Hi John This painting is in the Jonhston book. cheers \ Grahame On 26/02/2009, at 1:01 PM, John wrote: > > > Thanks Jennie, > > > So entrenched did the idea become that Brickfields Hill had been > the slope > where Anthony Hordens finished up, a bit down from the Town Hall (old > burial ground) in George Street, that there was even a later > suggestion > written by someone that the early painting published that seems to > have > been from a drawing done at Brickfield Hill, on the road to > Parramatta, > must have been 'reversed'. > > For that painting is easiest to understand if it were done on the > southern > side of the small creek valley through the early haymarkets. It > takes some > mental gymnastics to envisage it as being done where the final Anthony > Hordens department store went up, whence the idea that it might > have been > reversed somehow in the printing process. > > I can discuss finer details more off list if interested. > > > Best Regards, > > > > > John > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > At 02:37 AM 26/02/2009 +0900, you wrote: > >> Hi Grahame & John & Liz > >> Just to follow up on the Brickfield Hill location and butt into your >> discussion: >> >> Book: 'Early Sydney (1984) by Tess van Sommers states: "One of >> the early >> convicts who was a skilled craftsman was James BLOODWORTH, >> brickmaker. He >> earned his pardon by helping to establish the first brickworks at >> Brickfield >> Hill. By the end of 1789, there were three kilns going, turning >> out 30,000 >> bricks and tiles a month. The early brickmakers had to knead the >> clay with >> their feet.' And it goes on. >> >> Also, I have been corresponding with Susan on this PJ List about a >> book in >> my possession titled "The Story of Old George Street" by Charles >> H. Bertie >> (1920). >> On Page 35 there is an illustration (full page) of 'GEORGE STREET ON >> BRICKFIELD HILL IN AUGUST, 1796' captioned: Convicts are seen >> bringing in >> timber on a waggon drawn by bullocks. Three years previously >> these waggons >> and those for carrying bricks and tiles from the brickfields in >> the vicinity >> of Campbell Street were drawn by teams of convicts. >> >> On Page 33: the text states: 'A little further south, about the >> intersection of Bathurst street, we have the site of the picture >> "Brickfield >> Hill in 1796" reproduced on page 35. This was taken from Collin's >> account >> of New South Wales, published in 1798. The cart, it will be >> observed, is >> drawn by bullocks. If Captain Collins' artist had drawn his >> picture about >> three years earlier (in 1793), the bullocks sould have been >> replaced by men. >> Writing in December of that year, of the bricks made lower down >> the hill, >> Collins says: - >> "To convey these materials from the brickfield to the barrack >> ground, a >> distance of about three-quarters of a mile, three brick carts were >> employed, >> each drawn by 12 men, under the direction of one overseer. Seven >> hundred >> tiles, or 350 bricks, were brought by each cart, and every cart, >> in the day, >> brought either five loads of bricks or four of tiles." To bring >> in the >> timber, four timber carriages were employed, each being drawn by >> 24 men. >> For a number of years in early Sydney the use of bullocks, in >> place of >> horses, was universal. They were used in shafts like horses, in >> teams with >> traces, and even for riding purposes. The road down BRICKFIELD >> HILL became >> populated within a year or two of the foundation of the Colony. >> In 1790 a >> road to the brick kiln was made, and Collins, in December 1793, >> says that >> 150 huts had been added since the departure of Governor Phillip, >> and that >> "the huts extended nearly to the brickfields whence others were >> building to >> meet them, and thus unite that district with the town." These >> brickfields >> were situated in the vicinity bounded roughly by George, Campbell, >> Elizabeth >> and Goulburn streets. On the corner of Goulburn street we have >> the large >> stores of Messrs. Anthony Hordern and Sons. The original Anthony >> Hordern >> arrived in Sydney in the early 'twenties of last century, and >> opened a >> coachbuilding works in King Street, on the site of the "Truth" >> offices; >> while his wife conducted a haberdashery shop alongside. Their two >> sons, >> Anthony and Lebbius, opened a shop on BRICKFIELD HILL, the site of >> which is >> incorporated in the present building. The business was afterwards >> removed >> to the Haymarket where Mr. Sam Hordern, son of Anthony No. 2, >> built up the >> huge concern of today. On July 10, 1901, a devastating fire swept >> through >> the Haymarket premises, unfortunately attended with loss of life, >> which, in >> two hours, destroyed half a million pounds worth of goods. The >> present >> premises were thereafter built.' >> >> Hope some of the above is helpful. >> Cheers Jennie >> W.A. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT- > JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Kath I mentioned the title in a previous post earlier this month - its Marine Officer - Convict Wife by Alan Roberts Cheers Grahame On 26/02/2009, at 12:17 PM, Kath Connors wrote: > Thanks Graham & Rosslyn for your reply > May I ask the name of his new book and who was the author, > Edward Powell was one of the first five free settlers , his first > grant was > Homebush, part of Rookwood now cemetery, it was not suitable for > farming, > he then went up the Hawksberry River and settled at Cornwallis > 1795. as > children we were for ever asking our uncles to show us the site > where they > landed. > > Regards > Kath > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT- > JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

At 11:46 AM 26/02/2009 +0900, Jennie wrote/quoted: <snip> > ... There yet probably remain a number of coffins in the Town Hall grounds, while others may have the wood blocks of George Street as their covering. One, I know, is under the footpath just on the south side of the southern gateway entrance to the Town Hall. There's a nice photo of the surface just scraped off to a very small depth along the footpath on the northern side of the town hall that clearly shows a number of grave outlines there. A similar scaping of the soil before building extensions at St Marys church in Concord not long ago revealed a number of rectangular small outlines ... child burials which apparently nobody in recent times knew were there. The latter photo was on the front page of one of the inner west suburban newspapers (I forget 'when' exactly). Cheers, John

There was also a Lumber yard at Parramatta. If you email me off line I can put you in touch with someone who has done a fair bit of research on the Parramatta Lumber yard. Regards Elizabeth Roberts -----Original Message----- From: Jenny T [mailto:jennygirl@unwired.com.au] Sent: Wednesday, 25 February 2009 10:41 PM To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: [PJ] Lumber Yards Hello Lesley and Wayne Thank you both for your replies and comments. I am still a little tentative in regards to how I should record Daniel Canvin's whereabouts. Some extra information has just been uncovered since I last wrote to the List. Daniel came from a family in Bristol and his father (also Daniel) was a blacksmith and a Bristol Burgess. Daniel arrived on the Elizabeth 3 Dec 1820 and I now have Daniel recorded, taken from theColonial Secretary's Papers, as Employed at New Lumber Yard on List of all persons victualled from H M Magazine 8 Sep 1821 reel 6016, 4/5781, p 95. Am I to take it that the NEW Lumber Yard is at Emu Plains? I also believe from another Lister that lumber would have been one of the main activities at the Emu Plains prison farm. I have done extensive research for the Lumber Yard that was in George Street and I uderstand what a hub of industry took place in lumber yards and with Daniel's background I would imagine that he would have worked as a blacksmith as that is what he did for the rest of his life. I too, have not been able to find a Ticket of Leave and I was interested to hear from you Lesley that it may have meant that he remained working for the government until his sentence expired in 1827. Is there anyway of finding out where this NEW Lumber Yard may have been 1821? Many thanks for Jenny I wrote: This is my brick wall; I am trying to find the Goverment Lumber Yard that my convict Daniel Canvin 1820> was employed. I had it all nicely pigeon holed and I was quoting in my research the Lumber Yard that was in Sydney Town corner of George and Bridge Street. I then obtained the General Muster List of NSW 1823, 1824, 1825, and here I find him under Goverment Employment at Emu Plains with a spelling of Cannivan. I now have to rethink my research. I was as wondering if anyone knew much about convicts at Emu Plains and if it had a Lumber Yard 1820- 1827. I am aware that Daniel ended up working for the Badgery Family all of his life however I am not sure when his Goverment Employemt ended and his work for the Badgery family began. I am also wondering why I can't find Daniel in 1822 Muster

Thanks Jennie, So entrenched did the idea become that Brickfields Hill had been the slope where Anthony Hordens finished up, a bit down from the Town Hall (old burial ground) in George Street, that there was even a later suggestion written by someone that the early painting published that seems to have been from a drawing done at Brickfield Hill, on the road to Parramatta, must have been 'reversed'. For that painting is easiest to understand if it were done on the southern side of the small creek valley through the early haymarkets. It takes some mental gymnastics to envisage it as being done where the final Anthony Hordens department store went up, whence the idea that it might have been reversed somehow in the printing process. I can discuss finer details more off list if interested. Best Regards, John ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ At 02:37 AM 26/02/2009 +0900, you wrote: >Hi Grahame & John & Liz >Just to follow up on the Brickfield Hill location and butt into your >discussion: > >Book: 'Early Sydney (1984) by Tess van Sommers states: "One of the early >convicts who was a skilled craftsman was James BLOODWORTH, brickmaker. He >earned his pardon by helping to establish the first brickworks at Brickfield >Hill. By the end of 1789, there were three kilns going, turning out 30,000 >bricks and tiles a month. The early brickmakers had to knead the clay with >their feet.' And it goes on. > >Also, I have been corresponding with Susan on this PJ List about a book in >my possession titled "The Story of Old George Street" by Charles H. Bertie >(1920). >On Page 35 there is an illustration (full page) of 'GEORGE STREET ON >BRICKFIELD HILL IN AUGUST, 1796' captioned: Convicts are seen bringing in >timber on a waggon drawn by bullocks. Three years previously these waggons >and those for carrying bricks and tiles from the brickfields in the vicinity >of Campbell Street were drawn by teams of convicts. > >On Page 33: the text states: 'A little further south, about the >intersection of Bathurst street, we have the site of the picture "Brickfield >Hill in 1796" reproduced on page 35. This was taken from Collin's account >of New South Wales, published in 1798. The cart, it will be observed, is >drawn by bullocks. If Captain Collins' artist had drawn his picture about >three years earlier (in 1793), the bullocks sould have been replaced by men. >Writing in December of that year, of the bricks made lower down the hill, >Collins says: - >"To convey these materials from the brickfield to the barrack ground, a >distance of about three-quarters of a mile, three brick carts were employed, >each drawn by 12 men, under the direction of one overseer. Seven hundred >tiles, or 350 bricks, were brought by each cart, and every cart, in the day, >brought either five loads of bricks or four of tiles." To bring in the >timber, four timber carriages were employed, each being drawn by 24 men. >For a number of years in early Sydney the use of bullocks, in place of >horses, was universal. They were used in shafts like horses, in teams with >traces, and even for riding purposes. The road down BRICKFIELD HILL became >populated within a year or two of the foundation of the Colony. In 1790 a >road to the brick kiln was made, and Collins, in December 1793, says that >150 huts had been added since the departure of Governor Phillip, and that >"the huts extended nearly to the brickfields whence others were building to >meet them, and thus unite that district with the town." These brickfields >were situated in the vicinity bounded roughly by George, Campbell, Elizabeth >and Goulburn streets. On the corner of Goulburn street we have the large >stores of Messrs. Anthony Hordern and Sons. The original Anthony Hordern >arrived in Sydney in the early 'twenties of last century, and opened a >coachbuilding works in King Street, on the site of the "Truth" offices; >while his wife conducted a haberdashery shop alongside. Their two sons, >Anthony and Lebbius, opened a shop on BRICKFIELD HILL, the site of which is >incorporated in the present building. The business was afterwards removed >to the Haymarket where Mr. Sam Hordern, son of Anthony No. 2, built up the >huge concern of today. On July 10, 1901, a devastating fire swept through >the Haymarket premises, unfortunately attended with loss of life, which, in >two hours, destroyed half a million pounds worth of goods. The present >premises were thereafter built.' > >Hope some of the above is helpful. >Cheers Jennie >W.A.

Thanks Graham & Rosslyn for your reply May I ask the name of his new book and who was the author, Edward Powell was one of the first five free settlers , his first grant was Homebush, part of Rookwood now cemetery, it was not suitable for farming, he then went up the Hawksberry River and settled at Cornwallis 1795. as children we were for ever asking our uncles to show us the site where they landed. Regards Kath

Thanks again Joan, Johnstone established many " STATIONS" along with Gigley King the Rev Riddell, some on the Murray River and Murrumbatman, also " Cavan" and " Jeir " "Namana" etc they were the ones our convict ancestors were assigned to them in 1830 onwards. with the release of government documents of late years has allowed us to break down many brick walls. ( hence our passion for early Australian History) Many thanks again Joan ----- Original Message ----- From: "L Nichols" <status22@tpg.com.au> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 9:39 AM Subject: [PJ] Esther Abrahams; Powell & Johnstone - Land Grants Part 2 Hello Kath - continuing with Captain Johnstone as he was then. Note: Spelling from (c) onwards is Johnston (c) 1798/99 - Book 2B Grants by Governor Hunter No 777 Captain George Johnston April 6, 1798, Granted 172 acres in the district of Bankstown. Rent 2/- per year commencing after 5 years. (d) 1799 - Book 2B Grants by Governor Hunter No 838 Captain George Johnston Oct. 7 Granted 290 acres in the district of Petersham. Rent 2/- per year commencing after 5 years. (e) 1804 - Book 3C Grants by Governor King No 1272 Major George Johnston Aug 12 Granted 72 acres in the district of Bankstown. Rent: 2/- per year commencing after 5 years. (f) 1805/06 - Book 3C Grants by Governor King No 1311 Major George Johnston Dec 18, 1805 Granted 2,000 acres in the district of Cabramatta. Rent: £2 per year commencing after 5 years. NOW THIS NEXT BIT IS VERY INTERESTING!!!!!!! It looks like that from Nos. 1385 to 1397 (inclusive) it appears that the grants were issued by George Johnston including two to himself. The 3 previous grants had been issued by Governor Bligh and from No. 1398 they were issued by Joseph Foveaux. (g) 1807/1808 - Book 3C Grants by George Johnston No 1388 George Johnston July 8 1808 Granted 2,000 acres (don't know where). Rent 10/- per year commencing after 5 years. "Destroyed 8th September, 1825. F.G." (h) 1808 - Book 3C Grants by George Johnston No 1390 Granted 2,000 acres (don't know where). Rent: 10/- per year commencing after 10 years. "Entered in page 226 (Signed) N. Bayly. Secretary. to be continued in Part 3. Joan ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Cathy You wrote: Does the book mention the Old Sydney Burial Ground - where the Sydney Town Hall is today Yes it does - but it is not indexed [sounds like a job I must find time to do one day] - so although it is only 37 pages, it is closely typed text - and hard to immediately pick up an individual reference to a place. On one level, the book basically is the author 'walking' through George Street and commenting on what was on a particular site post 1788 settlement. It is quite fascinating and full of adverts and illustrations (also not listed for easy reference <sigh> ). However, am beginning to think this slim volume is a bit of a treasure because it is full of places, names, illustrations, and details. Even mentions 'a shop tenanted by Cowles and Dunn, now part of Messrs. F. Lassetter and Company's premises, the White Horse Tavern stood till it was removed across the road.' [picked up on the'Dunn' name, you see <grin>. [Note: all capitalisation below is my emphasis]. ...and the old LUMBER YARD was also mentioned (an enquiry from another PJ Lister) - so I will try to extract that info some time over the next few days. In the meantime, the LUMBER YARD was located: 'corner of George and Bridge Streets...where the convicts in the Hyde Park Barracks were employed...' And another location snippet: 'a little beyond the southern boundary of the LUMBER YARD ...come to what is now Bond Street..' Although Bond Street did not exist until 1832. The old burial grounds are mentioned in part: Page 11: 'Site of first hospital in Australia... building stood just a little north of the present Globe Street...soon filled...overflow of patients accommodated in tents...misery...blankets and sheets for the hospital had been forgotten in the equipment of the First Fleet...beds of grass, and drugs...inferior quality. When a man died the unfortunates near him stripped his body, before it was cold, of its clothing...gradually the hospital quarters and surgeon's residences extended along George Street until they reached from Globe Street to a little north of Argyle Street. Illustration: Sydney in 1803 - buildings visible. 'As a natural concomitant to the hospital a CEMETERY was established near Globe Street, and the tombstone of George Graves of the 'Sirius' came from this site.' [the one found in Bethel Street and used as a paving stone to plug a gap in the mud...]. Page 33: quoting reminiscences of J.B.M. - 'The brewery reservoir of Terry Hughes [Albion Brewery] stood within the drainage area of the old DEVONSHIRE STREET CEMETERY, which imparted a special flavour to the beer.' [my comment: Oh dear!!] Page 32: 'On the Druitt street end was the watch-house. On the other side of Druitt Street, where the TOWN HALL now stands, was one of the early Sydney CEMETERIES. The FIRST was in George Street North, in the vicinity of Globe Street; the SECOND was near the corner of Clarence and Margaret Streets; and the THIRD was on the Town Hall site, and was in use as early as 1793, and closed as a CEMETERY in 1820. For some 50 years it remained as an eye-sore to the city; during the day boys played between the tombstones and at night it was the haunt of bad characters. There yet probably remain a number of coffins in the Town Hall grounds, while others may have the wood blocks of George Street as their covering. One, I know, is under the footpath just on the south side of the southern gateway entrance to the Town Hall. In 1904, when the electric light cables were being laid along this footpath, a corner of the coffin was disclosed. It was not disturbed, but a bottle containing an inscription and newspaper of the day was placed inside, and the coffin cemented over. Little did the relatives of that man dream when they lowered the body into its grave that it would have one day for its tombstone a magnificent building, that over it would pass daily the tread of a thousand feet, and that within a foot of its resting place would pass a mysterious current with powers so incredible that it would transcend their wildest dreams. When the City Council was looking for a site for a Town Hall in 1843 it asked the Government to vest in it the OLD BURIAL GROUND for this purpose. The Governor agreed, and introduced a Bill in 1845, but a select committee reported against the proposal, and the measure was dropped. I do not know if the letter of an irate objector to the proposal which appeared in one of the papers in September, 1845, had anything to do with the rejection of the proposal. So that you may judge I quote the first paragraph: - "Gracious Heavens! Is it possible that, in the nineteenth century, when the univeral diffusion of human intelligence and knowledge is declared to be the Ultima Thule of sublunary blessedness, in the promotion of which her most Christian Majesty Queen Victoria, of all the lords, temporal and spiritual, of her Imperial Parliament profess to combine, that her Majesty's representative in Botany Bay should be so abandoned to all sense of decency, allegiance, and duty to her most gracious Majesty, and her most loved subjects in this remote territory, as to propose a project so monstrous, so inhuman, and unchristian as the sacrilegious spoliation of the sacred repositories of the silent dead." When the members of the Legislative Council came to the surface again, after reading this, they also probably ejaculated "Gracious Heavens!". The Council were more successful in a later application, and on March 3, 1869, an Act was passed vesting the site in the Council.' Sincerely hope this helps you out. And also hope I haven't overstepped any PJ-List protocols with a number of quotes from this Old George Street book. Will also post to the List in case others are interested. Cheers Jennie in W.A.

Interesting, as there was no 1829 there when I looked last week. Off to try again At 11:48 PM 25/02/2009, you wrote: >Hi Min, > >The National Library in Canberra has copies of the Freeman's Journal for >that period and only yesterday I viewed copies of the 1828-1829 issues. > >The Library's website is www.nla.gov.au >Search the Library's catalogue on their EResources link > >Ron Norton >Canberra

Many Thanks Joan, Yes we have all those records when his history was recorded by the family in 1936. Our search is for another gg grandfather Johny Jones whom we also heard so much about as children and knew he had a strong connection with Major Johnsons sons, he was not a convict and that has made it harder to trace.. Your reply to me is much appreciated. Regards Kath From: "L Nichols" <status22@tpg.com.au> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [PJ] Ester Abrahams; Johnstone and Powell - land grants Part 1.

Hi Grahame & John & Liz Just to follow up on the Brickfield Hill location and butt into your discussion: Book: 'Early Sydney (1984) by Tess van Sommers states: "One of the early convicts who was a skilled craftsman was James BLOODWORTH, brickmaker. He earned his pardon by helping to establish the first brickworks at Brickfield Hill. By the end of 1789, there were three kilns going, turning out 30,000 bricks and tiles a month. The early brickmakers had to knead the clay with their feet.' And it goes on. Also, I have been corresponding with Susan on this PJ List about a book in my possession titled "The Story of Old George Street" by Charles H. Bertie (1920). On Page 35 there is an illustration (full page) of 'GEORGE STREET ON BRICKFIELD HILL IN AUGUST, 1796' captioned: Convicts are seen bringing in timber on a waggon drawn by bullocks. Three years previously these waggons and those for carrying bricks and tiles from the brickfields in the vicinity of Campbell Street were drawn by teams of convicts. On Page 33: the text states: 'A little further south, about the intersection of Bathurst street, we have the site of the picture "Brickfield Hill in 1796" reproduced on page 35. This was taken from Collin's account of New South Wales, published in 1798. The cart, it will be observed, is drawn by bullocks. If Captain Collins' artist had drawn his picture about three years earlier (in 1793), the bullocks sould have been replaced by men. Writing in December of that year, of the bricks made lower down the hill, Collins says: - "To convey these materials from the brickfield to the barrack ground, a distance of about three-quarters of a mile, three brick carts were employed, each drawn by 12 men, under the direction of one overseer. Seven hundred tiles, or 350 bricks, were brought by each cart, and every cart, in the day, brought either five loads of bricks or four of tiles." To bring in the timber, four timber carriages were employed, each being drawn by 24 men. For a number of years in early Sydney the use of bullocks, in place of horses, was universal. They were used in shafts like horses, in teams with traces, and even for riding purposes. The road down BRICKFIELD HILL became populated within a year or two of the foundation of the Colony. In 1790 a road to the brick kiln was made, and Collins, in December 1793, says that 150 huts had been added since the departure of Governor Phillip, and that "the huts extended nearly to the brickfields whence others were building to meet them, and thus unite that district with the town." These brickfields were situated in the vicinity bounded roughly by George, Campbell, Elizabeth and Goulburn streets. On the corner of Goulburn street we have the large stores of Messrs. Anthony Hordern and Sons. The original Anthony Hordern arrived in Sydney in the early 'twenties of last century, and opened a coachbuilding works in King Street, on the site of the "Truth" offices; while his wife conducted a haberdashery shop alongside. Their two sons, Anthony and Lebbius, opened a shop on BRICKFIELD HILL, the site of which is incorporated in the present building. The business was afterwards removed to the Haymarket where Mr. Sam Hordern, son of Anthony No. 2, built up the huge concern of today. On July 10, 1901, a devastating fire swept through the Haymarket premises, unfortunately attended with loss of life, which, in two hours, destroyed half a million pounds worth of goods. The present premises were thereafter built.' Hope some of the above is helpful. Cheers Jennie W.A.

Hi Min, The National Library in Canberra has copies of the Freeman's Journal for that period and only yesterday I viewed copies of the 1828-1829 issues. The Library's website is www.nla.gov.au Search the Library's catalogue on their EResources link Ron Norton Canberra ----- Original Message ----- From: "Minuet" <minuet9@internode.on.net> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 11:17 PM Subject: Re: [PJ] Dublin trial records

I joined http://www.irishnewsarchive.com/ for 24 hours in the hopes of getting 1829/31 Freeman's Journal entries only to find once I got in that 1824-1835 are missing. I complained, and have been informed that these years are being reOCRed and will be online by June. cheers Min >It appears they are different sets of copies of Freeman's Journal, each with >gaps. I did a little test. > > >On the NLA site go to EResources (whose link is at the top right hand >corner of ther NLA website), then within "19th Century British Library >Newspapers" , and then Dublin Freeman's Journal. It has no/no coverage >between 1822 and 1829 inclusive. For 1837, it has only Jan and (most of) >Feb. > >NLA's microfilm reels have much of 1822, including Feb to June which I have >researched extensively. I have not checked later dates but it follows that >the microfilm reel is a different set from the British Library's set. > >On the other hand http://www.irishnewsarchive.com/ has all of 1822 and >seemingly most (possibly all days of publication) of 1837.

I have a copy of a map of Sydney dated 1836 that shows Brickfield Hill situated between Campbell Street and Bathurst Street, just south of the Old Burial Ground, before George Street takes over, and is sandwiched between the lower( southern ) part of Kent Street and Upper Pitt Street. Arnie

Hi all. I was recently checking a ship's muster from 1821 and noticed some age differences between the muster and the ship's indent, in some cases up to ten years difference. My question is where did the information for the musters come from? Was it supplied by the convicts themselves? Regards. Terry

Found on google My understanding of the origins of "Brickfielder" is that the southerly change generated clouds of dust from the brick pits at Brickfield Hill in the 1800's. This information is I think contained in Hunt's 1894 paper. Brickfield Hill was near the corner of Goulburn and Pitt Sts in Sydney ----- Original Message ----- From: Elizabeth Walker To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:11 PM Subject: Re: [PJ] PS re Brickfield Hill Hello John, Yes there were brickworks for a long time, in south Sydney, and one of the descendents of my Marjoram convicts worked there. I think those brickworks were still around in my childhood - they were just south of Newtown from memory. I think there would have been the odd footpaths made of bricks, but probably stone pavers were cheaper to use that manufactured bricks, before the surfaces we know now were invented. Unless they are in a reasonable amount of sunlight each day, brick paving gets very slippery in a short time, so it would not be safe for public paving where there were no gutters and drains. Liz Lake M. John wrote: > PS: > > When I tried looking into this myself (made just one trip to Sydney > archives but was unable to continue) I came upon what I think is a little > known fact .. that the "City" itself .. council or City commissioners (not > the State/Colonial government) ... also once had its own brickworks. This > was no doubt somewhere a bit futher out, towards Newtown/Camperdown, and > wasn't the Brickfields Hill (which by that time had probably been built > over?). > > This works was later disposed of, but when operating it apparently made > curved bricks .. of the type that the Tank Stream was eventually enclosed > by and put underground. > > I couldn't find any more on this other than that it was decided at some > point to sell it off, nor precisely where this brickmaking for the town or > city public works usage went on. Not sure if they ever used bricks for > public footpaths or for any other Council-controlled purpose apart from > drainage works. > > Gave up on that too, and flittered butterfly-like on to other more > succulent or more readily opening blooms. > > I'll keep this short as I realise convicts are not bricks and it is off > topic for anyone who is not mad keen on bricks. > > > Cheers, > > > > > > John > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Thanks Grahame, > > > The book is new but I think the statement that Brickfield Hill is George > Street between Town Hall and the bottom of the slope is old hat. > > I look forward to someone solving this little seeming enigma definitively, > although perhaps this is not possible and some history gets lost forever. > > Cheers, > > > > John > > > > > > > At 04:41 PM 25/02/2009 +1100, you wrote: > > >> Yes thanks John. I was part of that debate, and hence why I made the >> post drawing attention to this new book. >> >> cheers >> >> Grahame >> >> On 25/02/2009, at 4:27 PM, John wrote: >> >> >>> Hi Grahame, >>> >>> >>> This has been a topic of much former discussion on this list, as to >>> the >>> (original) location of the Brickfield Hill, which is a very much >>> mentioned >>> place in Sydney or Port Jackson history. >>> >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Database version: 5.11830 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1970 - Release Date: 02/24/09 13:35:00 E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Database version: 5.11830 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Database version: 5.11830 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

Hello John, Yes there were brickworks for a long time, in south Sydney, and one of the descendents of my Marjoram convicts worked there. I think those brickworks were still around in my childhood - they were just south of Newtown from memory. I think there would have been the odd footpaths made of bricks, but probably stone pavers were cheaper to use that manufactured bricks, before the surfaces we know now were invented. Unless they are in a reasonable amount of sunlight each day, brick paving gets very slippery in a short time, so it would not be safe for public paving where there were no gutters and drains. Liz Lake M. John wrote: > PS: > > When I tried looking into this myself (made just one trip to Sydney > archives but was unable to continue) I came upon what I think is a little > known fact .. that the "City" itself .. council or City commissioners (not > the State/Colonial government) ... also once had its own brickworks. This > was no doubt somewhere a bit futher out, towards Newtown/Camperdown, and > wasn't the Brickfields Hill (which by that time had probably been built > over?). > > This works was later disposed of, but when operating it apparently made > curved bricks .. of the type that the Tank Stream was eventually enclosed > by and put underground. > > I couldn't find any more on this other than that it was decided at some > point to sell it off, nor precisely where this brickmaking for the town or > city public works usage went on. Not sure if they ever used bricks for > public footpaths or for any other Council-controlled purpose apart from > drainage works. > > Gave up on that too, and flittered butterfly-like on to other more > succulent or more readily opening blooms. > > I'll keep this short as I realise convicts are not bricks and it is off > topic for anyone who is not mad keen on bricks. > > > Cheers, > > > > > > John > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Thanks Grahame, > > > The book is new but I think the statement that Brickfield Hill is George > Street between Town Hall and the bottom of the slope is old hat. > > I look forward to someone solving this little seeming enigma definitively, > although perhaps this is not possible and some history gets lost forever. > > Cheers, > > > > John > > > > > > > At 04:41 PM 25/02/2009 +1100, you wrote: > > >> Yes thanks John. I was part of that debate, and hence why I made the >> post drawing attention to this new book. >> >> cheers >> >> Grahame >> >> On 25/02/2009, at 4:27 PM, John wrote: >> >> >>> Hi Grahame, >>> >>> >>> This has been a topic of much former discussion on this list, as to >>> the >>> (original) location of the Brickfield Hill, which is a very much >>> mentioned >>> place in Sydney or Port Jackson history. >>> >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > >

Hi John, Unless Anthony Horderns moved several times, when I was a young woman and shopped there periodically, the Anthony Hordern's store in the mid 20th cent. was on the opposite side to the Town Hall and the Trocadero Ballroom - can't remember the name of the side street - could have been Goulburn St., but it was almost in the hollow before George St. heads back up the rise to Central Station. A few years ago before I moved here, I used to do voluntary work in the archives at Sydney Town Hall. If anyone wants help on old Sydney, I am sure there are a lot of records in their archives which could be quite useful. However, an appointment would have to be made to look at them. Liz at Lake Macquarie John wrote: > Hi Grahame, > > > This has been a topic of much former discussion on this list, as to the > (original) location of the Brickfield Hill, which is a very much mentioned > place in Sydney or Port Jackson history. > > The name bacame almost a district name eventually for, with its own post > office at one time I think .. and as you note, was then regarded as the > "bit of George Street from the Town Hall down to the bottom of the slope". > > However the famous Anthony Hordens which advertised as being on Brickfield > Hill once used to be on the opposite side of that low, on the Central side > slope. Their original emporium there burned down. > > They relocated up the other side of the rise, the Town Hall side. > > They maybe 'took the name' (and the hill metaphorically) with them when > they relocated? > > A case of pre-existing fame and advertising strategy "moving a hill" in the > popular mind ,, if indeed that were right as to what has transpired. > > There's also mentions that will be come across by anyone who searches on > this topic about the top of the hill being supposedly cut off and dumped in > the valley, whence the topography's all a bit less than it now than it > formerly was ... being the inference from that. > > But much of this may be reworked history and where the original brickfield > hill was, that the colony very early used in building Sydney Town from, > remains less than certain. > > I tend to more suspect that it was on the opposite side of the small > valley, the haymarkets valley, that the original hill or hill slope was > extensively stripped or quarried of clay, probably down to and just into > the underlying weathered shale. Later on though, additional extractive > site would have arisen, just to complicate things. > > I think it's pretty fair to say that the original records are not very > precise location-wise on this, and a general false shift in the > understanding of what was Brickfield Hill originally seems to have > occurred. The main barracks for the early brick carters was just alongside > the modern Central Railway complex, on the western side. > > There's no doubt that the original shallow quarrying was done down the > southern end of old Sydney Town, but whether it really took place on the > northern or southern side of the Haymarkets probably remains debatable. > > If someone has studied what all the excavations for the myriad tall > building that now exist thereabouts went down into then that should have > settled the question, by finding the traces, but I'm not aware if this has > been done. > > Cheers, > > > > John > > > > > At 04:45 PM 24/02/2009 +1100, you wrote: > > >> Hi Wal >> >> A very good book published last year on George Johnston and Easter >> Abrahams is Marine Officer - Convict Wife by Alan Roberts - cost >> about $30. Published by the Annandale Urban Research Association. >> >> It gives a very good balanced view of their family life and their >> children. Some other well known publications give biased views about >> some aspects of their lives. >> >> I am not related, one of my ancestors was involved in some land >> dealings that later involved George. >> >> And for those interested has a bit on the location of Brickfield >> Hill, saying it was the bit of George Street from the Town Hall down >> to the bottom of the slope. >> >> cheers >> >> Grahame >> >> On 24/02/2009, at 4:09 PM, walcarter wrote: >> >> >>> Hi Listers. >>> Trying to find details about Ester Abrahams per Prince of Wales >>> 1st fleet. Was she the same woman who married Major George >>> Johnson ? also any details of her sentence and where & when born. >>> Regards >>> Wal Carter >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT- >>> JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > >

PS: When I tried looking into this myself (made just one trip to Sydney archives but was unable to continue) I came upon what I think is a little known fact .. that the "City" itself .. council or City commissioners (not the State/Colonial government) ... also once had its own brickworks. This was no doubt somewhere a bit futher out, towards Newtown/Camperdown, and wasn't the Brickfields Hill (which by that time had probably been built over?). This works was later disposed of, but when operating it apparently made curved bricks .. of the type that the Tank Stream was eventually enclosed by and put underground. I couldn't find any more on this other than that it was decided at some point to sell it off, nor precisely where this brickmaking for the town or city public works usage went on. Not sure if they ever used bricks for public footpaths or for any other Council-controlled purpose apart from drainage works. Gave up on that too, and flittered butterfly-like on to other more succulent or more readily opening blooms. I'll keep this short as I realise convicts are not bricks and it is off topic for anyone who is not mad keen on bricks. Cheers, John ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thanks Grahame, The book is new but I think the statement that Brickfield Hill is George Street between Town Hall and the bottom of the slope is old hat. I look forward to someone solving this little seeming enigma definitively, although perhaps this is not possible and some history gets lost forever. Cheers, John At 04:41 PM 25/02/2009 +1100, you wrote: >Yes thanks John. I was part of that debate, and hence why I made the >post drawing attention to this new book. > >cheers > >Grahame > >On 25/02/2009, at 4:27 PM, John wrote: > >> >> >> Hi Grahame, >> >> >> This has been a topic of much former discussion on this list, as to >> the >> (original) location of the Brickfield Hill, which is a very much >> mentioned >> place in Sydney or Port Jackson history. >> > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Thanks Grahame, The book is new but I think the statement that Brickfield Hill is George Street between Town Hall and the bottom of the slope is old hat. I look forward to someone solving this little seeming enigma definitively, although perhaps this is not possible and some history gets lost forever. Cheers, John At 04:41 PM 25/02/2009 +1100, you wrote: >Yes thanks John. I was part of that debate, and hence why I made the >post drawing attention to this new book. > >cheers > >Grahame > >On 25/02/2009, at 4:27 PM, John wrote: > >> >> >> Hi Grahame, >> >> >> This has been a topic of much former discussion on this list, as to >> the >> (original) location of the Brickfield Hill, which is a very much >> mentioned >> place in Sydney or Port Jackson history. >> > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >