I am not sure of this, but it is worth looking at: as I remember it, in Dutch (of course closely related to German) there is no "y" and ij is used in some words. the sound is somewhat like a y, and apparently some people adopt a y in place of ij, especially for names, sometimes interchangeably. So, i wonder if the "umlaut" is the dots of ij, with the ij in transformation to y. Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:09:16 +1100 From: PD & LE Strong <plstrong@pnc.com.au> To: AUS-QLD-SE-Germans-L@rootsweb.com Message-Id: <p04310100ba0b25370b16@[203.220.155.6]> Subject: Changing German Surname Pronunciations Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 23/11/2002, Philip Strong wrote: >I have tracked down some 1870's letters written around Gayndah, Qld by my g-grandfather WEDEMEYER, (b. 1825 in Goslar near Hannover, Germany). The letters were in English language and in a typical rounded English script and addressed to the Qld Lands Department. Significantly, on four occasions he signs his name with a definite umlaut over the Y of WEDEMEYER.... two vertical strokes. A research archivist from Germany tells me that she has found the Y umlaut in 17th century archives "very often" and it was not found in any particular region. However, I still don't know how it would have been definitively pronounced in the context of "WEDEMEYER". Can anyone advise? I asked lecturers from the German Departments of New England and Sydney Universities for comment. New England Uni said: "a retired colleague here in Armidale who is a scholar of middle high German, old high German, old Norse (etc) thinks it could be a flourish of the baroque era. At that time capitalisation came in for nouns - and most probably for names - and hence some embellishments may have taken place. But that is only his guess. As to the pronunciation, English speakers would definitely say Wedemeyer as 'ear', whereas German speakers would pronounce it like Meier/Meyer: 'mire'. Sydney Uni said: "The two strokes written above the 'Y' cannot strictly be called an Umlaut, since Umlaut is defined as a rounding of the vowel, and an 'i'-sound, as represented by your 'Y', does not admit of rounding. My NEU colleague is quite certainly right in describing it as a scriptal flourish. At all times in central Germany (i.e. the Hannover region),at least since the 16th centur! y, the syllable will have been pronounced like English 'mire'. There does seem to be a tendency for such names in Australia to attract the pronunciation 'mere'." So there we are... perhaps it is just baroque ornamentation without function? Does anyone else have these "scriptal flourishes" in old letters by their ancestors?

--=======2FA41DE6======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-26275A67; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Ian and Phill , In the dutch language we have the letter "y" but it is mostly found in=20 words of foreign origin, we have an additional letter which is called the=20 long ei =3D ij . The ei sound is pronounced as the in the English "say". = The=20 " ij " is pronounced more or less the same as in "say" but a littel more=20 drawn out thus "saay ". When written in longhand writing it would appear as= =20 a =FF when printed ir appears as ij. I have often seen the ij written as =FF= =20 when typed by a typewriter, especially when typed in capital letters ( =9F= =20 ). I am not an expert in languages so I have looked up some official=20 explanations for the Dutch letter IJ : Diphthongs and double vowels: 1. ei-/ij-: There is no difference between the pronunciation nor between=20 the functions of these two symbols. The sound resembles the ay-sound in the= =20 English words say and take, including the i-sound at the end but shorter.=20 The meaning of the Dutch words rijst(rice) and reist (the verb `travels')=20 can, in spoken form, only be determined by the context in which the words=20 appear. Y Note: The letter Y as first letter is found only in words of foreign=20 origin in Dutch. In this location, it is pronounced as a Dutch J. One can=20 also increasingly find Y in places historically occupied by the letter IJ;= =20 in this context, Y is pronounced as the Dutch IJ or EI diphthong. The=20 single letter IJ, traditionally placed between X and Z in the Dutch=20 alphabet, is increasingly omitted from Dutch dictionaries Here is a link to a webpage about the Dutch letter IJ and the use of Y. It= =20 is very interesting: http://www.rudhar.com/lingtics/nlij_en.htm and here a site about old dutch handwriting http://homepage.mac.com/rabbel/warehouse/handwritingalphabet.html I also had a look in the dutch telephone book to see if the name WEDEMEIJER= =20 is used as a dutch name and found many WEDEMEIJER S and WEDEMA but no=20 WEDEMEYERS. On the website of Klaus-Dieter Reinecke (=20 http://www.klaus-reinecke.de/names.htm )he says he has information on Wedemeier / Wedemeyer Bothfeld / Hannover Gross Buchholz / Hannover prior=20 to 1770 prior to 1800 Wehmeier / Wedemeier Hattorf a. Harz Hoerden a. Harz= =20 prior to 1640 prior to 1650 Also there is a great website for the city of Goslar at := http://www.goslar.de/ and under the section B=FCger im internet ( Citizens on the Internet ) under= =20 the W there is a mention of a one Jan WEDEMEYER in Goslar. Personally I don't think there is a dutch origin to your umlaut over the=20 Y but you never know and I hope this information is of some help. Kind regards Michelle van Kemenade-Kranz At 13:08 30-11-2002 +1100, Ian Cranwell wrote: >I am not sure of this, but it is worth looking at: as I remember it, in=20 >Dutch (of course closely related to German) there is no "y" and ij is used= =20 >in some words. the sound is somewhat like a y, and apparently some people= =20 >adopt a y in place of ij, especially for names, sometimes interchangeably.= =20 >So, i wonder if the "umlaut" is the dots of ij, with the ij in=20 >transformation to y. > > >Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:09:16 +1100 >From: PD & LE Strong <plstrong@pnc.com.au> >To: AUS-QLD-SE-Germans-L@rootsweb.com >Message-Id: <p04310100ba0b25370b16@[203.220.155.6]> >Subject: Changing German Surname Pronunciations >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >At 23/11/2002, Philip Strong wrote: > >I have tracked down some 1870's letters written around Gayndah, Qld by=20 > my g-grandfather WEDEMEYER, (b. 1825 in Goslar near Hannover, Germany).=20 > The letters were in English language and in a typical rounded English=20 > script and addressed to the Qld Lands Department. Significantly, on four= =20 > occasions he signs his name with a definite umlaut over the Y of=20 > WEDEMEYER.... two vertical strokes. A research archivist from Germany=20 > tells me that she has found the Y umlaut in 17th century archives "very=20 > often" and it was not found in any particular region. However, I still=20 > don't know how it would have been definitively pronounced in the context= =20 > of "WEDEMEYER". Can anyone advise? >I asked lecturers from the German Departments of New England and Sydney=20 >Universities for comment. New England Uni said: "a retired colleague here= =20 >in Armidale who is a scholar of middle high German, old high German, old=20 >Norse (etc) thinks it could be a flourish of the baroque era. At that time= =20 >capitalisation came in for nouns - and most probably for names - and hence= =20 >some embellishments may have taken place. But that is only his guess. As=20 >to the pronunciation, English speakers would definitely say Wedemeyer as=20 >'ear', whereas German speakers would pronounce it like Meier/Meyer:=20 >'mire'. Sydney Uni said: "The two strokes written above the 'Y' cannot=20 >strictly be called an Umlaut, since Umlaut is defined as a rounding of the= =20 >vowel, and an 'i'-sound, as represented by your 'Y', does not admit of=20 >rounding. My NEU colleague is quite certainly right in describing it as a= =20 >scriptal flourish. At all times in central Germany (i.e. the Hannover=20 >region),at least since the 16th centur! >y, the syllable will have been pronounced like English 'mire'. There does= =20 >seem to be a tendency for such names in Australia to attract the=20 >pronunciation 'mere'." >So there we are... perhaps it is just baroque ornamentation without=20 >function? Does anyone else have these "scriptal flourishes" in old letters= =20 >by their ancestors? > > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D AUS-QLD-SE-Germans Mailing List =3D=3D=3D=3D >A List for the research of the descendants of the Germans who migrated to= =20 >South East Queensland, Australia. > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records,= =20 >go to: >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=3D571&sourceid=3D1237 > > > > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.427 / Virus Database: 240 - Release Date: 6-12-2002 --=======2FA41DE6======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-26275A67 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.427 / Virus Database: 240 - Release Date: 6-12-2002 --=======2FA41DE6=======--