Good afternoon Ron, and to Warren too, When you say the Marjorams "roamed around Suffolk" like gypsies, I find that an interesting remark, and I have heard it before on numerous occasions, but the family of the convicts, father Robert and son William, who ended up coming here, had been living in Ufford/ Bredfield for several generations, from looking at old birth and death records. Going back in time though, most ag.labs. would have "roamed around" looking for work wherever they could get it, a bit like Gypsies, unless they were "indentured" to the landowner. There is a tale that says people with the names of "herbs" are Gypsies. A few weeks ago, I went through some very old notes trying to tie other Marjoram families into my line, over a number of generations, all near Bredfield. I think I learned on one of my trips to Bredfield that the village "Pettistree" is named after "St. Peter's tree" - maybe some beautiful oak or such like in the grounds of a St. Peter's Church. Here are snippets of info I have accumulated. The earliest record I have is of Robert Marjoram who died in 1719 in Pettistree and his wife Ann who died in Pettistree in April 1711. These are their children all bapt. Pettistree - Robert b. 1673 m. Elizabeth Cobham b. 9.10.1698, no dates of death; William b. 1675; Ann b. 1678; Edmund b. 1681 m. Sarah West 1708, no dates of marriage or death; Thomas b. 1682 d. 1683; Mary b. 1684 (n.f.i,) Edmund Marjuram (note spelling) son of another Robert Marjoram b. 1681, and Ann (n.f.i.) married 16 Nov. 1708 Pettistree, and died May 1731. Edmund's wife was Sarah West, b. c.1685 Wickham, died August 1732 Pettistree. The children were Edmund b.1709 died 1709; Ann b. 1712 Pettistree d. Pettistree 1730; Edmund b. 1715; Sarah b. 1718; William 1718; John b. 1720 Pettistree, died 1753 Pettistree. *Jeremiah Marjoram* b. 9 March 1775 who came from Pettistree, a son of John Margerum and Susan Cullum, married Elizabeth Row on 9 March 1775 - my friend Ann, who lives in Bredfield in Suffolk, almost next door to where the Marjorams lived, sent the following, and she just looked it up in the Church Records for me. Ann is one of the "bell ringers" at Bredfield Church. When we were celebrating our 200 years here, Ann and another lady Joan (ex school teacher, from the area, and who now, almost in her 90s, has just bought a "motor bike for geriatrics") decided to research the convict records to see if any came from Suffolk, and guess who they found. Since then, the knowledge on the Marjorams has been slightly enlarged! And so has my list of friends. When I travelled to the UK way back in 1961 Suffolk was one of my favourite counties in England, long before I became involved with family history, and that was long before the inter-net. Recently I stayed with Ann, who took me all around the Marjoram haunts. The following are the children from the above marriage of Jeremiah and Elizabeth Row in Boulge in Suffolk, and all were baptised in Bredfield in Suffolk:- Jerry b. 1775, John b. 1778 who married Sarah Oxborrow on 18/4/1800; Susan 1779; George 1781 who married an Elizabeth - no surname; Sarah 1782; Margaret b 1784 who might have married a "Brown"; Robert b. 1785, who married Frances Crow in 1814 in Ufford (*my/our line*); Christian b.9/3/1787; James b. 28/1/1791; Jeremiah b. 4/6/1794. Here's a local one - Robert Marjoram married ca 1887 Lithgow, East Macquarie to Elizabeth Ainsworth. I know William Marjoram's brother Robert came out here with his wife Lydia nee Moss, and they had four children, the third of whom was Robert and I have that Lydia died and her husband Robert re-married . I suspect that Robert Marjoram Snr. (convict) in the long years of his sentence, around the Bathurst/Lithgow area, somehow managed to puddle for gold, as on his release from a 14 year sentence he went back to Suffolk, was there for the marriage of a couple of his children, and paid the fares for Robert jnr. and and his bride Lydia(nee Moss) to come to Australia, and then for Robert snr. and his wife Frances to came back here /_1st Class_ /on the ship they travelled on . Robert Snr.'s son, the convict William Marjoram, had a daughter Frances, and she was my father's paternal grandmother, married to John Hogan, the son of my*Irish convict Denis Hogan* and his wife Margaret Carey also from Ireland - an immigrant connection - and Frances was loved very much by my Dad, Wilfred John Hogan, aka "Jack", and his two sisters, Evelyn Mary Hogan, and Frances Alma Hogan. Frances Marjoram/Hogan was the local midwife where they lived for a long time, somewhere near Forest Reefs south of Bathurst etc.. When John Hogan died, Frances came and lived with her son James and his wife, my grandmother, Adeline nee Newstead. Frances Marjoram, aged 64, died in 1911 in Sydney - my father and his two sisters remembered her with great love. I wish my convict Denis Hogan from Tipperary was as well documented as the Marjorams - I have no idea of his parents' names, nor do I know where in Tipperary they came. I have been on the Tipperary List on the internet for many years, and the "owner" of that list was also connected to Denis Hogan, and she lives there, and she can't even find any records of what Denis got up to - the best we can work out, is wherever he was in Tipperary, he was in the "wrong place at the wrong time", and the records could have been destroyed in the uprisings in the early 20th centuary. Denis's two elder sons James and John married and both had large families - John married Frances Marjoram, William the convict's daughter - Frances was my father's grandmother. James married Mary Jackson, and they seem to have been around Rylstone for most of the time, but I haven't traced that line, fully. If any one has information on James and Mary Hogan, I would be pleased to hear from them as I think one of their sons, Patrick, married a Mary Ann Austin in 1883. I have Austen/Austin relatives. Enough for one day, Liz. . On 3/08/2013 12:40 PM, Ron Norton wrote: > Hi Liz, > Goodness me, there are some interesting names in the wonderful > information you sent yesterday. > Yes, the Coates story is a very interesting one. It actually forms a > big part of one of my three family history books. The attitude towards > our convict ancestry seemed to change around the time of > AustraliaâEUR^(TM)s bicentenary celebrations when people began to > think more about our history. Today, being descended from a convict is > almost a status symbol. My wife says she always knew when I had found > another convict in my family history because of my exclamations of > joy. You are right; the older members of our families didnâEUR^(TM)t > want to talk about their past, especially if there was a convict in > the cupboard. And itâEUR^(TM)s such a shame that they didnâEUR^(TM)t > because they would have had some wonderful stories to tell. Your > son-in-law is lucky. Bet you had some fun helping him with his family > history? > IâEUR^(TM)ve been following your interests in the Hogans. Seems you > and Laraine Dillon have some connections there. No Hogans in my family > IâEUR^(TM)m afraid, although I have strong connections with Tipperary. > Hogan in Tipperary seems to be a little like Smith in Australia. Smith > was one of my bugbears. My grandmotherâEUR^(TM)s father was William > John Smith ... can you imagine how many William/John Smiths I had to > research before I found the right one? > My grandmother brings me to one of the interesting names you > mentioned. She married Samuel *Moss* whose family I traced back to > Cheshire in the UK. Wonder if there might have been any connection > with your Lydia Moss? And therein is another interesting name âEUR" > *Crowe*. Two daughters of my greatgrandfather, convict John Norton, > married Crowe brothers at Murringo, between Boorowa and Young, so I > have a strong connection with the Crowe family, many of whom still > live around the Young, Grenfell and Cowra districts. > Ah, the Gypsy connection. There was a belief in my motherâEUR^(TM)s > family (she was a Moss) that there was a Gypsy connection but I think > that belief was based on the name Marjoram. Yes, I have heard, from > several sources, that Gypsies were supposed to have taken the names of > herbs as their family names. The Marjoram family was known to have > roamed around Suffolk and adhered to some of the Gypsy traditions. But > MaryâEUR^(TM)s case was taken to The World Travellers organisation > some years ago and there was no conclusive evidence to support the > Gypsy claims. However, Mary Anne was something of a mystery. She was > married to Will Coates but she died as Mary Marjoram and was buried > under that name at the old Castlereagh Cemetery. > Interesting too that your Mary Ann Marjoram married John Broom. Any > connection with the John Broom who sailed with Matthew Flinders on his > circumnavigation of Australia? > IâEUR^(TM)m sure there must be some connection between your Marjorams > and mine but the link remains very elusive. ItâEUR^(TM)s not as though > itâEUR^(TM)s a common name. Maybe one day the link will become obvious. > Thanks for all your info. As you can see, it was most absorbing. > Best wishes. > Ron N > *From:* Elizabeth Walker <mailto:lizrose@tpg.com.au> > *Sent:* Friday, August 02, 2013 4:22 PM > *To:* Ron Norton <mailto:ronn007@optusnet.com.au> ; Warren Diggins > <mailto:wdiggins@aol.com> > *Subject:* Re ]Coates, Marjoram, Hogan, b. 1842, son of Denis Hogan & > Margaret Carey. > Hello Ron, > > Going back many years, I had a friend who married into the Coates > family in the early 1960s. Her mother was horrified that her > daughter was marrying someone descended from convicts! Unhappily, > just a few years later, the daughter was diagnosed with breast cancer, > and died within some very few weeks from the diagnosis, leaving two > young children, who would be in their late 40s by now. What a shame > she did not hear the end of the Coates story. > > I can remember my mother whispering to me that Dad had convicts - she > was insistent that I did not tell any one. Eventually it turned out > Dad had 3 but by that time, having a convict had become a bit trendy, > and by this time my father had passed away - what a shame, he could > have told me so much! My mother was part Welsh (and the family all > sang), part English, part French (Normandy), part Chanel Is. - > Alderney. My son-in-law has 12 convicts including 1st fleeters > > Besides the convict Marjorams, father Robert and son William from > Bredfield in Suffolk, I descend from Denis Hogan a convict from > somewhere in Tipperary, n.f.i. - married in Sydney to Margaret > Carey. Denis seems to have been "in the wrong place at the wrong > time", and for that he got a 7 year trip to Australia and he became a > shoemaker. I didn't know any of this when my father was alive, but I > do remember a heavy metal creation for putting shoes on, so that they > could be re-soled or re-heeled, and I wonder now, if it might have > come down from Denis - did they have such things in the early > colony! Margaret Carey came here under a scheme to bring more women > to Australia, and all I know about her early life is that I*think *she > also was Irish. > > Margaret and Denis Hogan had four children, and the second one, John > Hogan, married Frances Marjoram, the daughter of William Marjoram, and > William's Scottish wife, Catherine Kennedy, from Ayrshire. Catherine > died in Brisbane when the children Frances and Robert, were very > young, and they were put into care, and did not meet again until they > were well into adulthood. Robert was b. 1849 Ipswich, married 1873 > to Mary Ann Holmes, and died 1906 in Sydney > > I also have a Mary Ann Marjoram, b. 1830, the sister of William and > daughter of Robert Marjoram snr. (my convicts) - this Mary Ann > married John Broom, and to my knowledge, remained in Suffolk. > Another one is John Marjoram b. 1720 Pettistree, married to Susan > Cullum 1745 in Pettistree, and died 1753, same place. John's father > was Edmund Marjoram and his mother was Sarah West. John and Susan > seem to have had Susan, John, Elizabeth, and Jeremiah b. ca 1752/3. > The father of Robert Marjoram (convict), was also named Jeremiah, and > I think the one I have just mentioned could well be he. > > Another Robert Marjoram b.? m. ?, died 1719 Pettistree - married Ann > (no surname) who died 1711 Pettistree. They had the following > children all in Pettistree - Robert b.1673-? married 1698 to Elizabeth > Cobham; William b. 1675; Ann 1678; Edmund b. 1681 Pettistree m. > 16.11.1708 Pettistree, to Sarah West, died ?; Thomas b. 1682, died > May 1683 Pettistree; Mary b. 1684. > > Another - Edmund Marjoram b,1681, d. May 1731 Pettistree, father > Robert Marjoram, mother Ann. Married Sarah West b. c 1685 Wickham, > Suffolk > > Marjoram Robert b. 1825 Bredfield Suffolk, son of Robert Marjoram > (convict) and his wife Frances nee Crowe, married Lydia Moss (dau. of > William and Sarah Moss) in Bredfield in 1852, and they set off for > Australia not long after the wedding. I suspect Robert, his father, > paid the fares for the two of them. Robert jnr. and Lydia had four > children Sarah 1855 - 1865 Bathurst; Elizabeth 1857-1938 Newtown NSW > married Joseph Willett 1875; Robert 1859 Bathurst - 1930 Lithgow; > William 1861 - 1865. Lydia Marjoram died in 1863 in Bathurst, and > Robert jnr. re-married in 1867 to Elizabeth Blackman, and I don't > think this couple had any children. > > I also have been told that the Marjorams were Gypsies. Considering > that Robert Snr. married his wife Frances Crowe in the very beautiful > church in Ufford, and their children were baptised and/or married in > the Bredfield Church, it is unlikely they were Gypsies at that time, > but their family may have been some centuries before. From what I > have gleaned, Gypsies were supposed to have taken the names of herbs > as their family names - have you heard of this? > > All for now, > > Liz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/08/2013 10:36 PM, Ron Norton wrote: >> Hello Liz, >> We have touched base in the past and compared notes about our >> Marjoram connections. Both came from Suffolk, UK. And they found >> their way to the Bathurst area but I think we were unable to confirm >> any family connections. >> My Marjoram is Mary Ann, convict, born Knodishall Suffolk 15 May >> 1796; died and buried Castlereagh (near Windsor) March 1838. Mary >> Annââ,¬â"¢s parents were Thomas Marjoram, born Suffolk 1761, and >> Elizabeth Watling, born England (not sure where) in 1773. There was a >> suggestion that Mary Ann had a Gypsy background but this seems to >> have been discounted. >> Mary Ann married John William (Will) Coates, convict, 3 January 1820 >> at Parramatta. John William was born in Durham England 1791 and died >> Woodstock, near Bathurst, 8 Dec 1847. They were my maternal >> grandmotherââ,¬â"¢s greatgrandparents. >> After their marriage, Mary Ann and Will Coates moved to Bathurst >> where Will became the areaââ,¬â"¢s first school principal. They had >> land at Kings Plains just outside Bathurst and raised a big family. >> I know nothing about Mary Ann Marjoramââ,¬â"¢s English background or >> family so if you have any info on them it would be most welcome. >> Thanks for making contact again. >> Ron Norton. >> *From:* Elizabeth Walker <mailto:lizrose@tpg.com.au> >> *Sent:* Thursday, August 01, 2013 6:27 PM >> *To:* Ron Norton <mailto:ronn007@optusnet.com.au> >> *Subject:* Fwd: Re: [PJ] James Hogan, b. 1842, son of Denis Hogan & >> Margaret Carey. >> Good evening Ron, >> >> Lariane Dillon has just told me that you have connections to the >> Marjorams - father Robert, and son William, convicts from Bredfield >> in Suffolk. They are a part of my late father Wilfred John (known >> as Jack) Hogan's paternal line. William Marjoram's daughter >> Frances Marjoram married John Hogan (son of the Irish convict Denis >> Hogan from Tipperary, and his non-convict wife Margaret nee Carey >> also from Ireland) and Frances Hogan was my father's grandmother. >> Frances and John Hogan had 12 children of whom I am aware, and their >> son James, b. "Lumpy Swamp" in the Carcoar vicinity in 1872 , was my >> paternal grandfather Jim. He died when I was about 3 years old, in >> the early war years, but I can still remember him quite vividly - he >> used to bring me a chocolate Freddo Frog in colourful wrapping. >> >> I have quite a lot on the Marjorams, and have been to their village >> in Suffolk a few times in the past umpteen years - a beautiful part >> of the world. I am happy to try and answer questions, if you have any. >> >> Happy hunting, >> >> Liz Walker. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Re: [PJ] James Hogan, b. 1842, son of Denis Hogan and >> Margaret Carey. >> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 16:01:25 +1000 >> From: Laraine Dillon mailto:lmcd440@hotmail.com >> Reply-To: Laraine Dillon mailto:lmcd440@hotmail.com >> To: mailto:lizrose@tpg.com.au >> >> >> >> Hi Liz , >> no problem, hang on to that info it may come in handy one day. Could he have >> had another name other than Dennis.. >> I note the Marjoram line at Castlereagh.. Ron Norton on list is also >> related to me through his line I know he has Marjoram in his line. >> Laraine >> >> -----O >