When I made this statement originally I said that I am not sure of the facts relating to it but it was one explanation. This I do know for sure: According to family legend Peter Mutze and Anna Bickhardt eloped, more likely run away from their home in Düsseldorf. Legend says that both families objected to the relationship because she was the daughter of a leading industrialist and he was the son of a mill worker. They found their way to Hamburg and somehow obtained a fare on a migrant ship bound for the USA. The ship sailed from Hamburg to an English port but I have yet to find out which English port. Because of a war in the USA the English government would not allow migrant ships a clearance to sail for there. The captain did however get a clearance to sail for Moreton Bay and all of his passengers were diverted as migrants to Moreton Bay. I confess that I have yet to find out which ship they sailed on but the date was 1864. They were married by the Lutheran pastor at Nundah three days after arrival here. How factual this story is I cannot say because it has been passed down from generation to generation and I have seen no positive evidence. I also know for fact that the ships bringing the German migrants to the Hunter valley in 1849 and thereabouts sailed from Hamburg to London before getting a clearance to sail for Sydney. This may have been a part of their contract. Perhaps clearance is the wrong word. I might say that I have here a document produced by a Kummerow descendant who says that his ancestor Fred Kummerow was also destined for the USA but change when the ship arrived in England. As I have here a copy of the actual contract between him and Heussler and the grazier I know for fact that his intent was always to come to Queensland but what I do not know is whether or not the ship stoped at an English port. Albert Grulke -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Lisa Burton Sent: Saturday, 15 March 2008 12:52 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [SEQ-Germans] Sea route from Scandinavia/Germany I feel I, too, would question the statement that "many of the ships bringing German migrants toAustralia left Hamburg or Bremen and sailed to English ports." This may, in deed, have been the situation in some instances and may be more relevant to 'German' immigration in the latter part of the 19th century; a period, I admit, I don't know a lot about. However, I don't believe it was prevalent practice in the mid 1800s. As Alan has stated, a great majority of the German immigrants to Australia were bought out under various Government-instigated schemes. A great deal of time, organization and money was involved in such ventures and the major parties involved certainly didn't make it a practice to change their minds 'willy-nilly' re. ports, destinations, etc. In fact, in the isolated cases where an immigration agent, or similar, breached their obligations, a great fuss resulted; measures taken to recoup monies expended, reputations besmirched in the contemporary newspapers, Contracts terminated, etc. In addition, as these arrangements were made between sovereign 'German' states and the Colonies of New South Wales and/or Queensland, for example, a ship engaged by one of the immigration agents departing from Hamburg or Bremen surely wouldn't have required 'clearance' from an English port to sail to, say, Sydney or Moreton Bay, would it? I know that, in the case of the "Solon" - my pet obsession! - which departed Bremen for Moreton Bay in December 1858, she definitely did not call at an English port; although Lloyd's List does record that she was sighted off Ramsgate, England, on 30th December. Rgs Lisa Gladstone, Q > From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 21:28:32 +1000> Subject: Re: [SEQ-Germans] Sea route from Scandinavia/Germany> > My reading of various books and documents indicates that in 1879 the> Queensland Government directed its Agent-General in London to terminate all> assisted immigration from Germany and the Scandanavian countries and also to> reduce the intake from the British Isles. In 1880 limited immigration was> re-introduced but the only Germans brought out on a free passage were those> nominated by relatives or friends in the Colony of Queensland. They were> expected to pay their own way to Plymouth for embarkation on British ships> and sail with British and other migrants. In 1884 London replaced Plymouth> as the main port of embarkation. It was seen as an advantage to sail on a> British ship as that enabled the German passengers to learn some English and> to gain some understanding of the Anglo-Saxon way of life! .> I have not found anything to suggest that German migrants changed their> minds about their destination along the way - although this could have been> the case with some - or that ships destinations were changed along the way.> It appears that most German migration was arranged by Agents who were paid> fees by the Country of destination e.g. Queensland and any change of> destination would have been resisted strongly or perhaps made impossible by> the Agents who, I believe, issued some at least of the documentation for> travel.> > Alan NITZ.> _________________________________________________________________ It's simple! Sell your car for just $30 at CarPoint.com.au http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fsecure%2Dau%2Eimrworldwide%2 Ecom%2Fcgi%2Dbin%2Fa%2Fci%5F450304%2Fet%5F2%2Fcg%5F801459%2Fpi%5F1004813%2Fa i%5F859641&_t=762955845&_r=tig_OCT07&_m=EXT A List for the research for the descendants of the Germans who migrated to South East Queensland, Australia. Archives - http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/AUS/AUS-QLD-SE-Germans.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi My understanding is as follows: Before the 1870s it was common to sail direct from Hamburg or Bremen. It is interesting to note that the early departure lists for Bremen have been lost. However, after the 1870s, until the early days of federation,while some ships continued to sale direct it was common to go via an English port like London or Plymouth. My great-grandfather KAPERNICKS brother Wilhelm Friedrich KAPERNICK went via London, leaving in 1880 from Plymouth on the Duke of Sutherland with mostly Irish immigrants. My great grandfather Hermann KAPERNICK sailed via London with his brother Carl in 1888. I admit I don't know how they travelled to England. I believe my great grandfather Hermann actually sailed from Stettin and not Hamburg or Bremen. Stettin is now Szcecin in Poland. In the previous decade, however, my gr-great grandparents BEUTEL came direct from Hamburg. During the period of the Civil War certainly some were not allowed to continue journeys from London to USA. It is perhaps here that the practice was more always to not go direct, although my gr-gr grandparents KOCH did sail direct from Hamburg to New York in the 1870s. Later their son came to South Australia. The only continent I have not found large groups of relatives in my tree is Asia and there still are a couple! Also, I would imagine how many candidates at once a particular immigrant agent had found in an area and whether there were enough for a direct shipload. I don't know if me entering the discussion helps clear things up but there is my two bobs worth as my grandfather would say. Regards Chris --- albert grulke <[email protected]> wrote: > When I made this statement originally I said that I > am not sure of the facts > relating to it but it was one explanation. > This I do know for sure: > According to family legend Peter Mutze and Anna > Bickhardt eloped, more > likely run away from their home in Düsseldorf. > Legend says that both > families objected to the relationship because she > was the daughter of a > leading industrialist and he was the son of a mill > worker. > They found their way to Hamburg and somehow obtained > a fare on a migrant > ship bound for the USA. > The ship sailed from Hamburg to an English port but > I have yet to find out > which English port. > Because of a war in the USA the English government > would not allow migrant > ships a clearance to sail for there. > The captain did however get a clearance to sail for > Moreton Bay and all of > his passengers were diverted as migrants to Moreton > Bay. > I confess that I have yet to find out which ship > they sailed on but the date > was 1864. > They were married by the Lutheran pastor at Nundah > three days after arrival > here. > How factual this story is I cannot say because it > has been passed down from > generation to generation and I have seen no positive > evidence. > I also know for fact that the ships bringing the > German migrants to the > Hunter valley in 1849 and thereabouts sailed from > Hamburg to London before > getting a clearance to sail for Sydney. This may > have been a part of their > contract. Perhaps clearance is the wrong word. > I might say that I have here a document produced by > a Kummerow descendant > who says that his ancestor Fred Kummerow was also > destined for the USA but > change when the ship arrived in England. As I have > here a copy of the actual > contract between him and Heussler and the grazier I > know for fact that his > intent was always to come to Queensland but what I > do not know is whether or > not the ship stoped at an English port. > Albert Grulke > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On > Behalf Of Lisa Burton > Sent: Saturday, 15 March 2008 12:52 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [SEQ-Germans] Sea route from > Scandinavia/Germany > > > > I feel I, too, would question the statement that > "many of the ships bringing > German migrants toAustralia left Hamburg or Bremen > and sailed to English > ports." > > This may, in deed, have been the situation in some > instances and may be more > relevant to 'German' immigration in the latter part > of the 19th century; a > period, I admit, I don't know a lot about. However, > I don't believe it was > prevalent practice in the mid 1800s. > > As Alan has stated, a great majority of the German > immigrants to Australia > were bought out under various Government-instigated > schemes. A great deal of > time, organization and money was involved in such > ventures and the major > parties involved certainly didn't make it a practice > to change their minds > 'willy-nilly' re. ports, destinations, etc. In fact, > in the isolated cases > where an immigration agent, or similar, breached > their obligations, a great > fuss resulted; measures taken to recoup monies > expended, reputations > besmirched in the contemporary newspapers, Contracts > terminated, etc. > > In addition, as these arrangements were made between > sovereign 'German' > states and the Colonies of New South Wales and/or > Queensland, for example, a > ship engaged by one of the immigration agents > departing from Hamburg or > Bremen surely wouldn't have required 'clearance' > from an English port to > sail to, say, Sydney or Moreton Bay, would it? > > I know that, in the case of the "Solon" - my pet > obsession! - which departed > Bremen for Moreton Bay in December 1858, she > definitely did not call at an > English port; although Lloyd's List does record that > she was sighted off > Ramsgate, England, on 30th December. > > Rgs > Lisa > Gladstone, Q > > > > From: [email protected]> To: > [email protected]> > Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 21:28:32 +1000> Subject: Re: > [SEQ-Germans] Sea route > from Scandinavia/Germany> > My reading of various > books and documents > indicates that in 1879 the> Queensland Government > directed its Agent-General > in London to terminate all> assisted immigration > from Germany and the > Scandanavian countries and also to> reduce the > intake from the British > Isles. In 1880 limited immigration was> > re-introduced but the only Germans > brought out on a free passage were those> nominated > by relatives or friends > in the Colony of Queensland. They were> expected to > pay their own way to > Plymouth for embarkation on British ships> and sail > with British and other > migrants. In 1884 London replaced Plymouth> as the > main port of embarkation. > It was seen as an advantage to sail on a> British > ship as that enabled the > German passengers to learn some English and> to gain > some understanding of > the Anglo-Saxon way of life! > .> I have not found anything to suggest that German > migrants changed their> > minds about their destination along the way - > although this could have been> > the case with some - or that ships destinations were > changed along the way.> > It appears that most German migration was arranged > by Agents who were paid> > fees by the Country of destination e.g. Queensland > and any change of> > destination would have been resisted strongly or > perhaps made impossible by> > the Agents who, I believe, issued some at least of > the documentation for> > travel.> > Alan NITZ.> > _________________________________________________________________ > It's simple! Sell your car for just $30 at > CarPoint.com.au > http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fsecure%2Dau%2Eimrworldwide%2 > Ecom%2Fcgi%2Dbin%2Fa%2Fci%5F450304%2Fet%5F2%2Fcg%5F801459%2Fpi%5F1004813%2Fa > i%5F859641&_t=762955845&_r=tig_OCT07&_m=EXT > A List for the research for the descendants of the > Germans who migrated to > South East Queensland, Australia. > Archives - > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/AUS/AUS-QLD-SE-Germans.html > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > to > [email protected] with the > word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > > > A List for the research for the descendants of the > Germans who migrated to South East Queensland, > Australia. > Archives - > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/AUS/AUS-QLD-SE-Germans.html > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > to [email protected] with the > word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail