The old microfiche are available in the Cape Banks FHS library (Maroubra) http://www.capebanks.org.au/ - here is a breakdown of how the years were indexed: The 'old microfiche' * NSW BIRTHS Index - BAPTISMS 1788-1856, BIRTHS 1856-1905 pre 1856 Baptisms, pre 1856 1st supplementary index, pre 1856 2nd supplementary index, 1856-1869 by year, 1870-1879, 1880-1889, 1900-1905 by year. * NSW DEATHS Index - BURIALS pre 1856, DEATHS 1856-1905 pre 1856 Burials, pre 1856 1st supplementary index, pre 1856 2nd supplementary index, 1856-1869, 1870-1879, 1880-1889, 1890-1899, 1900-1905 by year. * NSW MARRIAGES Index - 1788-1856, 1856-1905 pre 1856, pre 1856 1st supplementary index, pre 1856 2nd supplementary index, 1856-59 by year (grooms & brides), 1860-69 by year (grooms & brides), 1870-79 by year (grooms & brides), 1880-81 by year (grooms & brides), 1882-83 by year, 1884 (grooms & brides), 1885-86 by year, 1887 (grooms & brides), 1888, 1889-95 (grooms & brides), 1896-99 by year, 1900-05 by year. The 'new microfiche' * NSW PIONEER Index 1788-1888 - BIRTHS, DEATHS & MARRIAGES consolidated index * NSW FEDERATION Index 1889-1918 - BIRTHS, DEATHS & MARRIAGES consolidated index * NSW BETWEEN THE WARS Index 1919-1945 - DEATHS & MARRIAGES (no births) consolidated index Regards,Maureen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lesley Uebel" <ckennedy@bigpond.net.au> Hi Rhonda The old set of microfiche is a copy of old typed records. They are organised in different year groups..... say 1805 - 1810 (cannot remember the exact years and they differ over the years) and you have to check each set of fiche. They are the fiche I started using a few decades ago before the new set was available and although are more time consuming to use they do contain more records AND they were not transcribed by people living overseas whose English is not their first language. My library have moved these fiche to the Stack about 10 years ago and perhaps other libraries have also done the same so many people new to research are not aware of them. regards Lesley Uebel

You may be interested in reading the history of the BDM records at: http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/historyRecords.htm Regards] Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Matthew Hall Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 9:48 AM To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PJ] Time capsule ....Fr Therry's papers and RCArchives I've heard of this problem before. Is there an active effort in NSW BDM to continue to collate parish records into the BDM? I guess the flip-side is to ask whether there are church archives actively 'holding out'? Or are they simply not resourced to dig out old records and hand them over? cheers, matt

Just to add to Lesley's remarks. I too have found information on these microfiche that is not in the newer records. Nothing that has helped pull down the brick walls (sigh) but family information never-the-less. So ask at your local libraries and have a look. Sandra S. > Hi Karen > > You may already be aware of this but there are more records on the OLD > microfiche than on the new microfiche, the CDs available and the BDMs available > on line. > > Regards > > Lesley Uebel _________________________________________________________________ Find out what’s new with your friends Download the new Windows Live Messenger http://download.live.com/

Hi Listers, Sadly this seems to be the same in Victoria as there seems to bevery many missing birth registrations in central Victoria c 1850-1870. People whose mariages and deaths give quite explicit information as to their places of birth!!!. regards Robyn in Wodonga ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lesley Uebel" <ckennedy@bigpond.net.au> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 10:52 PM Subject: Re: [PJ] Time capsule ....Fr Therry's papers and RCArchives > Hi Karen > > That's correct Karen - not all records were handed over. We can only > hope that > one day they may be > > > regards > Lesley Uebel > mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au > CLAIM A CONVICT > http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Karen > Hodges > Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 10:41 PM > To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PJ] Time capsule ....Fr Therry's papers and RCArchives > > > Hi Lesley > > I had not heard about index records going missing off new microfiche > and CD's except for birth records that no longer go up to 1918. So > thank you for mentioning this. > > My earlier comment comes from knowing that not all Church records were > copied and given to BDM at the time they were requested, for various > reasons. If a parish is missing a period of years off the index say > from when it opened , it can be worth while writing to the presbytery > and asking if the records exist and are held there or at a > neighbouring parish which may have cover the region at an earlier > time. Not all missing records were lost or damaged, some were just > not copied and sent in to be indexed. > > Karen > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Yes Lesley, I guess the key statement is "The task of reconciling the Early Church Records and amending the marriage registrations was never finalised. The Registry's records from these years are not complete and it can be worthwhile for genealogists to contact the relevant church to find details missing from a marriage certificate or in the case of a birth, a baptism record where there is no corresponding civil registration." It seems to intimate that NSW BDM will not be seeking to supplement their records. I was surprised to read there are avaliable microfiche with records not yet incorporated. cheers, matt > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:17:33 +1100 > From: "Lesley Uebel" <ckennedy@bigpond.net.au> > Subject: Re: [PJ] Time capsule ....Fr Therry's papers and RCArchives > To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <OGEELKEHANIHLMOJNLCJIEDKABAB.ckennedy@bigpond.net.au> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > You may be interested in reading the history of the BDM records at: > > > http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/historyRecords.htm > > >

Thankyou Lesley! So where did you find that out so quickly and apparently (sure it wasn't) easily? I haven't yet found out clearly how to get the record of his trial and any appeal. Lucky those whose ancestors where tried at the Old Bailey. Have looked at the Surrey History Centre website but confused. Any pointers? Regards, Kerrie. -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lesley Uebel Sent: Monday, 9 March 2009 10:02 PM To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PJ] time capsule Hi Kerrie Those convicts were all transported for different crimes although they were all convicted on the same day. Bellingham for stealing fowls Anderson for Burglary Cox for Housebreaking Hannon for picking pockets Pimm for Highway robbery

Hi Karen That's correct Karen - not all records were handed over. We can only hope that one day they may be regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Karen Hodges Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 10:41 PM To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PJ] Time capsule ....Fr Therry's papers and RCArchives Hi Lesley I had not heard about index records going missing off new microfiche and CD's except for birth records that no longer go up to 1918. So thank you for mentioning this. My earlier comment comes from knowing that not all Church records were copied and given to BDM at the time they were requested, for various reasons. If a parish is missing a period of years off the index say from when it opened , it can be worth while writing to the presbytery and asking if the records exist and are held there or at a neighbouring parish which may have cover the region at an earlier time. Not all missing records were lost or damaged, some were just not copied and sent in to be indexed. Karen

Hi Lesley I had not heard about index records going missing off new microfiche and CD's except for birth records that no longer go up to 1918. So thank you for mentioning this. My earlier comment comes from knowing that not all Church records were copied and given to BDM at the time they were requested, for various reasons. If a parish is missing a period of years off the index say from when it opened , it can be worth while writing to the presbytery and asking if the records exist and are held there or at a neighbouring parish which may have cover the region at an earlier time. Not all missing records were lost or damaged, some were just not copied and sent in to be indexed. Karen

What a great idea I would like to speak to John Jackson Ship Burrell 1 who married Sussanah Hall daughter of Thomas Hall who was drowned in middle harbour John and Sussannah had 3 boys and a daughter the last time I found any information was the birth of daughter Sarah born1842 Please John where did you your wife and 2 last children finished up? your descendant Nita Fraser

Hi Kerrie Those convicts were all transported for different crimes although they were all convicted on the same day. Bellingham for stealing fowls Anderson for Burglary Cox for Housebreaking Hannon for picking pockets Pimm for Highway robbery Regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Kerrie Pimm Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 8:40 PM To: Aus-Pt-Jackson-Convicts Subject: [PJ] time capsule If I could go back in time, I would visit Epsom in Surrey, England to the night of the ill-fated highway robbery in 1832 (unless of course, it was daylight robbery.) that my g-g-grandfather William Pimm and I think four others (George Bellingham, Nicholas Anderson, John Cox, John Shannon) were all tried and transported together for on the Mangles 6. Were your four ship-mates also your partners in the same crime? Were you really a widower as stated and did you have a son - was it in desperation for the welfare of your motherless son you committed the crime? Who was your wife and what become of your child? I would also like to visit you and see how was your life as a convict, and then come back 15 or so years later and see you as a butcher in Crown Street, Surrey Hills, Sydney now. I would love to meet you and hear who were your parents in England, and all the stories you could tell me of them. And your children - one of whom became my father's grandfather, John Pimm. That's what I would like to do, Kerrie.

If I could go back in time, I would visit Epsom in Surrey, England to the night of the ill-fated highway robbery in 1832 (unless of course, it was daylight robbery.) that my g-g-grandfather William Pimm and I think four others (George Bellingham, Nicholas Anderson, John Cox, John Shannon) were all tried and transported together for on the Mangles 6. Were your four ship-mates also your partners in the same crime? Were you really a widower as stated and did you have a son - was it in desperation for the welfare of your motherless son you committed the crime? Who was your wife and what become of your child? I would also like to visit you and see how was your life as a convict, and then come back 15 or so years later and see you as a butcher in Crown Street, Surrey Hills, Sydney now. I would love to meet you and hear who were your parents in England, and all the stories you could tell me of them. And your children - one of whom became my father's grandfather, John Pimm. That's what I would like to do, Kerrie.

Thank you Lesley I will check out the sets that are held by our local family history society and our local library. Thanks again Rhonda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lesley Uebel" <ckennedy@bigpond.net.au> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:40 PM Subject: Re: [PJ] Time capsule ....Fr Therry's papers and RCArchives > Hi Rhonda > > The old set of microfiche is a copy of old typed records. They are > organised in > different year groups..... say 1805 - 1810 (cannot remember the exact > years and > they differ over the years) and you have to check each set of fiche. > They are > the fiche I started using a few decades ago before the new set was > available and > although are more time consuming to use they do contain more records AND > they > were not transcribed by people living overseas whose English is not their > first > language. My library have moved these fiche to the Stack about 10 years > ago > and perhaps other libraries have also done the same so many people new to > research are not aware of them. > > regards > > > Lesley Uebel > mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au > CLAIM A CONVICT > http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Rhonda > Flowers > Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:28 PM > To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PJ] Time capsule ....Fr Therry's papers and RCArchives > > > Hi Lesley > > Thank you for this information but I have heard about this before and > wondered about this before. How do I know that I am looking at the OLD > microfiche set? Is there anything to distinguish this set from the NEW > microfiche set? > > Thank you in anticipation of your reply. > > Regards > Rhonda > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Rhonda The old set of microfiche is a copy of old typed records. They are organised in different year groups..... say 1805 - 1810 (cannot remember the exact years and they differ over the years) and you have to check each set of fiche. They are the fiche I started using a few decades ago before the new set was available and although are more time consuming to use they do contain more records AND they were not transcribed by people living overseas whose English is not their first language. My library have moved these fiche to the Stack about 10 years ago and perhaps other libraries have also done the same so many people new to research are not aware of them. regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Rhonda Flowers Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:28 PM To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PJ] Time capsule ....Fr Therry's papers and RCArchives Hi Lesley Thank you for this information but I have heard about this before and wondered about this before. How do I know that I am looking at the OLD microfiche set? Is there anything to distinguish this set from the NEW microfiche set? Thank you in anticipation of your reply. Regards Rhonda

Hi Lesley Thank you for this information but I have heard about this before and wondered about this before. How do I know that I am looking at the OLD microfiche set? Is there anything to distinguish this set from the NEW microfiche set? Thank you in anticipation of your reply. Regards Rhonda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lesley Uebel" <ckennedy@bigpond.net.au> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [PJ] Time capsule ....Fr Therry's papers and RCArchives > > Hi Karen > > You may already be aware of this but there are more records on the OLD > microfiche than on the new microfiche, the CDs available and the BDMs > available > on line. > > Regards > > Lesley Uebel > mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au > CLAIM A CONVICT > http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html > > > >

Hello again to Lesley and the List I just want to thank everyone that has had input on this thread. It is about time that St Mary's allowed for research in the inner sanctum through an Archivist. A researcher is not out to blame and shame they just want to find the name. Jenny

Hi Karen You may already be aware of this but there are more records on the OLD microfiche than on the new microfiche, the CDs available and the BDMs available on line. Regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Karen Hodges Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 6:47 PM To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PJ] Time capsule ....Fr Therry's papers and RCArchives Its a shame these records have not been extracted and given to Birth Deaths and Marriages, to add to their index. I wonder how many other church records are out there that did not go to BDM at the time. It would be wonderful if the Government and Churches could work together now and add missing records to the over all indexes, for these early days of Australia. Thanks for posting this find to the list Karen

I've heard of this problem before. Is there an active effort in NSW BDM to continue to collate parish records into the BDM? I guess the flip-side is to ask whether there are church archives actively 'holding out'? Or are they simply not resourced to dig out old records and hand them over? cheers, matt ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > From: "Lesley Uebel" <ckennedy@bigpond.net.au> > Subject: Re: [PJ] Time capsule ....Fr Therry's papers and RCArchives > > Hi Karen > > That's correct Karen - not all records were handed over. We can only hope > that > one day they may be > > > regards > Lesley Uebel > >

Its a shame these records have not been extracted and given to Birth Deaths and Marriages, to add to their index. I wonder how many other church records are out there that did not go to BDM at the time. It would be wonderful if the Government and Churches could work together now and add missing records to the over all indexes, for these early days of Australia. Thanks for posting this find to the list Karen On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Frank Murray <fcmurr@gmail.com> wrote: > As one, among others,  who has been subjected to "the experience" at the > door to RC Archives, I doubt if the Government is the reason for Catholic > Church records not being available to Jenny. > > As for "Fr Therry's papers", I examined the records of the marriages > conducted by the various priests, incl Fr Therry,  on Reel SAG 6 (St Mary's > records) at Mitchell Library (and SAG itself). The witnesses and the 1829 > date of my g.g.grandparents' 1830 marriage were suspect so I examined the > Mitchell Library Reels of Fr Therrys papers. I am not sure if you have > looked at these...extensive bits of loose paper, back of envelopes, etc,  in > very rough date order with Fr Therry's notations about BDM, church affairs, > donations to the building fund, building accounts etc. There I found, in Fr > Therry's hand a correct record of the marriage, date, location, occupation > of the groom,  and witnesses. (Reel CY806) > > Furthermore the  1835 marriage record of another forbear was shown in NSW > BDM records as in "C of E Cabramatta". I found the correct record on one of > Fr Therry's scraps of paper as having occurred in St Mary's, Sydney with > dates , location, witnesses and a "promise" to pay a fee. > > The folder outlining the many Therry reels is on the shelf, knee height, at > the far end of the Mitchell reading room. But ask at the desk if you can't > see it. > Frank M.

As one, among others, who has been subjected to "the experience" at the door to RC Archives, I doubt if the Government is the reason for Catholic Church records not being available to Jenny. As for "Fr Therry's papers", I examined the records of the marriages conducted by the various priests, incl Fr Therry, on Reel SAG 6 (St Mary's records) at Mitchell Library (and SAG itself). The witnesses and the 1829 date of my g.g.grandparents' 1830 marriage were suspect so I examined the Mitchell Library Reels of Fr Therrys papers. I am not sure if you have looked at these...extensive bits of loose paper, back of envelopes, etc, in very rough date order with Fr Therry's notations about BDM, church affairs, donations to the building fund, building accounts etc. There I found, in Fr Therry's hand a correct record of the marriage, date, location, occupation of the groom, and witnesses. (Reel CY806) Furthermore the 1835 marriage record of another forbear was shown in NSW BDM records as in "C of E Cabramatta". I found the correct record on one of Fr Therry's scraps of paper as having occurred in St Mary's, Sydney with dates , location, witnesses and a "promise" to pay a fee. The folder outlining the many Therry reels is on the shelf, knee height, at the far end of the Mitchell reading room. But ask at the desk if you can't see it. Frank M. > for -----Original Message----- > From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kath > Connors > Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 6:59 AM > To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PJ] Time Capsule Daniel CANVIN > > Elizabeth, have you ever read Father Therry history? on horse back etc in > all kinds of weather it is a wonder any of his records survived. > I worked voluntary at St Mary's 1968 & 1969 and we battled in those days > for > > voluntary workers., the government rules do not allow you access these > days. > Our convict ancestors Thomas Collison & Margaret Hughes were also given > permission in to marry in Sydney 1832 and no marriage records exist. > Kath > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Convict Trail" <convicttrail@bigpond.com> > To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> > Cc: <jennygirl@unwired.com.au> > Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 8:08 AM > Subject: Re: [PJ] Time Capsule Daniel CANVIN > > > > Hi Jenny, > > Re Daniel Calvin, this is not the first wedding preformed by Father > > Therry, > > that has not been found. My ancestor Elizabeth(Betsy)Sinnott was married > > to > > Richard Dwyer by Father Therry but again no evidence exists. I know this > > marriage happened as it was certified as having happened on a application > > to > > remove Elizabeth's daughter from the Orphan Asylum. The application for > > permission to marry together with two other exists but not the evidence > of > > the marriage. > > > > It would be interesting to how many of his marriages are missing from the > > records that were supplied later to the Register General. Was a book lost > > or > > were just a few not recorded or was a page or so lost from the book or > did > > the book get wet in the saddle bag and some pages become illegible? > > > > > I would like to ask my 3x great grandfather Daniel CANVIN to please put > > > down > > his anvil and come and sit down quietly under a tree on the Badgery's > > property at Majors Creek and tell me why: > > > > Although I have his permission to marry document dated 5 Aug 1826, I > can't > > find a marriage. I would tell him that I have been through all the > records > > BMD, LDS, Mutch Index, Fr Therry's Papers, I have tried to scale the wall > > and get into the inner sanctum at St Mary's Cathedral however Pauline > > tells > > me that I can't have access to their files. I would say that I have found > > reference to his marriage in a book by Kieran Sheedy and I have written > to > > Kieran Sheedy in Ireland asking for the source however I didn't get a > > reply. > > The book goes on to tell me that the marriage was performed by Fr Therry > > and > > that Mary Dwyer acted as one of the witnesses. Now that has had to come > > from > > somewhere. > > > >

Hello Frank Thank you so much for the informative information re. Fr Therry's Papers. Sometime last year I did go to the Mitchell and asked at the far end of the reading room for the Fr Therry Papers. I was given a reel however there was no evidence of the marriage around 1824. I had no idea that there are many reels. I will high tail it into the Mitchell this week and along with your instructions knee high I WILL find the marriage Many thanks for a wonderful slice of hope Jenny Frank wrote> As one, among others, who has been subjected to "the experience" at the door to RC Archives, I doubt if the Government is the reason for Catholic Church records not being available to Jenny. As for "Fr Therry's papers", I examined the records of the marriages conducted by the various priests, incl Fr Therry, on Reel SAG 6 (St Mary's records) at Mitchell Library (and SAG itself). The witnesses and the 1829 date of my g.g.grandparents' 1830 marriage were suspect so I examined the Mitchell Library Reels of Fr Therrys papers. I am not sure if you have looked at these...extensive bits of loose paper, back of envelopes, etc, in very rough date order with Fr Therry's notations about BDM, church affairs, donations to the building fund, building accounts etc. There I found, in Fr Therry's hand a correct record of the marriage, date, location, occupation of the groom, and witnesses. (Reel CY806) Furthermore the 1835 marriage record of another forbear was shown in NSW BDM records as in "C of E Cabramatta". I found the correct record on one of Fr Therry's scraps of paper as having occurred in St Mary's, Sydney with dates , location, witnesses and a "promise" to pay a fee. The folder outlining the many Therry reels is on the shelf, knee height, at the far end of the Mitchell reading room. But ask at the desk if you can't see it. Frank M.