Two I missed to add to the list It may well of have been posted by someone else but to be sure It is perhaps the "_MOTHER_" of all genea references www.cyndislist.com Be careful not to type it as cyndYlist ie with a Y which is a commercial site listing and for the elusive males - someone may have a DNA profile there see WWW,ysearch.org The catchca passwords are a bit of pain but worth the effort Alan Melbourne ps could I also have a master copy please