Thanks, you'all. M.A ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com

I just now checked the URL using Internet Explorer, and the image came up OK. Might you have some settings that prevent displays of graphic files? Ann On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 10:21 AM, M. A. Farrell <[email protected]>wrote: > Ann, this image seems to be blacked out... Mary Alice > > ............you sent..................... > Date: Jan 12, 2012 10:40 AM > I'm not certain this is what you're asking, but longer segments generally > mean that your common ancestor is more recent. That is a broad statement > about large samples, and there is a lot of variability in individual cases. > Perhaps this diagram of segments found between a mother/son and their > cousin will serve to illustrate the range of what you might see going from > one generation to the next: > > http://dnacousins.com/Fam_Inheritance_recomb_example.GIF > > Ann Turner >

Ann, this image seems to be blacked out... Mary Alice ............you sent..................... Date: Jan 12, 2012 10:40 AM I'm not certain this is what you're asking, but longer segments generally mean that your common ancestor is more recent. That is a broad statement about large samples, and there is a lot of variability in individual cases. Perhaps this diagram of segments found between a mother/son and their cousin will serve to illustrate the range of what you might see going from one generation to the next: http://dnacousins.com/Fam_Inheritance_recomb_example.GIF Ann Turner ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com

Mary Alice, It works for me with Google Chrome. Regards, Larry ________________________________ From: M. A. Farrell <[email protected]> To: [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] cM segments for close ancestors Ann, this image seems to be blacked out...  Mary Alice

I'm not certain this is what you're asking, but longer segments generally mean that your common ancestor is more recent. That is a broad statement about large samples, and there is a lot of variability in individual cases. Perhaps this diagram of segments found between a mother/son and their cousin will serve to illustrate the range of what you might see going from one generation to the next: http://dnacousins.com/Fam_Inheritance_recomb_example.GIF Ann Turner On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 8:29 PM, Karen Hodges <[email protected]> wrote: > Just wondering.... > > Since we are suppose to have OUR parents, grandparents and great > grandparents DNA in our cells with older generations randomly represented. > > If a parent and child test- are the longer segments they have in common > most likely that of the parent surname and the branches of the grandparents > and Great Grandparents. > > If this is right would the longest segment most likely represent say the > parent line and then the next size segments the grandparents and the next > the great grandparents? > > Karen > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Interesting, " . . . There are two wildcards in all of this. One is that there are a couple of companies out there with radically different sequencing technologies. Right now, they either have no hardware on the market, or the hardware they do have isn't competitive. But the very different nature of the technology makes future progress difficult to predict. The other wildcard is storage and processing time. Six hundred Gigabases every week means filling up a 3TB drive in a month, and the price per Gigabase has been dropping much more quickly than the price per Gigabyte for several years now. Plus, all that data has to be heavily processed before it can be used for any sort of medical or biological analysis. In the end, the price of computing and storage may start putting a floor on the plunging cost of sequencing."

Thanks Tim and Sam I was just trying to think of a logical way of choosing which branches to look at with trying to find a connection to another match when neither of us have genealogy that overlaps. Most of my matches are with people in the USA whose trees haven't gone back overseas and my ancestry is British and Irish. Sam thanks for mentioning about IBD and IBS being together in a segment; I haven't heard of this. Karen On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 7:19 AM, Sam Eaton <[email protected]> wrote: > Karen, > > To expand a bit on Tim's, ". . . essentially true." We are dealing with > randomness and chaos(used as a mathematical term). So, be prepared for the > instances when things don't exactly follow your guideline. Watch out for, > among other things, IBS segments attached at the ends of shorter IBD > segments. Dr Turner has gone into great detail on these. > > Still, it is a reasonable, though not infallible, guideline. > > Sam > > ------------------------------- > > Dear Karen, > Crossovers break up the long segments of DNA with each successive > generation, so what you are suggesting below is essentially true. You have > to do a chromosome by chromosome analysis to see which segments came from > which grandparent, great grandparent, etc. > Sincerely, > Tim Janzen > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I wonder if your percentages run higher than mine because of compound segments: short segments that butt up against each other to make it look like one continuous segment. This is FTDNA's explanation for this phenomenon, but I haven't yet encountered a real-life case. I can see it would be more likely in an endogamous population like your Mennonite ancestry. Do you have contact information for some of the 7+ cM cases that are IBS? Ann Turner On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Tim Janzen <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Ann and others, > I decided to download the Ancestry Finder matches from 23andMe for > my parents, my wife's parents, my wife, and me. I then sorted the data to > remove the anonymous matches. I then compared my wife's and my matches to > our parents' matches to see if any of my wife's or my matches in Ancestry > Finder were not found in the Ancestry Finder matches for our parents. > Below > is an analysis of the results: > > cMs %IBD %IBS > >10 100 (51/51) 0 > 9-10 87 (14/16) 13 > 8-9 91 (31/34) 9 > 7-8 79 (33/42) 21 > 6-7 67 (65/97) 33 > 5-6 43 (80/185) 57 > > This information complements the FTDNA Family Finder data I recently > posted > at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry > .com/th/read/AUTOSOMAL-DNA/2012-01/13260977 > 07 and your data below. Overall the results are similar between both > analyses except that I got a significantly higher percentage of matching > segments that are IBD between 7 and 8 cMs with 23andMe data than I got with > Family Finder data. Collectively, your data and my data suggest that John > Walden's projections for the percentage of matching segments that are IBD > between 5 and 9 cMs are significantly on the low side. It would appear > that > almost all matches over 11 cMs in length are IBD. It seems prudent to look > for genealogical connections for all matches between 5 and 8 cMs, but we > shouldn't be surprised if we can't find a genealogical connection due to > the > fact that either the connection is too far back in time or because the > match > was IBS in the first place. If other people have two parent/one child trio > data at 23andMe or Family Finder it would be interesting to see their > analyses as well. > Sincerely, > Tim Janzen >

Just wondering.... Since we are suppose to have OUR parents, grandparents and great grandparents DNA in our cells with older generations randomly represented. If a parent and child test- are the longer segments they have in common most likely that of the parent surname and the branches of the grandparents and Great Grandparents. If this is right would the longest segment most likely represent say the parent line and then the next size segments the grandparents and the next the great grandparents? Karen

Karen, To expand a bit on Tim's, ". . . essentially true." We are dealing with randomness and chaos(used as a mathematical term). So, be prepared for the instances when things don't exactly follow your guideline. Watch out for, among other things, IBS segments attached at the ends of shorter IBD segments. Dr Turner has gone into great detail on these. Still, it is a reasonable, though not infallible, guideline. Sam ------------------------------- Dear Karen, Crossovers break up the long segments of DNA with each successive generation, so what you are suggesting below is essentially true. You have to do a chromosome by chromosome analysis to see which segments came from which grandparent, great grandparent, etc. Sincerely, Tim Janzen

The allele frequencies would certainly have a bearing on how easy it is to obtain a run of matching SNPs. However, there's no easy consolidated way to get that information. I suspect that it's not a major factor, since it's quite rare to achieve a long run of half-identical SNPs when I use David Pike's utility on unrelated people, and opposite homozygotes crop up quite frequently. You can push the required number of SNPs down to one to get a feel for this (and allow no mismatches) -- but just do it for a fragment of the download because the output will be long. http://www.math.mun.ca/~dapike/FF23utils/pair-comp.php The exception for long runs of SNPs is the HLA region on chromosome 6, which has a lot of know variants, but the recombination rate is low, so the runs tend to be in the vicinity of 1-3 cM. 23andMe has a list of about a dozen regions where they require more SNPs (up to 1200). The FTDNA FAQ states "The Family Finder software clusters the SNPs into sets that are about 50 to 100 SNPs long. The Bioinformatics team has predefined the SNP sets based on contributing SNPs' reliability, variability, average centiMorgans (cM)<http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=21#663>, density, and other statistical considerations." (It also states there is a hard stop at the centromere, due to the low number of SNPs, but I think that may be obsolete.) http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=17#798 I'm not altogether convinced that FTDNA's SNP sets improve the matching algorithm, but that's proprietary information. Ann On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 2:35 AM, r0berts0n <[email protected]> wrote: > Does anyone know how smart the matching algorithms are for Family Finder? > My understanding is that each SNP in the 700,000+ has been selected because > it has a useful allelle frequency in the general population. I don't know > what the ranges are but presumably they run from 50/50 to 90/10 or beyond? > If there are runs of consecutive SNPs that have a 90%/10% frequency in the > European population, then a higher number of consecutive matching SNPs > would > be required to ensure an IBD match. Do the high numbers of IBS matches for > 10-11cM occur in particular locations eg Chromosome 6? > > Duncan >

Thanks Tim I'm really surprised at the number of SNPs in those IBS segments and equally surprised at the 10cM length. The SNP numbers in particular are way over the 700 I have seen stated to be long enough for a IBD match. I'm trying to think of reasons for such long IBS segments and here are my thoughts: 1. There is a very low allele variability in the population in those regions. However if that were so, then lots of people would be seeing those particular segments matching others and I don't think that is so? 2. The segments aren't really that long and Family Finder is tolerating too many mismatches. If that were so the the IBD segments would also be too long and I haven't heard anyone say that is so. I think it is important to understand why this is happening because if we could easily identify IBS segments then we could ignore them and save time and effort in trying to identify matches. Do you have any other ideas for the existence of long IBS segments? Duncan -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tim Janzen Sent: 11 January 2012 08:05 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] SUBJECT: How do you work a 5 way FF matchwith few clues Dear Duncan, I don't know how "smart" the matching algorism is for FF, but based on the results of my FF data, it seems to do a fairly good job of finding all or almost all of the appropriate matches assuming that the matching segment is over 9 cMs or so. You can find the allele frequencies for individual SNPs by going to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp and entering the SNP of interest. If you have quite a few people on your 23andMe account then you can get a rough idea of the allele frequencies for individual SNPs by going to the "browse raw data" section, entering the SNP of interest and then reviewing the genotypes for the people on your account. The 3 matches for my wife and I that FF reported as being IBS that were between 10 and 11 cMs were on chromosome 20 (1900 SNPs), chromosome 7 (2400 SNPs), and chromosome 15 (2261 SNPs). Sincerely, Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of r0berts0n Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 2:35 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] SUBJECT: How do you work a 5 way FF match with few clues Does anyone know how smart the matching algorithms are for Family Finder? My understanding is that each SNP in the 700,000+ has been selected because it has a useful allelle frequency in the general population. I don't know what the ranges are but presumably they run from 50/50 to 90/10 or beyond? If there are runs of consecutive SNPs that have a 90%/10% frequency in the European population, then a higher number of consecutive matching SNPs would be required to ensure an IBD match. Do the high numbers of IBS matches for 10-11cM occur in particular locations eg Chromosome 6? Duncan ______________________________ For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4735 - Release Date: 01/10/12

Dear Duncan, I don't know how "smart" the matching algorism is for FF, but based on the results of my FF data, it seems to do a fairly good job of finding all or almost all of the appropriate matches assuming that the matching segment is over 9 cMs or so. You can find the allele frequencies for individual SNPs by going to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp and entering the SNP of interest. If you have quite a few people on your 23andMe account then you can get a rough idea of the allele frequencies for individual SNPs by going to the "browse raw data" section, entering the SNP of interest and then reviewing the genotypes for the people on your account. The 3 matches for my wife and I that FF reported as being IBS that were between 10 and 11 cMs were on chromosome 20 (1900 SNPs), chromosome 7 (2400 SNPs), and chromosome 15 (2261 SNPs). Sincerely, Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of r0berts0n Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 2:35 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] SUBJECT: How do you work a 5 way FF match with few clues Does anyone know how smart the matching algorithms are for Family Finder? My understanding is that each SNP in the 700,000+ has been selected because it has a useful allelle frequency in the general population. I don't know what the ranges are but presumably they run from 50/50 to 90/10 or beyond? If there are runs of consecutive SNPs that have a 90%/10% frequency in the European population, then a higher number of consecutive matching SNPs would be required to ensure an IBD match. Do the high numbers of IBS matches for 10-11cM occur in particular locations eg Chromosome 6? Duncan

Dear Karen, Crossovers break up the long segments of DNA with each successive generation, so what you are suggesting below is essentially true. You have to do a chromosome by chromosome analysis to see which segments came from which grandparent, great grandparent, etc. Sincerely, Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Karen Hodges Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 8:29 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] cM segments for close ancestors If a parent and child test- are the longer segments they have in common most likely that of the parent surname and the branches of the grandparents and Great Grandparents. If this is right would the longest segment most likely represent say the parent line and then the next size segments the grandparents and the next the great grandparents? Karen

Dear Ann and others, I decided to download the Ancestry Finder matches from 23andMe for my parents, my wife's parents, my wife, and me. I then sorted the data to remove the anonymous matches. I then compared my wife's and my matches to our parents' matches to see if any of my wife's or my matches in Ancestry Finder were not found in the Ancestry Finder matches for our parents. Below is an analysis of the results: cMs %IBD %IBS >10 100 (51/51) 0 9-10 87 (14/16) 13 8-9 91 (31/34) 9 7-8 79 (33/42) 21 6-7 67 (65/97) 33 5-6 43 (80/185) 57 This information complements the FTDNA Family Finder data I recently posted at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AUTOSOMAL-DNA/2012-01/13260977 07 and your data below. Overall the results are similar between both analyses except that I got a significantly higher percentage of matching segments that are IBD between 7 and 8 cMs with 23andMe data than I got with Family Finder data. Collectively, your data and my data suggest that John Walden's projections for the percentage of matching segments that are IBD between 5 and 9 cMs are significantly on the low side. It would appear that almost all matches over 11 cMs in length are IBD. It seems prudent to look for genealogical connections for all matches between 5 and 8 cMs, but we shouldn't be surprised if we can't find a genealogical connection due to the fact that either the connection is too far back in time or because the match was IBS in the first place. If other people have two parent/one child trio data at 23andMe or Family Finder it would be interesting to see their analyses as well. Sincerely, Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ann Turner Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 8:47 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] SUBJECT: How do you work a 5 way FF match with few clues ? These numbers seem high to me. This is not a strictly comparable breakdown, but I downloaded Ancestry Finder matches from 23andMe for a child and two parents. The child had 224 segments with names attached, 65 of which were not found in either parent. By segment size: > 7 cM: 2/73 3% 6-7 cM: 9/39 23% 5-6 cM 54/112 48% Ann Turner

Dear Jim, I agree that your cup is at least half full and is it almost completely full for your matches over 10 cMs in length. The overall percentage of my wife's and my matches that were IBD where the match was 5 cMs or longer was 69%. If I change the match criteria to those that 23andMe uses (7 cMs and 700 SNPs), then the overall the overall percentage of my wife's and my matches that were IBD was 84.6% (137/162). Everyone of the matches that were IBD that were between 3.5 and 5 cMs in length also had a larger matching segment that was IBD that was over 5 cMs. Sincerely, Tim -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim Bartlett Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 3:46 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] SUBJECT: How do you work a 5 way FF match with few clues ? Tim Even without my coffee yet, I can look at this data and say my cup is half full;>) As a genealogist, there's gold in them thar hills! Even at 4cM 1/6 are IBD. The FTDNA cutoff of 7.7cM still gives at least a 50/50 chance (probably 75%, if you draw the curve for your data), or better, that each one they report is IBD. Or 3 of 4 are probably IBD. I'm not that good with statistics. My estimate that 3/4 of FF matches are IBD, is based on the 7.7cM or more large segment each one has. I wonder how many of the other 1/4 have at least one of the smaller segments that is IBD? I thought the FTDNA algorithm included other factors, that increased the probability that our FF matches were really cousins - this would be the icing on the cake for me (and really jazz up my presentations) Tim, could you look at your data again, and see what percentage of your FF matches have no IBD segments at all?

Does anyone know how smart the matching algorithms are for Family Finder? My understanding is that each SNP in the 700,000+ has been selected because it has a useful allelle frequency in the general population. I don't know what the ranges are but presumably they run from 50/50 to 90/10 or beyond? If there are runs of consecutive SNPs that have a 90%/10% frequency in the European population, then a higher number of consecutive matching SNPs would be required to ensure an IBD match. Do the high numbers of IBS matches for 10-11cM occur in particular locations eg Chromosome 6? Duncan Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 00:28:27 -0800 From: "Tim Janzen" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] SUBJECT: How do you work a 5 way FF match with few clues ? To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear All, I decided to download the latest Family Finder data for my wife's parents, my wife, my parents, and me yesterday. I then analyzed the data so see how many people appear in the FF match lists for my wife and me who don't appear in the FF match lists our parents. I then used that data to create my own statistics regarding the percentage of matches at various segment lengths in cMs to see how my data compares to the statistics that John Walden generated. Here are my results: cMs %IBD %IBS >11 100 (52/52) 0 10-11 80 (12/15) 20 9-10 93 (25/27) 7 8-9 81 (34/42) 19 7-8 46 (11/24) 54 6-7 67 (4/6) 33 5-6 40 (6/15) 60 4-5 20 (10/51) 80 3.5-4 17 (11/66) 83 Below are John Walden's results from his analysis that I posted in another message several days ago: cM %IBD %IBS 10 99 1 9 80 20 8 50 50 7 30 70 6 20 80 5 5 95 My results would suggest that a higher percentage of matches under 9 cMs in length are IBD than John's analysis would suggest. In any case, it would appear that a significant percentage of matches in the 6-9 cM range are IBS. If any of the rest of you have two parent/one child trio data in Family Finder it would be interesting to see if your results are similar to mine. Sincerely, Tim Janzen

Just a reminder to please trim your backquotes. This has been a long thread with many long messages, which makes it all the worse if you fail to trim your backquotes: Please see: http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html#backquotes Diana AUTOSOMAL-DNA ListAdmin

Hi Dwight Just tried to open the file in excel again [tried several times before but got an error and only part display] this time both files opened and had 708093 rows in both. Not sure what caused the problem before... unless the computer was trying to open with excel 2003 which is also on the computer. Thank you and everyone else for your help Karen On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Dwight Holmes <[email protected]>wrote: > how many rows in your spreadsheet, Karen? True 2007 (.xlsx) format > allows over a million rows, and columns up to XFD - if you only have > 65,536 rows and IV rows, (IIRC) then it's giving you its 'compatible' > format rather than full-fledged 2007 file format. > > On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 9:21 PM, Karen Hodges <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi > > > > I am using 2007 but it didn't fit all the information only chromosome 1 > and > > 2 bases > > > > Karen > > > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Dwight Holmes <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > >> Karen - It's probably not the answer you want to hear, but the newer > >> version of Excel ("2007," I believe) handles far more rows and > >> columns, and can handle these files. there may be another solution, > >> but i'm not aware of it. > >> > >> On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:00 PM, Karen Hodges <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > I know this has probably been discussed before but I can't find it in > the > >> > archives; how do I display the raw data please of my family finder > test > >> and > >> > my dad's in an application? > >> > > >> > I have tried excel but it says the file is too large to display and > only > >> > shows the first few chromosomes[?? it lists a lot of 1's and then a > lot > >> of > >> > 2's which I think must be the first few chromosomes]. > >> > > >> > I would like to compare segment matches we have so any suggestions on > how > >> > best to do this daunting task or if there is some software to use that > >> > would be handy. > >> > > >> > Karen > >> > >> > >> ______________________________ > >> For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please > see: > >> http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ______________________________ > > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please > see: > > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi I am using 2007 but it didn't fit all the information only chromosome 1 and 2 bases Karen On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Dwight Holmes <[email protected]>wrote: > Karen - It's probably not the answer you want to hear, but the newer > version of Excel ("2007," I believe) handles far more rows and > columns, and can handle these files. there may be another solution, > but i'm not aware of it. > > On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:00 PM, Karen Hodges <[email protected]> wrote: > > I know this has probably been discussed before but I can't find it in the > > archives; how do I display the raw data please of my family finder test > and > > my dad's in an application? > > > > I have tried excel but it says the file is too large to display and only > > shows the first few chromosomes[?? it lists a lot of 1's and then a lot > of > > 2's which I think must be the first few chromosomes]. > > > > I would like to compare segment matches we have so any suggestions on how > > best to do this daunting task or if there is some software to use that > > would be handy. > > > > Karen > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >