"Old Chum" a weekly(?) Sunday column in the Sydney Truth in and around January 1911 gives a story of the pubs up and down George St (and other streets) in the early days. I have not copied George St but the following account of Campbell St gives an example of how his columns described the situation, though I cannot recall whether he went back to 1830.. National and State libraries will have the microfilm. BEGINS Extract from *OLD SYDNEY OLD CHUM* by Old Chum *Truth*, Sunday January 25, 1911 (re Campbell Street in the *1850s)* …round by corner in Campbell Street in the early fifties were a number of inns patronised by farmers. One door from Mr. Byrne's *Peacock* was the *Picton Arms* named, I fancy, after the bucolic town on the Southern line, rather than after the famous General who 'foremost, fighting, fell'. It was in the first fifties kept by Robert McRoberts who had for next door neighbour James Madden, grocer, while next to him was *Luke Ryan, who kept the **Beehive Inn *. In connection with this hostelry, I have a gruesome story of murder, in which a soldier, a policeman and a tombstone in the old Presbyterian Cemetery in Devonshire-street are mixed up. Of that, however, at another time. Mr. Ryan's next door neighbour was one Cornelius Murray. Next to him was Philip Hart, who kept the *Irish Harp*, as Governor Bligh remarked of Mr. John Reddington, 'a disaffected Irishman, who kept a public house with the sign of the Harp without the Crown'. Cheek by jowl – brick to brick – with Mr. Hart was Mr. James Cullen, who kept the *Packhorse*. Then there was Robert Hewey, a general dealer, and then on the corner of Pitt Street a collection of sheds designated a hay and corn store and kept by John McIntosh….. the year 1858 saw many changes – James Tunks succeeding Mr. McRoberts (i.e. as prop of the *Picton Arms*. ENDS Frank M. Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 14:53:01 +1100 > From: "nuages" <nuages@apex.net.au> > Subject: Re: [PJ] AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS Digest, Vol 4, Issue 57 > To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <1A31AF2E50954F74AA2BE67FB4B5956E@IANSNEWPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Dear Arnie > State Records has copies of publicans licences. > > Regards > Ian > > > >

At 06:39 PM 16/02/2009, you wrote: Kath You can get it from SAG who publish it - www.sag.org.au Gary =============================== >Many Thanks Gary, yes he is ours, the PUB was on part of his first >grant, the land was no good for farming so he made for the Hawksberry >River 1794. May I ask where to purchase the C. D. >Kath > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word >'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________ Gary Luke ~ gary@feraltek.com.au Sydney, Australia

Many Thanks Gary, yes he is ours, the PUB was on part of his first grant, the land was no good for farming so he made for the Hawksberry River 1794. May I ask where to purchase the C. D. Kath

Hi list, I came across this list in the Sydney Gazette -> GOVERNMENT NOTICE. Colonial Secretary's Office, 1st June, 1829. HIS Excellency the Governor has been pleased to direct, that the following List of Towns and Stations, with the Distances in Miles from Sydney, be published for general Information. http://ndpbeta.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2192601 Rick

Hello List, Thomas PEARCE ("Coromandel 1804) was the Publican of the "Rose & Crown", Parramatta, 1828. Lynette -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of fletch Sent: Sunday, 15 February 2009 1:39 PM To: AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS@rootsweb.com Subject: [PJ] sydney hotels 1815-1830

At 03:26 PM 16/02/2009, you wrote: Kath Edward Powell had the "Halfway House" at Parramatta Rd, Homebush from 1809 to 1813. He ided in 1814. It's listed for Elizabeth Powell in 1815 to 1818, then to her son Edward in 1819. The biog notes are worth reading. Just in case he's yours, there are a few pubs listed for a James Powell at various addresses in the city in the 1820s & 1830s. Gary ====================== >Hello Gary, >Would you mind one asking if Edward Powell is on the C.D. his Hotel >was on Parramatta RD from 1814 of memory I think >Regards >Kath Connors _________________________________ Gary Luke ~ gary@feraltek.com.au Sydney, Australia

Hello Gary, Would you mind one asking if Edward Powell is on the C.D. his Hotel was on Parramatta RD from 1814 of memory I think Regards Kath Connors ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Luke" <gary@feraltek.com.au> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [PJ] sydney hotels 1815-1830 > At 03:08 PM 15/02/2009, you wrote: > > Arnie > > All it means is that the primary and secondary sources used for this > CD did not mention the pub's name, or were not certain enough for the > compilers to include it. The CD has a list of sources used in the > bibliography in the help file. > > There are a number of pubs called Black Horse, but none of them have > the two surnames you mentioned. You should try to find the CD at a > library. There might be other names or clues that you recognise in > the notes fields. > > > Gary > > ========================= > >>Thank you Gary and Lesley, >> >>The James Richards and the William Mansell you mention are no relation >>that >>I know of but the George Richards in George St. in 1821 would be my ggg >>grandfather. That no pub is listed with the name I supplied, does this >>mean >>that I have the wrong meaning of the occupation " house-keeper " ? >><snip> >>Was it possible in those days to run such an establishment but without a >>name over the door ? >> >>Arnie > > _________________________________ > Gary Luke ~ gary@feraltek.com.au > Sydney, Australia > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1953 - Release Date: 02/14/09 18:01:00

Thanks Ian Regards Arnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "nuages" <nuages@apex.net.au> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PJ] AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS Digest, Vol 4, Issue 57 > Dear Arnie > State Records has copies of publicans licences. > > Regards > Ian > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Dear Arnie State Records has copies of publicans licences. Regards Ian

Thanks Rhonda, that's a great resource I didn't consider. I know of the web site, but didn't look at it in this way. I also noticed that the newspapers contain ship departures and arrivals notices. I will have to spend some time here. Thank you to everyone else on the list to helped with my question. Kind regards, Marina. On 14/02/2009, at 7:53 PM, Rhonda Flowers wrote: > Hello Marina > > If you go to the following site and search in the 'advanced search' > say for > the years 1803 to 1850 you will find that many ships were heading to > Valparaiso Chile when they left the Colony. Some of these ships may > have > been heading back to England picking up goods for sale on the way. > Goods > were also brought into the Colony from Valparaiso Chile. For example > in one > article > from the Sydney Gazette in 1820s wheat from Valparaiso Chile is > discussed as > being of being of high quality but "never clean". > > http://ndpbeta.nla.gov.au/ > > Happy reading! > > Rhonda > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marina Grainger" <mgrainger67@yahoo.com.au> > To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 1:43 PM > Subject: Re: [PJ] Former Convict Departures > > >> Hi John, >> >> Very well explained thank you! I am very much a newbie at family >> history and this was fascinating reading. Just wondering is some >> ships >> may have stopped in Valparaiso Chile for supplies etc? >> >> Regards, >> Marina. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

At 03:47 AM 16/02/2009, you wrote: Matt >Another point of interest are that there are quite a few in the US 1850 >census with the birth place 'Sydney' or 'Australia' (just had a quick look) >- and several easily tied back to NSW BDM records. > >If people think this is worth indexing let me know, as i've been looking for >a project and this looks like a doozy. Likewise, has this already been >performed? I reckon you've discovered a fresh resource. I'm doing research into the earliest Jewish convicts, many of whom had family connections spread across the Anglo-sphere - England, Australia, New Zealand, America, Canada, India & West Indies. Some of these convicts and their free settler relations shifted around a bit. In my research I haven't come across any lists like this or formal studies of returnees to England or migrations to America. In the 1800s there was quite a lot of movement within the big European Austrian and Ottoman empires. We think now of separate countries with border controls - they thought of it as regions within a larger empire with a common official language and similar systems of rule. The British empire wasn't one piece of land like the other empires - sea voyages made it a bit more difficult to travel within the empire. A book which treats part of it - "Australians and the Gold Rush, California and Down Under, 1849-1854", Jay Monaghan, pub 1966. Gary _________________________________ Gary Luke ~ gary@feraltek.com.au Sydney, Australia

Me again Liz I think that the Australian accent has evolved over many generations since transportation was abolished to PJ . The convicts were arriving from many countries - the English, Irish and Scots all have distinctive accents and add to that mix those convicts from say Germany, Russia etc You only have to remember :))) or listen to old wireless shows to realise that the average Australian accent has changed just in the past 50 years. The great wave of Europeans arriving in the 1900's has changed our accent (generally) and the food we eat as has the migration of peoples from Asian and middle eastern countries. Regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Elizabeth Walker Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 5:04 PM To: AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [PJ] Convicts from Suffolk, etc. Good afternoon Lesley and listers. I have just been given by one of my Marjoram relatives in England, a book from the U.K. called "Caw'd a Hell Thas Suffen Good" by a fellow who writes under the name of Charlie Haycock, and I have found it very entertaining. It is about the Suffolk and Norfolk dialects which are pretty similar, and they are supposedly markedly different to the other county dialects in England. The writer (who I believe is a teacher by profession, as well as a brilliant speaker according to another of my Marjoram researchers in Suffolk), makes the claim that Suffolk and then Norfolk contributed the most convicts to the colony in New South Wales, and he claims that this is why the Australian accent in general sounds much like the accents of these two counties. Leslie have you worked out the proportion of convicts which came from the various English counties, and is there any foundation on what Charlie claims. Comments please. :-)

Thanks Gary, I'll check it out - I 'lost' James Hines prior to the 1828 census. Russell Gary Luke wrote: >At 06:25 PM 15/02/2009, you wrote: > >Russell > >The CD is an index with supplementary notes. This was one item in the >notes. There's more - a bit about his three wives, and references. >You should look for the CD and check it yourself. > > >Gary > >========================== > > >>This is very insightful and exciting - can you tell me how you found >>that James Richards was the son of Phebe Hines of the Lord Melville? >> >>Gary Luke wrote: >> >> >> >>>.... >>>James Richards was a son of convict Phoebe Haines, Lord Melville >>>1817. ... >>> >>> > >_________________________________ >Gary Luke ~ gary@feraltek.com.au >Sydney, Australia > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

At 06:25 PM 15/02/2009, you wrote: Russell The CD is an index with supplementary notes. This was one item in the notes. There's more - a bit about his three wives, and references. You should look for the CD and check it yourself. Gary ========================== >This is very insightful and exciting - can you tell me how you found >that James Richards was the son of Phebe Hines of the Lord Melville? > >Gary Luke wrote: > > >.... > >James Richards was a son of convict Phoebe Haines, Lord Melville > >1817. ... _________________________________ Gary Luke ~ gary@feraltek.com.au Sydney, Australia

Hi Liz I would like to know how he came to that conclusion :) It is impossible for anyone to make such claims as it would require someone to go through each and every Indent and extract the Native Place for each convict. The Native Place is not always the place of birth nor do all Indents provide this information. The majority of convicts tried in England were tried in London. Just over 1000 were tried in Norfolk and just over 700 were tried in Suffolk. Surrey accounted for over 2300 convicts regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Elizabeth Walker Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 5:04 PM To: AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [PJ] Convicts from Suffolk, etc. Good afternoon Lesley and listers. I have just been given by one of my Marjoram relatives in England, a book from the U.K. called "Caw'd a Hell Thas Suffen Good" by a fellow who writes under the name of Charlie Haycock, and I have found it very entertaining. It is about the Suffolk and Norfolk dialects which are pretty similar, and they are supposedly markedly different to the other county dialects in England. The writer (who I believe is a teacher by profession, as well as a brilliant speaker according to another of my Marjoram researchers in Suffolk), makes the claim that Suffolk and then Norfolk contributed the most convicts to the colony in New South Wales, and he claims that this is why the Australian accent in general sounds much like the accents of these two counties. Leslie have you worked out the proportion of convicts which came from the various English counties, and is there any foundation on what Charlie claims. Comments please. :-) Liz at The Lake where its pretty soggy underfoot.

Many thanks Elizabeth Regards Arnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Convict Trail" <convicttrail@bigpond.com> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [PJ] sydney hotels 1815-1830 > George Richards > Source Col Secretary > Licensed to sell beer ale and porter only > 17/2/1821 > George Street Sydney > > CD Pubs and Publicans in the County of Cumberland NSW to 1850 compiled by > Ken Knight and Allan Rost for SAG > > Regards Elizabeth > > -----Original Message----- > From: fletch [mailto:waugpath@bigpond.net.au] > Sent: Sunday, 15 February 2009 1:39 PM > To: AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS@rootsweb.com > Subject: [PJ] sydney hotels 1815-1830 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

George Richards Source Col Secretary Licensed to sell beer ale and porter only 17/2/1821 George Street Sydney CD Pubs and Publicans in the County of Cumberland NSW to 1850 compiled by Ken Knight and Allan Rost for SAG Regards Elizabeth -----Original Message----- From: fletch [mailto:waugpath@bigpond.net.au] Sent: Sunday, 15 February 2009 1:39 PM To: AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS@rootsweb.com Subject: [PJ] sydney hotels 1815-1830 Hi List, Would anyone have any idea where I may find information regarding hotel licensees from the period mentioned above ? I have reason to believe that my g g g grandparents George and Grace RICHARDS nee MANSELL were the ' house-keepers ' of this particular establishment " The Sign of the Black Horse " in the BRICKFIELD / GEORGE Street area of Sydney. I have discovered some classified adverts in the Sydney Gazette New South Wales Advertiser in April of 1824 and 1826 that has George selling a quantity of locally grown hops and it mentions the name of the ' house ' where inquiries can be made to purchase same. Any ideas would be welcome, thank you. Arnie

Hi, Liz, The book by Charlie Haycock sounds worth checking out. If you are interested in the origin of the Australian accent, there is an excellent book called 'Speaking Our Language: The Story of Australian English' by Bruce Moore - published by Oxford University Press. My recollection of Moore's book is that he found that it was the children of the currency lads and lasses who first spoke with a recognisable Australian accent. Regards Merril > Elizabeth Walker <lizrose@tpg.com.au> wrote: > > Good afternoon Lesley and listers. > > I have just been given by one of my Marjoram relatives in England, a > book from the U.K. called "Caw'd a Hell Thas Suffen Good" by a fellow > who writes under the name of Charlie Haycock, and I have found it very > entertaining. > > It is about the Suffolk and Norfolk dialects which are pretty similar, > and they are supposedly markedly different to the other county dialects > in England. The writer (who I believe is a teacher by profession, as > well as a brilliant speaker according to another of my Marjoram > researchers in Suffolk), makes the claim that Suffolk and then Norfolk > contributed the most convicts to the colony in New South Wales, and he > claims that this is why the Australian accent in general sounds much > like the accents of these two counties. > > Leslie have you worked out the proportion of convicts which came from > the various English counties, and is there any foundation on what > Charlie claims. > > Comments please. :-) > > Liz at The Lake where its pretty soggy underfoot. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gary, This is very insightful and exciting - can you tell me how you found that James Richards was the son of Phebe Hines of the Lord Melville? Gary Luke wrote: >.... >James Richards was a son of convict Phoebe Haines, Lord Melville >1817. ... > >

Good afternoon Lesley and listers. I have just been given by one of my Marjoram relatives in England, a book from the U.K. called "Caw'd a Hell Thas Suffen Good" by a fellow who writes under the name of Charlie Haycock, and I have found it very entertaining. It is about the Suffolk and Norfolk dialects which are pretty similar, and they are supposedly markedly different to the other county dialects in England. The writer (who I believe is a teacher by profession, as well as a brilliant speaker according to another of my Marjoram researchers in Suffolk), makes the claim that Suffolk and then Norfolk contributed the most convicts to the colony in New South Wales, and he claims that this is why the Australian accent in general sounds much like the accents of these two counties. Leslie have you worked out the proportion of convicts which came from the various English counties, and is there any foundation on what Charlie claims. Comments please. :-) Liz at The Lake where its pretty soggy underfoot.