Dear list, I seem to recall seeing that for purposes of amount of DNA shared, a cousin once removed is roughly equivalent to the next higher number (e.g. 2nd cousin once removed is = to third cousin). Is this correct? What about cousins twice or thrice removed? How are those amounts quantified? Thank you. Barton

This is very helpful, Tim, thank you very much. I will concentrate on the second cousins I have located and continue seeking those out for testing. By the way, I just took the Family Finder, at last convinced of the benefits of my testing while I have both parents' results. I am rereading your instructions on phasing and reviewing the spreadsheets, and am excited about trying this out. It's a brave new world! Regards, Barton -----Original Message----- From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Tim Janzen Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 9:03 PM To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Who to test ?? Dear Barton, This really boils down to how many first, 2nd, and 3rd cousins you have to test and how much money you want to spend on testing. If you have a lot of money and a lot of 3rd cousins willing to test, then that would be a reasonable way to go. I personally think you get the most "bang for the buck" with 2nd cousins. You get up to 3% to 4% of your genome mapped for each 2nd cousin you test. If were you I would probably start by seeing how many 2nd cousins you can round up for testing. Test them and see how your chromosome map looks at that point. If need be use first cousins to fill in the rest of the gaps. For my mom I have mapped a little over 80% of her DNA using data from 2 first cousins, 12 second cousins, 6 third cousins, and a smattering of more distant relatives. I wish she had more first cousins available for testing so that I could map the remaining 20%. Instead, I will need to keep pursuing 2nd cousins for testing and hope that some of those help me whittle away at the remaining 20% I still need to map. Keep in mind that there is a diminishing return for each 2nd or 3rd cousin from the same family you test. Five of the twelve 2nd cousins of my mom that I have tested are siblings. Needless to say, I didn't get that much new data to map from the last several of these siblings that I tested. Sincerely, Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Barton Lewis Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 8:41 PM To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Who to test ?? Pardon, list if this query has been posted many times before, but I have the opportunity to test a range of 1st, 2nd and 3rd cousins of both my parents, and I would like guidance on how to get the most bang for my buck. I can see potential arguments for especially 1st v. 2nd cousins, where the relationship is still close enough to yield a significant number of matches. I guess the question comes down to the number of matches you get vs. the degree of isolation; does anyone have particular thoughts on this? Thanks, Barton ______________________________ For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Barton, This really boils down to how many first, 2nd, and 3rd cousins you have to test and how much money you want to spend on testing. If you have a lot of money and a lot of 3rd cousins willing to test, then that would be a reasonable way to go. I personally think you get the most "bang for the buck" with 2nd cousins. You get up to 3% to 4% of your genome mapped for each 2nd cousin you test. If were you I would probably start by seeing how many 2nd cousins you can round up for testing. Test them and see how your chromosome map looks at that point. If need be use first cousins to fill in the rest of the gaps. For my mom I have mapped a little over 80% of her DNA using data from 2 first cousins, 12 second cousins, 6 third cousins, and a smattering of more distant relatives. I wish she had more first cousins available for testing so that I could map the remaining 20%. Instead, I will need to keep pursuing 2nd cousins for testing and hope that some of those help me whittle away at the remaining 20% I still need to map. Keep in mind that there is a diminishing return for each 2nd or 3rd cousin from the same family you test. Five of the twelve 2nd cousins of my mom that I have tested are siblings. Needless to say, I didn't get that much new data to map from the last several of these siblings that I tested. Sincerely, Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Barton Lewis Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 8:41 PM To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Who to test ?? Pardon, list if this query has been posted many times before, but I have the opportunity to test a range of 1st, 2nd and 3rd cousins of both my parents, and I would like guidance on how to get the most bang for my buck. I can see potential arguments for especially 1st v. 2nd cousins, where the relationship is still close enough to yield a significant number of matches. I guess the question comes down to the number of matches you get vs. the degree of isolation; does anyone have particular thoughts on this? Thanks, Barton

Pardon, list if this query has been posted many times before, but I have the opportunity to test a range of 1st, 2nd and 3rd cousins of both my parents, and I would like guidance on how to get the most bang for my buck. I can see potential arguments for especially 1st v. 2nd cousins, where the relationship is still close enough to yield a significant number of matches. I guess the question comes down to the number of matches you get vs. the degree of isolation; does anyone have particular thoughts on this? Thanks, Barton

Tim, TY, just the encouragement I was hoping for :-) While I know it's much too soon to actually label this segment as coming from the immigrant ancestor, I think I have enough to red flag it. Of course, it could be from a female who married a Carrico........ I can only to hope to someday stumble across a will where grandpa is leaving something to his Carrico grandchildren!!! On chromosome 14, there doesn't appear to be any matches in common with any of the 3 individuals involved. There are other segments to study, but this particular one caught my interest. Will work on the others next. Uh oh, I just typed the surname in question w/o thinking, but don't think I'm really sharing anything here about living people who have tested by doing so. There is a Y-DNA group for this surname who Diana Matthiesen administers (a brick walled Carrico descendant herself). I believe (at last count) 23 have tested that match each other and there are no matches with other surnames (or didn't undergo a surname change in their linage) even at 12 markers. Roughly, only 25% of those tested can trace their roots back to the immigrant Peter Carricoe. Diana has others tested with the same or similar surname from Portugal, Turkey and Greece, none who have yet to match with our immigrants descendants. Will Family Finder testing help us to figure out where our immigrant ancestor came from? I don't know, perhaps in time. I'm more interested in trying to break down some of these brick walls here in the US and figure out how we all conect back to Peter. I'm hoping with a story about at least loosening a brick in the wall, even if it didn't topple the wall, might encourage others to test, esp. some of those who have already had the Y-DNA test done. I do have 3 pending tests from my own family, both of my mom's brothers and now mom's first cousin. I'm thinking I need to go back a generation or 2 & find some more distant cousins to test? Again Tim, TY Linda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Janzen" <tjanzen@comcast.net> To: <autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 2:31 AM Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Matches with a common surname > Dear Linda, > It seems to me that you are doing everything that you can do with > the data you have at this time. If you are trying to bridge a gap of 3 to 4 > generations from the 1670s to the 1770s using autosomal DNA, I think you > will have trouble doing that with absolute certainty from a scientific > standpoint. In any case, this doesn't prevent you from making the logical > assumption at this point in time that your great aunt and these other two > matches share a segment that was originally carried by the immigrant > ancestor in the 1670s or his wife. Another angle you can work on is to > aggressively research the genealogies of any matches on this particularly > segment of chromosome 14 in Family Finder, 23andMe and GEDmatch. You may > find additional genealogical connections that link the 3 matches back to > each other or to others who also share this HIR. > Sincerely, > Tim Janzen > > -----Original Message----- > From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Linda Boorom > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 1:42 AM > To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Matches with a common surname > > Tim, > > But, back to the match in question. The most distant ancestor for each of > the 3 Project Members was > born in MD 1775-1785. One line migrated from MD to AL by 1810, the other 2 > to KY in the same time > frame. Of the 2 to KY, they lived in different counties and only my line > stayed in KY. The son of > the 3rd mda migrated to CA. It's remote that any of the 3 share a common > ancestor previous to 1775 > or there abt. > > Back to chromosone 14 and the segment in qiestion. Only the 1 great aunt > matches both gentlemen. > Neither great aunt match each other on 14 until after this segment. > > The 2nd great aunt has 2 matches in this area. One with a cousin through her > fathers mother, the > other through her mother's mother. Since the 2 sisters don't match each > other here, I am presuming > that the first great aunt's DNA is from either of her 2 grandfather's & not > her 2 grandmother's > > My mother & I match the first great aunt overlapping this segment, but even > through we both match > the AL gentleman on other segments, we don't match him on this segment and > neither of us match the > CA gentleman at all. > > At this time, there aren't any other matches to compare and determine for > certainty which > grandfather. It's certainly possible it c/b the maternal grandfather, as he > too is a brick wall of > mine going back to the same time period in MD. However, because of the > common surname shared by all > 3, it seems more likely that my great aunts DNA on this segment came from > her father's father. > > HELP! > > Linda > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the > word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Dear Linda, Another suggestion I have is that you test a child of your great aunt if you haven't already done so. This would allows you to separate your great aunt's matches into those who match her on one autosomal chromosome and those who match her on the opposite autosomal chromosome. This is most helpful for Family Finder, but the recent changes in Family Finder as discussed at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2013-10/13807471 83 make the results from children somewhat less helpful than they had been previously. It is definitely helpful to test 2nd and 3rd cousins. I particularly appreciate the results from 2nd cousins since each 2nd cousin allows you to map up to 3% to 4% of your genome. I would rather have results from 4 2nd cousins than one first cousin even though the amount of shared DNA would be roughly the same since the data from 2nd cousins allows you to eliminate 3/4 of your pedigree chart from consideration when you are reviewing data from matches who share a segment with you as well as with one of your 2nd cousins. In terms of the immigrant ancestor, I would like to encourage all of us to feel freer to mention publicly the ancestors we are researching. These people are historical figures and there is nothing wrong with mentioning them publicly. If people want to withhold the names of the descendents who were tested that is fine, but there was certainly nothing wrong with you stating that you are researching a Carrico ancestor. Ultimately where we need to go as a genetic genealogy community is to have a public database of phased autosomal haplotypes linked to specific ancestors. In terms of using autosomal DNA to help you determine where the ancestor was from, this is a challenging problem. The best you can do at this point is to review the origin of any haplotypes that 23andMe has linked to a specific region in Ancestry Composition or that the admixture utilities in GEDmatch have linked to a specific region. Earlier this morning I posted a message on the R-U106 list that addresses this topic. I am copying that message below: "I would like to build on Charles' response. Autosomal SNPs (and short or long phased autosomal haplotypes) must be carefully tracked back through time to a specific region. That can sometimes be done fairly easily, particularly in situations where the SNPs have medical implications (such as the SNPs that cause lactase persistence, Factor V Leiden deficiency, hemochromatosis, etc). However, in most cases it is a laborious process to trace phased autosomal haplotypes back through time. I think that it is particularly hard to trace phased autosomal haplotypes to a specific location in Europe due to the fact that people have been moving all over Europe a huge amount over the past 7000 years or so. What would be ideal would be to have frequency maps by country for many relatively short phased autosomal haplotypes (haplotypes between .1 cM and 1 cM). I believe that 23andMe and Ancestry.com could generate those if they were willing to, but I suspect that both companies will keep this information locked up in proprietary databases for a long time. I think that the best that any one person can do this is to map their own chromosomes as best as they possibly can using techniques such may be found in the basic guide that Emily Aulicino and I wrote at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21841126/Basics%20of%20Chromosome%20Mapp ing.docx. Establishing the precise time when any one autosomal SNP occurred is more challenging. Looking at the regional distribution of that SNP can be helpful in this regard, but for "private" autosomal SNPs we simply don't have large enough databases we can use to check for things such as this. The autosomal SNPs that are included on the larger SNP chips such as the Omni Express chip and Geno 2.0 are likely to be at least 2000 or more years old." Sincerely, Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Linda Boorom Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 11:59 AM To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Matches with a common surname Tim, Uh oh, I just typed the surname in question w/o thinking, but don't think I'm really sharing anything here about living people who have tested by doing so. Will Family Finder testing help us to figure out where our immigrant ancestor came from? I don't know, perhaps in time. I'm more interested in trying to break down some of these brick walls here in the US and figure out how we all conect back to Peter. I do have 3 pending tests from my own family, both of my mom's brothers and now mom's first cousin. I'm thinking I need to go back a generation or 2 & find some more distant cousins to test? Linda

Dear Linda, It seems to me that you are doing everything that you can do with the data you have at this time. If you are trying to bridge a gap of 3 to 4 generations from the 1670s to the 1770s using autosomal DNA, I think you will have trouble doing that with absolute certainty from a scientific standpoint. In any case, this doesn't prevent you from making the logical assumption at this point in time that your great aunt and these other two matches share a segment that was originally carried by the immigrant ancestor in the 1670s or his wife. Another angle you can work on is to aggressively research the genealogies of any matches on this particularly segment of chromosome 14 in Family Finder, 23andMe and GEDmatch. You may find additional genealogical connections that link the 3 matches back to each other or to others who also share this HIR. Sincerely, Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Linda Boorom Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 1:42 AM To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Matches with a common surname Tim, But, back to the match in question. The most distant ancestor for each of the 3 Project Members was born in MD 1775-1785. One line migrated from MD to AL by 1810, the other 2 to KY in the same time frame. Of the 2 to KY, they lived in different counties and only my line stayed in KY. The son of the 3rd mda migrated to CA. It's remote that any of the 3 share a common ancestor previous to 1775 or there abt. Back to chromosone 14 and the segment in qiestion. Only the 1 great aunt matches both gentlemen. Neither great aunt match each other on 14 until after this segment. The 2nd great aunt has 2 matches in this area. One with a cousin through her fathers mother, the other through her mother's mother. Since the 2 sisters don't match each other here, I am presuming that the first great aunt's DNA is from either of her 2 grandfather's & not her 2 grandmother's My mother & I match the first great aunt overlapping this segment, but even through we both match the AL gentleman on other segments, we don't match him on this segment and neither of us match the CA gentleman at all. At this time, there aren't any other matches to compare and determine for certainty which grandfather. It's certainly possible it c/b the maternal grandfather, as he too is a brick wall of mine going back to the same time period in MD. However, because of the common surname shared by all 3, it seems more likely that my great aunts DNA on this segment came from her father's father. HELP! Linda

good to know, thank you. On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Jeff Snavely wrote: > There could be a glitch in the system that is preventing the match > from showing up. Earlier this week I noticed that the chromosome > browser at FTDNA quit working for my dad's kit. The list of his > matches shows up in the selection box on the left, and it says the > number of matching segments in the selected matches list at the top > when I select some of them, but the actual chromosome image, tables > and downloaded csv files are all blank as if he doesn't have any > segments in common with anybody that I select. I'm not having any > problems using the chromosome browser for any of the other kits that I > administer. I have reported the problem to them and they sent back a > message acknowledging that they received the report, but it still > hasn't been fixed as of this morning. > > On 10/3/2013 9:25 PM, Barton Lewis wrote: >> I did what was suggested and asked James and Phil (my mother's >> matches) to >> send me their downloaded results for chromosome 20 where they share >> overlapping DNA with my mother and her sister. James and Phil are ICW >> each >> other. Phil shows the following segment data for James: >> >> 42994328 51684283 16.90 2884 >> >> But James does not show Phil in his chromosome browser download on >> chromosome 20, or anywhere in his file (he sent me the whole file). >> >> James also sent me the downloaded match file listing his matches, >> their >> contact info and amount of shared DNA etc. and Phil IS on the list >> with >> 47.02 total cM and 16.9 longest segment. >> >> These files were downloaded by James and Phil using dnagedcom.com. >> Everyone >> mentioned here tested at FTDNA. >> >> How could Phil be missing from James's chromosome browser download? >

Thanks, Tim. I will suggest to James that he contact FTDNA about the issue. Barton On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 01:19 AM, Tim Janzen wrote: > Dear Barton, > This is a little bit perplexing. The only reason I can think of > right now that Phil wouldn't be appearing in James' chromosome browser > download is one or more genotyping errors in Phil's and or James' data > that > is preventing FTDNA from calling this a match in James' chromosome > browser > but not in his match list. You could look at their raw data files to > see if > there are any mismatches in this relatively long run of 2884 SNPs in > an HIR. > If you don't find any mismatches in the SNP data then I would suggest > you > contact FTDNA to let them know that there is a problem here and > suggest that > they look into why Phil is missing from James' chromosome browser > download. > Either way, it would be reasonable to point this situation out to > FTDNA, > because something isn't right here. > Sincerely, > Tim Janzen > > -----Original Message----- > From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Barton Lewis > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 7:25 PM > To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] ICW - inconsistencies > > I did what was suggested and asked James and Phil (my mother's > matches) to > send me their downloaded results for chromosome 20 where they share > overlapping DNA with my mother and her sister. James and Phil are ICW > each > other. Phil shows the following segment data for James: > > 42994328 51684283 16.90 2884 > > But James does not show Phil in his chromosome browser download on > chromosome 20, or anywhere in his file (he sent me the whole file). > > James also sent me the downloaded match file listing his matches, > their > contact info and amount of shared DNA etc. and Phil IS on the list > with > 47.02 total cM and 16.9 longest segment. > > These files were downloaded by James and Phil using dnagedcom.com. > Everyone > mentioned here tested at FTDNA. > > How could Phil be missing from James's chromosome browser download? > > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please > see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

There could be a glitch in the system that is preventing the match from showing up. Earlier this week I noticed that the chromosome browser at FTDNA quit working for my dad's kit. The list of his matches shows up in the selection box on the left, and it says the number of matching segments in the selected matches list at the top when I select some of them, but the actual chromosome image, tables and downloaded csv files are all blank as if he doesn't have any segments in common with anybody that I select. I'm not having any problems using the chromosome browser for any of the other kits that I administer. I have reported the problem to them and they sent back a message acknowledging that they received the report, but it still hasn't been fixed as of this morning. On 10/3/2013 9:25 PM, Barton Lewis wrote: > I did what was suggested and asked James and Phil (my mother's matches) to > send me their downloaded results for chromosome 20 where they share > overlapping DNA with my mother and her sister. James and Phil are ICW each > other. Phil shows the following segment data for James: > > 42994328 51684283 16.90 2884 > > But James does not show Phil in his chromosome browser download on > chromosome 20, or anywhere in his file (he sent me the whole file). > > James also sent me the downloaded match file listing his matches, their > contact info and amount of shared DNA etc. and Phil IS on the list with > 47.02 total cM and 16.9 longest segment. > > These files were downloaded by James and Phil using dnagedcom.com. Everyone > mentioned here tested at FTDNA. > > How could Phil be missing from James's chromosome browser download? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Tim Janzen > Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2013 10:43 AM > To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] ICW - inconsistencies > > Dear Barton, > One of the most significant deficiencies in Family Finder is the > fact that you can't compare your matches against each other to see which of > them match each other. 23andMe allowed their customers to do this over a > year ago and it has been a huge help for genetic genealogists who are doing > chromosome mapping. FTDNA should follow suit. The best you can do under > the circumstances with Family Finder is to ask each of your matches on a > specific segment to check their match list to see if the other people who > match you on that particular segment also match them. If you have that > information then you can assign one group to one chromosome and the other > group to the opposite chromosome. There will still likely be some people > that you can't assign to one chromosome or the other because they don't > match anyone else that you match on that segment. At least some of those > matches will be IBS. I agree with Melissa Robards that it would be > reasonable to ask all of your Family Finder matches to also upload their > data to GEDmatch so you can run comparisons between various matches there. > However, some people won't be willing to upload their data to GEDmatch. I > frankly don't find the ICW feature in Family Finder very helpful because of > the fact that I have already mapped my close relatives' chromosomes using > data from first, second and third cousins who have already done Family > Finder or have been tested elsewhere. > Sincerely, > Tim Janzen > > -----Original Message----- > From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Barton Lewis > Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2013 9:25 AM > To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com > Subject: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] ICW - inconsistencies > > I have a situation where ten people are overlapping on a segment from > 21995381-40581772 on chr 8. There is no rhyme or reason as to who is ICW > with who in that there are different permutations for many of the matches in > terms of who they are ICW, such that I cannot tell who is on one side of the > chr and who is on the other. There is uniformity for some of them in terms > of who they are ICW, but not for others and certainly not as a whole, so > that I cannot neatly assign some of the ten to one side and the others to > the other. Does the ICW feature fail to pick up matches at a certain level? > The overlapping segments are all either 8.25, 9.78, 9.92, 11.05 or 15.85 cM. > > Thanks, > > Barton >

Dear Barton, This is a little bit perplexing. The only reason I can think of right now that Phil wouldn't be appearing in James' chromosome browser download is one or more genotyping errors in Phil's and or James' data that is preventing FTDNA from calling this a match in James' chromosome browser but not in his match list. You could look at their raw data files to see if there are any mismatches in this relatively long run of 2884 SNPs in an HIR. If you don't find any mismatches in the SNP data then I would suggest you contact FTDNA to let them know that there is a problem here and suggest that they look into why Phil is missing from James' chromosome browser download. Either way, it would be reasonable to point this situation out to FTDNA, because something isn't right here. Sincerely, Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Barton Lewis Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 7:25 PM To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] ICW - inconsistencies I did what was suggested and asked James and Phil (my mother's matches) to send me their downloaded results for chromosome 20 where they share overlapping DNA with my mother and her sister. James and Phil are ICW each other. Phil shows the following segment data for James: 42994328 51684283 16.90 2884 But James does not show Phil in his chromosome browser download on chromosome 20, or anywhere in his file (he sent me the whole file). James also sent me the downloaded match file listing his matches, their contact info and amount of shared DNA etc. and Phil IS on the list with 47.02 total cM and 16.9 longest segment. These files were downloaded by James and Phil using dnagedcom.com. Everyone mentioned here tested at FTDNA. How could Phil be missing from James's chromosome browser download?

I did what was suggested and asked James and Phil (my mother's matches) to send me their downloaded results for chromosome 20 where they share overlapping DNA with my mother and her sister. James and Phil are ICW each other. Phil shows the following segment data for James: 42994328 51684283 16.90 2884 But James does not show Phil in his chromosome browser download on chromosome 20, or anywhere in his file (he sent me the whole file). James also sent me the downloaded match file listing his matches, their contact info and amount of shared DNA etc. and Phil IS on the list with 47.02 total cM and 16.9 longest segment. These files were downloaded by James and Phil using dnagedcom.com. Everyone mentioned here tested at FTDNA. How could Phil be missing from James's chromosome browser download? -----Original Message----- From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Tim Janzen Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2013 10:43 AM To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] ICW - inconsistencies Dear Barton, One of the most significant deficiencies in Family Finder is the fact that you can't compare your matches against each other to see which of them match each other. 23andMe allowed their customers to do this over a year ago and it has been a huge help for genetic genealogists who are doing chromosome mapping. FTDNA should follow suit. The best you can do under the circumstances with Family Finder is to ask each of your matches on a specific segment to check their match list to see if the other people who match you on that particular segment also match them. If you have that information then you can assign one group to one chromosome and the other group to the opposite chromosome. There will still likely be some people that you can't assign to one chromosome or the other because they don't match anyone else that you match on that segment. At least some of those matches will be IBS. I agree with Melissa Robards that it would be reasonable to ask all of your Family Finder matches to also upload their data to GEDmatch so you can run comparisons between various matches there. However, some people won't be willing to upload their data to GEDmatch. I frankly don't find the ICW feature in Family Finder very helpful because of the fact that I have already mapped my close relatives' chromosomes using data from first, second and third cousins who have already done Family Finder or have been tested elsewhere. Sincerely, Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Barton Lewis Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2013 9:25 AM To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] ICW - inconsistencies I have a situation where ten people are overlapping on a segment from 21995381-40581772 on chr 8. There is no rhyme or reason as to who is ICW with who in that there are different permutations for many of the matches in terms of who they are ICW, such that I cannot tell who is on one side of the chr and who is on the other. There is uniformity for some of them in terms of who they are ICW, but not for others and certainly not as a whole, so that I cannot neatly assign some of the ten to one side and the others to the other. Does the ICW feature fail to pick up matches at a certain level? The overlapping segments are all either 8.25, 9.78, 9.92, 11.05 or 15.85 cM. Thanks, Barton ______________________________ For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Linda, My advice is to take Tim's advice. You don't have enough data to make a call yet. So move on to another segment (I estimate you will need to find about 500 MRCAs on 7-20cM segments to map your genome to the most distant ancestors possible with the current technology). To solve this segment you need more matches on it - you can get them by: 1. Testing at other companies 2. Using GEDmatch 3. Recruiting known close relatives to also test. The DNA, and your Matches, are random - sometimes the segment is easy to determine, sometimes it's not. Jim Bartlett On 10/03/13, Linda Boorom<lboorom@fuse.net> wrote: Tim, I have thus far tested myself, both of my parents, the only 2 living siblings of my maternal grandmother, & a 3rd cousin descended from my grandmother's father's brother (3rd cousin to me). Results are pending for both of my mother's brothers. My grandmother had 8 full siblings, all with large families. I could attempt to contact those still living, their probable results would be interesting as for the most part, my grandmother's siblings married distant cousins. I admin. a Family Finder Project for this surname to which we now have 40 members from a dozen or so different lines, most which have a brick wall in trying to surpass the lack of any paper trail in the 1700's back to Peter the immigrant. Many between the different linages match others in the project (and others not yet in the project) not even to mention the amazing number of matches in common between members. But, back to the match in question. The most distant ancestor for each of the 3 Project Members was born in MD 1775-1785. One line migrated from MD to AL by 1810, the other 2 to KY in the same time frame. Of the 2 to KY, they lived in different counties and only my line stayed in KY. The son of the 3rd mda migrated to CA. It's remote that any of the 3 share a common ancestor previous to 1775 or there abt. Of my personal relatives tested, (not incl. my father!) all but one of my great aunts match the gentleman whose branch went to AL. Both great aunts and 3rd cousin match the gentleman whose branch went to CA. Back to chromosone 14 and the segment in qiestion. Only the 1 great aunt matches both gentlemen. Neither great aunt match each other on 14 until after this segment. The 2nd great aunt has 2 matches in this area. One with a cousin through her fathers mother, the other through her mother's mother. Since the 2 sisters don't match each other here, I am presuming that the first great aunt's DNA is from either of her 2 grandfather's & not her 2 grandmother's My mother & I match the first great aunt overlapping this segment, but even through we both match the AL gentleman on other segments, we don't match him on this segment and neither of us match the CA gentleman at all. At this time, there aren't any other matches to compare and determine for certainty which grandfather. It's certainly possible it c/b the maternal grandfather, as he too is a brick wall of mine going back to the same time period in MD. However, because of the common surname shared by all 3, it seems more likely that my great aunts DNA on this segment came from her father's father. HELP! Linda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Janzen" <[1]tjanzen@comcast.net> To: <[2]autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Matches with a common surname > Dear Linda, > It sounds like you are making progress, but perhaps you don't have enough > data to draw any firm conclusions yet about the genealogical relationships > involved. If you can't prove the genealogical connection now then I would > keep testing cousins of these people on the same lines of descent you are > interested in. Hopefully, that will eventually allow you to draw firmer > conclusions. However, proving a genealogical connection to someone in the > 1600s using autosomal DNA is still challenging at this point. We need to > have better chromosome maps for people linking phased segments back in the > 1700s before we can really start reaching back into the 1600s with > certainty. > Tim Janzen References 1. mailto:tjanzen@comcast.net 2. mailto:autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com

Tim, I have thus far tested myself, both of my parents, the only 2 living siblings of my maternal grandmother, & a 3rd cousin descended from my grandmother's father's brother (3rd cousin to me). Results are pending for both of my mother's brothers. My grandmother had 8 full siblings, all with large families. I could attempt to contact those still living, their probable results would be interesting as for the most part, my grandmother's siblings married distant cousins. I admin. a Family Finder Project for this surname to which we now have 40 members from a dozen or so different lines, most which have a brick wall in trying to surpass the lack of any paper trail in the 1700's back to Peter the immigrant. Many between the different linages match others in the project (and others not yet in the project) not even to mention the amazing number of matches in common between members. But, back to the match in question. The most distant ancestor for each of the 3 Project Members was born in MD 1775-1785. One line migrated from MD to AL by 1810, the other 2 to KY in the same time frame. Of the 2 to KY, they lived in different counties and only my line stayed in KY. The son of the 3rd mda migrated to CA. It's remote that any of the 3 share a common ancestor previous to 1775 or there abt. Of my personal relatives tested, (not incl. my father!) all but one of my great aunts match the gentleman whose branch went to AL. Both great aunts and 3rd cousin match the gentleman whose branch went to CA. Back to chromosone 14 and the segment in qiestion. Only the 1 great aunt matches both gentlemen. Neither great aunt match each other on 14 until after this segment. The 2nd great aunt has 2 matches in this area. One with a cousin through her fathers mother, the other through her mother's mother. Since the 2 sisters don't match each other here, I am presuming that the first great aunt's DNA is from either of her 2 grandfather's & not her 2 grandmother's My mother & I match the first great aunt overlapping this segment, but even through we both match the AL gentleman on other segments, we don't match him on this segment and neither of us match the CA gentleman at all. At this time, there aren't any other matches to compare and determine for certainty which grandfather. It's certainly possible it c/b the maternal grandfather, as he too is a brick wall of mine going back to the same time period in MD. However, because of the common surname shared by all 3, it seems more likely that my great aunts DNA on this segment came from her father's father. HELP! Linda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Janzen" <tjanzen@comcast.net> To: <autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Matches with a common surname > Dear Linda, > It sounds like you are making progress, but perhaps you don't have enough > data to draw any firm conclusions yet about the genealogical relationships > involved. If you can't prove the genealogical connection now then I would > keep testing cousins of these people on the same lines of descent you are > interested in. Hopefully, that will eventually allow you to draw firmer > conclusions. However, proving a genealogical connection to someone in the > 1600s using autosomal DNA is still challenging at this point. We need to > have better chromosome maps for people linking phased segments back in the > 1700s before we can really start reaching back into the 1600s with > certainty. > Tim Janzen > > -----Original Message----- > From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Linda Boorom > Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 1:29 PM > To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com > Subject: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Matches with a common surname > > Don't want to get too confusing with what I am seeing from my database of > close kin, but think that > at least the segment from 20941493 to 2650205 on Chr 14 is IBD and more than > likely goes back to th > ancestor who was the 1674 immigrant from MD > > I've done some more back & forth studies between the different Chromosone > Browsers, have access to > the Raw DNA of Female A, Male A, but not B. > > Trying to crack a few bricks on this surname. > > Although I've spent a few days trying to compose this and simplify it, it > still probably appears > confusing. Just not sure how much or in what order to share what I am > seeing. > > Linda > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the > word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Female A with maiden name matches Male A with same surname on chromosome: 14 start 20589439 stop 2650205 cM's10.52 Snp's 2100 Male B with with a supposed (per family letter 1800's and/or bible record) great grandmother with the same surname on chromosone 14 start 20589439 stop 2650205 cM's10.52 Snp's 2100 >From Male A & Male B's Chromosone Browser info. they match Female A the same but each other on: 14 start 20941493 stop 31708664 cM's 18.28 Snp's 3087 Female A (via 1st cousin 2R tested Y-DNA) & Male A by Y-DNA connect to an immigrant to MD in 1674. Both brick walled 1700's missing 2-3 generations in the connection to the immigrant. Male B would be the same missing generations assuming the family info is correct) Female A is my maternal great aunt. She matches male A & B Her sister only matches B, not A Great aunts 1st cousin 2R matches male A & B Both my mother & myself match with male A Don't want to get too confusing with what I am seeing from my database of close kin, but think that at least the segment from 20941493 to 2650205 on Chr 14 is IBD and more than likely goes back to th ancestor who was the 1674 immigrant from MD I've done some more back & forth studies between the different Chromosone Browsers, have access to the Raw DNA of Female A, Male A, but not B. Trying to crack a few bricks on this surname. Although I've spent a few days trying to compose this and simplify it, it still probably appears confusing. Just not sure how much or in what order to share what I am seeing. Linda

Dear Linda, It sounds like you are making progress, but perhaps you don't have enough data to draw any firm conclusions yet about the genealogical relationships involved. If you can't prove the genealogical connection now then I would keep testing cousins of these people on the same lines of descent you are interested in. Hopefully, that will eventually allow you to draw firmer conclusions. However, proving a genealogical connection to someone in the 1600s using autosomal DNA is still challenging at this point. We need to have better chromosome maps for people linking phased segments back in the 1700s before we can really start reaching back into the 1600s with certainty. Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Linda Boorom Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 1:29 PM To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] Matches with a common surname Don't want to get too confusing with what I am seeing from my database of close kin, but think that at least the segment from 20941493 to 2650205 on Chr 14 is IBD and more than likely goes back to th ancestor who was the 1674 immigrant from MD I've done some more back & forth studies between the different Chromosone Browsers, have access to the Raw DNA of Female A, Male A, but not B. Trying to crack a few bricks on this surname. Although I've spent a few days trying to compose this and simplify it, it still probably appears confusing. Just not sure how much or in what order to share what I am seeing. Linda ______________________________ For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please see: http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks as always, Tim, for your time and information. Barton On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 12:06 AM, Tim Janzen wrote: > Dear Barton, > You received only one of each your mother's paired autosomal > chromosomes and likewise for your dad. This basic biological principle > allows you to separate your mom's matches into two categories, those > who match you as well and those who do not. Assuming that the people > who match your mom but don't match you share an HIR with your mom that > is IBD (not always a valid assumption, particularly for relatively > short HIRs), it may be assumed that anyone who matches your mom, but > doesn't match you, is matching your mom on her chromosome that you > didn't receive. If you haven't yet carefully scrutinized my mom's > match list that I mentioned in my last message, I suggest you do so. > In particular, review column J. Life becomes much simpler for an > autosomal genetic genealogist when you have data for both parents and > yourself in all three of the major genetic genealogy companies' > databases. You will never regret having done the Family Finder test > yourself once you have your personal! > match list available for review. > Sincerely, > Tim Janzen >

Thank you, Tim.  I have not tested myself though I have both parents.  I do not understand how my testing will tell me which side of my mother's genome the five people discussed in my message below fall on, which is the question I am trying to answer.  To the extent I come up as any of these people's matches, I already know which side of my genome they're on - my mom's.  But you so consistently state the importance of a parent-child match that I have decided to go ahead and test.  I hope by doing so and following the steps you outline below I can glean something I have not before. Best, Barton On Sun, Sep 29, 2013 at 11:18 PM, Tim Janzen wrote: > Dear Barton, > Since you have Family Finder data for your mom (and presumably also > for yourself) you have a very simple way to sort this all out. All > you need > to do is to see which of these 5 people match you on the same segment > and > which do not. I have previously referred to this as a "poor man's > phasing". > I summarized this in a message I posted on the ISOGG list on June 4, > 2011 as > below. I am reposting it here as well. You might also want to read > the > instructions on doing this that Emily Aulicino and I wrote that may be > found > at > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21841126/Basics%20of%20Chromosome%20Mapp > ing.docx. The only issue you have to watch for when using this > technique is > those situations where a crossover has occurred between your mother > and you > at a specific location. Appropriate chromosome mapping helps you > eventually > spot these, but if you don't have data from various cousins available > for > mapping purposes then you will not be able to spot these crossover > locations > unless you are carefully reviewing all of your matching segment data > from > your Family Finder and 23andMe matches. I would also suggest you > review my > mom's match list at > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21841126/23andMe%20and%20FF%20matches%20 > for%20Betty%20Janzen%20(public).xls to see how it is structured. If > you > didn't have your mom's data, then you would need to ask each of your > matches > on this particular segment if they match each other in Family Finder > in the > chromosome browser. If you do that, you need to make sure that the > HIR > overlaps enough so that it will meet Family Finder's threshold for a > match, > which is 7.7 cMs. > Sincerely, > Tim Janzen > > Let me explain my technique in a little more detail. If you > haven't > already reviewed my genome map file at > > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21841126/chromosome%20map%20Betty%20Janzen.zip, > I > would suggest that you do so before trying to understand the details. > It is > important that you note that in that file column G is the chromosome > that I > received from my mom and that column H is the chromosome that my mom > has > that she didn't pass on to me. You can delete the data in those > columns and > then use this file as the file for which you do your analysis of your > own > data. > To start with you need a parent's 23andMe results or Family Finder > results and you need one of their children's results. You then need > to > compile a list of all of the known relatives of the parent who have > been > tested who are either first cousins to the parent or more distantly > related > to that parent. If you are using 23andMe data for comparison you then > go to > the "Family Inheritance: Advanced" section in "Ancestry Labs". You > then set > the parent as the person whose genome is open in 23andMe by clicking > on that > name in the drop down menu up at the top of the screen next to > "Account". > Then set the child as the 2nd optional family member in the "Family > Inheritance: Advanced" section. Then select the person to be placed > in the > "Select a person in question" box. This person needs to be a first > cousin > or someone else known to be a distant relative of the parent. Then > click on > "Compare". Then click on "View in a table". This will generate a > list of > matching segments for both the parent and for the child. If you are > comparing data in Family Finder the technique is somewhat different. > What I > do there is to first log into the parent's account and go to the > "Chromosome > Browser" section of Family Finder. I then find the relative in the > list of > matches. I then click on the box next to the relative's name and then > click > on "Download to Excel". I save the Excel file on my hard drive. I > then log > into the child's account and go to the "Chromosome Browser" section of > Family Finder. I then find the relative in the list of matches. I > then > click on the box next to the relative's name, click on "Download to > Excel", > and save the Excel file on my hard drive. I then open both Excel > files and > copy the data from one Excel file so that it is included right below > the > data in the other Excel file. I then sort that file by the chromosome > and > then by start location so that I can see all of the matching segments > for > both the parent and the child adjacent to each other in the file. I > then > delete all segments that are under 5 cMs for which the parent and the > child > do not both share a corresponding matching segment with the relative. > It > may be reasonable to map some segments in the 3-5 cM range if both the > parent and the child share that same segment with the relative but > caution > is warranted when mapping segments that don't contain at least 700 or > more > SNPs because some matching segments could be IBS (identical by state) > and > not IBD (identical by descent). > In the Excel file I mentioned above in the first paragraph first > fill in > the start point in column G with the name of the ancestor that the > parent > must have received the segment from for all of the segments in which > the > child also matches the other relative. For example, if a first cousin > of > the parent is being used for comparison then you would enter into the > cell > the name of the grandparent of the child who was related to the first > cousin > in the appropriate cell in the file, the grandparent's year of birth > and the > name of the relative used for comparison. For instance, if the > child's > start point was at position 80,000,000 on chromosome 5 then you would > fill > cell G177752 with the name of the grandparent, their YOB and the name > of the > relative. Then copy the contents of cell G177752 and drag the > contents down > to fill in all cells in column G down to the endpoint of that segment. > If > the end point was at position 104,500,000 then you would fill in the > column > all the way down to cell G181568. Simultaneously fill in the contents > of > cells H177752 to H181568 with the name of the spouse of the > grandparent and > their YOB. I like to add "inf" after the name and the YOB to > designate that > I have inferred this information from the fact that I have already > filled in > the corresponding cells in column G. Repeat this same procedure for > every > segment that the child shares with the relative used for comparison. > Once you have done the above then review the segments that the parent > shares with the other relative but the child does not. For instance, > let's > say that the parent's matching segment on chromosome 5 starts at > 65,000,000 > and continues to 110,000,000. You would then go to cell H174981 and > enter > the name of the grandparent of the child who was related to the first > cousin, their YOB, and the name of the relative used for comparison. > I also > like to add "inf" after this information to indicate that I inferred > the > information from the fact that the child doesn't share that matching > segment. You would then fill the contents of cell H174981 down to > cell > H177751 with the same information as is in cell H174981. You would > next > fill in cells H181569 to H182595 with the same information. This > would > cover the segment between position 104,500,000 and 110,000,000. I > would > simultaneously fill in the contents of cells G174981 to H177751 and > G181569 > to G182595 with the name of the spouse of the grandparent, their YOB, > and > "inf" after that. In similar fashion continue filling in all the > appropriate cells in column H for the segments that the parent shares > with > the other relative but the child does not and adding the corresponding > information for those segments in column G. > Once you have recorded the information as recommended for the > first > relative selected for comparison in the paragraph above then continue > in > similar fashion for all known relatives who are related no more > closely than > at the first cousin level of relationship to the parent. If there are > segments that multiple relatives share in common with the parent, then > I > like to modify the contents of the corresponding cells to include the > name > or the initials of each relative who shares that same segment. This > information can be helpful in situations where there is some ambiguity > about > the start or stop locations for a particular segment. For instance, > if you > look at my file you will see that in cell G182987 the entry JY1823 > Darryl > Youngman, FM, and MY. This information continues down to cell > G185532. > This means that my relatives Darryl Youngman, Frederick Mock, and > Mason > Youngman all share this segment with both my mom and I. Thus it > appears in > column G. The ancestor that all 5 of us share in common is Jacob > Youngman > (b. ca 1823). The segment of DNA just above this segment in the file > was > shared by Darryl Youngman, Mason Youngman, my mom and me, but not by > Frederick Mock. > Once you have gone through the comparisons for all of the > relatives in > your list save it and keep it on hand for reference. When you have a > new > match in 23andMe compare them in "Family Inheritance: Advanced" > section in > "Ancestry Labs" to the parent and the child or compare them in Family > Finder > as I described above. If both the parent, the child, and your new > match all > share a segment that you have previously mapped in the file you > created as > described above then you know that the ancestor listed in column G for > that > particular segment of DNA must have shared ancestry with your new > match. If > the parent shares a segment in common with your new match, but the > child > doesn't share that segment with the match then you know that the > ancestor > listed in column H for that particular segment must have shared > ancestry > your new match. > It is important to bear in mind that small matching segments can > be > problematic for the purposes of mapping, particularly for data in > 23andMe. > Let's say for instance that a parent shares a matching segment that is > 8 cMs > in length with a known second cousin but the child doesn't share that > segment. You would thus have mapped that entire segment to column H > in your > file. However, if by chance there had been a crossover during meiosis > in > the middle of that segment before a portion of it was passed on to the > child > then about 4 cMs of the 8 cM segment would be inappropriately mapped > to > column H when it actually should have been placed in column G. For > this > reason, I initially started by mapping matching segments that were 10 > cMs or > longer if a relative shared a segment with the parent but not with the > child. If there was a crossover in a segment 10 cMs or longer then > the > child should have received a segment that was at least 5 cMs in length > and > would thus show up as a matching segment for the child. One advantage > of > Family Finder is that FF has a 1 cM threshold for matching segments. > If a > parent and a child both have a matching segment that is in the 2 to 5 > cM > range and if the number of matching SNPs is 500 or more then there is > a > reasonably high likelihood that the matching segment is IBD (identical > by > descent) and not IBS (identical by state). Another advantage of > Family > Finder is that Family Finder doesn't round to the nearest millionth > base > pair like 23andMe does, so there is greater clarity as to the precise > boundaries of each matching segment. I have been able to get around > the > first issue partially and the second issue entirely for 23andMe data > by > including my family and their relatives in the Mennonite project at > http://kquilting.homeserver.com/23andme/index.html where we use a 4 cM > threshold for matches and where the matching segments are not rounded > to the > nearest millionth base pair. > Endogamous populations represent another challenging group for > mapping > purposes since there is a higher likelihood in such populations that > matching segments will be IBS (identical by state) and not IBD > (identical by > descent). In such populations it might be wise to initially start by > mapping segments that are at least 10-15 cMs and/or contain greater > than > 1000 or so SNPs. Phasing data from endogamous populations before > doing > comparisons is a very good approach and reduces the probability that > any > particular matching segment will be IBS. > Sincerely, > Tim > > -----Original Message----- > From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Barton Lewis > Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2013 6:54 PM > To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] ICW - inconsistencies > > I find the scenarios presented by the ICW feature and the CB difficult > to > comprehend. I wish I knew what questions to ask my matches (i.e., > which of > the matches they are or are nor matching). For example, > > My mother matches A, B, C, D and E on an overlapping segment of chr > 20. All > are ICW each other, except D is not ICW E and E is not ICW D. > All I can glean from this is that my mother is matching D and E on > different > sides of chr 20. Do I have enough information to tentatively assign > the > others to a certain side? If not, do I need to be asking each one > where > they match others on this stretch of chr 20? What is the minimally > sufficient information I should request of each of them? > > Thanks, > > Barton > > > > ______________________________ > For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about mailing lists, please > see: > http://dgmweb.net/MailingListFAQs.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUTOSOMAL-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Dear Barton, You received only one of each your mother's paired autosomal chromosomes and likewise for your dad. This basic biological principle allows you to separate your mom's matches into two categories, those who match you as well and those who do not. Assuming that the people who match your mom but don't match you share an HIR with your mom that is IBD (not always a valid assumption, particularly for relatively short HIRs), it may be assumed that anyone who matches your mom, but doesn't match you, is matching your mom on her chromosome that you didn't receive. If you haven't yet carefully scrutinized my mom's match list that I mentioned in my last message, I suggest you do so. In particular, review column J. Life becomes much simpler for an autosomal genetic genealogist when you have data for both parents and yourself in all three of the major genetic genealogy companies' databases. You will never regret having done the Family Finder test yourself once you have your personal! match list available for review. Sincerely, Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of BARTON LEWIS Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2013 8:34 PM To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com Cc: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] ICW - inconsistencies Thank you, Tim. I have not tested myself though I have both parents. I do not understand how my testing will tell me which side of my mother's genome the five people discussed in my message below fall on, which is the question I am trying to answer. To the extent I come up as any of these people's matches, I already know which side of my genome they're on - my mom's. But you so consistently state the importance of a parent-child match that I have decided to go ahead and test. I hope by doing so and following the steps you outline below I can glean something I have not before. Best, Barton

Dear Barton, Since you have Family Finder data for your mom (and presumably also for yourself) you have a very simple way to sort this all out. All you need to do is to see which of these 5 people match you on the same segment and which do not. I have previously referred to this as a "poor man's phasing". I summarized this in a message I posted on the ISOGG list on June 4, 2011 as below. I am reposting it here as well. You might also want to read the instructions on doing this that Emily Aulicino and I wrote that may be found at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21841126/Basics%20of%20Chromosome%20Mapp ing.docx. The only issue you have to watch for when using this technique is those situations where a crossover has occurred between your mother and you at a specific location. Appropriate chromosome mapping helps you eventually spot these, but if you don't have data from various cousins available for mapping purposes then you will not be able to spot these crossover locations unless you are carefully reviewing all of your matching segment data from your Family Finder and 23andMe matches. I would also suggest you review my mom's match list at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21841126/23andMe%20and%20FF%20matches%20 for%20Betty%20Janzen%20(public).xls to see how it is structured. If you didn't have your mom's data, then you would need to ask each of your matches on this particular segment if they match each other in Family Finder in the chromosome browser. If you do that, you need to make sure that the HIR overlaps enough so that it will meet Family Finder's threshold for a match, which is 7.7 cMs. Sincerely, Tim Janzen Let me explain my technique in a little more detail. If you haven't already reviewed my genome map file at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21841126/chromosome%20map%20Betty%20Janzen.zip, I would suggest that you do so before trying to understand the details. It is important that you note that in that file column G is the chromosome that I received from my mom and that column H is the chromosome that my mom has that she didn't pass on to me. You can delete the data in those columns and then use this file as the file for which you do your analysis of your own data. To start with you need a parent's 23andMe results or Family Finder results and you need one of their children's results. You then need to compile a list of all of the known relatives of the parent who have been tested who are either first cousins to the parent or more distantly related to that parent. If you are using 23andMe data for comparison you then go to the "Family Inheritance: Advanced" section in "Ancestry Labs". You then set the parent as the person whose genome is open in 23andMe by clicking on that name in the drop down menu up at the top of the screen next to "Account". Then set the child as the 2nd optional family member in the "Family Inheritance: Advanced" section. Then select the person to be placed in the "Select a person in question" box. This person needs to be a first cousin or someone else known to be a distant relative of the parent. Then click on "Compare". Then click on "View in a table". This will generate a list of matching segments for both the parent and for the child. If you are comparing data in Family Finder the technique is somewhat different. What I do there is to first log into the parent's account and go to the "Chromosome Browser" section of Family Finder. I then find the relative in the list of matches. I then click on the box next to the relative's name and then click on "Download to Excel". I save the Excel file on my hard drive. I then log into the child's account and go to the "Chromosome Browser" section of Family Finder. I then find the relative in the list of matches. I then click on the box next to the relative's name, click on "Download to Excel", and save the Excel file on my hard drive. I then open both Excel files and copy the data from one Excel file so that it is included right below the data in the other Excel file. I then sort that file by the chromosome and then by start location so that I can see all of the matching segments for both the parent and the child adjacent to each other in the file. I then delete all segments that are under 5 cMs for which the parent and the child do not both share a corresponding matching segment with the relative. It may be reasonable to map some segments in the 3-5 cM range if both the parent and the child share that same segment with the relative but caution is warranted when mapping segments that don't contain at least 700 or more SNPs because some matching segments could be IBS (identical by state) and not IBD (identical by descent). In the Excel file I mentioned above in the first paragraph first fill in the start point in column G with the name of the ancestor that the parent must have received the segment from for all of the segments in which the child also matches the other relative. For example, if a first cousin of the parent is being used for comparison then you would enter into the cell the name of the grandparent of the child who was related to the first cousin in the appropriate cell in the file, the grandparent's year of birth and the name of the relative used for comparison. For instance, if the child's start point was at position 80,000,000 on chromosome 5 then you would fill cell G177752 with the name of the grandparent, their YOB and the name of the relative. Then copy the contents of cell G177752 and drag the contents down to fill in all cells in column G down to the endpoint of that segment. If the end point was at position 104,500,000 then you would fill in the column all the way down to cell G181568. Simultaneously fill in the contents of cells H177752 to H181568 with the name of the spouse of the grandparent and their YOB. I like to add "inf" after the name and the YOB to designate that I have inferred this information from the fact that I have already filled in the corresponding cells in column G. Repeat this same procedure for every segment that the child shares with the relative used for comparison. Once you have done the above then review the segments that the parent shares with the other relative but the child does not. For instance, let's say that the parent's matching segment on chromosome 5 starts at 65,000,000 and continues to 110,000,000. You would then go to cell H174981 and enter the name of the grandparent of the child who was related to the first cousin, their YOB, and the name of the relative used for comparison. I also like to add "inf" after this information to indicate that I inferred the information from the fact that the child doesn't share that matching segment. You would then fill the contents of cell H174981 down to cell H177751 with the same information as is in cell H174981. You would next fill in cells H181569 to H182595 with the same information. This would cover the segment between position 104,500,000 and 110,000,000. I would simultaneously fill in the contents of cells G174981 to H177751 and G181569 to G182595 with the name of the spouse of the grandparent, their YOB, and "inf" after that. In similar fashion continue filling in all the appropriate cells in column H for the segments that the parent shares with the other relative but the child does not and adding the corresponding information for those segments in column G. Once you have recorded the information as recommended for the first relative selected for comparison in the paragraph above then continue in similar fashion for all known relatives who are related no more closely than at the first cousin level of relationship to the parent. If there are segments that multiple relatives share in common with the parent, then I like to modify the contents of the corresponding cells to include the name or the initials of each relative who shares that same segment. This information can be helpful in situations where there is some ambiguity about the start or stop locations for a particular segment. For instance, if you look at my file you will see that in cell G182987 the entry JY1823 Darryl Youngman, FM, and MY. This information continues down to cell G185532. This means that my relatives Darryl Youngman, Frederick Mock, and Mason Youngman all share this segment with both my mom and I. Thus it appears in column G. The ancestor that all 5 of us share in common is Jacob Youngman (b. ca 1823). The segment of DNA just above this segment in the file was shared by Darryl Youngman, Mason Youngman, my mom and me, but not by Frederick Mock. Once you have gone through the comparisons for all of the relatives in your list save it and keep it on hand for reference. When you have a new match in 23andMe compare them in "Family Inheritance: Advanced" section in "Ancestry Labs" to the parent and the child or compare them in Family Finder as I described above. If both the parent, the child, and your new match all share a segment that you have previously mapped in the file you created as described above then you know that the ancestor listed in column G for that particular segment of DNA must have shared ancestry with your new match. If the parent shares a segment in common with your new match, but the child doesn't share that segment with the match then you know that the ancestor listed in column H for that particular segment must have shared ancestry your new match. It is important to bear in mind that small matching segments can be problematic for the purposes of mapping, particularly for data in 23andMe. Let's say for instance that a parent shares a matching segment that is 8 cMs in length with a known second cousin but the child doesn't share that segment. You would thus have mapped that entire segment to column H in your file. However, if by chance there had been a crossover during meiosis in the middle of that segment before a portion of it was passed on to the child then about 4 cMs of the 8 cM segment would be inappropriately mapped to column H when it actually should have been placed in column G. For this reason, I initially started by mapping matching segments that were 10 cMs or longer if a relative shared a segment with the parent but not with the child. If there was a crossover in a segment 10 cMs or longer then the child should have received a segment that was at least 5 cMs in length and would thus show up as a matching segment for the child. One advantage of Family Finder is that FF has a 1 cM threshold for matching segments. If a parent and a child both have a matching segment that is in the 2 to 5 cM range and if the number of matching SNPs is 500 or more then there is a reasonably high likelihood that the matching segment is IBD (identical by descent) and not IBS (identical by state). Another advantage of Family Finder is that Family Finder doesn't round to the nearest millionth base pair like 23andMe does, so there is greater clarity as to the precise boundaries of each matching segment. I have been able to get around the first issue partially and the second issue entirely for 23andMe data by including my family and their relatives in the Mennonite project at http://kquilting.homeserver.com/23andme/index.html where we use a 4 cM threshold for matches and where the matching segments are not rounded to the nearest millionth base pair. Endogamous populations represent another challenging group for mapping purposes since there is a higher likelihood in such populations that matching segments will be IBS (identical by state) and not IBD (identical by descent). In such populations it might be wise to initially start by mapping segments that are at least 10-15 cMs and/or contain greater than 1000 or so SNPs. Phasing data from endogamous populations before doing comparisons is a very good approach and reduces the probability that any particular matching segment will be IBS. Sincerely, Tim -----Original Message----- From: autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:autosomal-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Barton Lewis Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2013 6:54 PM To: autosomal-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUTOSOMAL-DNA] ICW - inconsistencies I find the scenarios presented by the ICW feature and the CB difficult to comprehend. I wish I knew what questions to ask my matches (i.e., which of the matches they are or are nor matching). For example, My mother matches A, B, C, D and E on an overlapping segment of chr 20. All are ICW each other, except D is not ICW E and E is not ICW D. All I can glean from this is that my mother is matching D and E on different sides of chr 20. Do I have enough information to tentatively assign the others to a certain side? If not, do I need to be asking each one where they match others on this stretch of chr 20? What is the minimally sufficient information I should request of each of them? Thanks, Barton