It is still there at 15:45 Bob Christine Harris wrote: >Trudy and List >I just checked and the auction has been removed. >Cheers >Chris > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Trudy Cowley [mailto:tcowley@bigpond.net.au] >Sent: Monday, 6 March 2006 8:10 AM >To: AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [TAS-CON] Permission to Marry record for auction > >Hello All > >A permission to marry record for Charles Doherty (free) and Sarah Cottle >(Baretto Junior) is currently listed on ebay - see >http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Van-Diemans-Land-Convict-Dept-Document-1854_W0QQitemZ >6610110436QQcategoryZ126QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >It is worth checking out to see what one of these records looked like, even >if you are not a descendant. > >Thanks to Sandra for letting us know. > >Regards >Trudy > >Dr Trudy Cowley >List Administrator >TAS Convicts Rootsweb List >tcowley@bigpond.net.au >AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com > > > >==== AUS-TAS-CONVICTS Mailing List ==== >Visit the Campbell Town Convict Trail website at >http://www.convictbricktrail.com/ > >============================== >Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. >Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: >http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx > > > >==== AUS-TAS-CONVICTS Mailing List ==== >Visit the Port Arthur Historic Site website at >http://www.portarthur.org.au/ > >============================== >Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. >New content added every business day. Learn more: >http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx > > > > >
It is still showing as up for auction to me. Try this shortened URL http://tinyurl.com/f3hv6 regards, Meryl Yost, Launceston, Tasmania ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AUS-Tasmania Genealogy pages http://www.rootsweb.com/~austashs/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christine Harris" <cnharris@iprimus.com.au> To: <AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 11:21 AM Subject: RE: [TAS-CON] Permission to Marry record for auction Trudy and List I just checked and the auction has been removed. Cheers Chris -----Original Message----- From: Trudy Cowley [mailto:tcowley@bigpond.net.au] Sent: Monday, 6 March 2006 8:10 AM To: AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [TAS-CON] Permission to Marry record for auction Hello All A permission to marry record for Charles Doherty (free) and Sarah Cottle (Baretto Junior) is currently listed on ebay - see http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Van-Diemans-Land-Convict-Dept-Document-1854_W0QQitemZ 6610110436QQcategoryZ126QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem It is worth checking out to see what one of these records looked like, even if you are not a descendant. Thanks to Sandra for letting us know. Regards Trudy Dr Trudy Cowley List Administrator TAS Convicts Rootsweb List tcowley@bigpond.net.au AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com ==== AUS-TAS-CONVICTS Mailing List ==== Visit the Campbell Town Convict Trail website at http://www.convictbricktrail.com/ ============================== Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx ==== AUS-TAS-CONVICTS Mailing List ==== Visit the Port Arthur Historic Site website at http://www.portarthur.org.au/ ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx
When I posted the email address, because it is so long, it split onto the next line - you will need to add this part of the address to the first part - the bit that starts with 661... The listing is still there. Regards Trudy Dr Trudy Cowley List Administrator TAS Convicts Rootsweb List tcowley@bigpond.net.au AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com -----Original Message----- From: Christine Harris [mailto:cnharris@iprimus.com.au] Sent: Monday, 6 March 2006 11:22 AM To: AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [TAS-CON] Permission to Marry record for auction Trudy and List I just checked and the auction has been removed. Cheers Chris -----Original Message----- From: Trudy Cowley [mailto:tcowley@bigpond.net.au] Sent: Monday, 6 March 2006 8:10 AM To: AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [TAS-CON] Permission to Marry record for auction Hello All A permission to marry record for Charles Doherty (free) and Sarah Cottle (Baretto Junior) is currently listed on ebay - see http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Van-Diemans-Land-Convict-Dept-Document-1854_W0QQitemZ 6610110436QQcategoryZ126QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem It is worth checking out to see what one of these records looked like, even if you are not a descendant. Thanks to Sandra for letting us know. Regards Trudy Dr Trudy Cowley List Administrator TAS Convicts Rootsweb List tcowley@bigpond.net.au AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com ==== AUS-TAS-CONVICTS Mailing List ==== Visit the Campbell Town Convict Trail website at http://www.convictbricktrail.com/ ============================== Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx ==== AUS-TAS-CONVICTS Mailing List ==== Visit the Port Arthur Historic Site website at http://www.portarthur.org.au/ ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx
Hello All A permission to marry record for Charles Doherty (free) and Sarah Cottle (Baretto Junior) is currently listed on ebay - see http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Van-Diemans-Land-Convict-Dept-Document-1854_W0QQitemZ 6610110436QQcategoryZ126QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem It is worth checking out to see what one of these records looked like, even if you are not a descendant. Thanks to Sandra for letting us know. Regards Trudy Dr Trudy Cowley List Administrator TAS Convicts Rootsweb List tcowley@bigpond.net.au AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com
Thanks Trudy, I have rechecked using your later instructions and yes - there it is. Very interesting. Cheers Chris
Trudy and List I just checked and the auction has been removed. Cheers Chris -----Original Message----- From: Trudy Cowley [mailto:tcowley@bigpond.net.au] Sent: Monday, 6 March 2006 8:10 AM To: AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [TAS-CON] Permission to Marry record for auction Hello All A permission to marry record for Charles Doherty (free) and Sarah Cottle (Baretto Junior) is currently listed on ebay - see http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Van-Diemans-Land-Convict-Dept-Document-1854_W0QQitemZ 6610110436QQcategoryZ126QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem It is worth checking out to see what one of these records looked like, even if you are not a descendant. Thanks to Sandra for letting us know. Regards Trudy Dr Trudy Cowley List Administrator TAS Convicts Rootsweb List tcowley@bigpond.net.au AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com ==== AUS-TAS-CONVICTS Mailing List ==== Visit the Campbell Town Convict Trail website at http://www.convictbricktrail.com/ ============================== Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx
Good evening all, I read Trudy's post with interest, it got me to thinking about Philip Levy of Liverpool Street Hobart Town. He had numerous female convicts working for him until he left Hobart in 1857 to move to Auckland. I wondered of the fate of these women as I assume not all had had their TL granted. Incidently the last was Mary Doolan via the Duke of Cornwall 1857 January 30. Cheers, Polly
Hello Peter & list The last female convicts per 'Australasia' to receive their CP and FC received them in 1863 - the ship arrived in 1849. The convict to receive her CP in 1863 (Eliza Guilfoyle) absconded several times, once for over 3 years in which time she married and had a child under an assumed name. She was a lifer having been tried for arson and so never received a FC. Her TL was restored in 1862 after having been granted initially in 1858. The last 'Australasia' convict to receive her TL was Margaret Murphy on 3 August 1858 (she received her FC 1 year & 1 month later). She had been sentenced to 10 years transportation. I am sure someone can come up with later ones than these! Regards Trudy Dr Trudy Cowley List Administrator TAS Convicts Rootsweb List tcowley@bigpond.net.au AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com -----Original Message----- From: Peter Thomas [mailto:pmthomas@bigpond.com] Sent: Sunday, 5 March 2006 11:25 AM To: 'Trudy Cowley'; AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [TAS-CON] Last convict released from Transportation ? I would be interested to hear who were the last convicts pardoned; time-expired; or granted ToL. The more the merrier. We know when the last convict-ships arrived, but for how long after that was the human element present ? Peter THOMAS Darwin, AUSTRALIA <pmthomas@bigpond.com> -----Original Message----- From: Trudy Cowley [mailto:tcowley@bigpond.net.au] Sent: Saturday, 4 March 2006 1:37 PM To: AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [TAS-CON] Last convict released from Transportation ? Hello Peter A good question, but what exactly do you mean by 'released from transportation'? Lifers never were, unless they received a Free Pardon, though a Conditional Pardon goes close. Or do you mean received a Ticket-of-Leave? Regards Trudy Dr Trudy Cowley List Administrator TAS Convicts Rootsweb List tcowley@bigpond.net.au AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com -----Original Message----- From: Peter Thomas [mailto:pmthomas@bigpond.com] Sent: Saturday, 4 March 2006 2:12 PM To: AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [TAS-CON] Last convict released from Transportation ? G'day, I have a recollection many years ago reading that the last transported convict was not released until 1912. As I recall, he was a Tasmanian, who kept misbehaving, and was not released until a great age. The author of the text found it surprizing that this gent, and any others like him, had not been given a remission or pardon at Federation, by way of closing the door on the convict era. In recent times, I have trawled through every book which might touch on this subject, looking for confirmation or clarification of the above, without success. So, I'm wondering if Listers might care to nominate who was the last transported convict to receive his or her freedom; or to die in custody. And to give everyone a fair go, I think we ought to recognize that NSW, VDL, & WA, are separate categories. By way of illustration: William COMSTIVE, b.1792; arr VDL 1821 (Life); further transported to Norfolk Island 1834 (2nd Life); further transported to NSW 1842 (pardonned on his 2nd Life sentence, but still serving his first Life); only had a Ticket of Leave when he died in 1858. There will be others later than this, even in NSW. Peter THOMAS Darwin, AUSTRALIA <pmthomas@bigpond.com> ==== AUS-TAS-CONVICTS Mailing List ==== If you require assistance using this list, try the www.rootsweb.com 'HELP' page. It may have the answer to your question. ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
I would be interested to hear who were the last convicts pardoned; time-expired; or granted ToL. The more the merrier. We know when the last convict-ships arrived, but for how long after that was the human element present ? Peter THOMAS Darwin, AUSTRALIA <pmthomas@bigpond.com> -----Original Message----- From: Trudy Cowley [mailto:tcowley@bigpond.net.au] Sent: Saturday, 4 March 2006 1:37 PM To: AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [TAS-CON] Last convict released from Transportation ? Hello Peter A good question, but what exactly do you mean by 'released from transportation'? Lifers never were, unless they received a Free Pardon, though a Conditional Pardon goes close. Or do you mean received a Ticket-of-Leave? Regards Trudy Dr Trudy Cowley List Administrator TAS Convicts Rootsweb List tcowley@bigpond.net.au AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com -----Original Message----- From: Peter Thomas [mailto:pmthomas@bigpond.com] Sent: Saturday, 4 March 2006 2:12 PM To: AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [TAS-CON] Last convict released from Transportation ? G'day, I have a recollection many years ago reading that the last transported convict was not released until 1912. As I recall, he was a Tasmanian, who kept misbehaving, and was not released until a great age. The author of the text found it surprizing that this gent, and any others like him, had not been given a remission or pardon at Federation, by way of closing the door on the convict era. In recent times, I have trawled through every book which might touch on this subject, looking for confirmation or clarification of the above, without success. So, I'm wondering if Listers might care to nominate who was the last transported convict to receive his or her freedom; or to die in custody. And to give everyone a fair go, I think we ought to recognize that NSW, VDL, & WA, are separate categories. By way of illustration: William COMSTIVE, b.1792; arr VDL 1821 (Life); further transported to Norfolk Island 1834 (2nd Life); further transported to NSW 1842 (pardonned on his 2nd Life sentence, but still serving his first Life); only had a Ticket of Leave when he died in 1858. There will be others later than this, even in NSW. Peter THOMAS Darwin, AUSTRALIA <pmthomas@bigpond.com> ==== AUS-TAS-CONVICTS Mailing List ==== If you require assistance using this list, try the www.rootsweb.com 'HELP' page. It may have the answer to your question. ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
Hello Peter A good question, but what exactly do you mean by 'released from transportation'? Lifers never were, unless they received a Free Pardon, though a Conditional Pardon goes close. Or do you mean received a Ticket-of-Leave? Regards Trudy Dr Trudy Cowley List Administrator TAS Convicts Rootsweb List tcowley@bigpond.net.au AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com -----Original Message----- From: Peter Thomas [mailto:pmthomas@bigpond.com] Sent: Saturday, 4 March 2006 2:12 PM To: AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [TAS-CON] Last convict released from Transportation ? G'day, I have a recollection many years ago reading that the last transported convict was not released until 1912. As I recall, he was a Tasmanian, who kept misbehaving, and was not released until a great age. The author of the text found it surprizing that this gent, and any others like him, had not been given a remission or pardon at Federation, by way of closing the door on the convict era. In recent times, I have trawled through every book which might touch on this subject, looking for confirmation or clarification of the above, without success. So, I'm wondering if Listers might care to nominate who was the last transported convict to receive his or her freedom; or to die in custody. And to give everyone a fair go, I think we ought to recognize that NSW, VDL, & WA, are separate categories. By way of illustration: William COMSTIVE, b.1792; arr VDL 1821 (Life); further transported to Norfolk Island 1834 (2nd Life); further transported to NSW 1842 (pardonned on his 2nd Life sentence, but still serving his first Life); only had a Ticket of Leave when he died in 1858. There will be others later than this, even in NSW. Peter THOMAS Darwin, AUSTRALIA <pmthomas@bigpond.com> ==== AUS-TAS-CONVICTS Mailing List ==== If you require assistance using this list, try the www.rootsweb.com 'HELP' page. It may have the answer to your question. ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
The Hill Family Gathering will be held near Hobart on Easter Saturday, 15 April 2006, for descendants of George HILL (convict per "Atlas") and Ellen SINGLETON (free per "Sarah"). George and Sarah were married in Tasmania in 1836. Some names associated with this family are: John HILL (married Margaret HAMILTON and Maria ELLIS) George HILL (married Mary PANTON aka Mary MIDSON) Celia HILL (married George NESWICK). Jessie Fleming HILL (married Henry HART) John HILL (married Lena Maud JOY) Ellen Singleton HILL (married James Benjamin BROWN) Charlotte Maria HILL (married Thomas COGHLAN) George William HILL (married Clara DAVIS) Mary Ellen HILL (married Thomas Henry BAILEY) Leslie Robert HILL (married Linda O'KEEFE) Agnes Winifred HILL (married William FAULKNER) Bernard HILL (married Lena O'KEEFE) Ernest Lawrence HILL (married Sarah LUFF) Harold John HILL (married Mary WEINERT) Reginald Lewis HILL (married Agnes PURCELL) Arthur Linus HILL (married Ella HEALY) Charles HILL (married Louisa (Lucy) THOMAS) The above families lived in the Fingal Valley district, Campbell Town, Scottsdale, Launceston and the Bothwell district. Any descendants interested in the Hill Family Gathering, who I haven't been in contact with yet, should email me off list, please Chris Woods (my apologies for the cross-postings)
G'day, regarding the thread "Loaf of Bread": some Listers seem to be overlooking the fact that when someone steals, at night, in a dwelling house, then the crime moves up from stealing/larceny/theft, to housebreaking &/or burglary. The penalty for burglary during the transportation era was death. (Even today in the N.T., it's still a maximum of Life). So, against that background, the seven years' transportation was very lenient. My Mary RUSSELL (arr VDL 1820) was sentenced to death for "larceny in a dwelling", respited to transportation for life. I haven'y yet found out what she stole, but the entry of a dwelling is the critical factor, not the value of the property. Peter THOMAS Darwin, AUSTRALIA <pmthomas@bigpond.com>
G'day, I have a recollection many years ago reading that the last transported convict was not released until 1912. As I recall, he was a Tasmanian, who kept misbehaving, and was not released until a great age. The author of the text found it surprizing that this gent, and any others like him, had not been given a remission or pardon at Federation, by way of closing the door on the convict era. In recent times, I have trawled through every book which might touch on this subject, looking for confirmation or clarification of the above, without success. So, I'm wondering if Listers might care to nominate who was the last transported convict to receive his or her freedom; or to die in custody. And to give everyone a fair go, I think we ought to recognize that NSW, VDL, & WA, are separate categories. By way of illustration: William COMSTIVE, b.1792; arr VDL 1821 (Life); further transported to Norfolk Island 1834 (2nd Life); further transported to NSW 1842 (pardonned on his 2nd Life sentence, but still serving his first Life); only had a Ticket of Leave when he died in 1858. There will be others later than this, even in NSW. Peter THOMAS Darwin, AUSTRALIA <pmthomas@bigpond.com>
Well said, Peter. We have a family who definitely fit the catagory of stealing to go to sunnier climes. A Family of Thurstons, Port Jackson: 1809 Dad & two sons stole horses, Transported for life, a few months later two more sons stole horses, transported for life. Now this seems to be a case of 'don't they learn'. But twelve months later another son stole horses and he was transported for life. But when you think about it, was word filtering through that transportation was definitely better that life in England in those times. Mother and grandaughter followed free in 1821. Meg In rainy Burpengary, Qld (hoping it has fallen in the catchment area) Peter Thomas wrote: > G'day, my understanding is that then, as now, there was a distinction > between petit (petty) and grand larceny; although now they are usually > called simple theft and aggravated theft. > > One criterion for separating these categories was the value of the goods > stolen. > > At one point, early in the transportation era, the thresh-hold was one > shilling. But that was increased later: to five shillings, I think. > At a trial, the value of the property was (and still is) a question for > the jury. They were not always as heartless & ignorant as sometimes > portrayed: they could inject some mercy into their verdict by reducing > the value of the property below the relevant thresh-hold. So I have > read secondary sources which cite examples along the lines "stole two > sovereigns, to the value of eleven-pence". > > For much of the transportation era, the price of bread, and other basic > comestibles, was highly unstable. Until 1815, Britain was almost > constantly at war, and sea trade was extremely hampered. That left > Britain largely dependent upon her own produce, which in turn fluctuated > because of weather, and labour shortages, due to extensive recruitment > for the Army & Navy. > > So, the questions begged by the phrase "stealing bread" are: was it a > slice; a loaf; or a cart-load ? And, what was the prevailing price in > that place, and at that time ? > > Balancing all that: there was a period when transportation had no > deterrent effect. The challenge, during that period, for a poor Briton > who wanted to migrate to sunnier shores was to steal something > sufficiently valuable to warrant being prosecuted; but not so valuable > as to be hanged for it; and ideally not to get any more than the minimum > term, which seems to have been seven years. > > These challenges ensured that only the best were transported. > Our ancestors were selected by the finest judges in Britain to become > colonists !* > And remember: > True patriots all: > For be it understood, > They left their country, > For their country's good ! > > (*leading one to wonder if those remaining in Britain tended to > congregate at the shallow end of the gene pool ?) > > Peter THOMAS > Darwin, AUSTRALIA > <pmthomas@bigpond.com> > >
One has to realy think about the reasons behind such a terrible punishment for such a trivial crime. Of course in reality the punishment was a blessing but at the time I don't know that it was thought as such. One reason for the transportation I imagine was to get rid of some of the people so the population would drop but did it work? It worked in the opposite for Tasmania & New South Wales. From thse poor people have emerged a wonderful nation of resourseful people. I am proud of my ancestors who committed a crime as trivial as stealing a cheese. Regards Meg Trudy Cowley wrote: > Hello All > > I think some time ago someone posed the question "Did any convicts get > transported for stealing the proverbial loaf of bread?" > > I have recently come across an Irish female convict transported on Earl Grey > in 1849/1850 who stole bread and was transported for 7 years. Her sister > was transported with her for receiving the bread. Of course, this was at > the height of the great famine in Ireland. > > Regards > > Trudy >
Hello Chris, Peter and others The 'Earl Grey' convict who stole the bread had no prior convictions, but her sister who received it, did have one prior conviction. From the Grangegorman records, it also appears that another woman was transported for receiving some of the same 'batch' of bread. Yes, Peter this was a limit for larceny - my understanding is that it was £5, at least by the 1850s - well in VDL anyway. I have many examples of people being tried for 'larceny under the value of £5' - and these were tried in the courts of petty sessions. Larceny of articles to the value of more than £5 were tried at the quarter sessions or supreme court. I too have come across cases where the value of the goods was 'lessened' in order for the trial to be conducted in the court of petty sessions. The price of bread in Ireland at the time (due to the Great Famine) was very high - bread was out of the reach of the peasants (common people). Regards Trudy Dr Trudy Cowley List Administrator TAS Convicts Rootsweb List tcowley@bigpond.net.au AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com
Hi List This is an interesting subject. As a primary school student (last century!!), when we were taught a little Australian History, I remember we were taught that convicts were transported to Australia/Tasmania for stealing a loaf of bread (and the handkerchief crime quoted by Meg) - and a small percentage were. However, in my experience of researching convict documents I have yet to find a convict being transported when the theft of the bread/handkerchief (or similar "petty" items) was the first conviction for that convict. I have found convicts being transported for committing more "serious crimes" without prior convictions. Trudy, did your Earl Grey convict have any prior convicts? Did her sister have any earlier convictions? And Meg, did Charlotte have earlier convictions? Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trudy Cowley" <tcowley@bigpond.net.au> To: <AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 9:35 AM Subject: [TAS-CON] Loaf of Bread > Hello All > > > > I think some time ago someone posed the question "Did any convicts get > transported for stealing the proverbial loaf of bread?" > > > > I have recently come across an Irish female convict transported on Earl Grey > in 1849/1850 who stole bread and was transported for 7 years. Her sister > was transported with her for receiving the bread. Of course, this was at > the height of the great famine in Ireland. > > > > Regards > > Trudy > > > > Dr Trudy Cowley > > List Administrator > > TAS Convicts Rootsweb List > > <mailto:tcowley@bigpond.net.au> tcowley@bigpond.net.au > > <mailto:AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com> AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > ==== AUS-TAS-CONVICTS Mailing List ==== > Visit Jenny Fawcett's Tasmanian Convicts website at > http://www.genseek.net/constas.htm > > ============================== > Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. > Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx > >
One has to realy think about the reasons behind such a terrible punishment for such a trivial crime. Of course in reality the punishment was a blessing but at the time I don't know that it was thought as such. One reason for the transportation I imagine was to get rid of some of the people so the population would drop but did it work? It worked in the opposite for Tasmania & New South Wales. From thse poor people have emerged a wonderful nation of resourseful people. I am proud of my ancestors who committed a crime as trivial as stealing a cheese. Regards Meg Trudy Cowley wrote: > Hello All > > I think some time ago someone posed the question "Did any convicts get > transported for stealing the proverbial loaf of bread?" > > I have recently come across an Irish female convict transported on Earl Grey > in 1849/1850 who stole bread and was transported for 7 years. Her sister > was transported with her for receiving the bread. Of course, this was at > the height of the great famine in Ireland. > > Regards > > Trudy >
Hello everyone, my convict was transported for 7 years. she didnt have previous convictions. heres the shortened trial notes........ RICHARD KEENE..sworn.. I am servant to Mr. John Meare. On Wednesday evening last, about half past seven oclock, I was at the farther end of the room, by the window , I turned my head round and saw the prisoner came into the room by the side-board. I saw her reach her hand over the side-board ; then I walked up to her, and she got a mug in her hand, she had got it about one inch off the side-board; I asked her what her pleasure was; she said she came to take a glass of water; I immediately walked out of the room and shut the door to. I called one of the servants and desired her to call Mr. Meare: he sent for constable and she was detained. VERDICT .. GUILTY. Transported for seven years Tried by the London Jury before Mr Recorder. Betty New Zealand. _________________________________________________________________ Discover fun and games at @ http://xtramsn.co.nz/kids
G'day, my understanding is that then, as now, there was a distinction between petit (petty) and grand larceny; although now they are usually called simple theft and aggravated theft. One criterion for separating these categories was the value of the goods stolen. At one point, early in the transportation era, the thresh-hold was one shilling. But that was increased later: to five shillings, I think. At a trial, the value of the property was (and still is) a question for the jury. They were not always as heartless & ignorant as sometimes portrayed: they could inject some mercy into their verdict by reducing the value of the property below the relevant thresh-hold. So I have read secondary sources which cite examples along the lines "stole two sovereigns, to the value of eleven-pence". For much of the transportation era, the price of bread, and other basic comestibles, was highly unstable. Until 1815, Britain was almost constantly at war, and sea trade was extremely hampered. That left Britain largely dependent upon her own produce, which in turn fluctuated because of weather, and labour shortages, due to extensive recruitment for the Army & Navy. So, the questions begged by the phrase "stealing bread" are: was it a slice; a loaf; or a cart-load ? And, what was the prevailing price in that place, and at that time ? Balancing all that: there was a period when transportation had no deterrent effect. The challenge, during that period, for a poor Briton who wanted to migrate to sunnier shores was to steal something sufficiently valuable to warrant being prosecuted; but not so valuable as to be hanged for it; and ideally not to get any more than the minimum term, which seems to have been seven years. These challenges ensured that only the best were transported. Our ancestors were selected by the finest judges in Britain to become colonists !* And remember: True patriots all: For be it understood, They left their country, For their country's good ! (*leading one to wonder if those remaining in Britain tended to congregate at the shallow end of the gene pool ?) Peter THOMAS Darwin, AUSTRALIA <pmthomas@bigpond.com> -----Original Message----- From: Trudy Cowley [mailto:tcowley@bigpond.net.au] Sent: Friday, 3 March 2006 8:05 AM To: AUS-TAS-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Loaf of Bread I think some time ago someone posed the question "Did any convicts get transported for stealing the proverbial loaf of bread?" I have recently come across an Irish female convict transported on Earl Grey in 1849/1850 who stole bread and was transported for 7 years. Her sister was transported with her for receiving the bread. Of course, this was at the height of the great famine in Ireland. Dr Trudy Cowley List Administrator TAS Convicts Rootsweb List