Hi Thank you for the emails addressed to me or my comments. No more, thanks! It would be really nice if we could get back to helping one another now. So then, who will try to help me with my research on the voyage and passengers of the Erin-go-Bragh in 1862 please? Yep, they were mostly IRISH, but what's wrong with my asking our GERMANs? My husband is more or less half and half and most of you are too (I think):-) Cheers Bev kerlindavidbev@ozemail.com.au Researching (all to South East Queensland): CANTLE/BARNETT Gloucestershire England COURTNEY/DALTON Camberwell England GIESEMANN/TIMM Niedersachsen Prussia HANSEN/HENRICKSEN/etc Vends Herred Amt Odense Denmark HARRISON/WILLIS Co Armagh Northern Ireland KERLIN/BELL Co Down Northern Ireland YOUNG/YOUNGS/BARKER Norfolk England

Elizabeth I apologise as list admin - but tonight has been the first time I have had a chance to read my emails from 1 Sep - (three days) and I still have over 20 digest emails to read - not only as List Admin but for my own research. I agree about Copyright and did not realise that it was such a long document as this. I think I have read page 5 and I am not aware of how many more pages. Further, I was not asked for permission! 10% I understand can be copied without breaching copyright - has anyone asked for permission for it to be copied? Chris, you efforts are very much appreciated by many researchers, but like Elizabeth, I too am concerned about the copy right issues, as much as I am about the privacy issues I am well known for on this list. Lorrae List Admin 8.34 pm Tues 3Sep02 Qld time -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth [mailto:aliens@bigpond.net.au] Sent: Monday, 2 September 2002 5:52 PM To: AUS-QLD-SE-Germans-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: History of the Uckermark To all on the List, Thank you for you e-mails re Les Morlands paper. I have already contacted Chris off line re COPYRIGHT. I feel the best approach for those interested in a copy of this paper would have been to contact the GSQ and ask for a copy of the Journal or a photo copy of the item. To put up Les Morlands paper in full without his permission leaves Chris Sichter open to be sued. I am very surprised that our new list owner allowed Chris to go online with copyright material. Elizabeth ______________________________

Hi I would like to hear from anyone researching Henry Harte who arrived on the "Earl Derby" which left Plymouth on 27/10/1883 and arrived Maryborough on 22/1/1884. He was listed as a single man. Ian Kelly Sandstone Point Q

Bev I could not agree more and well said. Margaret (who, for my sins, started all this) -----Original Message----- From: Bev [mailto:kerlindavidbev@ozemail.com.au] Sent: Tuesday, 3 September 2002 10:23 AM To: AUS-QLD-SE-Germans-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: History of the Uckermark Hi Friends/List Members A few of us have had the privilege of spending time with Les Moreland in the comfort of his own home. He is a truly lovely man, with knowledge we can only dream of having. He would not object to sharing his work with anyone. But then not all would know this! In any case, I don't think that sharing data is a breach of copyright. The material is not being used 'for gain', but of course, I could stand corrected (if you must -g). However, I do strenuously object to any aspersions cast on Lorrae's leadership of the Group. She is one of we 'oldies', ie old members, who would do anything possible to help any one of us. She is also one of the few who will stand up and be counted, and pull anyone into line when necessary. Perhaps if someone thinks strongly enough that a fellow Member, MAYBE, is doing the wrong thing, the nicer approach would be to write a personal note?! This List has had the nicest and most helpful people among its Members. Let's keep it that way. Keep smiling Bev kerlindavidbev@ozemail.com.au Researching (all to South East Queensland): CANTLE/BARNETT Gloucestershire England COURTNEY/DALTON Camberwell England GIESEMANN/TIMM Niedersachsen Prussia HANSEN/HENRICKSEN/etc Vends Herred Odense Amt Denmark HARRISON/WILLIS Co Armagh Northern Ireland KERLIN/BELL Co Down Northern Ireland YOUNG/YOUNGS/BARKER Norfolk England ==== AUS-QLD-SE-Germans Mailing List ==== A List for the research of the descendants of the Germans who migrated to South East Queensland, Australia. ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

Dear All, To help clear up copyright issues & any other legal issues, people may find the following site useful - http://www.austlii.edu.au It covers cases and legislation, state and commonwealth, as well as some overseas jurisdictions. It can be pretty hard going, given the legal jargon. Regards, Anne

Hi Friends/List Members A few of us have had the privilege of spending time with Les Moreland in the comfort of his own home. He is a truly lovely man, with knowledge we can only dream of having. He would not object to sharing his work with anyone. But then not all would know this! In any case, I don't think that sharing data is a breach of copyright. The material is not being used 'for gain', but of course, I could stand corrected (if you must -g). However, I do strenuously object to any aspersions cast on Lorrae's leadership of the Group. She is one of we 'oldies', ie old members, who would do anything possible to help any one of us. She is also one of the few who will stand up and be counted, and pull anyone into line when necessary. Perhaps if someone thinks strongly enough that a fellow Member, MAYBE, is doing the wrong thing, the nicer approach would be to write a personal note?! This List has had the nicest and most helpful people among its Members. Let's keep it that way. Keep smiling Bev kerlindavidbev@ozemail.com.au Researching (all to South East Queensland): CANTLE/BARNETT Gloucestershire England COURTNEY/DALTON Camberwell England GIESEMANN/TIMM Niedersachsen Prussia HANSEN/HENRICKSEN/etc Vends Herred Odense Amt Denmark HARRISON/WILLIS Co Armagh Northern Ireland KERLIN/BELL Co Down Northern Ireland YOUNG/YOUNGS/BARKER Norfolk England

Dear Gary, Thank you for the web page in Germany. I am sure it will be of interest to all those researchers with ancestors from Uckermark. Elizabeth At 07:38 PM 2/09/2002 +1000, you wrote: >With regard to the Uckermark I found this an interesting site to visit >although you need to use a web page translator. I used altavista to give a >reasonable translation. > >http://home.t-online.de/home/C.u.H.Streich/homepage.htm > >& http://babelfish.altavista.com/ > >Gary >

With regard to the Uckermark I found this an interesting site to visit although you need to use a web page translator. I used altavista to give a reasonable translation. http://home.t-online.de/home/C.u.H.Streich/homepage.htm & http://babelfish.altavista.com/ Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth" <aliens@bigpond.net.au> To: <AUS-QLD-SE-Germans-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 5:11 PM Subject: History of Uckermark Dear List, I have a copy of German Migration Why, Where & Sources, a paper presented at the 13th Annual Convention by Wes Morland. I am not sure if this is the publication you require. It was reprinted in Generation Vol 14 No 2 December 1991 the Journal of the Genealogical Society of Queensland. As for any information on Germans who settled in Queensland or on the areas in Germany they migrated from, the two top people to contact are Eric Kopittke and Margaret Jenner who will probably know if the article I have is the one you referred to. Contact me privately and let me know if you need more information. Elizabeth At 02:32 PM 1/09/2002 +1000, you wrote: To the List manager and long-time members of the list I understand that in about 1990, Les Moreland gave a talk to the Qld Genealogical Society on the History of the Uckermark. If a transcript of this talk is available for distribution, I would be most interested to receive a copy. Regards Margaret Szalay (nee SCHMIDT - Beaudesert) Researching SCHMIDT and BUHK mszalay@bigpond.net.au ______________________________

To all on the List, Thank you for you e-mails re Les Morlands paper. I have already contacted Chris off line re COPYRIGHT. I feel the best approach for those interested in a copy of this paper would have been to contact the GSQ and ask for a copy of the Journal or a photo copy of the item. To put up Les Morlands paper in full without his permission leaves Chris Sichter open to be sued. I am very surprised that our new list owner allowed Chris to go online with copyright material. Elizabeth Chris Sichter wrote Hello Everyone, >Don't know if this is what has been referred to but I have a copy of a paper >that was printed in the Dec 1991 edition of the GSQ mag "Generation" and >have been transferring it to Microsoft Word. I will post it to the list page >by page to avoid problems of file size or alternatively when finished I can >e-mail it to the list as an attachment in MS Word format. What would people >prefer? > >Regards, >Chris Sichter > > >Page 1. > >GERMAN MIGRATION: >WHY, WHERE AND SOURCES > >Paper presented at the 13th Annual Convention by >LES MORELAND

Carol One suggestion is to check the National Archives of Australia to see if naturalisation papers are there. Go to: www.naa.gov.au and go to record search, click on search and sign in as a guest or new researcher (no charge). From this you can key in key words, eg. Muller and scroll through names. If your ancestor is there then you can request copy of papers for a small fee. I have been very sucessful with this site and find them very prompt and professional. Regards Donna Spencer SEARCHING: HAASE / ZUMBANSEN ----- Original Message ----- From: "carol pratt" <carolp@iprimus.com.au> To: <AUS-QLD-SE-Germans-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 8:58 PM Subject: german ancestors > Hi there ...looks like you have some German interests coming into Qld...I > have one I am trying to find and not too sure where or how to get > started.......are there shipping lists to check for Germans into Qld....Mine > was a Frederick MILLER on his marriage cert in 1865 (Qld) to Ann > Daniels....I guess he may have been a Frederick MULLER I know his parents > names any ideas? I wondered about 'naturalisation papers" > > would be grateful for any pointers > > cheers > > Carol > Melbourne > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kerry Muller" <kmm@ihug.com.au> > To: <AUS-QLD-SE-Germans-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 8:36 PM > Subject: Re: History of the Uckermark > > > > I would be very interested as well. > > > > Kerry Muller > > Melbourne > > > > MULLER, BERLIN, HAMMERMEISTER, GERBER, KIRCHNER, VENZ, STIBBE, KRAATZ, > > KRAUSE, KLEIER, STUMER, STRASSBURG, VOIGT, ROSENTRETER, KOPP > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Joan Baumann" <farjoy@optusnet.com.au> > > To: <AUS-QLD-SE-Germans-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 8:40 PM > > Subject: Re: History of the Uckermark > > > > > > > Add me to that list too please > > > > > > Joan Baumann > > > Hervey Bay > > > Queensland > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Shane " <shane@spin.net.au> > > > To: <AUS-QLD-SE-Germans-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 4:09 PM > > > Subject: Re: History of the Uckermark > > > > > > > > > > I would be very interested in this as well. > > > > > > > > Shane London > > > > Sydney > > > > Researching VENZ > > > > > > > > > To the List manager and long-time members of the list > > > > > > > > > > I understand that in about 1990, Les Moreland gave a talk to the Qld > > > > > Genealogical Society on the History of the Uckermark. If a > transcript > > > > > of this talk is available for distribution, I would be most > interested > > > > > to receive a copy. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > Margaret Szalay (nee SCHMIDT - Beaudesert) > > > > > Researching SCHMIDT and BUHK > > > > > > > > > > mszalay@bigpond.net.au > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== AUS-QLD-SE-Germans Mailing List ==== > > > > A List for the research of the descendants of the Germans who migrated > > to > > > South East Queensland, Australia. > > > > > > > > ============================== > > > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy > > records, > > > go to: > > > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== AUS-QLD-SE-Germans Mailing List ==== > > > A List for the research of the descendants of the Germans who migrated > to > > South East Queensland, Australia. > > > > > > ============================== > > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy > records, > > go to: > > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== AUS-QLD-SE-Germans Mailing List ==== > > A List for the research of the descendants of the Germans who migrated to > South East Queensland, Australia. > > > > ============================== > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > go to: > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > ==== AUS-QLD-SE-Germans Mailing List ==== > A List for the research for the descendants of the Germans who migrated to South East Queensland, Australia. > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

Sherene. Whilst I am not directly related to this family, they share the same surname as me. As such I haver gathered some information , which I have listed below. I would be interested in any extra information you can provide me as that way I know which person belongs to which Hoppe Family. Wayne Hoppe Descendants of Albert Julius Hoppe Generation No. 1 1. ALBERT JULIUS HOPPE was born 1851, and died 25 July 1939 in Qld # B44613. He married FREDERICKE BERTHA PLATZKE, daughter of FRANZ PLATZKE and HENRIETTA SAHENKIN. More About ALBERT JULIUS HOPPE: Emigration: 1876, Lammershagen from Neuhof Lavenburg - Landmann More About FREDERICKE BERTHA PLATZKE: Emigration: 1876, Lammershagen from Neuhof Lavenburg - Frau Children of ALBERT HOPPE and FREDERICKE PLATZKE are: 2. i. ANNIE MARY2 HOPPE, d. 20 January 1929, Qld # 1512. ii. THERSA AUGUSTUS HOPPE, b. 1875; d. 1 January 1921, Qld # 287. 3. iii. ALBERT HERMAN HOPPE, b. 6 November 1877, Qld # 4860. iv. ALVINA MARY HOPPE, b. 23 August 1879, Qld # 5354; m. GUSTAF WILLY PETERSON, 16 March 1899, Qld # 578. 4. v. EDITH BERTHA HOPPE, b. 17 December 1881, Qld # 1730. vi. JULIUS HOPPE, b. 16 February 1883, Qld # 84/ 2236; d. 22 March 1929, Qld # 1509. vii. EMEL ADOLPH HOPPE, b. 12 August 1885, Qld # 2510; d. 9 October 1888, Qld # 1347. viii. EMMA MARTHA HOPPE, b. 4 June 1887, Qld # 2288; m. JOHN ZELLER, 19 December 1906, Qld # 703. 5. ix. HENRY FREDERICK HOPPE, b. 28 June 1891, Qld # 3352. x. EMILIE ELIZABETH HOPPE, b. 17 December 1893, Qld # 94 /2924; m. OSCAR ALBERT FRANK ANDERSON, 23 March 1911, Qld # 775. 6. xi. ARTHUR ALDRED PLATZKE HOPPE, b. 14 September 1896, Qld # 3092. Generation No. 2 2. ANNIE MARY2 HOPPE (ALBERT JULIUS1) died 20 January 1929 in Qld # 1512. Child of ANNIE MARY HOPPE is: i. LILLIAN MAY3 HOPPE, b. 29 November 1913, Qld # 3492; m. CECIL NEAL, 6 February 1937, Qld # 331. 3. ALBERT HERMAN2 HOPPE (ALBERT JULIUS1) was born 6 November 1877 in Qld # 4860. He married KATHLEEN WINIFRED QUINN 23 April 1912 in Qld # 3321. Children of ALBERT HOPPE and KATHLEEN QUINN are: i. ARTHUR JOSEPH3 HOPPE, b. 5 May 1913, Qld # 13751. ii. MILDRED AMELIA HOPPE, b. 11 August 1917, Qld # 08/908; m. COLIN JOHN RICHARD ABBEY, 9 July 1935, Qld # 2861. iii. MAVIS BERTHA HOPPE, b. 11 August 1917, Qld # 08/907; m. JOHN ALEXANDER STEWART, 2 July 1935, Qld # 2860. iv. HENRY WILLIAM HOPPE, b. 19 July 1915, Qld # 8942. 4. EDITH BERTHA2 HOPPE (ALBERT JULIUS1) was born 17 December 1881 in Qld # 1730. She married ROBERT ELLIS 15 April 1911 in Qld # 776. Children of EDITH HOPPE and ROBERT ELLIS are: i. HENRIETTA WILHELMINA3 HOPPE, b. 5 May 1903, Qld # 2462. 7. ii. GEORGE WILLIAM HOPPE, b. 17 December 1908, Qld # 09/2678. 5. HENRY FREDERICK2 HOPPE (ALBERT JULIUS1) was born 28 June 1891 in Qld # 3352. He married (1) ROSE ANN MCGILL 4 March 1912 in Qld # 3282, daughter of CHARLES HENRY MCGILL. He married (2) VIRGINIA LOUISA LENZ 4 June 1938 in Qld # 2454. Children of HENRY HOPPE and ROSE MCGILL are: i. LILLIAN ROSE3 HOPPE, b. 10 December 1912, Qld # 3110; d. 5 December 1913, Qld # 1082. ii. CECIL HENRY HOPPE, b. 6 July 1916, Qld # 8169. 6. ARTHUR ALDRED PLATZKE2 HOPPE (ALBERT JULIUS1) was born 14 September 1896 in Qld # 3092. He married ANNIE MCDONNELL 11 June 1919 in Qld # 970. Child of ARTHUR HOPPE and ANNIE MCDONNELL is: i. GLORIA MAY3 HOPPE, d. 3 June 1930, Qld # B11149. Generation No. 3 7. GEORGE WILLIAM3 HOPPE (EDITH BERTHA2, ALBERT JULIUS1) was born 17 December 1908 in Qld # 09/2678. He married EILEEN NORA DORIS O'CONNOR 21 November 1933 in Qld # 3771, daughter of THOMAS O'CONNOR and AMY WHITE. Child of GEORGE HOPPE and EILEEN O'CONNOR is: i. WILLIAM JOHN4 HOPPE, d. 18 February 1938, Qld # 1074. -----Original Message----- From: ShereneTregellas [mailto:tregellas@norex.com.au] Sent: Friday, 30 August 2002 8:41 AM To: AUS-QLD-SE-Germans-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Hoppe - Platzke Good Morning List, I am helping a friend with her research and wonder if anyone on the list has a connection with this couple. Albert Julius Hoppe married Fredericke Bertha Platzke pre 1877. Not sure if the marriage took place in Queensland or Germany at this point. A son Albert Julius was born 6 Nov 1877 in QLD. Any help will be much appreciated. Best Wishes Sherene Tregellas Northern NSW ==== AUS-QLD-SE-Germans Mailing List ==== A List for the research of the descendants of the Germans who migrated to South East Queensland, Australia. ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 .

Page 5 The push from Germany has been fully illustrated and it must also be remembered that part of political thinking of that time was to get rid of the poor, the unemployed, and the dispossessed by sending them out to the colonies, although when Germany began building itself into a world power, they became alarmed at the wholesale loss of population and tried to stem the tide. Bismarck himself said, "Viewed from a national standpoint, emigrants are to be considered s deserters. For the state to aid them is impractical and the desire behind the exodus can only be explained by a lack of national pride". Now what of the pull from Queensland? In the early days of the squattocracy, that is, before separation, the stations in the interior were plagued with serious labour shortages. Some of the squatters, and in particular, Edward Lord of Toowoomba, recognized the qualities of the Germans and began bringing them in to work as shepherds and labourers. To quote the gossipy olf chronicler, Nehemiah Bartley, "The two shiploads of Germans who arrived by the "Aurora" and the "Nerbz" were a perfect Godsend. They had the greatest difficulty getting here. These immigrants wee the result of a special effort put forward by the squatters and paid for by them too. Kirchner, one of the firm of Kirchner and Co. of Sydney went to Germany and engaged them under an agreement for two years, the squatters paying on arrival here 16 pounds for each man. The immigrants had, according to the agreement, to pay off the 16 pounds during the two years, but only a few of the squatters deducted the amount. I remember Beck and Brown of Tara employing 13 of these people and did not deduct anything from their earnings. The majority of the men turned out to be excellent servants. Many of them remained in the service of the squatters for years after their service expired and in some cases they took up land for themselves. They certainly fitted a gap which sadly needing bridging at the time. From this time out, things went better so far as labour was concerned for the two shiploads acted as advertisements and others were only too glad to emigrate." After separation, one of the priorities of the new government was to populate Queensland quickly and efficiently and once again they turned to the Germans who were much admired for their diligence and reliability. Queensland wanted the small farmer and the artisan, the very people who at that time were being dispossessed in Germany. Agents were sent there to actively recruit immigrants in the areas most vulnerable to suggestions of a better life in a new land. Inducements were offered but not all promises made were honoured. Advertisements were placed in newspapers, such as this one from the Uckermarkischer Journal: "Sought for Australia - volunteers for a free passage with no on-board duties. Both whole families and single men from either the industrial or agricultural sector are eligible including farm hands, labourers and shepherds. Further details can be obtained from Dieseldorff & Co., Hamburg." This same Dieseldorff & Co. distributed in northern Germany a brochure which began as follows: "German emigrants have settled in the Colony of Queensland for a number of years now and are soon successful in this favoured land through their diligence and skill. They become wealthy and look forward to a carefree future". This brochure continued: "Many people would have gone to the colony and settled there if the enormous cost of the long journey had not hindered them". These following inducements were then offered: 1. a free passage to families with not more than two children under 12 years. The number of children over 12 years was unconditional. 2. a free passage for single men under 49 years of age. 3. the promise of Land Order which entitled each adult i.e. all persons over 12 years of age to land on arrival. The conditions applying to this offer were as follows: 1. They had to be people from the country or small towns who understood agriculture and Stock husbandry, or 2. domestic servants, or 3. artisans, namely wheelwrights, smiths, masons etc. The brochure concluded by saying: "Emigrants have to enter into no other obligations for the promised free passage. They can set up in business on their own or can take employment at the customary high wages". To the people who read these advertisements and brochures, the inducement to emigrate must have been almost irresistible. In his book on the Berndt family, Friedrich Henklemann says of his uncle, Christian: About that time (about the 1860's) the English government made it known in Germany that if fold emigrated >

Page 4 shoemaker, the tailor, the tinker etc. - found it increasingly hard to compete. People are never loyal. They will buy where the goods are cheapest. About this time there was a series of disastrous seasons with flooding and extreme cold which seriously affected wine grapes, the main cash crop. For most a decade there was virtually no vintage and this placed a terrible strain on an already impoverished population. This lack of farm income meant that the village economy, so dependent on the grapes, was in ruins. There were other factors as well. For hundreds of years, a delicate but stable balance existed, based on the village and the surrounding farm. Then for reasons not fully understood even to this day, the population of Germany began to increase - slowly at first, and then to the point where it could be described as a population explosion. Infant mortality dropped, families were larger and more people were living into old age. Perhaps it had something to do with better education or better health care. The farms of the south and west of Germany were traditionally passed down from generation to generation to a surviving son, and in the case where more than one son survived, the farm was subdivided. With the rise in population, and with more sons surviving, these already small farms were being subdivided to the point where little more than a subsistence living could be expected from them. Thus the economy in this part of the country was in ruins, leaving its people with few alternatives. Some shifted to the industrial towns that were springing up on the Rhine, but most chose to leave Europe. The part of Germany ease of the Elbe was made up largely of huge estates and here the economic structure was quite different from that in the south and west. Generally, each village was attached to the Rittergut of the same name, for example the Uckermark village of Steglitz which, by the way, gave its name to the district of that name (near Beenleigh) had in 1860, a population of 158. The village itself covered 648 acres of land of which 100 acres were given over to building, 506 acres were ploughed land or fields and 42 acres wee meadows. The Rittergut itself comprised 3320 acres: 6 acres of buildings, 25 acres of gardens, 2990 acres of ploughed land or fields, 198 acres of meadows, 100 acres of pasture. The Gut also owned 4000 acres of woods. Steglitz was first mentioned in 1248 and the church was built in the 13th Century. There were about seven independent small farmers cultivating village land but the bulk of the population were either craftsmen of the usual king or agricultural labourers working at the Rittergut. This included the women and children as well as the men. Theoretically, and often in practice, it was a good system, bolstered and sustained by hundreds of years of custom and usage. The Junkers who owned these estates had a reputation throughout Germany as managers and innovators. However in the late 18th Centuries the so-called agricultural revolution began to have its effect of German life particularly east of the Elbe. Thus the ever innovative Junkers began to mechanise and to take advantage of all those new and improved methods of farming which that era produced. He now no longer needed that vast army of agricultural labourers to do his work for him. As well as this, he was no longer under an obligation to care for those persons who had been the serfs of previous generations. When you add this to the effects of the population explosion, the drop in infant mortality and the increase in the sizes of families, it is not hard to see what a devastating result was produced for those people who were lease equipped to cope. However the results of these changes were cushioned to some extend east of the Elbe and didn't have the same immediate effect as they did in the west. This is why the mass emigration didn't begin from this area until the 1860's. Nevertheless the changes were just as dramatic. The population had three alternatives. They could move to the larger towns and cities which were quickly industralising though not fast enough to absorb the newly available workforce, they could stay at home and starve, or they could emigrate. Thus to sum up, whilst religion and politics have played some small role in forcing our emigrants to leave Germany, by and large they came to Queensland for economic reasons. However it is not possible for mass emigration to take place unless there are countries willing to take these emigrants. The sociologists call this the "push Pull" theory of emigration. Put simply this theory means that if a successful mass emigration is to take place, there must be a powerful push from the country of origin and an equally powerful pull from another area or country.

Page 3. generally disrupted the good order of society. To give an example; in Prussia when the teachers first introduced the phonic alphabet, the old Lutheran Separatists derided this as a series of meows and bards, and said that the children would soon be snarling, buzzing, hissing and grunting - all the sounds of the devil. Their preachers advised parents to withdraw their children from the state school system which was acknowledged throughout Europe for its progressiveness, and to refuse to pay the schoolmaster. The authorities decreed that the children must attend the state schools. The children were escorted to the schools by the local militia who kept watch at the door so that the lessons could not be disrupted. However the children would sneak out of the windows and run off to a cottage school being conducted by a local Separatist, usually a cobbler or a weaver. Their leaders preached defiance of the authorities, and of course, when the law was broken, punishment followed. Without entering into judgement of any of the parties, but in view of the facts, you can see why this type of persecution took place. To my knowledge the only group who ever came to Australia because of religious persecution, were the South Australians and their case has been well documented. It is a little known fact that they had originally intended to settle in New South Wales, but the governor wouldn't have them. He stated that as traitors in their own country, they wouldn't make good citizens in New South Wales. It is unfortunate that it has been written many times and indeed I have heard it stated many times that the Bethania Germans came to Queensland because of religious persecution. That is turning history into romance. It makes a lovely story, but it is just not true. These Bethania Germans were from the Uckermark and were Old Lutherans. It is perfectly true that the Old Lutherans of the Uckermark had been persecuted and that many of tem had gone of America because of that persecution, but the authorities had recognized how counterproductive it was to persecute these good industrious and honest but often ignorant people. In 1845, and I repeat 1845, the Old Lutheran Church was given full recognition. The Bethania Germans came here in 1864 and I have calculated that most of them would either have not been born or would have been small children when the persecutions were taking place. There were few German Catholics in Queensland. There was quite a strong group of German Baptists here, but is appears that they settled here not because of persecution at home but because they felt freer to practice their religion here. Therefore the conclusion that we can reach so far is that few if any Germans came to Queensland for political or religious reasons. This then leaves the social and economic reasons for emigration, and of course your economic condition dictated your social condition. Before dealing with these reasons for emigration, let us look at the pattern of emigration from Germany, and there was a very distinct pattern indeed. The first large scale emigration began in the Rhineland, particularly from Wurttemburg in about 1817 and continued unabated for the next 80 years or so. As time went on, the emphasis shifted from the Rhineland states and moved across Germany from the south and the west to the north and the east until finally there was great outpouring of emigrants from Pomerania and East and West Prussia during the 1870's and 1880's. Of these emigrants Australia received about 1%, not a large number from the German point of view but quite significant to us. Most of the emigrants went to North America but fair numbers went to South America and South Africa. Another persistent myth is that South Australia was The German state, when, in fact Queensland received the largest numbers and over a longer period of time. There was a short burst of German immigration into South Australia and likewise similar short burst into New South Wales. German immigration into the other states was sporadic and followed no discernible pattern. Queensland on the other hand received its first immigrants direct from Germany in 1852 and from that year onwards until 1879, emigrant ships sailed regularly from Germany to Queensland,. Thus there was sustained German emigration to Queensland for a period of 27 years. Germans continued to arrive here after 1879 but in very small numbers and on British ships. Now to return to the Rhineland and look at those social and economic conditions which were the catalyst for the great wave of emigration which began in 1817. Obviously it had a great deal to do with the ending of the Napoleonic Wars and the freeing of Europe. Among other things the opening up of the continent meant that Britain, which had been contemptuously referred to by Napoleon as a "nation of shopkeepers", was able to flood the market with cheap manufactured good, so that the traditional village craftsman - the

Page 2. killed or assimilated. This was frontier country and the German word for frontier was Mark. Thus just across the Elbe, we still have today, the ALTMARK (old frontier), a little east the MITTLEMARK (middle frontier) and further east again NEUMARK (new frontier). To the south of them lies the UCKERMARK (frontier around the Ucker River). As these frontiers were consolidated, the aristocratic conquerors divided the countryside into huge estates called GUTS which were parceled out to faithful Knights or Ritters, hence the name for these estates - RITTERGUTER. The Germans continued to move east and to colonise what is now northern Poland. The Slavic name for this area was POMORZE which means "along the sea". The conquers Germanised the name into POMMERN or POMERANIA. In 1945 the Poles changed the name back to POMORZE. When the Teutonic Knights moved into the lands even further east, they encountered what they considered to be a primitive tribe called the BORUSSIANS and it is from the name of this tribe that we get the work PRUSSIA. At the time of our emigrant German ancestors, their way of life had been very much influenced by the ending of the Napoloenic Wars and by the historical division of the old Germany into roughly two parts by the River Elbe. To the south and west of the Elbe lay an area of small, independent farmers and towns and cities, large and small, devoted to trade and commerce. To the east of the Elbe lay an area of large estates which depended for their prosperity on a vast army of landless agricultural labourers. There was little similarity between the two areas. One of the results of the liberalization of thinking in Europe which led to the French Revolution was the abolition of serfdom. Outside of Saxony and Bavaria the land was cultivated by serfs who were not only legally bonded to the soil, but were also subject to all of the old feudal dues. As late as 1750, of the 8000 peasants in the bishopric of Hildesheim, 4500 were serfs. However this state of affairs was so mortised in time, that the common people accepted their lot with little complaint. Poor though their conditions might have been according to our standards, these peasants were living under a primitive type of welfare state. The overlord generally honoured his obligations to protect the peasant in time of misfortune, to look after the widows and orphans, and to maintain peace and order. In Prussia particularly, the Junker landlords distinguished themselves by the competent management of their domains and their serfs. Therefore it doesn't take much imagination to see that with the abolition of serfdom the very people who were least equipped to deal with the new order, were the people who were most disadvantaged. If you take very loosely 1815 as the year when serfdom ceased to exist throughout Germany, and add a generation and a half, i.e. about 45 years, for its effects to be fully felt, then this takes you to the period of peak emigration from Germany. I have used the above illustration of the abolition of serfdom and its effects to reinforce the point that Germans generally emigrated for economic reasons. Historians generally give four reasons for emigration, these being: (a) political (b) religion (c) social (e) economic It is almost impossible to deal with any one of these reasons in isolation from the other three. Each one impinges on the other. Let us take the first i.e. the political reason for emigration. I know of no German who emigrated to Queensland for purely political reasons, and in my study of local Germans I have only ever found the vaguest of references to German politics, mainly in the form of disapproval of Bismarck's methods. With regard to the religious reason for emigration, I'm afraid there has been and there still is, a great deal of inaccurate, romantic twaddle written on this subject. In 19th century Germany the religion or religions within a state were decreed by its prince, and whether one agreed or disagreed with that philosophy was beside the point. Therefore, anybody who chose to practice a religion contrary to the law of the land was considered to be a traitor to the state. However, it was not quite as simple as that, after all, it was Friedrich the Great of Prussia who made the following famous statement in the 18th Century, "All religions must be tolerated and the government must see to it that none of them makes unfair encroachments on any other for in this country every man must get to heaven in his won way". The reality of the matter is that many of those who embraced the religions not sanctioned by the state were quite disruptive in that they deliberately broke the laws of the land, unnecessarily defied the authorities and

Hello Everyone, Don't know if this is what has been referred to but I have a copy of a paper that was printed in the Dec 1991 edition of the GSQ mag "Generation" and have been transferring it to Microsoft Word. I will post it to the list page by page to avoid problems of file size or alternatively when finished I can e-mail it to the list as an attachment in MS Word format. What would people prefer? Regards, Chris Sichter Page 1. GERMAN MIGRATION: WHY, WHERE AND SOURCES Paper presented at the 13th Annual Convention by LES MORELAND To understand the immigration of Germans into Australia and into Queensland in particular, one must step back in time and look for answers not only in our own country but also in Europe itself. And in stepping back in time, one is obliged to look further than the 19th Century, the period of greatest expansion within Australia. How far back should we go? A turning point in recent European history was the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars. The French Revolution didn’t so much change Germany and Europe as act as a catalyst for those changes which had been incubating for some generations. To speak of Germany in the 18th Century is misleading. There were Germans who agreed only in language, music and art, but no Germany as such. The German-speaking area of Europe was divided into 396 practically independent states each with its won sovereign prince, its own court, policies, army, coinage, religion and dress - all in various stages of development. Sixty-three of the principalities including Cologne, Hildesheim, Maniz, Trier, Speyer and Wurzburg were ruled by archbishops, bishops or abbots. Fifty-one cities, chiefly Hamburg, Bremen, Magdebury, Augsbury, Nuremburg, Ulm, and Frankfurt on the Main were "free", that is they were loosely subject like princes to the Holy Roman Empire, an institution that was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire. In 1748 The British philosopher Hume described Germany as a fine place full of industrious people. Were it united it would be the greatest power on earth. Germany after Napoleon was a very different place. The Holy Roman Empire has been abolished in 1806 and the 396 principalities, duchies etc. has been reduced to 39, the largest of which were Austria, Bavaria and Prussia. They had formed themselves into a loose confederation, borders were opened up to trade, and the stage was set for a united Germany. In spite of the increasing unity, Germany was a place of great diversity and fortunes, and we must look at another aspect of life there which effected the emigration of its people. The Germans have always been a nation of emigrants and colonists, although emigrants and colonists with a difference. Their great desire has always been for "living room", a desire which was cleverly and tragically exploited by Hitler. Historically their emigration within Europe has been eastward; "the drive to the east" that we read about so much in history. Before it became possible for them to leave Europe, the Germans established flourishing colonies in Russia, the Baltic lands, and along the Danube in what is not Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Rumania. What is now Jugoslavia has had large ethnic German communities for over 300 years. These Germans originally reached Jugoslavia by floating down the Danube on rafts. I have said that Germans were emigrants and colonists with a difference and by that I mean that once they had attained their goal of finding "living room", they were content to devote themselves to their professions, trades or to agriculture. To use a dreadful modern yuppie phrase, they were never "upwardly mobile". Because of that, they were often misjudged and misunderstood. Oliver Goldsmith said of them, Let the Germans have their due, if they are dull, no nation alive assumes a more laudable solemnity or better understands the decorum of stupidity. For the purpose of making this paper clearer and giving you a better understanding of the emigration of its people, it is convenient to divide the Germany of 1000 years ago into two parts using the River Elbe as a boundary. The original German tribes, held to be five in number, the Franconians, the Lothringens, the Swabians, the Saxons and the Bavarians were confined to the west and the south of the Elbe. To the east of the Elbe were the Slavs. Almost 1000 years ago the Germans crossed the Elbe and given their great drive to the east in search of living room. The course of their conquest can still be seen on a map of modern Europe. Brandenburg, originally Brennibor of the Slavs, was captured bit by bit and the native population either

Hi Carol Does this Frederick have a family running through to 1895? I have two Fredericks - one MILLER and another MÜLLER - the first has a family of 11 within the Privacy time frame, and the second is supposed to have died as a child. I can share the first with you off-list if he is in your family. Bev ----- Original Message ----- From: "carol pratt" <carolp@iprimus.com.au> To: <AUS-QLD-SE-Germans-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 8:58 PM Subject: german ancestors > Hi there ...looks like you have some German interests coming into Qld...I > have one I am trying to find and not too sure where or how to get > started.......are there shipping lists to check for Germans into Qld....Mine > was a Frederick MILLER on his marriage cert in 1865 (Qld) to Ann > Daniels....I guess he may have been a Frederick MULLER I know his parents > names any ideas? I wondered about 'naturalisation papers" > > would be grateful for any pointers > > cheers > > Carol > Melbourne

Hi David I've checked most of my 'names' and we seem to run beside one another with TIMM, REINKE and a couple of others. Are you also interested in MÜTZELBERG? I won't try to help you with REINKE, because I know Cathy will help there. Talk to me off line if you care to! Bev ----- Original Message ----- From: "David & Raelene Haines" <dehaines@mira.net> To: <AUS-QLD-SE-Germans-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:36 PM Subject: SETCH from Marburg/Laidley (Associated German Names REINKE, ZAHL KURZ and TIMM) > Hello All > > I wondered if anyone might be researching or have any information in respect > of this family who I believe resided in the Marburg and Laidley areas. > > I have quite a bit of information on the SETCH/HAINES ancestors that I would > be happy to share.

Hi Elizabeth You are being inundated! Yes please, I would also like a copy. The "Wes" is obviously a typo - there can be only one Moreland in SEQ with that sort of knowledge! (bg) Can I help you type up something that could be sent to the List? Just ask! Telephone (07) 5446 6465 (don't know if you're in Qld) and Fax is the same, but I don't turn that on unless expecting something. I will accept an attachment from you if you can scan the material kerlindavidbev@ozemail.com.au As I said, just ask. I'll be more than happy to help. Cheers Bev ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth" <aliens@bigpond.net.au> To: <AUS-QLD-SE-Germans-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 5:11 PM Subject: History of Uckermark > Dear List, > > I have a copy of German Migration Why, Where & Sources, a paper presented > at the 13th Annual Convention by Wes Morland. I am not sure if this is the > publication you require. It was reprinted in Generation Vol 14 No 2 > December 1991 the Journal of the Genealogical Society of Queensland.

To the list and list manager I sure opened a can of worms with this one; there is obviously a need for this sort of background information for us researchers out there. I hope someone is able to assist us all. Regards Margaret Szalay (SCHMIDT) ==== AUS-QLD-SE-Germans Mailing List ==== A List for the research of the descendants of the Germans who migrated to South East Queensland, Australia. ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237