This is from another list, Any ideas how we can help Robyn in Toowoomba Regards Pete. Australian Cemeteries Site Author From WARWICK-L-request@rootsweb.com Jacqui, same thing has happened to me here in Australia. My great grandfather lived in a boom town for mining in north west Qld. Croydon. He died in 1888. death certificate says buried Mulligans Camp, which was a settlement there full on. Away from the town of Croydon, I guess it being very hot here, people were buried quickly and close to where they died. He was the local publican and only in his forties when he died and a catholic, so i am assuming he had a grave site, and probably marked. I drove for 3 days from where i live in Toowoomba to find out where he was. Tramped over many cemeteries and found Afghan camel drivers, chinese gardeners and gold diggers, many other miners and many many children who did not survive the harsh conditions. No great grandfather. Then found that several grave yards were now fenced in, and on private property, and the man will not let anyone in. Guess people shot sheep or left gates open, so he decided not to let anyone in now. Now, there are about 30 graves where i think my great grandfather is, plus other yards within the property. Once the mine closed down, someone bought the ground for running stock, and fenced their boundary. Now, i think that maybe they were supposed to build the fence around the sites, but it is cheaper to go straight down, than round a block, and it was not done many years ago. Maybe 40, could be more. Now all these people who have ancestors there, and i am one, he is in one of those sites, cannot get there, ever. There could be over 100 graves, with more than one in a site, situated in several yards in various sections of this property. I might add the ground is not worth much, if the government had to buy it, it is desolate country, but our history is there, getting more and more damaged with stock knocking it over etc. and i cannot do anything about it. robyndehood,toowoomba,qld,oz. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jacqui Simkins" <jas@langleymill.freeserve.co.uk> To: <WARWICK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 1:02 AM Subject: [WAR] Graveyard access > Greetings Listers: I hope that Christmas was all you hoped it would be. > > I wonder if anyone on the List knows the legal situation (or can offer advice) of graves in Church of England churchyards where the church building has been sold off as a house. > > At Little Packington in Warwickshire, the graves and many stones are still in situ. Little Packington was in Lichfield Diocese, then transferred to Coventry and the parish/benefice now combined with that at Meriden. The church is now a "private residence": proclaimed by a large sign on the roadside gates. There is no public right of way adjacent to the graveyard, and the access drive to the house was, when I went to take holly for Christmas, electronically locked (this was on Monday 23 Dec). There is no pedestrian gate, nor stile over the fence, nor public footpath in the adjacent farm field that actually provides access to the graves. > > The local vicar was offering to ask the house owner if it would be possible for me to visit the grave: I pointed out that access should be for all who had family buried there and I would not countenance him asking permission for me alone. There was evidence on an earlier visit that some of the graves are visited. I have emailed the local diocesan office and also the redundant churches arm of the church commissioners and await their comment/information. > > I know from another Lister that assurances (presumably verbal) were given by the Church at the time of the sale that "access to the graves would be maintained". This is blatantly not the case and I feel very uneasy that my gt-gran was buried at her local church with a stone to mark her grave for her subsequent descendants to pay their respects and care for her, yet she appears to be now in private hands, sold off by the Church Commissioners. I also know that one parishioner involved at the time the church was sold is "furious" to hear the gates are locked. (It took me years of searching to find her resting place as I had thought she had remained in Cheshire when her sons migrated to Warwickshire.) > > I cannot believe that any private individual should be able to buy consecrated ground and its burials, and then bar descendants access: it seems immoral to me that it could happen. I could half-understand it if the church commissioners had arranged for the burials to be exhumed and transferred along with the benefice. > > Has anyone come across barred access to other churchyards where the church has been sold and converted? Or, has anyone any information on the true legal situation? Any specific advice would be appreciated - off-list if preferred. > > JAS > > > > > ==== WARWICK Mailing List ==== > Birmingham and Midland Society for Genealogy and Heraldry > http://www.bmsgh.org/ ============================================== Peter Applebee Elizabeth South Australia http://au.geocities.com/papplebee/ Genealogy: Chasing your own tale! ==============================================

I don't know if this helps but it could be the way out? If someone with the help of the local church met with the owner and photographed the headstones and listed all the graves within and sent them to us we would be able to put them up on our web page for all to enjoy, if this was pointed out when seeing the owners this could be one way around others being able to get the information of such graves. I for one would be far happier if we could talk with the owners and see if some arrangement could be made for families to be able to visit the grave sites. As we do in many other cemeteries throughout this country, such as on Birthdays, Easter and on Christmas and some of us would visit to celebrate the anniversaries of the death, to pay our respects to our loved ones, long gone from this earthly place we call our home land. Surly the owner would feel the same way if they were stopped if they so wished to visit there loved ones last resting place. Otherwise I'd say lets start writing to the local politicians within the area, as I'm sure that if they got enough letter in their mail boxes we could get lucky by numbers and see a time went this could happen. Mind you I still await such permission to post the information about such a cemetery, and if permission is not granted to me then I'm going to let the owner know that I'm going to place such information on our web page anyway, as I do not see that he has the power to withhold such information from the families of the people buried within the cemetery on his property. We also have to keep in mind that each state within Australia has different bodies who over see such cemeteries. Your comment are welcomed on this issue please and if anyone knows of such a cemetery if they wish to pass on the information to me them I'm happy to try and make contact and see what we can do for the future. My personal e-mail address is <batie@bigpond.net.au> but don't be alarmed if I do not get straight back to you as I'm away from my computer 3 days a week at present working in Warrnambool. Regards, Ray. List Admin. Peter Applebee wrote: > This is from another list, Any ideas how we can help Robyn in Toowoomba > > Regards Pete. > Australian Cemeteries Site Author > > From WARWICK-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Jacqui, same thing has happened to me here in Australia. My great > grandfather lived in a boom town for mining in north west Qld. Croydon. He > died in 1888. death certificate says buried Mulligans Camp, which was a > settlement there full on. Away from the town of Croydon, I guess it being > very hot here, people were buried quickly and close to where they died. He > was the local publican and only in his forties when he died and a catholic, > so i am assuming he had a grave site, and probably marked. I drove for 3 > days from where i live in Toowoomba to find out where he was. Tramped over > many cemeteries and found Afghan camel drivers, chinese gardeners and gold > diggers, many other miners and many many children who did not survive the > harsh conditions. No great grandfather. > Then found that several grave yards were now fenced in, and on private > property, and the man will not let anyone in. Guess people shot sheep or > left gates open, so he decided not to let anyone in now. Now, there are > about 30 graves where i think my great grandfather is, plus other yards > within the property. Once the mine closed down, someone bought the ground > for running stock, and fenced their boundary. Now, i think that maybe they > were supposed to build the fence around the sites, but it is cheaper to go > straight down, than round a block, and it was not done many years ago. > Maybe 40, could be more. Now all these people who have ancestors there, and > i am one, he is in one of those sites, cannot get there, ever. There could > be over 100 graves, with more than one in a site, situated in several yards > in various sections of this property. I might add the ground is not worth > much, if the government had to buy it, it is desolate country, but our > history is there, getting more and more damaged with stock knocking it over > etc. and i cannot do anything about it. > robyndehood,toowoomba,qld,oz. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jacqui Simkins" <jas@langleymill.freeserve.co.uk> > To: <WARWICK-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 1:02 AM > Subject: [WAR] Graveyard access > > > Greetings Listers: I hope that Christmas was all you hoped it would be. > > > > I wonder if anyone on the List knows the legal situation (or can offer > advice) of graves in Church of England churchyards where the church building > has been sold off as a house. > > > > At Little Packington in Warwickshire, the graves and many stones are still > in situ. Little Packington was in Lichfield Diocese, then transferred to > Coventry and the parish/benefice now combined with that at Meriden. The > church is now a "private residence": proclaimed by a large sign on the > roadside gates. There is no public right of way adjacent to the graveyard, > and the access drive to the house was, when I went to take holly for > Christmas, electronically locked (this was on Monday 23 Dec). There is no > pedestrian gate, nor stile over the fence, nor public footpath in the > adjacent farm field that actually provides access to the graves. > > > > The local vicar was offering to ask the house owner if it would be > possible for me to visit the grave: I pointed out that access should be for > all who had family buried there and I would not countenance him asking > permission for me alone. There was evidence on an earlier visit that some > of the graves are visited. I have emailed the local diocesan office and > also the redundant churches arm of the church commissioners and await their > comment/information. > > > > I know from another Lister that assurances (presumably verbal) were given > by the Church at the time of the sale that "access to the graves would be > maintained". This is blatantly not the case and I feel very uneasy that my > gt-gran was buried at her local church with a stone to mark her grave for > her subsequent descendants to pay their respects and care for her, yet she > appears to be now in private hands, sold off by the Church Commissioners. > I also know that one parishioner involved at the time the church was sold is > "furious" to hear the gates are locked. (It took me years of searching to > find her resting place as I had thought she had remained in Cheshire when > her sons migrated to Warwickshire.) > > > > I cannot believe that any private individual should be able to buy > consecrated ground and its burials, and then bar descendants access: it > seems immoral to me that it could happen. I could half-understand it if the > church commissioners had arranged for the burials to be exhumed and > transferred along with the benefice. > > > > Has anyone come across barred access to other churchyards where the church > has been sold and converted? Or, has anyone any information on the true > legal situation? Any specific advice would be appreciated - off-list if > preferred. > > > > JAS > > > > > > > > > > ==== WARWICK Mailing List ==== > > Birmingham and Midland Society for Genealogy and Heraldry > > http://www.bmsgh.org/ > > ============================================== > Peter Applebee > Elizabeth > South Australia > http://au.geocities.com/papplebee/ > Genealogy: Chasing your own tale! > ============================================== > > ==== AUSTRALIA-CEMETERIES Mailing List ==== > More information can be found on our Web Page for Cemetery Listings > by state and addresses for Cemeteries also. > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~batman/ > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

Maybe we need to get a petition to the Govenment to have these graves preserved and maybe transcribed. Kaye See the "latest program"on Irish Characters in the Irish Series on genealogy at www.bananatv.com Kaye ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Applebee" <apples57@tpg.com.au> To: <AUSTRALIA-CEMETERIES-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 7:12 PM Subject: [[AUS-CEM]] Can we help? > This is from another list, Any ideas how we can help Robyn in Toowoomba > > Regards Pete. > Australian Cemeteries Site Author > > From WARWICK-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Jacqui, same thing has happened to me here in Australia. My great > grandfather lived in a boom town for mining in north west Qld. Croydon. He > died in 1888. death certificate says buried Mulligans Camp, which was a > settlement there full on. Away from the town of Croydon, I guess it being > very hot here, people were buried quickly and close to where they died. He > was the local publican and only in his forties when he died and a catholic, > so i am assuming he had a grave site, and probably marked. I drove for 3 > days from where i live in Toowoomba to find out where he was. Tramped over > many cemeteries and found Afghan camel drivers, chinese gardeners and gold > diggers, many other miners and many many children who did not survive the > harsh conditions. No great grandfather. > Then found that several grave yards were now fenced in, and on private > property, and the man will not let anyone in. Guess people shot sheep or > left gates open, so he decided not to let anyone in now. Now, there are > about 30 graves where i think my great grandfather is, plus other yards > within the property. Once the mine closed down, someone bought the ground > for running stock, and fenced their boundary. Now, i think that maybe they > were supposed to build the fence around the sites, but it is cheaper to go > straight down, than round a block, and it was not done many years ago. > Maybe 40, could be more. Now all these people who have ancestors there, and > i am one, he is in one of those sites, cannot get there, ever. There could > be over 100 graves, with more than one in a site, situated in several yards > in various sections of this property. I might add the ground is not worth > much, if the government had to buy it, it is desolate country, but our > history is there, getting more and more damaged with stock knocking it over > etc. and i cannot do anything about it. > robyndehood,toowoomba,qld,oz. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jacqui Simkins" <jas@langleymill.freeserve.co.uk> > To: <WARWICK-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 1:02 AM > Subject: [WAR] Graveyard access > > > Greetings Listers: I hope that Christmas was all you hoped it would be. > > > > I wonder if anyone on the List knows the legal situation (or can offer > advice) of graves in Church of England churchyards where the church building > has been sold off as a house. > > > > At Little Packington in Warwickshire, the graves and many stones are still > in situ. Little Packington was in Lichfield Diocese, then transferred to > Coventry and the parish/benefice now combined with that at Meriden. The > church is now a "private residence": proclaimed by a large sign on the > roadside gates. There is no public right of way adjacent to the graveyard, > and the access drive to the house was, when I went to take holly for > Christmas, electronically locked (this was on Monday 23 Dec). There is no > pedestrian gate, nor stile over the fence, nor public footpath in the > adjacent farm field that actually provides access to the graves. > > > > The local vicar was offering to ask the house owner if it would be > possible for me to visit the grave: I pointed out that access should be for > all who had family buried there and I would not countenance him asking > permission for me alone. There was evidence on an earlier visit that some > of the graves are visited. I have emailed the local diocesan office and > also the redundant churches arm of the church commissioners and await their > comment/information. > > > > I know from another Lister that assurances (presumably verbal) were given > by the Church at the time of the sale that "access to the graves would be > maintained". This is blatantly not the case and I feel very uneasy that my > gt-gran was buried at her local church with a stone to mark her grave for > her subsequent descendants to pay their respects and care for her, yet she > appears to be now in private hands, sold off by the Church Commissioners. > I also know that one parishioner involved at the time the church was sold is > "furious" to hear the gates are locked. (It took me years of searching to > find her resting place as I had thought she had remained in Cheshire when > her sons migrated to Warwickshire.) > > > > I cannot believe that any private individual should be able to buy > consecrated ground and its burials, and then bar descendants access: it > seems immoral to me that it could happen. I could half-understand it if the > church commissioners had arranged for the burials to be exhumed and > transferred along with the benefice. > > > > Has anyone come across barred access to other churchyards where the church > has been sold and converted? Or, has anyone any information on the true > legal situation? Any specific advice would be appreciated - off-list if > preferred. > > > > JAS > > > > > > > > > > ==== WARWICK Mailing List ==== > > Birmingham and Midland Society for Genealogy and Heraldry > > http://www.bmsgh.org/ > > > ============================================== > Peter Applebee > Elizabeth > South Australia > http://au.geocities.com/papplebee/ > Genealogy: Chasing your own tale! > ============================================== > > > ==== AUSTRALIA-CEMETERIES Mailing List ==== > More information can be found on our Web Page for Cemetery Listings > by state and addresses for Cemeteries also. > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~batman/ > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >