two people you match do not match each other, then it is only that > each > > of those you match are on a different chromosome (these are different > HIRs). > > > > E > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jim Bartlett > > Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 6:17 AM > > To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them > > > > Karen > > > > False positives from FF ICW can be determined by asking the two Matches > in > > question if they match each other on the same segment you match them. > Either > > one can confirm it. > > > > Also you can easily compare them at GEDmatch to see if and how much and > > where they share (if they'll upload to GEDmatch). > > > > Also you can confirm them, one at a time, if they match a close cousin > (your > > close cousin can confirm the segment if you don't manage their kit). > > > > I would never think about comparing raw data. If they won't cooperate at > all > > (as above), they surely won't give you their raw data, either. > > > > Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! > > > > On Oct 19, 2013, at 7:52 AM, Karen Hodges <rowantreek@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> Hi Jim > >> > >> Thanks for your comments. I think I am good with the true matches now > >> but the false positives can these only be determined by comparing the > >> raw DNA when no genealogy match is found and is there a program that can > > do this? > >> > >> Karen > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 10:12 PM, Jim Bartlett > > <jim4bartletts@verizon.net>wrote: > >> > >>> Karen > >>> > >>> In general I agree with Tim. I would add that Triangulation has a > >>> very specific requirement: A=B=C=A. That is each pair (AB,AC,BC) must > >>> have a shared segment (usually at least 7cM, but perhaps smaller with > >>> some risk of a false positive); AND each of these shared segments are > >>> significantly overlapping - such that all three - ABC - have, say, at > > least the same 7cM. > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Dear Jim, To me, the word "segment" implies a connected series of nucleotides, in other words a phased autosomal haplotype. An HIR is not a connected series of nucleotides. Therefore I cannot call an HIR a "shared segment". The genetic genealogy community is developing its own nomenclature here and I believe it is prudent to be labeling things as scientifically and as accurately as we possibly can. I have avoided calling HIRs "shared segments" in the past and I would recommend that other genetic genealogists do the same. When two people have a matching HIR they don't necessarily share a connected series of nucleotides. It is also important to note that just because two people have a matching HIR, it doesn't necessarily follow that one of the parents of the matches also has a matching HIR with one of the parents of the other match. Sincerely, Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jim Bartlett Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 6:20 AM To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them Tim, We are back to no standard definition of a shared segment. When the companies indicate we have a Match, it is with a person who has a shared segment with us - that is, we each have exactly the same segment. Now that segment which we share (the one upon which the match is based), may turn out to be IBD or IBS. I don't see where the term "shared segment" has been reserved for only IBD segments. We often don't know if a segment that is identical between two people, which we often refer to as our shared segment, is IBD or not. I note that you consistently use HIR for the segment between Matches, but many also use the term shared segment, because it is shared between two people who are reported as matches. It seems to to fit that meaning. Also I note that full identical region is used when two people match on both alleles over the length of the segment. This is typical with siblings - some of their atDNA comes from the same atDNA from both parents (whereas through recombination most of the siblings atDNA won't be identical). So if full identical regions refers to matching, both parents on a segment, I would think HIR means matching one parent on the segment. This would then mean HIR is the same as a shared segment which is IBD. That is an HIR has a string of alleles which matches one parent, which makes it IBD - the segment Descends from the parent. So does Half Identical refer to being identical to a parent; or being identical to a Match. In the case of being identical to one parent, then the possibility exists that a Match has an identical segment, but in his/her case it's an IBS segment. In the case of being identical to a Match, either or both could be IBS. I'd like to think that an HIR segment means it matches one of my parents. This is consistent with having at least one allele at each SNP match. If both alleles at each SNP match then we have a Full Identical Region. If we don't tie HIR to parents, and instead tie it to each Match, we would have regions where the one of our segments could be HIR with some Matches but not other matches. This would mean every segment is sometimes HIR and sometimes not - based on who we match. Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime!

I just thought of a great way to explain the random recombination concept for my visual learning brain. I am going to get 16 different colored marbles to represent the 16 great great grandparents and do an experiment to see what happens each generation. Not sure if 20 of each color will be enough to show the results but I am going to try that. Any thoughts? Connie Bradshaw In a message dated 10/20/2013 10:17:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jim4bartletts@verizon.net writes: John It's hard (for me anyway) to think this out. The stumbling block right now is that there is no agreement on some definitions. For me (an Engineer) to understand these concepts, I need to be able to explain them to others in everyday plain language. Yes, there is value to terms like HIR, IBD, IBS, endogamous, allele, recombination, etc. but only if I completely understand them, and only if they have the same meaning to everyone. We are on a frontier here. I'm trying to teach this stuff to various genealogy groups - to interest them in testing. I have to be able to do that in terms almost every genealogist will understand. I will try to provide ABCD, when there is Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! On Oct 20, 2013, at 9:40 AM, John F Smeltzer <johnsmeltzer@comcast.net> wrote: > > > Has anyone created a listing of these possibilities ..... > > > A. > B. > C. > D. > > > And applied names to each combination ?? It seems like that's the evolving discussion here in Jim's examples ... and absent a list (or lists) with clear examples shown .... it all remains part of the "gobbly gook" and the immediate "blank stare" that occurs as its explained verbally. > > > John > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Bartlett" <jim4bartletts@verizon.net> > To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 8:20:12 AM > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them > > Tim, > > We are back to no standard definition of a shared segment. When the companies indicate we have a Match, it is with a person who has a shared segment with us - that is, we each have exactly the same segment. Now that segment which we share (the one upon which the match is based), may turn out to be IBD or IBS. I don't see where the term "shared segment" has been reserved for only IBD segments. We often don't know if a segment that is identical between two people, which we often refer to as our shared segment, is IBD or not. > > I note that you consistently use HIR for the segment between Matches, but many also use the term shared segment, because it is shared between two people who are reported as matches. It seems to to fit that meaning. > > Also I note that full identical region is used when two people match on both alleles over the length of the segment. This is typical with siblings - some of their atDNA comes from the same atDNA from both parents (whereas through recombination most of the siblings atDNA won't be identical). So if full identical regions refers to matching, both parents on a segment, I would think HIR means matching one parent on the segment. This would then mean HIR is the same as a shared segment which is IBD. That is an HIR has a string of alleles which matches one parent, which makes it IBD - the segment Descends from the parent. So does Half Identical refer to being identical to a parent; or being identical to a Match. In the case of being identical to one parent, then the possibility exists that a Match has an identical segment, but in his/her case it's an IBS segment. In the case of being identical to a Match, either or both could be IBS. > > I'd like to think that an HIR segment means it matches one of my parents. This is consistent with having at least one allele at each SNP match. If both alleles at each SNP match then we have a Full Identical Region. If we don't tie HIR to parents, and instead tie it to each Match, we would have regions where the one of our segments could be HIR with some Matches but not other matches. This would mean every segment is sometimes HIR and sometimes not - based on who we match. > > Sorry for the long ramble - just trying to think out what's logical (in absence of some formal definition). > > Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! > > On Oct 20, 2013, at 12:15 AM, "Tim Janzen" <tjanzen@comcast.net> wrote: > >> Dear Jim, >> This gets a little tricky. All "shared segments" appear as HIRs in 23andMe >> and FF comparisons. However, not all HIRs are "shared segments" in the >> strict sense of the word. I would prefer to think of HIRs that are IBD as >> being "shared segments". The term "shared segment" suggests that there is a >> common ancestor involved who contributed the "shared segment". However, >> some HIRs don't involve a common ancestor between the people who share those >> HIRs. >> Sincerely, >> Tim Janzen >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jim Bartlett >> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 8:21 PM >> To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them >> >> I thought an HIR was the same thing as a shared segment, because a shared >> segment has the same definition as Tim's HIR. >> >> Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ______________________________ For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Tim, A little earlier you wrote "There is only a 12.5% probability that any one DNA segment that my parents have will not have been inherited by one of my brothers or me." You have more than one sibling, and I gather Karen does too. What would the probability for just two children (since I have only one sibling, and we didn't test my father before he died)? Or can I actually tell the true percentage by looking at 23andMe's chart of our half-and-full identical areas? Karla On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 1:50 AM, Tim Janzen <tjanzen@comcast.net> wrote: > Dear Karen, > You should not only test "one" of your siblings, you should test all of > your > siblings if your mom is dead. You will never regret doing that. If you > have 10 siblings, then you might want to test 4 or 5 to begin with since > there will be diminishing returns the more siblings you test. > Tim > >

John It's hard (for me anyway) to think this out. The stumbling block right now is that there is no agreement on some definitions. For me (an Engineer) to understand these concepts, I need to be able to explain them to others in everyday plain language. Yes, there is value to terms like HIR, IBD, IBS, endogamous, allele, recombination, etc. but only if I completely understand them, and only if they have the same meaning to everyone. We are on a frontier here. I'm trying to teach this stuff to various genealogy groups - to interest them in testing. I have to be able to do that in terms almost every genealogist will understand. I will try to provide ABCD, when there is Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! On Oct 20, 2013, at 9:40 AM, John F Smeltzer <johnsmeltzer@comcast.net> wrote: > > > Has anyone created a listing of these possibilities ..... > > > A. > B. > C. > D. > > > And applied names to each combination ?? It seems like that's the evolving discussion here in Jim's examples ... and absent a list (or lists) with clear examples shown .... it all remains part of the "gobbly gook" and the immediate "blank stare" that occurs as its explained verbally. > > > John > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Bartlett" <jim4bartletts@verizon.net> > To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 8:20:12 AM > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them > > Tim, > > We are back to no standard definition of a shared segment. When the companies indicate we have a Match, it is with a person who has a shared segment with us - that is, we each have exactly the same segment. Now that segment which we share (the one upon which the match is based), may turn out to be IBD or IBS. I don't see where the term "shared segment" has been reserved for only IBD segments. We often don't know if a segment that is identical between two people, which we often refer to as our shared segment, is IBD or not. > > I note that you consistently use HIR for the segment between Matches, but many also use the term shared segment, because it is shared between two people who are reported as matches. It seems to to fit that meaning. > > Also I note that full identical region is used when two people match on both alleles over the length of the segment. This is typical with siblings - some of their atDNA comes from the same atDNA from both parents (whereas through recombination most of the siblings atDNA won't be identical). So if full identical regions refers to matching, both parents on a segment, I would think HIR means matching one parent on the segment. This would then mean HIR is the same as a shared segment which is IBD. That is an HIR has a string of alleles which matches one parent, which makes it IBD - the segment Descends from the parent. So does Half Identical refer to being identical to a parent; or being identical to a Match. In the case of being identical to one parent, then the possibility exists that a Match has an identical segment, but in his/her case it's an IBS segment. In the case of being identical to a Match, either or both could be IBS. > > I'd like to think that an HIR segment means it matches one of my parents. This is consistent with having at least one allele at each SNP match. If both alleles at each SNP match then we have a Full Identical Region. If we don't tie HIR to parents, and instead tie it to each Match, we would have regions where the one of our segments could be HIR with some Matches but not other matches. This would mean every segment is sometimes HIR and sometimes not - based on who we match. > > Sorry for the long ramble - just trying to think out what's logical (in absence of some formal definition). > > Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! > > On Oct 20, 2013, at 12:15 AM, "Tim Janzen" <tjanzen@comcast.net> wrote: > >> Dear Jim, >> This gets a little tricky. All "shared segments" appear as HIRs in 23andMe >> and FF comparisons. However, not all HIRs are "shared segments" in the >> strict sense of the word. I would prefer to think of HIRs that are IBD as >> being "shared segments". The term "shared segment" suggests that there is a >> common ancestor involved who contributed the "shared segment". However, >> some HIRs don't involve a common ancestor between the people who share those >> HIRs. >> Sincerely, >> Tim Janzen >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jim Bartlett >> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 8:21 PM >> To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them >> >> I thought an HIR was the same thing as a shared segment, because a shared >> segment has the same definition as Tim's HIR. >> >> Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Jim, I suppose most of the time a shared segment IS an HIR, but occasionally it could be fully identical (parents and siblings, mainly). On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 11:20 PM, Jim Bartlett <jim4bartletts@verizon.net>wrote: > I thought an HIR was the same thing as a shared segment, because a shared > segment has the same definition as Tom's HIR. > > Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! > > On Oct 19, 2013, at 10:59 PM, "Tim Janzen" <tjanzen@comcast.net> wrote: > > > Dear Karen, > > HIR stands for half-identical region. It is an extremely important > > term for genetic genealogists interested in autosomal DNA to understand > > well. Because I couldn't find a good definition for an HIR 9 months or > so > > ago, I wrote my own. It is as follows: > > > > Half-identical region: a region of two paired chromosomes where at least > > one of the two alleles from one person's pair of chromosomes matches at > > least one of the two alleles from a different person's pair of > chromosomes > > throughout the entire region. A half-identical region may be either > > identical by descent (IBD) or identical by state (IBS). > > > > Some scientists use IBS to mean an HIR. I think things are simpler and > > clearer if you use the term HIR in the right context and use IBS only for > > HIRs that are false matches (not the result of a shared common ancestor > for > > the HIR in question). This topic came up on the RootsWeb DNA list in > 2009 > > shortly after 23andMe released Relative Finder. Ann Turner's comments at > > > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-11/12572588 > > 09 are instructive. > > Sincerely, > > Tim Janzen > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Karen Hodges > > Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 2:29 PM > > To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them > > > > What is HIR short for please? > > > > Karen > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

My original goal was to solve the puzzle: which ancestors contributed which parts of my atDNA. This is a finite problem with only one correct solution (like a crossword or sodoku puzzle). I have, half jokingly, said I wanted to find out which ancestors to blame for each of my traits. Of course in the process of mapping my genome, I am also confirming many ancestors. And a few small areas are noticeable by their lack of confirming segments... And the hope is there that the map will eventually point to/through some brick walls. It's hard to focus on these now, but as the mapping to ancestors (out to the 7cM level) becomes more complete, it will become more apparent which segments point to/through brick walls. Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! On Oct 18, 2013, at 4:07 AM, "Tim Janzen" <tjanzen@comcast.net> wrote: > Dear Greg, > You need to always keep in mind precisely what your goals are with > autosomal DNA testing. You are always trying to do two primary things: > 1. You are trying to confirm your (or someone else's) family tree. > 2. You are trying to extend your (or someone else's) family tree. > > To do the above you need to be carefully mapping your genomes as > well as that of your close relatives. In your case, you want to be mapping > the genome of your cousin's parent who is biologically related to you. You > do that just exactly in the same way you would map the genome of your > parents. What you really want to have at GEDmatch are the phased data files > of the parent of your cousin who is biologically related to you (your aunt > or your uncle). There should be two files, one for each set of autosomal > chromosomes. You then want to be entering the data from the people who are > matching one of those two files into your match list. I mentioned my mom's > match list at > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21841126/23andMe%20and%20FF%20matches%20 > for%20Betty%20Janzen%20(public).xls earlier this evening as an example of > what you should be keeping. You then want to be creating a chromosome map > for anyone you have found a genealogical connection with whose data you feel > comfortable mapping. This would be similar to the one for my mom at > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21841126/phased%20genome%20of%20Robert%2 > 0and%20Betty%20Janzen%20(public).zip. If you aren't yet comfortable with > chromosome mapping, I suggest you review the document that Emily Aulicino > and I wrote at > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21841126/Basics%20of%20Chromosome%20Mapp > ing.docx. So in summary, the sequence of the things you need to do in terms > of GEDmatch are as follows: > 1. Upload two phased data files of the parent of your cousin who is > biologically related to you to GEDmatch. Use David Pike's utility or mine at > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21841126/phasing%20program%20(small%20ve > rsion).xls to generate the phased data if you need to. > 2. Record all of the matching segment data for each of these two phased > data files in GEDmatch. > 3. Get the pedigree charts for each of the matches (preferably as GEDCOMs). > 4. Look for shared genealogical connections for everyone who is matching on > the same segment. > 5. When you are convinced of the ancestry of any particular segment then > record that information on the chromosome map. > > GEDmatch doesn't allow you to download your phased data files for > your personal use. It only creates them for you on their system. Keep in > mind that GEDmatch is only creating one of the two phased files for each of > the parents of your cousin. You need to create and upload the second one > for each parent on your own. Yes, you can get cleaned phased data files if > you phase the data yourself. You need to run a program in Excel or in some > other way determine which SNPs are discordant. I have a phasing discrepancy > file in Excel that I wrote specifically for this purpose. You will > generally find about 200 to 300 SNPs that are discrepant in a two-parent/one > child trio. You want to remove the data for all of these SNPs from your > phased data files before you upload them to GEDmatch. The phased data files > you want to upload to GEDmatch will only have a single allele value for each > SNP. You may need to correspond directly with John Olson at GEDmatch at > GEDmatch@gmail.com if you have any problems uploading your phased data > files. What you will know when you are using phased data files at GEDmatch > rather than simply unphased ones are which of the HIRs are IBD and which are > IBS. Quite a few of the HIRs under 10 cMs are IBS. Using phased files > helps you eliminate those from consideration in your match list. > Keep in mind that when you are using phased files from a > two-parent/one child trio you won't know where all of the crossovers are. > Thus, there will be a few HIRs that are IBD that will be picked up when you > are running the comparisons with an unphased file that won't be picked up > when running the comparison using the phased file. The only way to sort > that out is to do extensive chromosome mapping using data from first and > second cousins so that you can determine approximately where the crossovers > are. Then eliminate 25 to 50 SNPs on each side of where you believe the > crossovers are and insert a "-" in your phased file in that region. Then > put the correct phased data in each file. For instance, if you have > extensively mapped the data for one of your cousin's parents, then put the > data for one of the cousin's grandparents in one file and put the data for > the other cousin's grandparent in the second file. Relatively few people > can do that because they don't know where very many of these crossovers are. > I know where about 80% of the crossovers are for my mom because I have > mapped just over 80% of her genome at this point. > Sincerely, > Tim Janzen > > -----Original Message----- > From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gregg Bonner > Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 10:03 PM > To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com > Subject: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Application of phased files from two parent one > child trio > > My principle question is...what is the order of operations to follow using > the pair of phased files to extract whatever data will "fall out" of the > data itself? > > What I am principally interested in is using the files to reduce the number > of false positive matching segments in the list of _"P"_. Is that possible, > and if so, how do you go about doing it? Is it an excel solution followed by > re-upload of yet another file to gedmatch? > > My other questions are about file input/output in gedmatch. Can we download > any of the raw data files? Is the user offered a chance to download the > phased files upon creation, or do they reside always at gedmatch only? It > seems this should offer genotyping error cleaning. Is there a way to get > "cleaned" output of a raw file based on the trio? And regarding input, is it > the case in gedmatch usage that the "raw" file can be the RS number followed > by either 1 or 2 letters, or a dash, or is it the case that the phased file > has every phased RS appearing homozygous so that the input still has two > characters per row? > > Just for completeness, I want to quote "M" - "What do I do with these > results [i.e., the phased files]? And what will I know that I did not know > before?" > > Gregg > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Tim, We are back to no standard definition of a shared segment. When the companies indicate we have a Match, it is with a person who has a shared segment with us - that is, we each have exactly the same segment. Now that segment which we share (the one upon which the match is based), may turn out to be IBD or IBS. I don't see where the term "shared segment" has been reserved for only IBD segments. We often don't know if a segment that is identical between two people, which we often refer to as our shared segment, is IBD or not. I note that you consistently use HIR for the segment between Matches, but many also use the term shared segment, because it is shared between two people who are reported as matches. It seems to to fit that meaning. Also I note that full identical region is used when two people match on both alleles over the length of the segment. This is typical with siblings - some of their atDNA comes from the same atDNA from both parents (whereas through recombination most of the siblings atDNA won't be identical). So if full identical regions refers to matching, both parents on a segment, I would think HIR means matching one parent on the segment. This would then mean HIR is the same as a shared segment which is IBD. That is an HIR has a string of alleles which matches one parent, which makes it IBD - the segment Descends from the parent. So does Half Identical refer to being identical to a parent; or being identical to a Match. In the case of being identical to one parent, then the possibility exists that a Match has an identical segment, but in his/her case it's an IBS segment. In the case of being identical to a Match, either or both could be IBS. I'd like to think that an HIR segment means it matches one of my parents. This is consistent with having at least one allele at each SNP match. If both alleles at each SNP match then we have a Full Identical Region. If we don't tie HIR to parents, and instead tie it to each Match, we would have regions where the one of our segments could be HIR with some Matches but not other matches. This would mean every segment is sometimes HIR and sometimes not - based on who we match. Sorry for the long ramble - just trying to think out what's logical (in absence of some formal definition). Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! On Oct 20, 2013, at 12:15 AM, "Tim Janzen" <tjanzen@comcast.net> wrote: > Dear Jim, > This gets a little tricky. All "shared segments" appear as HIRs in 23andMe > and FF comparisons. However, not all HIRs are "shared segments" in the > strict sense of the word. I would prefer to think of HIRs that are IBD as > being "shared segments". The term "shared segment" suggests that there is a > common ancestor involved who contributed the "shared segment". However, > some HIRs don't involve a common ancestor between the people who share those > HIRs. > Sincerely, > Tim Janzen > > -----Original Message----- > From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jim Bartlett > Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 8:21 PM > To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them > > I thought an HIR was the same thing as a shared segment, because a shared > segment has the same definition as Tim's HIR. > > Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime!

Hi Emily I was wondering what a mish mash of paternal and maternal alleles was? . Your comment is much appreciated. What is HIR short for please? Karen On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 3:05 AM, Emily Aulicino <aulicino@hevanet.com>wrote: > Please correct me if I am wrong, but false positives (sadly, a very general > term) are small segments that are neither identical by descent (IBD) or > identical by state (IBS) and may be a result of the way the companies are > processing the half-identical regions (HIR) information or they may be a > mish-mash of paternal and maternal alleles. > > If two people you match do not match each other, then it is only that each > of those you match are on a different chromosome (these are different > HIRs). > > E > > -----Original Message----- > From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jim Bartlett > Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 6:17 AM > To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them > > Karen > > False positives from FF ICW can be determined by asking the two Matches in > question if they match each other on the same segment you match them. > Either > one can confirm it. > > Also you can easily compare them at GEDmatch to see if and how much and > where they share (if they'll upload to GEDmatch). > > Also you can confirm them, one at a time, if they match a close cousin > (your > close cousin can confirm the segment if you don't manage their kit). > > I would never think about comparing raw data. If they won't cooperate at > all > (as above), they surely won't give you their raw data, either. > > Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! > > On Oct 19, 2013, at 7:52 AM, Karen Hodges <rowantreek@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Jim > > > > Thanks for your comments. I think I am good with the true matches now > > but the false positives can these only be determined by comparing the > > raw DNA when no genealogy match is found and is there a program that can > do this? > > > > Karen > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 10:12 PM, Jim Bartlett > <jim4bartletts@verizon.net>wrote: > > > >> Karen > >> > >> In general I agree with Tim. I would add that Triangulation has a > >> very specific requirement: A=B=C=A. That is each pair (AB,AC,BC) must > >> have a shared segment (usually at least 7cM, but perhaps smaller with > >> some risk of a false positive); AND each of these shared segments are > >> significantly overlapping - such that all three - ABC - have, say, at > least the same 7cM. > >> You can accept a little less overlap, by accepting a little more risk > >> that it's not right. With so much randomness in atDNA, we cannot > >> guarantee anything. > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Jim That I understand. Its the under 7cMs matches that match only me on a Chromosome. I guess these are best put aside if there is no genealogy connection. Or two other matches come up in the same area for comparison to determine IBD or IBS. Karen On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Jim Bartlett <jim4bartletts@verizon.net>wrote: > Karen > > False positives from FF ICW can be determined by asking the two Matches in > question if they match each other on the same segment you match them. > Either one can confirm it. > > Also you can easily compare them at GEDmatch to see if and how much and > where they share (if they'll upload to GEDmatch). > > Also you can confirm them, one at a time, if they match a close cousin > (your close cousin can confirm the segment if you don't manage their kit). > > I would never think about comparing raw data. If they won't cooperate at > all (as above), they surely won't give you their raw data, either. > > Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! > > On Oct 19, 2013, at 7:52 AM, Karen Hodges <rowantreek@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Jim > > > > Thanks for your comments. I think I am good with the true matches now but > > the false positives can these only be determined by comparing the raw DNA > > when no genealogy match is found and is there a program that can do this? > > > > Karen > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 10:12 PM, Jim Bartlett < > jim4bartletts@verizon.net>wrote: > > > >> Karen > >> > >> In general I agree with Tim. I would add that Triangulation has a very > >> specific requirement: A=B=C=A. That is each pair (AB,AC,BC) must have a > >> shared segment (usually at least 7cM, but perhaps smaller with some > risk of > >> a false positive); AND each of these shared segments are significantly > >> overlapping - such that all three - ABC - have, say, at least the same > 7cM. > >> You can accept a little less overlap, by accepting a little more risk > that > >> it's not right. With so much randomness in atDNA, we cannot guarantee > >> anything. > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I thought an HIR was the same thing as a shared segment, because a shared segment has the same definition as Tom's HIR. Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! On Oct 19, 2013, at 10:59 PM, "Tim Janzen" <tjanzen@comcast.net> wrote: > Dear Karen, > HIR stands for half-identical region. It is an extremely important > term for genetic genealogists interested in autosomal DNA to understand > well. Because I couldn't find a good definition for an HIR 9 months or so > ago, I wrote my own. It is as follows: > > Half-identical region: a region of two paired chromosomes where at least > one of the two alleles from one person's pair of chromosomes matches at > least one of the two alleles from a different person's pair of chromosomes > throughout the entire region. A half-identical region may be either > identical by descent (IBD) or identical by state (IBS). > > Some scientists use IBS to mean an HIR. I think things are simpler and > clearer if you use the term HIR in the right context and use IBS only for > HIRs that are false matches (not the result of a shared common ancestor for > the HIR in question). This topic came up on the RootsWeb DNA list in 2009 > shortly after 23andMe released Relative Finder. Ann Turner's comments at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-11/12572588 > 09 are instructive. > Sincerely, > Tim Janzen > > -----Original Message----- > From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Karen Hodges > Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 2:29 PM > To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them > > What is HIR short for please? > > Karen

Hi Jim Thanks for your comments. I think I am good with the true matches now but the false positives can these only be determined by comparing the raw DNA when no genealogy match is found and is there a program that can do this? Karen On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 10:12 PM, Jim Bartlett <jim4bartletts@verizon.net>wrote: > Karen > > In general I agree with Tim. I would add that Triangulation has a very > specific requirement: A=B=C=A. That is each pair (AB,AC,BC) must have a > shared segment (usually at least 7cM, but perhaps smaller with some risk of > a false positive); AND each of these shared segments are significantly > overlapping - such that all three - ABC - have, say, at least the same 7cM. > You can accept a little less overlap, by accepting a little more risk that > it's not right. With so much randomness in atDNA, we cannot guarantee > anything. For example the segments themselves are not precise - the end > points are often fuzzy. But it works a high percentage of the time. > > If you are A, and you match B and C on basically the same segment; you > still need to determine if B and C share that same segment. This is fairly > straightforward using tools at 23andMe or at GEDmatch. At FTDNA the ICW > tool indicates if B and C have a shared segment somewhere. Often they share > the same place you do, but sometimes they don't. I looked at a lot of these > cases a year ago, and - from memory - about 2/3 ICW were on the same > segment and 1/3 was not. Or something like that - it was high enough, for > me, to investigate more, but not high enough to conclude there was > Triangulation - my judgement call. > So I usually ask B and C if they match on the same segment we share. > Either one can confirm it. This is a simple question for them, and if they > are on the same segment with you, this is very powerful information for > them, too. Particularly as the Triangulated groups grow beyond 3 folks to 5 > to 10 to 20... Such large groups should have enough researchers in them > willing to work on place/time matching - clearly if a Common Ancestor > doesn't become evident, we are dealing with a brick wall for many. > > When you have Triangulation, you know the shared segment (among ABC) is on > one chromosome, and that the 3 of you will have a Common Ancestor. > (Assuming you are one of the ABC). > > Now if any two in ABC have a known Common Ancestor, there is a good > probability that all three of you have the same Common Ancestor. When > dealing with deep Colonial roots (and similar populations) the possibility > exists that you and a Match could have more than one Common Ancestor. So > it's always wise to find at least one more Match who agrees on the > genealogy for this segment. This means waiting for additional Matches - but > don't worry, they are coming... > > Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! > > On Oct 19, 2013, at 2:19 AM, "Tim Janzen" <tjanzen@comcast.net> wrote: > > > Dear Karen, > > The triangulation feature is a method that quickly tells you which people > > are also matching a known relative or a genetic cousin whose > relationship to > > you is unknown. You need to be careful how you interpret the results, > > particularly when you are dealing with endogamous populations. At this > > point I would suggest that you not jump to the conclusion that A and B > are > > related to you through the ggg grandfather that you share with your > cousin. > > Perhaps they are related through that line and perhaps not. I think you > > need data from known first, second, and/or third cousins to help you sort > > issues like this out. You need to use their data to map your dad's (and > > your chromosomes) so you can have some idea where each of these segments > > came from. You can then look at the matches on any one segment and can > have > > better insight as to whether or not they could have come from a specific > > ancestral line, such as through the ggg grandfather that you share with > your > > cousin. At this point, all I would do if I were you is to enter the data > > from A and B on your match list and wait for data to accumulate from > other > > matches at 23andMe, Family Finder, and GEDmatch to help you sort out > where > > the genealogical connection is on the segments you share with A and B. > > Sincerely, > > Tim Janzen > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Karen Hodges > > Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 1:42 AM > > To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them > > > > Hi Tim > > > > My cousin and I match on Chromosome 4. This is my first DNA match besides > > Dad so I haven't yet needed to map anything.Dad should match my 4th half > > cousin as it is on his maternal side of the family tree but doesn't. I > > share a 3G Grandfather with my cousin. I descend from the first wife and > > they descend from the second. I have contacted Family tree DNA to check > > that an error has not occurred and it is currently being investigated. I > > don't see a genealogy connection to my Mum's tree. > > > > Match A matches me on chromosome 1 and Match B on chromosome 22 both are > > listed as 5th to remote cousins. Dad also matches A in the same location > as > > I do on chromosome 1 but does not match B although he does have another > > match to a person with the same surname. My cousin and I both show match > A > > and B when we triangulate each others name but we don't match them in the > > same locations. <snip> > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Dear Karen, You should not only test "one" of your siblings, you should test all of your siblings if your mom is dead. You will never regret doing that. If you have 10 siblings, then you might want to test 4 or 5 to begin with since there will be diminishing returns the more siblings you test. Tim -----Original Message----- From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Karen Hodges Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 10:29 PM To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them Hi Tim and Jim Yes I think it is the best way forward. I have Dad's DNA but unfortunately not Mum's. I probably should ask one of my siblings to test too. Karen

Dear Karen, I agree with Jim Barlett's comments on triangulation. I have one other technique I find helpful, particularly for HIRs that are relatively short (7-10 cMs) for which I have no other people matching one of my parents on the same segment. I also compare my two brothers and me against the person in question in 23andMe, FF, or GEDmatch. If the person matches one of my parents and also matches one of my brothers or me at the same location then the HIR is highly likely to be IBD. If it doesn't match one of my brothers or me then the HIR is more likely to be IBS. There is only a 12.5% probability that any one DNA segment that my parents have will not have been inherited by one of my brothers or me. Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Karen Hodges Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 4:53 AM To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Family finder matches what to make of them Hi Jim Thanks for your comments. I think I am good with the true matches now but the false positives can these only be determined by comparing the raw DNA when no genealogy match is found and is there a program that can do this? Karen On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 10:12 PM, Jim Bartlett <jim4bartletts@verizon.net>wrote: > Karen > > In general I agree with Tim. I would add that Triangulation has a very > specific requirement: A=B=C=A. That is each pair (AB,AC,BC) must have a > shared segment (usually at least 7cM, but perhaps smaller with some risk of > a false positive); AND each of these shared segments are significantly > overlapping - such that all three - ABC - have, say, at least the same 7cM.