Hi Garry, Thankyou very much for the information and comments you sent. They are most informative and very interesting. You must have done a lot of research. Are you researching for a book or something? Are you actually related to the Presnells at all? If you come across any other info related to this family, I would be very grateful if you could pass it on, if at all possible. Your efforts on this occasion are much appreciated. Kind regards, Sharon. -----Original Message----- From: Garry A Wilson <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: Tuesday, 23 July 2002 4:21 Subject: [TAS-CONVICTS] Re: PRESNELL/FOWLER >Sharon > >Don't have very much to add, just an observation ot two which may be useful: > >Having made an extensive study of the musters and other primary sources especially >for women up to 1819 so far, I can confirm that there are indeed no other apparent >Ann Fowlers as you suggest. In fact no other female FOWLERs at all. That's not >to say that someone isn't lurking there married with a FOWLER maiden name - or its >spelt some other way etc - but no obvious other Fowlers. Thus, given the >relatively small population, and hence limited logical possibilities, it is likely >that Ann Fowler who baptised James in 1811 is indeed the same Ann FOWLER who was >then "married" to William Presnell. I say "married" because I haven't located a >marriage on NI (not that I'm looking too hard in that direction yet). > >After looking at many records in this period (musters bdm etc), it is very >apparent that many women, even those who are known to have married, kept there >maiden name as their chief identity, especially those who were ex-convicts (even >after their sentences had expired). This occurs a lot in the musters and in >marriage and baptismal records etc. Thus I have no qualms in suggesting that >James is probably the child of William Presnell and Ann Fowler (even tho only Ann >is present at the baptism). > >Indeed many children who were apparently baptised with only their mother present, >turn up later with the father's name. In fact I have to observe that the >baptismal ceremony is one in which the child is given its "Christian" name(s) >only, a point we often forget! It is not a registration of the child's birth as >such, just a christening. Too often we assume that the child is thus named after >its mother (ie with her surname as well) when in fact the only evidence that can >be relied upon is that it was given its first names only. Just happened that the >father saw fit not to be there at the ceremony! It definitely cannot be assumed >that the child did not otherwise take and use its father's surname if you see what >I mean. > >Regarding this James (baptised 1811) then, I will keep this info and one day when >I get more done on the men I'll see if he turns up in later musters etc. From the >evidence before me, it seems that children were regarded as "adult" for the >purpose of musters from about the age of 13 to 15. So, he may just miss out on >being mustered on that count, depending of course on when he was actually born! > >What I can tell you tho is that Ann Presnell appears in the 1818 Muster off stores >and with three children. Now this basically means that the three children would >have had to have been under about 15, ie born after about 1804 at least. >Elizabeth (b 1802) is on the 1818 and 1819 musters in her own right. As Thomas (b >1804) isn't on the 1818 muster in his own right (and doesn't appear to have died) >then the three children probably include Thomas 1804, Sarah (b about 1808) about >whom you are aware from family sources and for the third child take your pick from >Joseph who is supposed to have come on the City of Edinburgh with the family (it >was in Reg Wright's book I think that you must have seen this) or the James >baptised in 1811 to Ann Fowler. > >In fact it would not surprise me in the least, now that I have seen many similar >examples, that Joseph and James are one and the same child. Firstly, you only >need only one child to make up the numbers in the 1818 muster entry, secondly the >baptism of James doesn't give the child's age, thirdly I don't know how many times >I've seen Jas interchanged for Jos in the records, or even adopted as a name >change!, and finally, as you say, there is no other mention of Joseph anyway. So >an infant son names Jos or Jas born about 1806 is very likely to have been >baptised around 1811 if the pattern for other NI persons is taken into account. >But as I say, an analysis of later musters, especially for the men, may help us >unravel that a bit further (with either a Joseph or James turning up!). > >So that's my best guess for the moment. It's just that the data for this early >period is quite self contained and some intelligent deductions can be made which I >have to admit have proven to work out for me in the light of other data. A bit of >lateral thinking etc and its amazing where it leads LOL. > >Actually just took a quick squiz at the 1819 muster of free persons in Hobart, and >a quick scan only located William Presnell, details as you would expect. In the >remarks column there appears to be an abbreviation of "Emancipated" which you may >not have come across. This remark only appears in a second "version" of the >muster I have come across, which together with some other unique material is not >widely known to exist! Hence my interest in these musters etc. The well known >version at SRNSW for 1819 Hobart free males (4/1235.4) does NOT have an entry in >the remarks column for Wm Presnell!, whereas this copy (the one I believe to have >been kept in Tasmania as distinct from the copy sent to Port Jackson) definitely >has that remark. I say copies in each case because I now feel that these are not >truly the "original" drafts taken at the muster table as it were. I've seen one >of those now (for 1816 I think it was) and they look just like that, if you know >what I mean, messy and untidy, and in different hands etc, just as you would >expect. These copies were neatly written out to be sent to Port Jackson and >presumably kept on hand as a record in VDL. > >Hope this helps a bit. > >Regards > >Garry > > > >> >> >> Subject: Re: [TAS-CONVICTS] Re:Presnell >> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 19:38:31 +1000 >> From: "Norman W. Long" <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> >> Hi Diane and listers, >> Thankyou for your kind welcome to the list. I do have quite a bit of info >> on William PRESNELL and Ann FOWLER, but am always looking to increase my >> knowledge of this family, which is quite perplexing in many ways. I will >> try not too bore you with all the details, but here are some: >> >> Ann FOWLER was sentenced to seven years in Shropshire (no details of her >> birth (abt 1764) or offence known at this stage). She was sent to Port >> Jackson on 'Royal Admiral' in 1792. She had a baby to another convict, >> Joseph Abbott (not the marine with the same name as some have mistakenly >> assumed), also named Joseph, but he died as an infant. Ann was sent to >> Norfolk Island around 1800 but I have not found any details of the trip. >> >> William PRESNELL was sentenced to Life at Essex in 1797 for three counts of >> cattle stealing and one of horse stealing. He came to Pt J on Barwell in >> 1798. I have not found records of his birth (abt 1765) or parents either. >> He was sent to NI around 1800. There he met Ann. They had Elizabeth in >> 1802 and Thomas in 1804. The family came to Hobart on 'City of Edinburgh' >> in 1808. There is however, a record of a third child accompanying them, but >> details are not known for sure. Its name is given as Joseph (in a >> publication whose name escapes me at the moment), but there are no other >> records of such a child. Some have conjectured that there was another >> child, William, who later was a tanner in Hobart, but I have found nothing >> to convince me that this person was their son. William and Ann also had a >> daughter, Sarah, about 1808. Records of her birth have not been foound, so >> perhaps she was an infant on the trip, or perhaps was born shortly after >> their arrival in Hobart. There is also a James Fowler recorded as being >> born to Ann Fowler in 1811. Whether his mother is this Ann or not I am not >> sure, but I have not found any other records of an Ann Fowler. >> William and Ann spent most of their time in Argyle St, and William was a >> very successful business man, supplying the government with meat and running >> the Eagle Tavern, amongst other things. >> >> Several other Presnells came to VDL in the 1820s. Among these was Mrs Sarah >> Presnell 'and family', who arrived at the end of 1822 on Regalia. When she >> died in 1823 at the age of 86 there was a notice in the paper from her son, >> William of Argyle St - so it assumed that she was 'my' William's mother. >> Of the other Presnells who came on various ships in the 1820s, the >> connection to my family is not entirely clear, although it does seem quite >> likely that they were all related in some way. Among these were Thomas, >> James, John and Abraham. It appears that they were also from Essex or >> thereabouts. There is a lot more that I could tell you about them, but I am >> not sure if this is the place. >> >> William and Ann's daughter Elizabeth married a whaler from the USA, George >> Robinson, with whom she had 10 children, and after his death married a much >> younger man, Thomas Chapman, with whom she had one daughter, Sarah, from >> whom I am descended. Their son Thomas died without issue. There is a >> plaque commemorating him and his father on the wall at St Davids park. >> William's daughter Sarah married Thomas Pragnall (Pregnell, etc) and had >> about 4 children. >> >> If you are interested in more details please contact me. If you are >> descended from any of these people, or any other Presnells from Tasmania, I >> would dearly love to hear from you. If you have any information about these >> people i would also love to hear from you. The more of us that work on this >> complicated family, the more loose ends we can tie up. At the moment I have >> records of more than 3000 people who are descended from William and the >> other Presnells who came to VDL in the 1820s. The main problem is working >> out the origins of, and connections between, all of the original Presnells. >> >> If you have got this far I thank you for taking the time to read it all. >> Kind regards, >> Sharon. > > >==== AUS-TAS-CONVICTS Mailing List ==== >Please link your webpages to the Australian Families Webring and Tasmanian Convicts - let's unite!!! The navigation bar is located at: >Http://hometown.aol.com/romniroser/myhomepage/newsletter.html > >============================== >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >