Thanks for this, Ann, You can see down to 1cM segments at FTDNA, but when you contact a match, looking to find a Common Ancestor, all of the FTDNA, and 23&Me, matches have at least one segment that is 7cM long or more. Restricting myself to FF and RF, I can't contact someone with only a 5cM long segment. I thought the 7cM and 7.7cM segments were selected because of the very high probability that they were IBD, and that the matches would indeed be cousins, having a Common Ancestor from whom we both got that segment. Please let me know if I've missed the fundamental concept here. I also think the fact that many are having trouble finding Common Ancestors is primarily due to not having complete ancestral trees by both parties - there is a Common Ancestor, we just can't identify him/her/them. I think many of these CAs are further back, and FTDNA in particular has been very conservative in their estimates of which generation it is. They think they need to do this to "manage expectations", but they are masking where the real pay dirt may be - IMO. Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! On Nov 17, 2011, at 5:33 AM, Ann Turner <[email protected]> wrote: > The Relative Finder percent is based on a total of ~7500 cM (two copies of > the genome), so 0.18% would be 13.5 cM. This number is comparable to what > you hear quoted for % DNA shared by various degrees of relationship, e.g. > > sibling 50% > 1st cousin 12.5% > 1st cousin once removed 6.25% > 2nd cousin 3.125% > 3rd cousin 0.78% > > You can see the size of individual segments if you share genomes and use > the Family Inheritance: Advanced tool (down to 5 cM). At FTDNA, you can see > this in the Chromosome Browser, down to 1 cM fragments. The great majority > of segments under 5 cM are likely to be pseudo-segments, though. FTDNA will > predict 3rd cousin relationships based just on the size of the longest > fragment, but 3rd cousins typically have more than one segment over 5 cM in > size. > > Ann Turner > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:36 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Could someone kindly enlighten me on the difference between the >> numbers used by both sources to identify matches? I get the basic 5 cM >> and 7+cM difference. But (1) what does 23 & me's "0.18%, 1 segment" >> mean? And is it important that FTDNA while giving you a total for >> "shared DNA" doesn't actually tell you over how many segments? Should >> you assume something anyway? It would be nice to know the answers >> before dealing with the large lists of matches...

No, unfortunately. I need raw data with father/mother/child trios on both sides of the match so I can use phased data. That's not easy to come by. Ann On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 7:41 AM, CeCe Moore <[email protected]> wrote: > Ann, > Thanks for sharing your experience. > Have you looked at the raw data on those long segments (over 10 cM) to > determine if they really are IBS? I find those lengths very surprising. > With your data, you noted that about 95 percent of the time what I said > earlier will hold true, but that other 5 percent is troubling. I certainly > would like us all to be able to be confident of the validity of the 10 cM > blocks and above, if not the 7 cM and above. > CeCe > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ann Turner <[email protected]> > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 12:19:52 > To: <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Fundamental autosomal DNA question > > One way to study the problem is with father/mother/child trio data. If the > child has a match not found in either parent, it is possible (indeed I'd > say likely) that the segment is Identical by State, not Identical by > Descent. > > Ancestry Finder at 23andMe lets you look at segments down to 5 cM / 700 > SNPs. For actual numbers in one case, my son has a total of 231 segments > listed with names attached. 67 of those are found only in the child (29%). > The breakdown by segment size is > > 4/76 > 7 cM, longest 11.1 cM (5%) [This seems consistent with a 95% > confidence interval] > 7/37 6-7 cM (19%) > 56/119 < 6 cM (47%) > > FTDNA seems to have a cutoff of 7.7 cM / 500 SNPs (that's by empirical > observation -- has anyone found a shorter longest segment?). I have data > for one father/mother/child trio that seems particularly dicey, with 22/100 > matches in the child not found in either parent. The segment sizes ranged > from 7.7 to 12.90, with a median of 8. Other trios I've looked at seem to > run about 15%. > > Ann Turner > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:02 PM, CeCe Moore <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > When I say "legitimately" match, I mean an IBD segment that would meet > the > > company's matching threshold, not a segment made up of stretches of IBD > and > > IBS pieced together. > > > > I'm not saying that it is impossible for a match over ~7 cMs to be IBS, > > but very unlikely. (I was going to write ~10 cMs in my response, but > > thought that might be a bit conservative.) I know that it is > theoretically > > possible, but in my thousands of hours of atDNA research, I have yet to > see > > proof of one. Can you please show me an example of an IBS match over 7 > cMs? > > (I know that Ann Turner has seen lots of them between 5cMs-7cMs. We'll > see > > if she responds with a larger one.) > > > > If enough of a portion of the segment is IBS that it doesn't show up in > > your parent (i.e.- make the company's threshold), then it will obviously > > reduce the authentic match to a point that is not worth pursuing. I have > > chased far too many matches under 7 cMs to recommend doing the same. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thanks, CeCe I email all Family Finder matches at FTDNA (at least 7.7cM segment for each) and 5 Relative Finder matches at 23&Me every day (getting down to small precents, I don't know the longest segment, but presumed there was a cutoff at 7cM or so for each person listed - just topped 1000 there) I'll have to check 23&Me's AF and FIA Tabs - I didn't realize that more than the 1000 RF names were there. Thanks. I wouldn't mind chasing some 5cM folks, if there were a 50/50 chance that we really shared a DNA segment (IBD). I'm in this for the genealogy (using the DNA tool that you folks are sharpening so well - thank you). So for me, I've been searching for cousins since 1974 - now I have a much narrower pool to draw from - like prospecting near the mother lode. As I collect more paper cousins who have been atDNA tested, a few are starting to show overlapping segments. With enough data, shouldn't I be able to do some phasing? So far my paper trails to FF and RF matches pass through just over 200 of my direct ancestors. Granted the paper trails may not be the same path as the large DNA segment, but I think that will become more clear as more Common Ancestors are found? Thanks again for your feedback, Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! On Nov 16, 2011, at 11:52 PM, CeCe Moore <[email protected]> wrote: > > At 23andMe, 5 cM matches are shown on Ancestry Finder and in Family Inheritance Advanced. So, even if someone doesn't appear on your Relative Finder list for which the threshold is 7 cM, if you "share genomes" with them, then the 5 cM and 6 cM matches show up in FIA and they then also appear in your RF as distant cousins. I have MANY of these. > You're right that it isn't an issue at FTDNA and Family Finder. > CeCe > > www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com > www.studiointv.com > > >> From: [email protected] >> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 22:39:40 -0500 >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Fundamental autosomal DNA question >> >> I'm having trouble following the distinction between 5cM and 7cM. Don't all of our Family Finder matches include at least one 7cM segment? How is anyone sorting out 5cM matches and not trying to find a match for them? How do we separate out the matches that might be on a 5cM segment? >> >> On the presumption that all my FF matches have at least one 7cM segment, I email every one of them, and remain persistent until I come to a conclusion that our match must be a Common Ancestor that one of us (or both) hasn't documented yet. >> >> I must be missing something fundamental here - what is it? >> >> Jim - Sent from my iPhone -

One way to study the problem is with father/mother/child trio data. If the child has a match not found in either parent, it is possible (indeed I'd say likely) that the segment is Identical by State, not Identical by Descent. Ancestry Finder at 23andMe lets you look at segments down to 5 cM / 700 SNPs. For actual numbers in one case, my son has a total of 231 segments listed with names attached. 67 of those are found only in the child (29%). The breakdown by segment size is 4/76 > 7 cM, longest 11.1 cM (5%) [This seems consistent with a 95% confidence interval] 7/37 6-7 cM (19%) 56/119 < 6 cM (47%) FTDNA seems to have a cutoff of 7.7 cM / 500 SNPs (that's by empirical observation -- has anyone found a shorter longest segment?). I have data for one father/mother/child trio that seems particularly dicey, with 22/100 matches in the child not found in either parent. The segment sizes ranged from 7.7 to 12.90, with a median of 8. Other trios I've looked at seem to run about 15%. Ann Turner On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:02 PM, CeCe Moore <[email protected]> wrote: > > When I say "legitimately" match, I mean an IBD segment that would meet the > company's matching threshold, not a segment made up of stretches of IBD and > IBS pieced together. > > I'm not saying that it is impossible for a match over ~7 cMs to be IBS, > but very unlikely. (I was going to write ~10 cMs in my response, but > thought that might be a bit conservative.) I know that it is theoretically > possible, but in my thousands of hours of atDNA research, I have yet to see > proof of one. Can you please show me an example of an IBS match over 7 cMs? > (I know that Ann Turner has seen lots of them between 5cMs-7cMs. We'll see > if she responds with a larger one.) > > If enough of a portion of the segment is IBS that it doesn't show up in > your parent (i.e.- make the company's threshold), then it will obviously > reduce the authentic match to a point that is not worth pursuing. I have > chased far too many matches under 7 cMs to recommend doing the same. >

The Relative Finder percent is based on a total of ~7500 cM (two copies of the genome), so 0.18% would be 13.5 cM. This number is comparable to what you hear quoted for % DNA shared by various degrees of relationship, e.g. sibling 50% 1st cousin 12.5% 1st cousin once removed 6.25% 2nd cousin 3.125% 3rd cousin 0.78% You can see the size of individual segments if you share genomes and use the Family Inheritance: Advanced tool (down to 5 cM). At FTDNA, you can see this in the Chromosome Browser, down to 1 cM fragments. The great majority of segments under 5 cM are likely to be pseudo-segments, though. FTDNA will predict 3rd cousin relationships based just on the size of the longest fragment, but 3rd cousins typically have more than one segment over 5 cM in size. Ann Turner On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:36 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Could someone kindly enlighten me on the difference between the > numbers used by both sources to identify matches? I get the basic 5 cM > and 7+cM difference. But (1) what does 23 & me's "0.18%, 1 segment" > mean? And is it important that FTDNA while giving you a total for > "shared DNA" doesn't actually tell you over how many segments? Should > you assume something anyway? It would be nice to know the answers > before dealing with the large lists of matches... >

Any match your brother has on the X with another male will be reported as a full (100%) match, since there is just one X chromosome to consider. Ann Turner On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:42 PM, Fran Meng <[email protected]> wrote: > My brother shares on the X base pairs with a full match with several > people including our second cousin. Our maternal grandmothers were > sisters. Should I conclude that 1/2 is from our mothers and the other 1/2 > is from our fathers?Could our fathers also be related? > Fran > [email protected] >

FTDNA's chromosome browser will give you the total segments shared. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:36 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Could someone kindly enlighten me on the difference between the > numbers used by both sources to identify matches? I get the basic 5 cM > and 7+cM difference. But (1) what does 23 & me's "0.18%, 1 segment" > mean? And is it important that FTDNA while giving you a total for > "shared DNA" doesn't actually tell you over how many segments? Should > you assume something anyway? It would be nice to know the answers > before dealing with the large lists of matches... > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I'm having trouble following the distinction between 5cM and 7cM. Don't all of our Family Finder matches include at least one 7cM segment? How is anyone sorting out 5cM matches and not trying to find a match for them? How do we separate out the matches that might be on a 5cM segment? On the presumption that all my FF matches have at least one 7cM segment, I email every one of them, and remain persistent until I come to a conclusion that our match must be a Common Ancestor that one of us (or both) hasn't documented yet. I must be missing something fundamental here - what is it? Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! On Nov 16, 2011, at 5:00 PM, Paul Wright <[email protected]> wrote: > I don't recommend spending much time on small matches either, but some > people do and some claim to have determined relationships. In any case, to > address the initial question about whether one can assume a non-match with > one parent means the relationship MUST be via the other parent, the answer > is NO and your response suggest an aire of absolutes (with states of > legitimacy and implied illigitimacy) rather than greater or lesser > likelihood. And we're not talking theoretical. I'm reasonably sure I've > seen examples of IBS over 7 cM, but will have to get back to you on > details. > > Meanwhile, I mispoke in the last sentence and should have left off the > "lack of match", primary point being that if parents are distant cousins of > each other, then determining whether how you are related becomes even more > difficult. > > Wasn't trying to piss you off. > > thks > > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:02 PM, CeCe Moore <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> When I say "legitimately" match, I mean an IBD segment that would meet the >> company's matching threshold, not a segment made up of stretches of IBD and >> IBS pieced together. >> >> I'm not saying that it is impossible for a match over ~7 cMs to be IBS, >> but very unlikely. (I was going to write ~10 cMs in my response, but >> thought that might be a bit conservative.) I know that it is theoretically >> possible, but in my thousands of hours of atDNA research, I have yet to see >> proof of one. Can you please show me an example of an IBS match over 7 cMs? >> (I know that Ann Turner has seen lots of them between 5cMs-7cMs. We'll see >> if she responds with a larger one.) >> >> If enough of a portion of the segment is IBS that it doesn't show up in >> your parent (i.e.- make the company's threshold), then it will obviously >> reduce the authentic match to a point that is not worth pursuing. I have >> chased far too many matches under 7 cMs to recommend doing the same. >> >> How does one's parents being distantly related "make it more difficult to >> draw conclusions from lack of match"? Perhaps, if they are related, it >> might make it more difficult to draw conclusions from the PRESENCE of a >> match as to which side you inherited the DNA, but it doesn't matter for >> triangulation purposes with your match if the common ancestor appears in >> both sides of your family trees. >> >> I don't totally understand the point of your response. I am attempting to >> give simple advice that works in the vast majority of cases. There are >> always theoretical exceptions and if we went by those, we would never get >> anywhere with autosomal DNA matching for genealogy. >> >> Thanks, >> >> CeCe >> >> www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com >> www.studiointv.com >> >> >>> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:22:00 -0600 >>> From: [email protected] >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Fundamental autosomal DNA question >>> >>> Not entirely true. IBS can occur for segment over 7 cM, but are more >>> likely with the shorter segments. >>> >>> Meanwhile, even if IBS, the majority of the segment could be IBD and as a >>> result appear to "skip" generations appearing for both a grandparent and >>> grandchild, but not the parent/child in between them. And in some cases, >>> it may be an even larger segment share for the grandparent. >>> >>> Of course it also possible, and more common than many may think, that a >>> persons parents may be distantly related which may make it even more >>> difficult to draw conclusions from lack of a match. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:02 PM, CeCe Moore <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> You cannot legitimately match with someone who shares an ancestor with >>>> your mother's line without her showing the match as well. In most >> cases, if >>>> you have a match that your mother doesn't have, you can safely conclude >>>> that they are from your father's side. However, if the match is under >> ~7 >>>> cMs, it might be coincidental - identical by state - in other words a >> false >>>> positive, in which case it won't show up in either parent and is not >> worth >>>> pursuing. >>>> CeCe >>>> >>>> www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com >>>> www.studiointv.com >>>> >>>> >>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:44:41 -0500 >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Fundamental autosomal DNA question >>>>> >>>>> I’m sure this fundamental question has been answered before, but I >> have >>>> missed it. >>>>> >>>>> If both my mother and myself have tested, can I match with someone >> from >>>> a known ancestral line of hers while she does NOT? OR, would the match >>>> mean that I MUST be related to this person through my paternal line? >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Fran, I am not sure I entirely understand your question. Your brother's X came from his mother. If he is matching with the 2nd cousin on the X then it is very likely that portion of his X came from his maternal grandmother. However, you can't tell at this point whether the segment came from the maternal great grandmother or from the maternal great grandfather. I don't know what your father has to do with this situation. As you probably realize, you got one of your X chromosomes from your father and one from your mother. If this doesn't answer your question, perhaps you can explain your question in greater detail. Sincerely, Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fran Meng Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 8:42 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Base Pairs With Full Match My brother shares on the X base pairs with a full match with several people including our second cousin. Our maternal grandmothers were sisters. Should I conclude that 1/2 is from our mothers and the other 1/2 is from our fathers?Could our fathers also be related? Fran [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My sister and I and my dad's brother have all tested. Those matches that my dad's brother shares with me and those he shares with my sister are for sure related on my dad's side, right? This seems obvious, but so many things that seem obvious in this game turn out not to be so, so I thought I'd ask. :)

How does Family Finder handle it when 2 people have two sets of ancestors in common. Is it likely that the relationship might be predicted to be closer than it really is because you are matching DNA from both lines? Thank you.

At 23andMe, 5 cM matches are shown on Ancestry Finder and in Family Inheritance Advanced. So, even if someone doesn't appear on your Relative Finder list for which the threshold is 7 cM, if you "share genomes" with them, then the 5 cM and 6 cM matches show up in FIA and they then also appear in your RF as distant cousins. I have MANY of these. You're right that it isn't an issue at FTDNA and Family Finder. CeCe www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com www.studiointv.com > From: [email protected] > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 22:39:40 -0500 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Fundamental autosomal DNA question > > I'm having trouble following the distinction between 5cM and 7cM. Don't all of our Family Finder matches include at least one 7cM segment? How is anyone sorting out 5cM matches and not trying to find a match for them? How do we separate out the matches that might be on a 5cM segment? > > On the presumption that all my FF matches have at least one 7cM segment, I email every one of them, and remain persistent until I come to a conclusion that our match must be a Common Ancestor that one of us (or both) hasn't documented yet. > > I must be missing something fundamental here - what is it? > > Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! >

My brother shares on the X base pairs with a full match with several people including our second cousin. Our maternal grandmothers were sisters. Should I conclude that 1/2 is from our mothers and the other 1/2 is from our fathers?Could our fathers also be related? Fran [email protected]

Could someone kindly enlighten me on the difference between the numbers used by both sources to identify matches? I get the basic 5 cM and 7+cM difference. But (1) what does 23 & me's "0.18%, 1 segment" mean? And is it important that FTDNA while giving you a total for "shared DNA" doesn't actually tell you over how many segments? Should you assume something anyway? It would be nice to know the answers before dealing with the large lists of matches...

I don't recommend spending much time on small matches either, but some people do and some claim to have determined relationships. In any case, to address the initial question about whether one can assume a non-match with one parent means the relationship MUST be via the other parent, the answer is NO and your response suggest an aire of absolutes (with states of legitimacy and implied illigitimacy) rather than greater or lesser likelihood. And we're not talking theoretical. I'm reasonably sure I've seen examples of IBS over 7 cM, but will have to get back to you on details. Meanwhile, I mispoke in the last sentence and should have left off the "lack of match", primary point being that if parents are distant cousins of each other, then determining whether how you are related becomes even more difficult. Wasn't trying to piss you off. thks On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:02 PM, CeCe Moore <[email protected]> wrote: > > When I say "legitimately" match, I mean an IBD segment that would meet the > company's matching threshold, not a segment made up of stretches of IBD and > IBS pieced together. > > I'm not saying that it is impossible for a match over ~7 cMs to be IBS, > but very unlikely. (I was going to write ~10 cMs in my response, but > thought that might be a bit conservative.) I know that it is theoretically > possible, but in my thousands of hours of atDNA research, I have yet to see > proof of one. Can you please show me an example of an IBS match over 7 cMs? > (I know that Ann Turner has seen lots of them between 5cMs-7cMs. We'll see > if she responds with a larger one.) > > If enough of a portion of the segment is IBS that it doesn't show up in > your parent (i.e.- make the company's threshold), then it will obviously > reduce the authentic match to a point that is not worth pursuing. I have > chased far too many matches under 7 cMs to recommend doing the same. > > How does one's parents being distantly related "make it more difficult to > draw conclusions from lack of match"? Perhaps, if they are related, it > might make it more difficult to draw conclusions from the PRESENCE of a > match as to which side you inherited the DNA, but it doesn't matter for > triangulation purposes with your match if the common ancestor appears in > both sides of your family trees. > > I don't totally understand the point of your response. I am attempting to > give simple advice that works in the vast majority of cases. There are > always theoretical exceptions and if we went by those, we would never get > anywhere with autosomal DNA matching for genealogy. > > Thanks, > > CeCe > > www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com > www.studiointv.com > > > > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:22:00 -0600 > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Fundamental autosomal DNA question > > > > Not entirely true. IBS can occur for segment over 7 cM, but are more > > likely with the shorter segments. > > > > Meanwhile, even if IBS, the majority of the segment could be IBD and as a > > result appear to "skip" generations appearing for both a grandparent and > > grandchild, but not the parent/child in between them. And in some cases, > > it may be an even larger segment share for the grandparent. > > > > Of course it also possible, and more common than many may think, that a > > persons parents may be distantly related which may make it even more > > difficult to draw conclusions from lack of a match. > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:02 PM, CeCe Moore <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > You cannot legitimately match with someone who shares an ancestor with > > > your mother's line without her showing the match as well. In most > cases, if > > > you have a match that your mother doesn't have, you can safely conclude > > > that they are from your father's side. However, if the match is under > ~7 > > > cMs, it might be coincidental - identical by state - in other words a > false > > > positive, in which case it won't show up in either parent and is not > worth > > > pursuing. > > > CeCe > > > > > > www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com > > > www.studiointv.com > > > > > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:44:41 -0500 > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Fundamental autosomal DNA question > > > > > > > > I’m sure this fundamental question has been answered before, but I > have > > > missed it. > > > > > > > > If both my mother and myself have tested, can I match with someone > from > > > a known ancestral line of hers while she does NOT? OR, would the match > > > mean that I MUST be related to this person through my paternal line? > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

These discussions of which side matches are coming from are so interesting, and so baffling. I have yet to be able to figure out any of my own matches. Two I think I did but since we could not be positive on at least one generation, I couldn't claim them to a specific degree of cousinship. Anyway, after reading some of the recent discussion(s), I should be safe in telling someone to mainly concentrate on those matches over 10cM just to be sure. And if/when those are all exhausted, to try the remaining ones over 7cM. Does that sound right? They should start by looking at the matches with the largest segments. So if two FF tested people share a mother, the mother is deceased and untested, have different fathers, only one father could be tested and is, those matches in common for the two 1/2 siblings that the father of the one sibling does NOT have, and 10cM or over, SHOULD be from the shared mother. Right? I don't want to confuse them too much with the IBD and IBS 7cM gray area to start with. It's already confusing since the mother is a distant cousin of the tested father, making the one half sibling cousin to the other half sibling's father. Since the MRCA of the mother and the one father would have to be from the early 1700s though, those matching segments should be pretty small? I think I tried to ask this same thing last week, but didn't get an answer. I 'think' I'm asking it in a better way this time but I may still be talking gibberish :) melissa

When I say "legitimately" match, I mean an IBD segment that would meet the company's matching threshold, not a segment made up of stretches of IBD and IBS pieced together. I'm not saying that it is impossible for a match over ~7 cMs to be IBS, but very unlikely. (I was going to write ~10 cMs in my response, but thought that might be a bit conservative.) I know that it is theoretically possible, but in my thousands of hours of atDNA research, I have yet to see proof of one. Can you please show me an example of an IBS match over 7 cMs? (I know that Ann Turner has seen lots of them between 5cMs-7cMs. We'll see if she responds with a larger one.) If enough of a portion of the segment is IBS that it doesn't show up in your parent (i.e.- make the company's threshold), then it will obviously reduce the authentic match to a point that is not worth pursuing. I have chased far too many matches under 7 cMs to recommend doing the same. How does one's parents being distantly related "make it more difficult to draw conclusions from lack of match"? Perhaps, if they are related, it might make it more difficult to draw conclusions from the PRESENCE of a match as to which side you inherited the DNA, but it doesn't matter for triangulation purposes with your match if the common ancestor appears in both sides of your family trees. I don't totally understand the point of your response. I am attempting to give simple advice that works in the vast majority of cases. There are always theoretical exceptions and if we went by those, we would never get anywhere with autosomal DNA matching for genealogy. Thanks, CeCe   www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com www.studiointv.com > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:22:00 -0600 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Fundamental autosomal DNA question > > Not entirely true. IBS can occur for segment over 7 cM, but are more > likely with the shorter segments. > > Meanwhile, even if IBS, the majority of the segment could be IBD and as a > result appear to "skip" generations appearing for both a grandparent and > grandchild, but not the parent/child in between them. And in some cases, > it may be an even larger segment share for the grandparent. > > Of course it also possible, and more common than many may think, that a > persons parents may be distantly related which may make it even more > difficult to draw conclusions from lack of a match. > > > > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:02 PM, CeCe Moore <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > You cannot legitimately match with someone who shares an ancestor with > > your mother's line without her showing the match as well. In most cases, if > > you have a match that your mother doesn't have, you can safely conclude > > that they are from your father's side. However, if the match is under ~7 > > cMs, it might be coincidental - identical by state - in other words a false > > positive, in which case it won't show up in either parent and is not worth > > pursuing. > > CeCe > > > > www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com > > www.studiointv.com > > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:44:41 -0500 > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Fundamental autosomal DNA question > > > > > > I’m sure this fundamental question has been answered before, but I have > > missed it. > > > > > > If both my mother and myself have tested, can I match with someone from > > a known ancestral line of hers while she does NOT? OR, would the match > > mean that I MUST be related to this person through my paternal line? > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have the same complaint as last time. Family Finder is now $199 and mtFullSequence is now $239. Bought separately, they would be $438. But, if you buy them bundled together, they are $439...yes, more expensive. The same ridiculous disincentive applies to other bulk bundles. 2011/11/15 CeCe Moore <[email protected]> > > Details are on my blog: > http://www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com/2011/11/ftdna-holiday-sale.html > > CeCe > www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com > www.studiointv.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Not entirely true. IBS can occur for segment over 7 cM, but are more likely with the shorter segments. Meanwhile, even if IBS, the majority of the segment could be IBD and as a result appear to "skip" generations appearing for both a grandparent and grandchild, but not the parent/child in between them. And in some cases, it may be an even larger segment share for the grandparent. Of course it also possible, and more common than many may think, that a persons parents may be distantly related which may make it even more difficult to draw conclusions from lack of a match. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:02 PM, CeCe Moore <[email protected]> wrote: > > You cannot legitimately match with someone who shares an ancestor with > your mother's line without her showing the match as well. In most cases, if > you have a match that your mother doesn't have, you can safely conclude > that they are from your father's side. However, if the match is under ~7 > cMs, it might be coincidental - identical by state - in other words a false > positive, in which case it won't show up in either parent and is not worth > pursuing. > CeCe > > www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com > www.studiointv.com > > > > From: [email protected] > > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:44:41 -0500 > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Fundamental autosomal DNA question > > > > I’m sure this fundamental question has been answered before, but I have > missed it. > > > > If both my mother and myself have tested, can I match with someone from > a known ancestral line of hers while she does NOT? OR, would the match > mean that I MUST be related to this person through my paternal line? > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Same sale pricing that they've had for the past 3+ years, with exception of one time 24 hr 40% off sale that they did not repeat. No discount on Y111 is disappointing and price on FF still too high, especially in lieu of $50 upload option announced. Probably better for most to wait for 23andMe sale the week of Thanksgiving and then upload to FF later. Besides CeCe posting here and on FB, e-mail from FTDNA only going to Project Administrators and not any other FTDNA customers. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:54 PM, M Robards <[email protected]> wrote: > I was SO looking forward to upgrading my dad to 111 STRs with a big > fat discount, but no such luck. However, this IS a great sale :) > > melissa > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >