RootsWeb.com Mailing Lists
Previous Page      Next Page
Total: 40/4094
    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Lazarus kits - validity and / or usefulness ?
    2. Jim Bartlett
    3. I agree with Patti, Lazarus cannot create anything you don’t already have. It just tries to package your info better. But it can only approach, but not expand on, what you already have. I Triangulate all my segments which cover 98% of my DNA. Any new segment will easily match a Triangulated Group on one side or the other - so no need for Lazarus. Jim Bartlett - atDNA blog: www.segmentology.org > On Dec 15, 2017, at 10:24 AM, Patricia Hobbs <[email protected]> wrote: > > My problem with using a Lazarus kit is that it is a conservative > reconstruction. So for example, I share a 40 cM segment with a few people > which turns out to be important to solving a particular problem. However, > Lazarus does not recognize that the full segment came from my dad because > no one else used to create his Lazarus kit also shares that segment to > validate that it came from him. So perhaps a Lazarus kit can be helpful in > identifying potential matches on that particular branch of the family, but > it's not something you also can't do just from using actual kits of family > members. If I use "kits who match one or both of two kits" tool, I will > very likely see those other relatives that go into creating a Lazarus kit > to help identify where on my tree the match likely connects. Perhaps using > a Lazarus kit short-cuts this, but know that you're likely missing a lot of > information, too. > > Patti > >> On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 1:35 AM, Tim Janzen <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Dear John, >> Keep in mind that you can reconstruct your own phased kits for various >> ancestors if you have access to the raw data files for your cousins. It >> takes a bit of work to do that. I think that Lazarus is helpful overall. >> Sincerely, >> Tim Janzen >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: AUTOSOMAL-DNA [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf >> Of >> John F Smeltzer >> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2017 8:15 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Lazarus kits - validity and / or usefulness ? >> >> >> What has been the group experience (in general) in the use of Lazarus kits >> created through Tier 1 GEDmatch tools ?? >> >> Does one need to validate that they are truly representative of the person >> they are attempting to "recreate" ?? >> >> If so ... how can we accomplish that ?? >> >> John >> Colorado and Iowa >> >>

    12/15/2017 05:32:06
    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Lazarus kits - validity and / or usefulness ?
    2. John F Smeltzer
    3. Thanks Patti .... The 104.9 cM is "total" ... The 70 cM is "single segment". Thanks for the suggestions .... have done this now and it's "In the file". John > On December 15, 2017 at 10:24 AM Patricia Hobbs <[email protected]> wrote: > > John, if you do the People that Match One or Both of Two kits tool, and use just the matches which are in the top section for kits that match both, you'd get what you want, I think. > > Use your dad for the first kit, and use the person who matches him at the 70 cM segment (not sure what 104.9 cM - 70 cM designation means, but since you mention the 70 later, I'm going with that). click "Display Results." The top section contains all the people who match both your dad and the targeted matching person. Select all of those (I usually copy and paste this list elsewhere for future reference since you don't get the email addresses after this point), and click "Submit" at the top. You then have the GEDmatch Visualization Options interface. You can tag this group to be able to get back to it again easily. Click on "2 D Chromosome Browser." Then click "view." Scroll down until you find that 70 cM segment. Everyone who is also matching on that segment will match both your dad and the targeted matching person. Therefore they WILL be included. You can go back to the GEDmatch Visualization Options (the chromosome browser opens in a new tab, so you just have to cli ck on the browser tab to get back to it.) and click on the "gedcoms" tab to see if any of this group have gedcoms. Some, of course, will not be those matching on this segment. If those matching on this segment are NOT in the gedcom list refer back to the list with email addresses and communicate. > > Patti > On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 9:53 AM, John F Smeltzer <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > wrote: > > > > > > So .... that tells me that there is currently no (easy?) way to force a key segment into a Lazarus kit for exploration purposes ?? I have a similar situation with a segment that shows as 104.9 cM - 70 cM (single segment) and 3.5 generations with my father's kit and only 35 cM - 19.8 cM (single segment) and 4.3 with his full brother. Would love to figure more out about that 70 cM segment matching. > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > >

    12/15/2017 03:42:17
    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Lazarus kits - validity and / or usefulness ?
    2. Patricia Hobbs
    3. John, if you do the People that Match One or Both of Two kits tool, and use just the matches which are in the top section for kits that match both, you'd get what you want, I think. Use your dad for the first kit, and use the person who matches him at the 70 cM segment (not sure what 104.9 cM - 70 cM designation means, but since you mention the 70 later, I'm going with that). click "Display Results." The top section contains all the people who match both your dad and the targeted matching person. Select all of those (I usually copy and paste this list elsewhere for future reference since you don't get the email addresses after this point), and click "Submit" at the top. You then have the GEDmatch Visualization Options interface. You can tag this group to be able to get back to it again easily. Click on "2 D Chromosome Browser." Then click "view." Scroll down until you find that 70 cM segment. Everyone who is also matching on that segment will match both your dad and the targeted matching person. Therefore they WILL be included. You can go back to the GEDmatch Visualization Options (the chromosome browser opens in a new tab, so you just have to click on the browser tab to get back to it.) and click on the "gedcoms" tab to see if any of this group have gedcoms. Some, of course, will not be those matching on this segment. If those matching on this segment are NOT in the gedcom list refer back to the list with email addresses and communicate. Patti On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 9:53 AM, John F Smeltzer <[email protected]> wrote: > > > So .... that tells me that there is currently no (easy?) way to force a > key segment into a Lazarus kit for exploration purposes ?? I have a > similar situation with a segment that shows as 104.9 cM - 70 cM (single > segment) and 3.5 generations with my father's kit and only 35 cM - 19.8 cM > (single segment) and 4.3 with his full brother. Would love to figure > more out about that 70 cM segment matching. > > > John > > > > > On December 15, 2017 at 9:24 AM Patricia Hobbs <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > My problem with using a Lazarus kit is that it is a conservative > reconstruction. So for example, I share a 40 cM segment with a few people > which turns out to be important to solving a particular problem. However, > Lazarus does not recognize that the full segment came from my dad because > no one else used to create his Lazarus kit also shares that segment to > validate that it came from him. So perhaps a Lazarus kit can be helpful in > identifying potential matches on that particular branch of the family, but > it's not something you also can't do just from using actual kits of family > members. If I use "kits who match one or both of two kits" tool, I will > very likely see those other relatives that go into creating a Lazarus kit > to help identify where on my tree the match likely connects. Perhaps using > a Lazarus kit short-cuts this, but know that you're likely missing a lot of > information, too. > > > > Patti > > > > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

    12/15/2017 03:24:44
    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Lazarus kits - validity and / or usefulness ?
    2. John F Smeltzer
    3. So .... that tells me that there is currently no (easy?) way to force a key segment into a Lazarus kit for exploration purposes ?? I have a similar situation with a segment that shows as 104.9 cM - 70 cM (single segment) and 3.5 generations with my father's kit and only 35 cM - 19.8 cM (single segment) and 4.3 with his full brother. Would love to figure more out about that 70 cM segment matching. John > On December 15, 2017 at 9:24 AM Patricia Hobbs <[email protected]> wrote: > > My problem with using a Lazarus kit is that it is a conservative reconstruction. So for example, I share a 40 cM segment with a few people which turns out to be important to solving a particular problem. However, Lazarus does not recognize that the full segment came from my dad because no one else used to create his Lazarus kit also shares that segment to validate that it came from him. So perhaps a Lazarus kit can be helpful in identifying potential matches on that particular branch of the family, but it's not something you also can't do just from using actual kits of family members. If I use "kits who match one or both of two kits" tool, I will very likely see those other relatives that go into creating a Lazarus kit to help identify where on my tree the match likely connects. Perhaps using a Lazarus kit short-cuts this, but know that you're likely missing a lot of information, too. > > Patti > >

    12/15/2017 02:53:34
    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Lazarus kits - validity and / or usefulness ?
    2. Patricia Hobbs
    3. My problem with using a Lazarus kit is that it is a conservative reconstruction. So for example, I share a 40 cM segment with a few people which turns out to be important to solving a particular problem. However, Lazarus does not recognize that the full segment came from my dad because no one else used to create his Lazarus kit also shares that segment to validate that it came from him. So perhaps a Lazarus kit can be helpful in identifying potential matches on that particular branch of the family, but it's not something you also can't do just from using actual kits of family members. If I use "kits who match one or both of two kits" tool, I will very likely see those other relatives that go into creating a Lazarus kit to help identify where on my tree the match likely connects. Perhaps using a Lazarus kit short-cuts this, but know that you're likely missing a lot of information, too. Patti On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 1:35 AM, Tim Janzen <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear John, > Keep in mind that you can reconstruct your own phased kits for various > ancestors if you have access to the raw data files for your cousins. It > takes a bit of work to do that. I think that Lazarus is helpful overall. > Sincerely, > Tim Janzen > > -----Original Message----- > From: AUTOSOMAL-DNA [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf > Of > John F Smeltzer > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2017 8:15 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Lazarus kits - validity and / or usefulness ? > > > What has been the group experience (in general) in the use of Lazarus kits > created through Tier 1 GEDmatch tools ?? > > Does one need to validate that they are truly representative of the person > they are attempting to "recreate" ?? > > If so ... how can we accomplish that ?? > > John > Colorado and Iowa > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

    12/15/2017 02:24:29
    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Lazarus kits - validity and / or usefulness ?
    2. Tim Janzen
    3. Dear John, Keep in mind that you can reconstruct your own phased kits for various ancestors if you have access to the raw data files for your cousins. It takes a bit of work to do that. I think that Lazarus is helpful overall. Sincerely, Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: AUTOSOMAL-DNA [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John F Smeltzer Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2017 8:15 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Lazarus kits - validity and / or usefulness ? What has been the group experience (in general) in the use of Lazarus kits created through Tier 1 GEDmatch tools ?? Does one need to validate that they are truly representative of the person they are attempting to "recreate" ?? If so ... how can we accomplish that ?? John Colorado and Iowa

    12/14/2017 04:35:30
    1. [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Lazarus kits - useful for DNA Painter
    2. LINDA REID
    3. I have painted my chromosomes before using Kitty Cooper's Chromosome Mapping software. I just did a very quick version on DNA Painter using the Lazarus kits for my 4 grandparents. I noticed that it assigned a segment where I have no shared match. My mother and my brother both match a distant relative on my mother's paternal side. I don't-- so logically I inherited that segment on my maternal chromosome from my mother's mother. DNA Painter showed that!

    12/14/2017 01:24:53
    1. [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Lazarus kits
    2. LINDA REID
    3. I manage a large number of kits and have created several Lazarus kits: my father, 4 grand-parents, both parents-in-law and one grandparent-in-law (all above 1500 cMs with the one-to many search option available). I haven't found them inaccurate, just not particularly useful. Since I have direct access to so many kits, I have already discovered and examined shared relationships among the relatives at Family Finder. All the kits I use to produce a Lazarus kit are for confirmed relatives. If people use speculative matches, the Lazarus kit will be less accurate. My observation is that a Lazarus kit that is just over 1500 cMs is of little use. A kit really needs to have 2500 cMs to be very functional. I find Lazarus kits a very useful gauge as to how I am doing at collecting ancestral DNA. When I have identified some new matches as being on a particular ancestral line, I redo the Lazarus kit. I always record the date that a Lazarus kit was created and the number of cMs in it as part of the kit name so I can see my progress. For one set of great-grandparents, their Lazarus kits are at 1150 and 1137 cMs. I am actively searching for more descendants of their siblings.

    12/14/2017 01:09:20
    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Lazarus kits - useful for DNA Painter
    2. Max Heffler
    3. I love DNA Painter. It very easily allows to me to refine the segments I got from which ancestor as more matches come in. -----Original Message----- From: AUTOSOMAL-DNA [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of LINDA REID Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2017 2:25 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Lazarus kits - useful for DNA Painter I have painted my chromosomes before using Kitty Cooper's Chromosome Mapping software. I just did a very quick version on DNA Painter using the Lazarus kits for my 4 grandparents. I noticed that it assigned a segment where I have no shared match. My mother and my brother both match a distant relative on my mother's paternal side. I don't-- so logically I inherited that segment on my maternal chromosome from my mother's mother. DNA Painter showed that! ______________________________ For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

    12/14/2017 09:42:45
    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Lazarus kits - validity and / or usefulness ?
    2. John F Smeltzer
    3. Thanks Richard .... I have been doing that this morning as well .... and reading some of the experiences. John > On December 14, 2017 at 10:22 AM Richard <[email protected]> wrote: > > John > > Lazarus performance has been a bit questionable. > > There are Facebook groups for GEDmatch and for Lazarus. Suggest you join those > > Cheers > Richard > Director - DNAAdoption > >

    12/14/2017 03:28:37
    1. [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Lazarus kits - validity and / or usefulness ?
    2. John F Smeltzer
    3. What has been the group experience (in general) in the use of Lazarus kits created through Tier 1 GEDmatch tools ?? Does one need to validate that they are truly representative of the person they are attempting to "recreate" ?? If so ... how can we accomplish that ?? John Colorado and Iowa

    12/14/2017 03:14:59
    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Lazarus kits - validity and / or usefulness ?
    2. Richard
    3. John Lazarus performance has been a bit questionable. There are Facebook groups for GEDmatch and for Lazarus. Suggest you join those Cheers Richard Director - DNAAdoption On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 8:14 AM, John F Smeltzer <[email protected]> wrote: > > What has been the group experience (in general) in the use of Lazarus kits > created through Tier 1 GEDmatch tools ?? > > Does one need to validate that they are truly representative of the person > they are attempting to "recreate" ?? > > If so ... how can we accomplish that ?? > > John > Colorado and Iowa > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

    12/14/2017 01:22:09
    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Validity of a match assessment technique ??
    2. Eric S Johnson
    3. > From: Jim Bartlett > One note of caution - keep the data for each test taker separate - do not put > all that data into one spreadsheet. In your spreadsheet, add only shared > segments with you. You *can* usefully keep all your kits' shared HIRs in one XLS worksheet; I do (for nine test-takers x 4 PGSs = 36 tests). But they stay sorted on a column which separates them into four "sibling sets"; but I do commingle siblings, though they're separately-identified; this is useful because, for any "sibling set," at any given chromosomal address, the sibling set might have as few as two TGs, or as many as four (one for each of their grandparents), and the case of more than two TGs, being able to "counterpose" sibling-set TGs (against each other, to make "negative-match" triangulations) is often productive (when you have enough data). Best, Eric

    12/09/2017 02:43:07
    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Validity of a match assessment technique ??
    2. Dear John, When I first started creating triangulated groups I would simply put my matching segment file into the same spreadsheet as one of my parents' matching segment file and then would add a column where I indicated whether or not I shared the same segment with the match that my parent did. I would enter "yes" into the column if I also had the segment and "no" if I didn't. For those situations where I only shared a portion of the segment that one of my parents shared with the match, I would add something such as "yes, but only from positions 108,000,000 to 125,000,000". For the past year or so I have been using Louis Kessler's Double Match Triangulator tool to more quickly determine which segments my parents share with their matches that I also share with matches. See http://www.doublematchtriangulator.com to download this tool if you aren't familiar with it. Using this tool to determine which segments I share with my parents matches is faster than going through the spreadsheet line by line looking at every single one of my parents' matches to see which segments I also share with their matches. If you would like to have a relatively simple technique for finding duplicates between a newer match list file for GEDmatch, 23andMe, or Family Finder and an older match list file below is the technique I use. 1. Copy and paste the data from the most current matching segment file into the older version of the matching segment file that had previously been downloaded. Make sure that the data is in the same format with the GEDmatch kit number or the match name appearing in column A, the chromosome number appearing in column B, and the start location appearing in column C. 2. Sort the combined file first by column A (GEDmatch kit number or the match name), then by column B (chromosome number), and then by column C (start location). 3. Add “Duplicates” as the heading for column J in cell J1 (or in the first column that does not have any data in it). 4 . Enter this formula in J2: =IF(AND(A2=A3,B2=B3,C2=C3),"X",IF(AND(A2=A1,B2=B1,C2=C1),"X","")) 5. Copy the formula in J2 so that it appears in all of the cells in column J for which you have data in column A by dragging the corner of cell J2 to fill the rest of column J or by double clicking on the right lower corner of cell J2. 6. Copy the contents of the entire file by pressing "Ctrl" plus "a" on your keypad to highlight the entire spreadsheet and then pressing "Ctrl" plus "c" on your keypad to copy the entire spreadsheet. 7. Open a new Excel file. 8. Click on "Paste" in the left upper corner of the new Excel file and then click on "Paste Values". 9. Press "Ctrl" plus "a" on your keypad to highlight the entire spreadsheet and then sort the new Excel file by column J (Duplicates). 10. Delete all of the rows that have “X” in column J. These rows should be in the bottom portion of the spreadsheet. 11. Add the rows you have not deleted to your master match list spreadsheet. Sincerely, Tim Janzen ----- Original Message ----- From: "John F Smeltzer" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 4:00:47 AM Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Validity of a match assessment technique ?? Thanks Tim ..... I've made progress in this direction and am fortunate to have both parents tested and their kits uploaded to GEDmatch. I'm trying to visualize how you merge all of this into one master spreadsheet .... I do use them a lot but have never developed (not yet developed?) much beyond the basics with EXCEL. I don't currently use formulas for example and have not embedded images or much text in them. I am experimenting further with the data set for chromosome 18 that started this discussion and have been building a spreadsheet that contains ALL of the reported GEDmatch Tier 1 segment data for Chr 18 for each person in my Dad's TG and all of the TG data for the "Stair-stepped" group. And now I'm looking at clustering among and between them ..... now if I could easily find pedigrees for all ..... wouldn't that be nice ? John

    12/08/2017 06:23:49
    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Validity of a match assessment technique ??
    2. Ann Turner
    3. Some versions of Excel have a command to delete duplicates. In my version (2010), it's under the data ribbon. Append the new list to your old list and select the columns that should be reviewed for duplicates, e.g. GEDmatch ID, chromosome, start. New matches will be at the bottom after this operation. Ann Turner On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 5:23 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear John, > When I first started creating triangulated groups I would simply put my > matching segment file into the same spreadsheet as one of my parents' > matching segment file and then would add a column where I indicated whether > or not I shared the same segment with the match that my parent did. I would > enter "yes" into the column if I also had the segment and "no" if I didn't. > For those situations where I only shared a portion of the segment that one > of my parents shared with the match, I would add something such as "yes, > but only from positions 108,000,000 to 125,000,000". For the past year or > so I have been using Louis Kessler's Double Match Triangulator tool to more > quickly determine which segments my parents share with their matches that I > also share with matches. See http://www.doublematchtriangulator.com to > download this tool if you aren't familiar with it. Using this tool to > determine which segments I share with my parents matches is faster than > going through the spreadsheet line by line looking at every single one of > my parents' matches to see which segments I also share with their matches. > > If you would like to have a relatively simple technique for finding > duplicates between a newer match list file for GEDmatch, 23andMe, or Family > Finder and an older match list file below is the technique I use. > > > > 1. Copy and paste the data from the most current matching segment file > into the older version of the matching segment file that had previously > been downloaded. Make sure that the data is in the same format with the > GEDmatch kit number or the match name appearing in column A, the chromosome > number appearing in column B, and the start location appearing in column C. > 2. Sort the combined file first by column A (GEDmatch kit number or the > match name), then by column B (chromosome number), and then by column C > (start location). > 3. Add “Duplicates” as the heading for column J in cell J1 (or in the > first column that does not have any data in it). > > 4 . Enter this formula in J2: =IF(AND(A2=A3,B2=B3,C2=C3),"X" > ,IF(AND(A2=A1,B2=B1,C2=C1),"X","")) > > 5. Copy the formula in J2 so that it appears in all of the cells in column > J for which you have data in column A by dragging the corner of cell J2 to > fill the rest of column J or by double clicking on the right lower corner > of cell J2. > 6. Copy the contents of the entire file by pressing "Ctrl" plus "a" on > your keypad to highlight the entire spreadsheet and then pressing "Ctrl" > plus "c" on your keypad to copy the entire spreadsheet. > > 7. Open a new Excel file. > 8. Click on "Paste" in the left upper corner of the new Excel file and > then click on "Paste Values". > 9. Press "Ctrl" plus "a" on your keypad to highlight the entire > spreadsheet and then sort the new Excel file by column J (Duplicates). > 10. Delete all of the rows that have “X” in column J. These rows should be > in the bottom portion of the spreadsheet. > 11. Add the rows you have not deleted to your master match list > spreadsheet. > > > > > Sincerely, > Tim Janzen > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John F Smeltzer" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 4:00:47 AM > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Validity of a match assessment technique ?? > > > Thanks Tim ..... > > > I've made progress in this direction and am fortunate to have both parents > tested and their kits uploaded to GEDmatch. > > > I'm trying to visualize how you merge all of this into one master > spreadsheet .... I do use them a lot but have never developed (not yet > developed?) much beyond the basics with EXCEL. I don't currently use > formulas for example and have not embedded images or much text in them. > > > I am experimenting further with the data set for chromosome 18 that > started this discussion and have been building a spreadsheet that contains > ALL of the reported GEDmatch Tier 1 segment data for Chr 18 for each person > in my Dad's TG and all of the TG data for the "Stair-stepped" group. And > now I'm looking at clustering among and between them ..... now if I could > easily find pedigrees for all ..... wouldn't that be nice ? > > > John > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

    12/08/2017 12:04:27
    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Validity of a match assessment technique ??
    2. Jim Bartlett
    3. John One note of caution - keep the data for each test taker separate - do not put all that data into one spreadsheet. In your spreadsheet, add only shared segments with you. If, sometimes, you want to compare data with a close relative, be sure to have a column for the test takers name or initials so the spreadsheets can be separated later. TGs can only be formed around one “base” person at a time. Jim Bartlett - atDNA blog: www.segmentology.org > On Dec 8, 2017, at 10:04 AM, John F Smeltzer <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Jim, > > > I've got "fresh" segment data downloaded and saved to EXCEL this morning for my four core family kits and a half dozen or so additional known cousins along various pathways ..... now to merge and start walking through the pages of data .... > > > Thanks on the comments on "integration" as well .... I have played with the 23andMe data and the FTDNA data and have been able in the past to use the downloads with GEDmatch data .... so a little refreshing my memory is in order but I'll get there. > > > I certainly would continue to encourage FTDNA to make USE of the data easier ..... and while I've not given up completely on Ancestry making their chromosome data available I have worked out a protocol to contact all of my first 1000+ matches (one at a time) with encouragement and detailed instructions on how to upload to GEDmatch (with links). And I do a periodic and polite followup to the ones who are showing on-line activity who haven't uploaded yet. The results are not "knock you down great" but they have provided for some very interesting additions to my "cousins" list. And some great conversations. > > > Thanks for the assist ... as always ..... > > > John > > > > >> On December 8, 2017 at 8:40 AM Jim Bartlett <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> John, >> >> Tim and I are in lock-step on the technique he described. Having TGs and a map for yourself, as well as parents and/or siblings, lets you inpute information. For example if your father shares a segment with a known close cousin, and you do not - you can impute that you got DNA from your father's other side (if you had gotten the same side over that segment, you would have also matched the cousin) >> >> Since you are already forming a spreadsheet from GEDmatch data, you can use that layout for a Master spreadsheet. You can download a spreadsheet of your Match data at 23andMe - and rearrange the columns to match your Master spreadsheet and then just copy the 23andMe data to the bottom of your Master. For FTDNA data it's a little more complicated because you have to download two files there (a Match list and a Browser list, arrange the columns in each like your Master, then combine those two files and sort on name, and then - one-by-one - copy the segment data from one row into the Match row in order to get all the data on one row (and then sort and delete the old segment-only rows to get a clean list) - then add this info to your Master spreadsheet. I've begged FTDNA again to give us a one click download of this combined data... An alternative is to use DNAGEDcom Client to compile the data for you. I still like adding such data to my own Master Spreadsheet. >> >> Jim Bartlett >> [email protected] >> > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

    12/08/2017 04:51:17
    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Validity of a match assessment technique ??
    2. Jim Bartlett
    3. John, Tim and I are in lock-step on the technique he described. Having TGs and a map for yourself, as well as parents and/or siblings, lets you inpute information. For example if your father shares a segment with a known close cousin, and you do not - you can impute that you got DNA from your father's other side (if you had gotten the same side over that segment, you would have also matched the cousin) Since you are already forming a spreadsheet from GEDmatch data, you can use that layout for a Master spreadsheet. You can download a spreadsheet of your Match data at 23andMe - and rearrange the columns to match your Master spreadsheet and then just copy the 23andMe data to the bottom of your Master. For FTDNA data it's a little more complicated because you have to download two files there (a Match list and a Browser list, arrange the columns in each like your Master, then combine those two files and sort on name, and then - one-by-one - copy the segment data from one row into the Match row in order to get all the data on one row (and then sort and delete the old segment-only rows to get a clean list) - then add this info to your Master spreadsheet. I've begged FTDNA again to give us a one click download of this combined data... An alternative is to use DNAGEDcom Client to compile the data for you. I still like adding such data to my own Master Spreadsheet. Jim Bartlett [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: John F Smeltzer <[email protected]> To: autosomal-dna <[email protected]> Sent: Fri, Dec 8, 2017 7:01 am Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Validity of a match assessment technique ?? Thanks Tim ..... I've made progress in this direction and am fortunate to have both parents tested and their kits uploaded to GEDmatch. I'm trying to visualize how you merge all of this into one master spreadsheet .... I do use them a lot but have never developed (not yet developed?) much beyond the basics with EXCEL. I don't currently use formulas for example and have not embedded images or much text in them. I am experimenting further with the data set for chromosome 18 that started this discussion and have been building a spreadsheet that contains ALL of the reported GEDmatch Tier 1 segment data for Chr 18 for each person in my Dad's TG and all of the TG data for the "Stair-stepped" group. And now I'm looking at clustering among and between them ..... now if I could easily find pedigrees for all ..... wouldn't that be nice ? John > On December 7, 2017 at 11:26 PM Tim Janzen wrote: > > > Dear John, > The way I approach my parents' matches at GEDmatch is to sort them all into > those who also share the same segment with me and those who do not share the > segment with me. This more or less gets all of my parents' matches sorted > into triangulated groups. The only thing you have to watch out for is small > segments that one of my parents shares with a match, but I only share a very > small portion of that segment with the match. In any case, you could do the > same as I do with your father's matches. Use your matches to split your > father's matches into triangulated groups. Then create a chromosome map for > your father if you haven't already done so. His master match list > spreadsheet and his triangulated groups should dovetail with his chromosome > map. Let me know if you have more questions about this technique. The > beauty of this technique is that it is very simple to do and you can also > use it to compare matching segment data from the various companies even > where you can't compare your father's matches to each other. I merge data > from Family Finder, 23andMe, and GEDmatch all into the same master match > list spreadsheet. > Sincerely, > Tim Janzen

    12/08/2017 02:40:58
    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Validity of a match assessment technique ??
    2. John F Smeltzer
    3. Jim, I've got "fresh" segment data downloaded and saved to EXCEL this morning for my four core family kits and a half dozen or so additional known cousins along various pathways ..... now to merge and start walking through the pages of data .... Thanks on the comments on "integration" as well .... I have played with the 23andMe data and the FTDNA data and have been able in the past to use the downloads with GEDmatch data .... so a little refreshing my memory is in order but I'll get there. I certainly would continue to encourage FTDNA to make USE of the data easier ..... and while I've not given up completely on Ancestry making their chromosome data available I have worked out a protocol to contact all of my first 1000+ matches (one at a time) with encouragement and detailed instructions on how to upload to GEDmatch (with links). And I do a periodic and polite followup to the ones who are showing on-line activity who haven't uploaded yet. The results are not "knock you down great" but they have provided for some very interesting additions to my "cousins" list. And some great conversations. Thanks for the assist ... as always ..... John > On December 8, 2017 at 8:40 AM Jim Bartlett <[email protected]> wrote: > > John, > > Tim and I are in lock-step on the technique he described. Having TGs and a map for yourself, as well as parents and/or siblings, lets you inpute information. For example if your father shares a segment with a known close cousin, and you do not - you can impute that you got DNA from your father's other side (if you had gotten the same side over that segment, you would have also matched the cousin) > > Since you are already forming a spreadsheet from GEDmatch data, you can use that layout for a Master spreadsheet. You can download a spreadsheet of your Match data at 23andMe - and rearrange the columns to match your Master spreadsheet and then just copy the 23andMe data to the bottom of your Master. For FTDNA data it's a little more complicated because you have to download two files there (a Match list and a Browser list, arrange the columns in each like your Master, then combine those two files and sort on name, and then - one-by-one - copy the segment data from one row into the Match row in order to get all the data on one row (and then sort and delete the old segment-only rows to get a clean list) - then add this info to your Master spreadsheet. I've begged FTDNA again to give us a one click download of this combined data... An alternative is to use DNAGEDcom Client to compile the data for you. I still like adding such data to my own Master Spreadsheet. > > Jim Bartlett > [email protected] >

    12/08/2017 02:04:12
    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Validity of a match assessment technique ??
    2. John F Smeltzer
    3. Thanks Tim ..... I've made progress in this direction and am fortunate to have both parents tested and their kits uploaded to GEDmatch. I'm trying to visualize how you merge all of this into one master spreadsheet .... I do use them a lot but have never developed (not yet developed?) much beyond the basics with EXCEL. I don't currently use formulas for example and have not embedded images or much text in them. I am experimenting further with the data set for chromosome 18 that started this discussion and have been building a spreadsheet that contains ALL of the reported GEDmatch Tier 1 segment data for Chr 18 for each person in my Dad's TG and all of the TG data for the "Stair-stepped" group. And now I'm looking at clustering among and between them ..... now if I could easily find pedigrees for all ..... wouldn't that be nice ? John > On December 7, 2017 at 11:26 PM Tim Janzen wrote: > > > Dear John, > The way I approach my parents' matches at GEDmatch is to sort them all into > those who also share the same segment with me and those who do not share the > segment with me. This more or less gets all of my parents' matches sorted > into triangulated groups. The only thing you have to watch out for is small > segments that one of my parents shares with a match, but I only share a very > small portion of that segment with the match. In any case, you could do the > same as I do with your father's matches. Use your matches to split your > father's matches into triangulated groups. Then create a chromosome map for > your father if you haven't already done so. His master match list > spreadsheet and his triangulated groups should dovetail with his chromosome > map. Let me know if you have more questions about this technique. The > beauty of this technique is that it is very simple to do and you can also > use it to compare matching segment data from the various companies even > where you can't compare your father's matches to each other. I merge data > from Family Finder, 23andMe, and GEDmatch all into the same master match > list spreadsheet. > Sincerely, > Tim Janzen > >

    12/07/2017 11:00:47
    1. Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Validity of a match assessment technique ??
    2. Jim Bartlett
    3. Karla I agree it’s a great tool for those with siblings. Once you’ve mapped out your grandparents over all chromosomes, you can tell any Match which 1/4 of your Ancestry the Common Ancestor has to be. That’s a huge advantage. Jim Bartlett - atDNA blog: www.segmentology.org > On Dec 7, 2017, at 7:50 PM, Karla Huebner <[email protected]> wrote: > > Jim, > > It's possible to use Visual Phasing with only two siblings, it's just > harder because it requires more cousins and other matches than working with > three or more siblings. I only have sets of two tested siblings to work > with but was still able to map out new grandparental regions. Of course, > the fact that I have done a lot of triangulation was helpful, but basically > Visual Phasing is a logic problem and once you get the hang of it you can > move fairly quickly (with the help of some cousins). You yourself have > already mapped out your chromosomes to such an extent that I think you > already have a grandparent map, but this is a technique that works really > well in combination with triangulating groups, so it's a boon to anyone > with pairs, trios, or more siblings tested and on Gedmatch.. > > Karla Huebner > calypsospots AT gmail.com > > On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Jim Bartlett <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Karla >> >> In my case I only have 1 sibling. So I use about 400 TGs to define the >> grandparent segments, any many Great grandparent segments, and deeper >> ancestors if I can get enough Matches to all agree on the same Ancestral >> line. >> >> Jim Bartlett - atDNA blog: www.segmentology.org >> >>> On Dec 7, 2017, at 3:55 PM, Karla Huebner <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> >>> Jim, that's correct. Defining the grandparental contributions and use of >>> TGs go hand in hand. >>> >>> Karla Huebner >>> calypsospots AT gmail.com >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 3:04 PM, Jim Bartlett <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Karla >>>> >>>> I believe Visual Phasing results in segments from grandparents. That’s >> one >>>> generation further back than a parent. Triangulated Groups (TGs) >> typically >>>> define smaller segments that are somewhat more distant than that. >>>> >>>> Jim Bartlett - atDNA blog: www.segmentology.org >>>> >>>>> On Dec 7, 2017, at 1:26 PM, Karla Huebner <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> In figuring out the actual segments inherited (as opposed to simply >> what >>>> is >>>>> shared with a match), I've been working with a technique called Visual >>>>> Phasing, which I don't recall seeing mentioned on this list but which I >>>>> learned about in a workshop with Blaine Bettinger and Angie Bush. >>>> Basically >>>>> you map out two or more siblings' (ideally at least three but you can >> do >>>>> two with the help of cousins) grandparental inheritance. There is a >>>>> Facebook group for Visual Phasing, where one can download a helpful >>>>> spreadsheet tool. >>>>> >>>>> It is pretty cool. I put off getting started but over Thanksgiving my >>>>> brother and I mapped out quite a lot of segments for three two-sibling >>>>> pairs. >>>>> >>>>> Karla Huebner >>>>> calypsospots AT gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 1:12 PM, Jim Bartlett < >> [email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> John, >>>>>> >>>>>> There are 3 things at work here: >>>>>> 1. An ancestor passes DNA down to theirs descendant. Normally you and >> a >>>>>> Match would get different segments. Sometimes the segments overlap, >> and >>>>>> what you “see” is the overlap. You’ll “see” this overlap in a browser, >>>> or >>>>>> in a table, or in a matrix, etc - just various ways to show the same >>>> thing: >>>>>> the overlap. >>>>>> 2. From your viewpoint, the overlap is usually part of a segment you >> got >>>>>> from an Ancestor. When you examine a lot of overlapping segments which >>>>>> Triangulate, the segment you got from an Ancestor takes shape - a >>>>>> Triangulated Group (TG) has boundaries that define what you got from >> the >>>>>> Ancestor. >>>>>> 3. Each Match almost certainly got a different segment from the >>>> Ancestor, >>>>>> and the Match’s TG would be different. The overlap between your TG and >>>> the >>>>>> Match’s TG is the same as the shared segment between the two of you. >>>>>> >>>>>> So yes, a Match’s TG is different, and usually shifted (although it >>>> could >>>>>> nestle in your TG or be larger on both ends). You can take each Match >> in >>>>>> your TG and form a TG for each of them. And maybe there will be some >> new >>>>>> Match-segments found that don’t overlap you enough for a match. You >> may >>>> be >>>>>> able to extend this some amount in each direction. My caution would be >>>> to >>>>>> insure there is a stairstep pattern of TGs. I’m not sure how to >>>> determine >>>>>> the limits of the Ancestor’s DNA on one chromosome using this process. >>>>>> There may be natural break points. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jim Bartlett - atDNA blog: www.segmentology.org >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 7, 2017, at 10:26 AM, John F Smeltzer < >> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A question for all this morning ..... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm working with GEDmatch Tier 1 Chromosome Segment Analysis >> reporting. >>>>>> And here is the example. The question is ... does my logic have merit >>>> ??? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We start in "step 1" with a new cousin matching at GEDmatch which >> then >>>>>> causes me to run the kit in Tier 1 Segment Analysis .... the "old" >>>>>> version. It reveals a solid match on Chromosome 18. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now, Chromosome 18 is my target ... this is where the observed >> matching >>>>>> between my father and this new kit show up in the report from the "One >>>> to >>>>>> One" assessment. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I now generate the full GEDmatch Tier 1 list for Chromosome 18 for >> this >>>>>> "new" kit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> After the list generates I then run "One to One" comparisons up and >>>> down >>>>>> the list using my father's kit as the "compared to" trying to assess >> who >>>>>> triangulates on chromosome 18 with my father's A433360 kit with the >>>> "new" >>>>>> kit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At some point, based on the range of my father's kit matching with >> the >>>>>> targeted kit I naturally exceed the limits of my father's matching >> .... >>>> and >>>>>> so I have generated a TG largely clustered around my father's kit >> only. >>>>>> Normally I might stop right there .... there is already enough work >>>>>> generated to keep me busy for quite some time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> HOWEVER, I further observe that a new kit (emerged within the list) >> in >>>>>> the list that does matches my father in the "One to One" assessment >>>> already >>>>>> completed actually covers a wider range of Chromosome 18 than my >>>> father's >>>>>> kit ..... SO .... now I begin to explore how this second kit compares >> to >>>>>> the chromosome 18 segment list in a similar step-wise "One to One" >>>>>> comparison. This continued exploration (call it step 2 if you would) >>>>>> creates another TG situation offset from the one created using my >>>> father's >>>>>> kit but having the circumstance where I have shown overlap on the >>>> precise >>>>>> chromosome I'm targeting ... in this case Chr 18 .... between my Dad >>>> .... >>>>>> then second kit that fit's into his TG .... and now has allowed me to >>>>>> create a second TG on the same chromosome ... just "offset" and "out >> of >>>>>> range" from my Dad's kit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Can I legitimately walk DOWN through these segment matches in this >>>>>> step-wise fashion and develop some presumptions about the overall >>>>>> "sidedness" on this one chromosome with the "new" kit that started >> this >>>> out >>>>>> in step 1 .... above ??? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Am I in fact "seeing" an expand TG here or am I fooling myself ??? >>>>>> This looks in my mind to be a lot like the ADSA reporting but with the >>>>>> added benefit of having a sense that the two groups are somehow >> "sided" >>>> the >>>>>> same with / to the original kit from Step 1 above ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Proper thinking or off somewhere in the analysis ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John >>>>>>> >>>> >> >> >>

    12/07/2017 05:49:18