Terry, It was a crime until rather recently. Most unfair on the poor girls who had to find some way to make a living. Always seemed to be the providers on the wrong side of the law while the users went free. Kay, don't be too judgemental on your ancestor. Just because she died of a horrendous sexually transmitted disease it does not follow that she was a prostitute. Her husband could have brought the disease home, for example. Best regards, John PS. I am not a feminist. However, I do think the law was in error on this issue.

Hi Rod I am not certain he did arrive. He is listed on the Indent of the "Ganges" but that list was made up in the UK and not everyone listed actually was transported on that particular transport. I cannot find him listed in any Muster or in any of the John Cobley books. Regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of RODNEY MCDONALD Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:02 PM To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: [PJ] Thomas Arnold arrived 1797 'Ganges' Hi List Do any of you very learned persons of the list any knowledge of Thomas Arnold arrived 1797 'Ganges' I have been thru the archives and find he has not been mentioned. I would be interested in his movements, marriage etcc. after his arrival in 1797. Many thanks Regards Rod McDonald

Hi List Do any of you very learned persons of the list any knowledge of Thomas Arnold arrived 1797 'Ganges' I have been thru the archives and find he has not been mentioned. I would be interested in his movements, marriage etcc. after his arrival in 1797. Many thanks Regards Rod McDonald Convict ancestors: Robert Forrester 'Scarborough' 1st Fleet 1789, Isabella Jane Ramsay ('MaryAnn' 3rd Fleet), Matthew Lock 'Surprise 1790', Euphram Graham 'Pitt 1792', Thomas Hodgetts 'Scarborough 2nd Fleet, Charles Homer Martin 'Charles Stuart 1818', James Stephenson (Midas2 1827) Non-convict pioneer family interest; Peter McLaren, wife Robina McDiarmid with family aboard 'Hero' from Leith Scotland 1839

Hello list I am trying to track down details of the crime that led to the transportation of Owen McMahon on the "Rolla". Owen figures in the early pages of the Sydney Gazette until he disappeared around 1810, sailing on the "Star", but this only covers his colonial misdeeds.. All that I have been able to find out is that he was sentenced to 7 years transportation at the 1802 Westmeath Assizes. NSW published material suggests he was transported for either stealing a bag of potatos, or for being a rebel. I know that the "Rolla" carried Irish convicts and that some, not all, were rebels. Does anyone have any suggestions about solving the mystery. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Michael McMahon

Hi Terry, > Vagrancy often meant "prostitution". One of my ancestors was sent out for vagrancy. She died later from Syphillus. Regards Kay > > > I was also intrigued and somewhat appalled that a number of the > ladies had > been sentenced to seven years for "Vagrancy", a crime that seems so > incredibly petty to warrant such a harsh sentence. > > Terry > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT- > JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Ken I am not aware of any set standard definition. The main thing is that when you say or record that someone os x generation descended in Australia, that is supported by a definition. One could say xx generation born in Australia. I tend to like adding the person who arrived as they generally lived and died here. cheers Grahame On 04/02/2009, at 9:36 AM, Ken Mero wrote: > Good morning Lesley and List. I find that computing lines of > descendents can open a can of worms.(and sometimes heated > arguments) Some members count the original First Fleeter as > generation one, others the first line from the original as one. > (does that make sense?) I'm not an expert but maybe one of our > Listers may be able to settle the matter once and for > all.Personally, I have Frederick Meredith who married a convict (or > two) then his son Frederick, his son John, his son Henry, his son > Lindsay, his son William, his son Ken, his daughter Debra, her > daughter Melanie, her son Tyson. So I would claim 9 generations. > Thanks for the opportunity to to the thinking cap on. regards Ken > at King Creek. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT- > JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Terry I think you will find that it means stealing wearing apparel. regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Terry Flowers Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 6:53 PM To: AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS@rootsweb.com Subject: [PJ] Unknown Crime Hi All. I have come across a crime that seems to have warranted a sentence of seven years transportation. "FELONY WEARING APPAREL" I came across this when checking Musters for the "John Bull" 1821 that transported eighty mostly Irish ladies. Does anyone know exactly what this crime is? I also noted that there was a marked difference in ages of some of the ladies between the Indent and the Muster. Has anyone on the list come across this anomaly? Can anyone offer a suggestion as to why this is so? I was also intrigued and somewhat appalled that a number of the ladies had been sentenced to seven years for "Vagrancy", a crime that seems so incredibly petty to warrant such a harsh sentence. Terry

Grahame, "For example, many ships from Ireland do not have indents." That's news to me Grahame as I have transcribed them all. I would be interested to hear about those 'many' Indents that you think are not available. Regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Grahame & Rosslyn Thom Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 5:10 PM To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PJ] Crimes and Trials. Hi Jenni You may be pushing up hill to find trial details. Irish convicts, especially in the early years of transportation were considered to be at the bottom of the pack. For example, many ships from Ireland do not have indents. Here is one site that may be useful http://members.pcug.org.au/~ppmay/convicts.htm cheers Grahame

Hi All. I have come across a crime that seems to have warranted a sentence of seven years transportation. "FELONY WEARING APPAREL" I came across this when checking Musters for the "John Bull" 1821 that transported eighty mostly Irish ladies. Does anyone know exactly what this crime is? I also noted that there was a marked difference in ages of some of the ladies between the Indent and the Muster. Has anyone on the list come across this anomaly? Can anyone offer a suggestion as to why this is so? I was also intrigued and somewhat appalled that a number of the ladies had been sentenced to seven years for "Vagrancy", a crime that seems so incredibly petty to warrant such a harsh sentence. Terry

Hi Jenni You may be pushing up hill to find trial details. Irish convicts, especially in the early years of transportation were considered to be at the bottom of the pack. For example, many ships from Ireland do not have indents. Here is one site that may be useful http://members.pcug.org.au/~ppmay/convicts.htm cheers Grahame On 04/02/2009, at 12:30 PM, Jenni Kay wrote: > Hi all, > > Have found a James O'Neill who arrived in PJ 1822 on the "Countess > of Harcourt" sentenced to 7 years, trial at Dublin City 1821, aged > 19 years. From here, where do I find information on the crime he > committed, and trial details? > > Thank you, > Jenni > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT- > JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The reason why, in this instance, you found two Certificates of Freedom is because they are different men,. One arrived on the "Countess of Harcourt" in 1822 and the other on the "Countess of Harcourt" that arrived in 1827. Both of these men received a 7 year sentence. The type of detail the Colonial Sec films will provide will be similar to that of one I have here. The Mangles (2) arrived in 1822 from Cork. Parramatta: For General Distribution Michael Fox, John Griffin, Matthew Kenny, Thomas Mullaghan, Daniel Doody, Charles Young, Dennis Murphy, Michael Connor, John Purtell, Michael McMahon, John Burke, Robert Cussan, William Dunworth, James Mc Donough, John Doolan, Patrick McCormack. John Molloy, Thomas Shanihan, William Ryan, John Eaton Airds: For General Distribution Timothy, Quin, Patrick Mahony, Maurice Walsh, John Leary, Daniel Sullivan, Michael Curtin, James Leahy, Lawrence Ryan, William Hoolahan, William Fox, Michael Neil or Summers, Patrick Hayes, Daniel Doran Windsor: For General Distribution: Philip Purcell, Dennis McCormack, Andrew Hillery, Michael Spearin, John Foley, John Whitaker, James Sheehan, Jeremiah Hurley, Patrick Reen, John O'Connell, John Monaghan, John Donovan, Richard Griggin, John Sullivan, Patrick Leonard, Cornelius Leary, Michael Roache, William Stanton, John Bohan, Dennis Toomy, James Goggin, David Donovan, John Ryan, Thomas Heffernan, Thomas Cahill, William O'Neill, John Sullivan, John Hayes, John Collins Bathurst: To be sent to Emu Plains until an opportunity offers of sending them to Bathurst James Dooley, WIlliam Fitzpatrick, James Fitzpatrick, Cornelius Dwyer, Roger Herrernan, Some convicts were sent to private individuals John Granger & John Mahony to John Farrington James Griffin & Michael Walsh to Sergt McDonald, Field of Mars John Ready & Thomas Dea to John Blaxland Esq. William Purtell to William Cordeaux esq at Liverpool Daniel McConville to Edmund Wright at Bringelly Michael Carroll & John Hickey to John Neild at South Creek James Shanahan to Capt King at South Creek Cornelius Buckely & Garret Cotter to John Warby Jeremiah Daley to Edward Taylor James Condon to J Hudson James Fennell & Patrick Fennell to T Wills Edward Markham & Thomas Shaughnesy to James Byrne at Appin James Fitzpatrick to Dennis Bryan at Appin Patrick Corbett & James Donohue to Maurice Whologhan at Appin John Drewe to Thomas Connell at Appin John Connors & Michael Connors to B Jackson at Upper Minto Humphrey Lynch, John Kenny, John Grady, Martin Grady, Patrick Byrne, Dennis Gleeson Snr & Jnr, Dennis Gorman, John Dalton, James Ryan, Michael Coughlin, Thoms Donoghue ALL to William Howe Esq at Upper Minto Thomas Connor and William Nix to J Campbell James Sperin and George Milcahy to Thomas Chaseling at Portland Head William Doolan and Patrick Doolan to Richard Kelly at Portland Head Thomas Foughney to John Brown at Portland Head Matthew Perry & Richard Humphrey to John Bowman at Richmond Regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Jenni Kay Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:23 PM To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: [PJ] Colonial Sec Papers Hi all, Just found some references to a James O'Neill I'm researching in the Colonial Sec. Papers at the NSW State Records, and I am wondering how much info I can find here if I order copies. Each record is $25.00, and James is mentioned in three, and since I have not ordered these before I am wondering if others have found them worthwhile. Here are the references I have found: 1) 1822 Dec 26 "On the list of convicts landed from the Countess of Harcourt and forwarded to Bathurst for distribution". How much more info might I expect to find on this record? 2) Certificate of Freedom: 3 Dec 1828 3) Certificate of Freedom: 11 Feb 1834 Why would there be two Certificate of Freedoms? His original sentence was 7 years and he would have served this by 1829. Since there is a second COF, does this mean he go himself in trouble again? And how much info might I find on these records? Cheers, Jenni

Thank you so much lesley for clearing that up. Cheers, Jenni ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lesley Uebel" <ckennedy@bigpond.net.au> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [PJ] Colonial Sec Papers > > The reason why, in this instance, you found two Certificates of Freedom > is > because they are different men,. One arrived on the "Countess of Harcourt" > in > 1822 and the other on the "Countess of Harcourt" that arrived in 1827. > Both of > these men received a 7 year sentence. > > The type of detail the Colonial Sec films will provide will be similar to > that > of one I have here. The Mangles (2) arrived in 1822 from Cork. > > > Parramatta: For General Distribution > Michael Fox, John Griffin, Matthew Kenny, Thomas Mullaghan, Daniel > Doody, Charles Young, Dennis Murphy, Michael Connor, > John Purtell, Michael McMahon, John Burke, Robert Cussan, William > Dunworth, > James Mc Donough, John Doolan, Patrick McCormack. John Molloy, Thomas > Shanihan, William Ryan, John Eaton > > Airds: For General Distribution > Timothy, Quin, Patrick Mahony, Maurice Walsh, John Leary, Daniel Sullivan, > Michael Curtin, James Leahy, Lawrence Ryan, William Hoolahan, William Fox, > Michael Neil or Summers, Patrick Hayes, Daniel Doran > > Windsor: For General Distribution: > Philip Purcell, Dennis McCormack, Andrew Hillery, Michael Spearin, John > Foley, John Whitaker, James Sheehan, Jeremiah Hurley, Patrick Reen, John > O'Connell, John Monaghan, John Donovan, Richard Griggin, John Sullivan, > Patrick Leonard, Cornelius Leary, Michael Roache, William Stanton, John > Bohan, Dennis Toomy, James Goggin, David Donovan, John Ryan, Thomas > Heffernan, Thomas Cahill, William O'Neill, John Sullivan, John Hayes, John > Collins > > Bathurst: To be sent to Emu Plains until an opportunity offers of sending > them to Bathurst > James Dooley, WIlliam Fitzpatrick, James Fitzpatrick, Cornelius Dwyer, > Roger > Herrernan, > > Some convicts were sent to private individuals > > John Granger & John Mahony to John Farrington > > James Griffin & Michael Walsh to Sergt McDonald, Field of Mars > > John Ready & Thomas Dea to John Blaxland Esq. > > William Purtell to William Cordeaux esq at Liverpool > > Daniel McConville to Edmund Wright at Bringelly > Michael Carroll & John Hickey to John Neild at South Creek > James Shanahan to Capt King at South Creek > > Cornelius Buckely & Garret Cotter to John Warby > Jeremiah Daley to Edward Taylor > James Condon to J Hudson > James Fennell & Patrick Fennell to T Wills > Edward Markham & Thomas Shaughnesy to James Byrne at Appin > James Fitzpatrick to Dennis Bryan at Appin > Patrick Corbett & James Donohue to Maurice Whologhan at Appin > John Drewe to Thomas Connell at Appin > > John Connors & Michael Connors to B Jackson at Upper Minto > > Humphrey Lynch, John Kenny, John Grady, Martin Grady, Patrick Byrne, > Dennis > Gleeson Snr & Jnr, Dennis Gorman, John Dalton, James Ryan, Michael > Coughlin, Thoms Donoghue ALL to William Howe Esq at Upper Minto > > Thomas Connor and William Nix to J Campbell > > James Sperin and George Milcahy to Thomas Chaseling at Portland Head > William Doolan and Patrick Doolan to Richard Kelly at Portland > Head > > Thomas Foughney to John Brown at Portland Head > Matthew Perry & Richard Humphrey to John Bowman at Richmond > > > Regards > > Lesley Uebel > mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au > CLAIM A CONVICT > http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Jenni > Kay > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:23 PM > To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com > Subject: [PJ] Colonial Sec Papers > > > Hi all, > > Just found some references to a James O'Neill I'm researching in the > Colonial > Sec. Papers at the NSW State Records, and I am wondering how much info I > can > find here if I order copies. Each record is $25.00, and James is mentioned > in > three, and since I have not ordered these before I am wondering if others > have > found them worthwhile. Here are the references I have found: > > 1) 1822 Dec 26 "On the list of convicts landed from the Countess of > Harcourt and > forwarded to Bathurst for distribution". > How much more info might I expect to find on this record? > > 2) Certificate of Freedom: 3 Dec 1828 > > 3) Certificate of Freedom: 11 Feb 1834 > Why would there be two Certificate of Freedoms? His original sentence was > 7 > years and he would have served this by 1829. Since there is a second COF, > does > this mean he go himself in trouble again? And how much info might I find > on > these records? > > Cheers, > Jenni > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi all, Have found a James O'Neill who arrived in PJ 1822 on the "Countess of Harcourt" sentenced to 7 years, trial at Dublin City 1821, aged 19 years. From here, where do I find information on the crime he committed, and trial details? Thank you, Jenni

Hi all, Just found some references to a James O'Neill I'm researching in the Colonial Sec. Papers at the NSW State Records, and I am wondering how much info I can find here if I order copies. Each record is $25.00, and James is mentioned in three, and since I have not ordered these before I am wondering if others have found them worthwhile. Here are the references I have found: 1) 1822 Dec 26 "On the list of convicts landed from the Countess of Harcourt and forwarded to Bathurst for distribution". How much more info might I expect to find on this record? 2) Certificate of Freedom: 3 Dec 1828 3) Certificate of Freedom: 11 Feb 1834 Why would there be two Certificate of Freedoms? His original sentence was 7 years and he would have served this by 1829. Since there is a second COF, does this mean he go himself in trouble again? And how much info might I find on these records? Cheers, Jenni

Good morning Lesley and List. I find that computing lines of descendents can open a can of worms.(and sometimes heated arguments) Some members count the original First Fleeter as generation one, others the first line from the original as one. (does that make sense?) I'm not an expert but maybe one of our Listers may be able to settle the matter once and for all.Personally, I have Frederick Meredith who married a convict (or two) then his son Frederick, his son John, his son Henry, his son Lindsay, his son William, his son Ken, his daughter Debra, her daughter Melanie, her son Tyson. So I would claim 9 generations. Thanks for the opportunity to to the thinking cap on. regards Ken at King Creek.

Hi Listers, My Grandchildren are 9th Generation from our First Fleeters William Douglas (Alexander) and Mary Groves (Prince of Wales). We descend from the eldest child for several generations, which helps to gather an extra generation here and there. Our First Fleeters' daughter Elizabeth was only 16 when she married. Regards Norma McLean normabmc@bigpond.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "jude" <judeoshea@optushome.com.au> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:48 AM Subject: Re: [PJ] Generations from First Fleeters > Hi All, > My husband and I both have direct ancestors who were First Fleeters. > On both sides there 8 generations of descendants who were born here. > That is roughly 25yrs for each generation. > Judith >

Hi All, My husband and I both have direct ancestors who were First Fleeters. On both sides there 8 generations of descendants who were born here. That is roughly 25yrs for each generation. Judith

Thomas Lesson and Isaac lived opposite each other in Wilberforce. It was sometime between 1813 and 1816 that Ann moved over the road to Isaac, in 1816 Nancy born 23 April, baptized November 1816 was baptized surname Lisson father Isaac Gorrick and mother Nancy Lisson In 1813 children were baptized as the children of Thomas and Ann Lisson No I am not related; I just collected a lot of baptismal records in the 1980s, pre BDMs Collected Gorrick and Lisson as Izetta Lisson married Joseph Brown. Regards Elizabeth Roberts -----Original Message----- From: South Coast Promotions [mailto:office@scpromotions.com.au] Sent: Monday, 2 February 2009 12:20 AM To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PJ] Isaac Gorrick Ann BRADWELL, BRADLEY - BRIDEWELL, Convict Experiment 1804. Ann was later with Isaac GORRICK Married 27 Aug 1804 St Johns Parramatta LEESON, Thomas - LISSON Convict Royal Admiral 1792 Many of the Children of Ann and Thomas Lesson went by the name of GORRICK and then changed back over to LEESON in later generations Ann died Feb 1860 Wilberforce Cathy Dunn -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of I Baig Sent: Sunday, 1 February 2009 11:21 PM To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: [PJ] Isaac Gorrick Hi, does anyone on the list know anything about the family of origin of Isaac Gorrick/Gorwick, particularly if he may have been of French descent? He was tried in the Assizes at Exeter, Devon on 16 March 1789 and sentenced to 7 years transportation. He sailed on the Atlantic, arriving in Sydney on the 20th August 1791. He married Rebecca Plummer and then lived with Ann Lisson, nee Bradwell. They ran an Inn called the Safe Retreat at Wilberforce. Regards, Natalie ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Elizabeth, I think you get the prize for the longest generations or did James Wright marry very late in life, I thought our average generation of 30 years was long but my grandsons 3 1/2 and due next week, one to each of my children will be 7th Generation from our first fleeter, Benjamin Cusley , Marine Regards Elizabeth Roberts -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth & Paul Kangro [mailto:pkangro@bigpond.net.au] Sent: Monday, 2 February 2009 12:09 PM To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PJ] FW: re Generations from First Fleeters Hi all my 5 year old son is only 6th generation from our FF ancestor James Wright (Scarborough) cheers Elizabeth ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross McDougal" <rossmcdougal@optusnet.com.au> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [PJ] FW: re Generations from First Fleeters > Hi Cherilyn > Our 2 year old grandson is a 10th generation from my husbands 1st convict > Catherine Owens who came out in 1794 on "Surprise" but only a 8th > generation > from my 1st fleet convicts James Squire, Edward Goodin, Nathaniel Lucas > and > Olivia Gascoigne. > > Cheers Linda >>From hot western Sydney > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cherilyn Bonney" <clbonney@optusnet.com.au> > To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 10:19 PM > Subject: [PJ] FW: re Generations from First Fleeters > > >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > to our First Fleeters and also to our new great >> grandson (five months) who >> is the latest generation. I said he was the ninth generation born here >> but >> before I fell asleep I was trying to count the generations without much >> success. Went straight to the computer next morning hoping it wasn't >> eight >> generations and found to my surprise that Jordan is the tenth generation >> born here! Everyone was very pleased. Are there any eleven generations >> from >> First Fleeters out there? > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi all I think that Rootsweb is again having problems with the delivery of messages. All I can suggest is that you check the Archives at: http://tinyurl.com/anuwdo Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au