Hi Ron These records are available on microfilm. Regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html

Thank you Annette. I have applied for a reader's card. Canberra is 'almost' in NSW!! Ron N . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Annette Cooke" <kacooke@smartchat.net.au> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [PJ] Dublin Trial Records > Hi > > If you live in NSW you might be able to access these papers (ie Dublin > Freemans Journal) on line through the NSW State Library. You will need > to > apply for a readers card. > > Here is the link: http://www2.sl.nsw.gov.au/databases/athome.cfm > > Annette > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lesley Uebel" <ckennedy@bigpond.net.au> > To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 2:13 PM > Subject: Re: [PJ] Dublin Trial Records > > >> >> Hi again Ron >> >> Make sure that you check the "Dublin" Freeman's Journals and not the >> ones >> of >> the same name published in Sydney. I believe that the National Library >> holds >> both on film. >> >> regards >> >> >> Lesley Uebel >> mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au >> CLAIM A CONVICT >> http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1939 - Release Date: 02/06/09 17:28:00

Hi If you live in NSW you might be able to access these papers (ie Dublin Freemans Journal) on line through the NSW State Library. You will need to apply for a readers card. Here is the link: http://www2.sl.nsw.gov.au/databases/athome.cfm Annette ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lesley Uebel" <ckennedy@bigpond.net.au> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [PJ] Dublin Trial Records > > Hi again Ron > > Make sure that you check the "Dublin" Freeman's Journals and not the ones > of > the same name published in Sydney. I believe that the National Library > holds > both on film. > > regards > > > Lesley Uebel > mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au > CLAIM A CONVICT > http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi again Ron Make sure that you check the "Dublin" Freeman's Journals and not the ones of the same name published in Sydney. I believe that the National Library holds both on film. regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Ron Norton Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 2:59 PM To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PJ] Dublin Trial Records Thank you Lesley, I have tried National Library records without success but will follow up on the Freeman's Journals. Thanks. Ron Norton

Thank you Lesley, I have tried National Library records without success but will follow up on the Freeman's Journals. Thanks. Ron Norton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lesley Uebel" <ckennedy@bigpond.net.au> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 1:59 PM Subject: Re: [PJ] Dublin Trial Records

Hi Sarah I don't know what became of him, but he did apply for permission to marry whilst in Newcastle in 1848 and holding his TOL. He applied to marry Mary Elizabeth Shaw - a woman who arrived in the colony free. She was only 17 at the time and Williams age is given as 34. I cannot find that this marriage went ahead in the NSW BDMs Regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Sarah Davies Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 6:22 PM To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com Cc: Irene Davies Subject: [PJ] William BRYANT (Hive 1834) Hi, I'm looking for info/descendants/help for my 4xgreat uncle William BRYANT. William was born abt 1815 in Mangotsfield/Bitton area, nr Bristol, Gloucestershire. He was tried at Gloucester Assizes 10.8.1833 for life. His crime was theft/housebreaking. He arrived on the ship "Hive" in 1834 and was sent to Goat Island, then a sandstone quarry. (His occupation was collier/coalminer). In 1838 he is assigned to the Australian Agricultural Company to work in the mines in Newcastle. He absconded twice. Recaptured twice. We next find him with a Ticket of Leave 28 May 1847. To remain in Newcastle. Three years later he is granted a Ticket of Leave Passport 16 Jun 1850 (and a Conditional Pardon is in the pipeline) and he is sent to Wide Bay/Burnett (now QLD) to work for Surveyor Hugh Labatt. Not a bright spark, William absconds again and his Conditional Pardon is with held until he can regain and hold a Ticket of Leave for six months. Decision made 1851. I think this is around the time he is sent to prison in Sydney. But not sure. He doesn't appear to have regained a Ticket of Leave. This is where we lose track of him. As we are having to trace him forwards, not backwards, any help from the listers on the convict mailing list would be most appreciated. Many thanks, Sarah Davies

Hi Ron If there was no appeal then I believe the only way is to check the Dublin Freeman's Journals for the trial details ..... and hundreds of people have had success using these papers.. You have tried your National Library ? regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Ron Norton Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 12:57 PM To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: [PJ] Dublin Trial Records Hi Lesley and List, Has any PJ Lister had any success researching Dublin convict trial records? I'm trying to find an 1829 record for one of my PJ convict ancestors. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Ron Norton ronn007@optusnet.com.au

On the subject of venereal disease and in particular syphilis. Early Australian history shows whole tribes of Aborigines were affected by this (introduced) disease along with others such as smallpox, etc. and many deaths occurred with whole tribal communities being wiped out. As well if you remember the true story of Karan Von Blixen that was immortalised in the film "Out of Africa" and in Denmark by a train carrying her name you will recall her husband passed the disease onto her and consequently she had no children. This just shows it's exceptional virulence that has no respect for or does not discriminate between classes. Barbara Corrigan.

Hi Lesley and List, Has any PJ Lister had any success researching Dublin convict trial records? I'm trying to find an 1829 record for one of my PJ convict ancestors. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Ron Norton ronn007@optusnet.com.au

Hi, I'm looking for info/descendants/help for my 4xgreat uncle William BRYANT. William was born abt 1815 in Mangotsfield/Bitton area, nr Bristol, Gloucestershire. He was tried at Gloucester Assizes 10.8.1833 for life. His crime was theft/housebreaking. He arrived on the ship "Hive" in 1834 and was sent to Goat Island, then a sandstone quarry. (His occupation was collier/coalminer). In 1838 he is assigned to the Australian Agricultural Company to work in the mines in Newcastle. He absconded twice. Recaptured twice. We next find him with a Ticket of Leave 28 May 1847. To remain in Newcastle. Three years later he is granted a Ticket of Leave Passport 16 Jun 1850 (and a Conditional Pardon is in the pipeline) and he is sent to Wide Bay/Burnett (now QLD) to work for Surveyor Hugh Labatt. Not a bright spark, William absconds again and his Conditional Pardon is with held until he can regain and hold a Ticket of Leave for six months. Decision made 1851. I think this is around the time he is sent to prison in Sydney. But not sure. He doesn't appear to have regained a Ticket of Leave. This is where we lose track of him. As we are having to trace him forwards, not backwards, any help from the listers on the convict mailing list would be most appreciated. Many thanks, Sarah Davies

My research took me to the study of the normal course of venereal disease before modern treatments. I found that sexually transmitted diseases are endemic in poor societies such as early Sydney- there is a lot of literature about diseases in developing societies which you can access if you are interested. About two thirds of women with the infection have no symptoms at all or at most very trivial ones which may be passed off as an apparently harmless vaginal discharge. There is a book on Google called Women in Early America By Dorothy A. Mays which makes interesting online reading on the subject The normal untreated course which you can expect to see is a period of infertility, or recurrent miscarriages, each pregnancy getting longer, until one baby survives, and then the normal spacing of births can be seen. This of course depends on the exact disease as gonorrhoea and syphilis are different. In the example I was looking at, the couple married, and had no children for almost 6 years, there was a death of one child, a couple of neonatal deaths, with the cause of death given as prematurity, and the next child survived. The couple went on to have 5 or 6 surviving children. If one can't keep an open mind in family history, it's best to leave it alone. It's impossible to walk in their shoes, so its unreasonable to judge them. Rosie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kay White" <kaylwhite@optusnet.com.au> To: "John Bushell" <bush@cbn.net.id>; <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [PJ] Unknown Crime > Hi John, > > > I am not judgemental on the contrary I have a great deal of > admiration for most convicts , whatever their crime! > Jane was born in Tipperary and arrived on the Andromeda 11 in 1834, > having been sentenced to 7 years for vagrancy. > > You could be right about her husband, Josiah, as he was also a > convict (Asia 1 , 1832) and died a year before Jane at 48 but as > official registration didn't start till the year Jane died (1857 > and she was 47) there was no cause of death I can only assume he > may have died from syphillus too! > > They became respected farmers of the Bathurst area. > > They only had 3 children ( at least 3 recorded) , unusual for that > time and I have wondered if the VD was the reason and whether it can > be passed to the next generation. > One child appears to have died young but their son, my direct > ancestor lived to 61 and their daughter lived to 87. > > Regards Kay > > On 05/02/2009, at 5:42 PM, John Bushell wrote: > >> >> Kay, don't be too judgemental on your ancestor. Just because she >> died of a >> horrendous sexually transmitted disease it does not follow that she >> was a >> prostitute. Her husband could have brought the disease home, for >> example. >> >> Best regards, >> John >> >> PS. I am not a feminist. However, I do think the law was in error >> on this >> issue. >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT- >> JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thankyou Leslie and Annie from Cairns (living in a boat) for checking Thomas Arnold out for me. Regards Rod McDonald Convict ancestors: Robert Forrester 'Scarborough' 1st Fleet 1789, Isabella Jane Ramsay ('MaryAnn' 3rd Fleet), Matthew Lock 'Surprise 1790', Euphram Graham 'Pitt 1792', Thomas Hodgetts 'Scarborough 2nd Fleet, Charles Homer Martin 'Charles Stuart 1818', James Stephenson (Midas2 1827) Non-convict pioneer family interest; Peter McLaren, wife Robina McDiarmid with family aboard 'Hero' from Leith Scotland 1839

Hi Rod, Can you please Email me off line re: Thomas Hodgetts 'Scarborough 2nd Fleet. Did he or any of his descendants end up in Tasmania? Cheers, John Caling Currimundi, Qld. jcaling@bigpond.com -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of RODNEY MCDONALD Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 7:12 AM To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: [PJ] Thomas Arnold Thankyou Leslie and Annie from Cairns (living in a boat) for checking Thomas Arnold out for me. Regards Rod McDonald Convict ancestors: Robert Forrester 'Scarborough' 1st Fleet 1789, Isabella Jane Ramsay ('MaryAnn' 3rd Fleet), Matthew Lock 'Surprise 1790', Euphram Graham 'Pitt 1792', Thomas Hodgetts 'Scarborough 2nd Fleet, Charles Homer Martin 'Charles Stuart 1818', James Stephenson (Midas2 1827) <SNIP>

Rod, In nsw bdms there is a Elizabeth born to Thomas ARNOLD & Sarah in 1812, no marriage of Thomas & Sarah before 1842. No John Ephraim & Sarah NUNN either. They must've come already married from somewhere else. But....the question is.....Where?? Cheers. Annie. > RODNEY MCDONALD <rodofoz@iprimus.com.au> wrote: > > Hi List > > Do any of you very learned persons of the list any knowledge of Thomas > Arnold arrived 1797 'Ganges' I have been thru the archives and find he > has not been mentioned. > I would be interested in his movements, marriage etcc. after his arrival > in 1797. > > Many thanks > > Regards > Rod McDonald > > Convict ancestors: > Robert Forrester 'Scarborough' 1st Fleet 1789, > Isabella Jane Ramsay ('MaryAnn' 3rd Fleet), > Matthew Lock 'Surprise 1790', > Euphram Graham 'Pitt 1792', > Thomas Hodgetts 'Scarborough 2nd Fleet, > Charles Homer Martin 'Charles Stuart 1818', > James Stephenson (Midas2 1827) > > Non-convict pioneer family interest; > Peter McLaren, wife Robina McDiarmid with family > aboard 'Hero' from Leith Scotland 1839 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Cheers. Anne from Cairns, Aus.

Rod, I have Sarah Ann ARNOLD born 1840 to John Ephraim ARNOLD & Sarah NUNN but no place of birth. Sarah married Henry Richard DORMAN 1863 Landsborough, Vic & died 1912 Maldon. I haven't done much on this family. I've not long discovered that Henry came to Aus, <maybe> with his brothers Morgan James & Stephen early 1850s. Cheers. Annie from very wet, raining again, Cairns, Aus. I actually got some washing dry today. > RODNEY MCDONALD <rodofoz@iprimus.com.au> wrote: > > Hi List > > Do any of you very learned persons of the list any knowledge of Thomas > Arnold arrived 1797 'Ganges' I have been thru the archives and find he > has not been mentioned. > I would be interested in his movements, marriage etcc. after his arrival > in 1797. > > Many thanks > > Regards > Rod McDonald > > Convict ancestors: > Robert Forrester 'Scarborough' 1st Fleet 1789, > Isabella Jane Ramsay ('MaryAnn' 3rd Fleet), > Matthew Lock 'Surprise 1790', > Euphram Graham 'Pitt 1792', > Thomas Hodgetts 'Scarborough 2nd Fleet, > Charles Homer Martin 'Charles Stuart 1818', > James Stephenson (Midas2 1827) > > Non-convict pioneer family interest; > Peter McLaren, wife Robina McDiarmid with family > aboard 'Hero' from Leith Scotland 1839 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Cheers. Anne from Cairns, Aus.

Hi John, I am not judgemental on the contrary I have a great deal of admiration for most convicts , whatever their crime! Jane was born in Tipperary and arrived on the Andromeda 11 in 1834, having been sentenced to 7 years for vagrancy. You could be right about her husband, Josiah, as he was also a convict (Asia 1 , 1832) and died a year before Jane at 48 but as official registration didn't start till the year Jane died (1857 and she was 47) there was no cause of death I can only assume he may have died from syphillus too! They became respected farmers of the Bathurst area. They only had 3 children ( at least 3 recorded) , unusual for that time and I have wondered if the VD was the reason and whether it can be passed to the next generation. One child appears to have died young but their son, my direct ancestor lived to 61 and their daughter lived to 87. Regards Kay On 05/02/2009, at 5:42 PM, John Bushell wrote: > > Kay, don't be too judgemental on your ancestor. Just because she > died of a > horrendous sexually transmitted disease it does not follow that she > was a > prostitute. Her husband could have brought the disease home, for > example. > > Best regards, > John > > PS. I am not a feminist. However, I do think the law was in error > on this > issue. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT- > JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Kay. I was not aware that prostitution was a crime back then. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kay White" <kaylwhite@optusnet.com.au> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:18 AM Subject: Re: [PJ] Unknown Crime > Hi Terry, > >> Vagrancy often meant "prostitution". > One of my ancestors was sent out for vagrancy. She died later from > Syphillus. > > Regards Kay >> >> >> I was also intrigued and somewhat appalled that a number of the >> ladies had >> been sentenced to seven years for "Vagrancy", a crime that seems so >> incredibly petty to warrant such a harsh sentence. >> >> Terry >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT- >> JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.18/1935 - Release Date: 02/03/09 17:48:00

Thanks Lesley, that makes sense. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lesley Uebel" <ckennedy@bigpond.net.au> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [PJ] Unknown Crime > Hi Terry > > > I think you will find that it means stealing wearing apparel. > > > regards > Lesley Uebel > mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au > CLAIM A CONVICT > http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Terry > Flowers > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 6:53 PM > To: AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS@rootsweb.com > Subject: [PJ] Unknown Crime > > > Hi All. > I have come across a crime that seems to have warranted a sentence of > seven > years transportation. > > "FELONY WEARING APPAREL" > > I came across this when checking Musters for the "John Bull" 1821 that > transported eighty mostly Irish ladies. > Does anyone know exactly what this crime is? > > I also noted that there was a marked difference in ages of some of the > ladies between the Indent and the Muster. Has anyone on the list come > across > this anomaly? Can anyone offer a suggestion as to why this is so? > > I was also intrigued and somewhat appalled that a number of the ladies had > been sentenced to seven years for "Vagrancy", a crime that seems so > incredibly petty to warrant such a harsh sentence. > > Terry > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.17/1933 - Release Date: 02/03/09 17:48:00

Hello Leslie Thank you for the suggestion. Michael McMahon

Hi Michael All I can suggest is that you check the Dublin Freeman's Journals as these papers do contain some information about the trials in Ireland - available on microfilm. You would have to check at a major library near you, but I believe that the National Library has a copy. On the other hand it may be available on-line..... for a charge at: http://www.irishnewsarchive.com/freemans-journal.php Regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of The McMahons Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 11:07 AM To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: [PJ] Owen McMahon (Rolla) Hello list I am trying to track down details of the crime that led to the transportation of Owen McMahon on the "Rolla". Owen figures in the early pages of the Sydney Gazette until he disappeared around 1810, sailing on the "Star", but this only covers his colonial misdeeds.. All that I have been able to find out is that he was sentenced to 7 years transportation at the 1802 Westmeath Assizes. NSW published material suggests he was transported for either stealing a bag of potatos, or for being a rebel. I know that the "Rolla" carried Irish convicts and that some, not all, were rebels. Does anyone have any suggestions about solving the mystery. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Michael McMahon