Hi Jenny, Frank and list Just wanted to say I have dealt with St Mary's back in the 1980's I found them very helpful. I think what has happen, Genealogy is so popular now that it is probably hard for the Church to find the time to fit in the enquiries with the normal running of a parish. The days of a watchful eye, of an archivist are more likely behind us, due to numbers, in places like St Mary's. "Furthermore the 1835 marriage record of another forbear was shown in NSW BDM records as in "C of E Cabramatta". I found the correct record on one of Fr Therry's scraps of paper as having occurred in St Mary's, Sydney with dates , location, witnesses and a "promise" to pay a fee." Frank while looking back at an old letter from St Mary's, I found another letter from St Thomas Anglican Church Archivist written 1985 It said " It is true that all baptismal, marriage and death records were kept by the C of E until 1856 but nearly all entries to my knowledge are on the Baptismal Microfiche Index pre 1856. This applies to all religious denominations" This made me wonder about the marriage you found above. Preformed in St Mary's maybe a copy had to be sent to the C of E to be recorded. If all records were suppose to passed throught the C of E, then this might explain why some are missing, that might be found in their own church. Karen > It is about time that St Mary's allowed for research in the inner > sanctum through an Archivist. A researcher is not out to blame > and shame they just want to find the name. > > Jenny >

Hi Russell Oh! I wish I had your luck! It didn't work for me when I contacted the catholic church in Bathurst but then again Bathurst catholic church is now a Cathedral isn't it, so that could have something to do with it maybe. I have had some luck with some smaller catholic churches so I never give up trying. Thanks for keeping my hopes alive. Regards Rhonda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russell" <russellkel@optusnet.com.au> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:33 PM Subject: Re: [PJ] Time capsule ....Fr Therry's papers and RCArchives > In my experience the catholic church have their records in various > places - not just St Mary's, Sydney with the gate guardian from hell. > I rang a church in Naranderra NSW and the old preist said "just a > moment" and came back with a 105-year-old book of marriage records that > were different to the NSW BDM info! > Also I found a repository in Toowoomba (the Marion Centre archives) that > had baptism info that cannot be found anywhere else. > My advice - ring the church in the town where your ancestors were, you > may be surprised. > > Russell >

Hi Jeanette. Lots of information on Mary Bateman per "Lady Juliana" Check out these. http://www.historyaustralia.org.au/twconvic/tiki-index.php If you look for George Guest per "Alexander" 1788 you will find Mary. http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/forms/formMain.jsp This will give you her court record. I believe George and Mary produced six children all on NI. I'm not related, just like early convict history. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeanette Brentnall" <junglebooks01@bigpond.com> To: <AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [PJ] convict Mary BATEMAN > Hi Lesley and others on the list > I've been reading the posts on female convicts and wonder whether any > genealogy has been done to trace the descendants of Mary BATEMAN? > I'm sure it has, but I've only just realised she might be one of mine. > many thanks, > Jeanette > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1991 - Release Date: 03/09/09 07:14:00

Hello, Maree of Hobart, Our concerns seem removed from the Port Jackson convicts theme. In response to your posting on 7/3/09, I report that there were members of various Fogarty families including mine in Melbourne in 1866. I have emailed you about my mob plus some Melbourne Fogartys who came to Sydney from Ireland in 1839 as bounty immigrants by the ship "China". I am not aware of any Port Jackson convict in my ancestry. I will henceforth keep my remarks off the list. . Regards, Andrew Fogarty

Hi Michelle Just for a bit of fun. !!! Do you have red fiche, blue fiche or black fiche!? Sorry all...... but I couldn't resist it as the book is so familiar to me. I think I spend too much time reading stories to my grandchildren! But seriously thank you for the posting about what Hawkesbury holds in the library. Cheers Rhonda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michelle Nichols" <michelle_nichols@hotmail.com> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 5:51 PM Subject: [PJ] Old microfiche > > We have all of the different versions of the NSW BDM indexes (old fiche, > new fiche..sounds like a Dr SUess rhyme...also CD-ROM & web) at Hawkesbury > Library, 300 George Street Windsor, see > www.hawkesbury.nsw.gov.au/library.html times etc. > Cheers > Michelle Nichols > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Do you think Ann and Mary were related to William Hutchinson and Abraham Hutchinson. William's wife came to Sydney from Norfolk Island to settle her estate in 1805. Regards Betty Candy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gladys" <glad1@bigpond.net.au> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [PJ] Time travel - Mary Hutchinson > Hello List > > I would love to ask my GGG grandmother Mary Hutchinson per "Mary Ann" > 1791, > about the deaths of her mother Ann, who had also arrived on the "Mary Ann" > 1791 (both found guilty of plying a woman with gin and robbing her) and > the > man James Weavers whom she was living with. > James Weavers and Richard Porter, to whom Ann was married, both men had > land > grants at Kissing Point. They had arrived on the same ship "Surprise"in > 1790. > Ann died on 3rd April 1805 at Kissing Point, James Weavers died one day > later on 4th April 1805 also at Kissing Point. > > Mary & Richard Porter were later married on 8th June 1811. > > Gladys at Coogee > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1990 - Release Date: 03/08/09 17:17:00

Maybe this will help ( source " The Catholic Story " by B T Doyle and J A Morley 1953 ) Catholic Church in Australia : When the First Fleet sailed to Australia to set up its first penal colony, the only religion approved for the colony was the Established Church of England. An English Catholic priest, Fr Thomas Walsh had requested permission in England to be allowed to accompany the fleet to minister to the convicts, but that request was never answered. On January 26, 1788, two French ships joined Captain Arthur Phillip's First Fleet in Botany Bay. On board the French ships were two Catholic priests, Abbé Jean-Andre Monges and Fr Claude-Francois Joseph Louis Receveur, a Franciscan monk. Fr Receveur acted as chaplain, naturalist and astronomer for the French expedition. Fr Receveur died on February 17, having been wounded by local warriors in the Samoan Islands. He was the first Catholic priest to be buried on Australian soil and his grave forms part of the "La Perouse monument" at Botany Bay, which has been given in perpetuity to France. There is reasonable evidence to suggest that Abbé Monges would have celebrated Mass on Board the ships anchored at Botany Bay - the first Mass celebrated on Australian territory. The penal settlement of New South Wales had no resident Catholic priest and no Catholic Church when it was established in 1788, and this did not change until early in the next century. Catholics were obliged to attend the Anglican Sunday service, and their daily rations would be reduced if they did not. On November 30, 1792, five Catholic settlers at Parramatta petitioned Governor Phillip in an attempt to secure an official Catholic priest for the colony. That petition was fruitless, so there were still no facilities for Catholic life and worship - For all ceremonies such as baptisms, marriages and burials, Catholics had to turn to the Anglican chaplains or do without. In fact there were three priests amongst the convicts - Frs James Harold, James Dixon and Peter O'Neil. They were all Irishmen transported to Australia because of their supposed roles in the Irish Rebellion of 1798. Because they were convicts, they had no official status and were not permitted to carry out any priestly duties. By 1802, there were more than 1700 Catholics in Australia but this burgeoning community still had no active Catholic priest. Finally on April 19, 1803, the Governor authorized Fr Dixon to publicly celebrate a Mass. The first 'officially-sanctioned' Mass took place on May 15, 1803. It is believed to have been celebrated at the Rocks for a congregation of convicts. The first Mass is commemorated in a stained glass window located in St Mary's Cathedral. After numerous requests and a Commission of Enquiry into the conditions of the Colony, in 1819 two Priests were officially authorised by the colonial government to minister to the Catholics of the New South Wales. >From this time until 1834 the entire Australian mainland and the island of Tasmania was a distant outpost of the Vicariate Apostolic of Mauritius. On 12th May, 1834, the Vicariate Apostolic of New Holland was erected and Father John Bede Polding, an English Benedictine was appointed as Vicar Apostolic with jurisdiction over what is now the Commonwealth of Australia. On 28th February, 1842, the Diocese of Sydney was erected with Bishop Polding as its Residential Bishop. Some weeks later (14th April, 1842) Sydney was made a Metropolitan See, with Hobart and Adelaide as suffragans. At that time, the Archdiocese of Sydney included the whole of the Eastern portion of the continent, comprising what are now the states of New South Wales, Victoria and Queensland. Arnie

We have all of the different versions of the NSW BDM indexes (old fiche, new fiche..sounds like a Dr SUess rhyme...also CD-ROM & web) at Hawkesbury Library, 300 George Street Windsor, see www.hawkesbury.nsw.gov.au/library.html times etc. Cheers Michelle Nichols

Thanks Arnie, One of the 5 petitioners was Joseph Morley (1st Fleet). The co-author of this article, (Dr) J A Morley is a descendant of Joseph Morley (2nd Fleet) and distant relative of my wife. This Dr Joseph A Morley was 90-something a couple of years ago and still breathing. He is (was?) a mine of information on the Morley family history and Catholic Church. He holds a letter sent to Joseph (2nd Fleet) written to him by his uncle when he languished on a hulk in the Thames in about 1790 - what a treasure! Regards, Russell fletch wrote: >Maybe this will help ( source " The Catholic Story " by B T Doyle and J A Morley 1953 ) > > > >Catholic Church in Australia : > >When the First Fleet sailed to Australia to set up its first penal colony, the only religion approved for the colony was the Established Church of England. An English Catholic priest, Fr Thomas Walsh had requested permission in England to be allowed to accompany the fleet to minister to the convicts, but that request was never answered. > > >... > >On November 30, 1792, five Catholic settlers at Parramatta petitioned Governor Phillip in an attempt to secure an official Catholic priest for the colony. That petition was fruitless, so there were still no facilities for Catholic life and worship - For all ceremonies such as baptisms, marriages and burials, Catholics had to turn to the Anglican chaplains or do without. > > >

In my experience the catholic church have their records in various places - not just St Mary's, Sydney with the gate guardian from hell. I rang a church in Naranderra NSW and the old preist said "just a moment" and came back with a 105-year-old book of marriage records that were different to the NSW BDM info! Also I found a repository in Toowoomba (the Marion Centre archives) that had baptism info that cannot be found anywhere else. My advice - ring the church in the town where your ancestors were, you may be surprised. Russell Karen Hodges wrote: >Its a shame these records have not been extracted and given to Birth >Deaths and Marriages, to add to their index. > >I wonder how many other church records are out there that did not go >to BDM at the time. It would be wonderful if the Government and >Churches could work together now and add missing records to the over >all indexes, for these early days of Australia. > >Thanks for posting this find to the list > >Karen > >

Hello, Re church records, I'm not an archivist or anthing like it but I would still like to be let into the inner sanctum of Catholic records nonetheless. I'm interested in the claimed first place where mass was said and which may have had place/room for priest hiding - and also started a Catholic people cementery (that still exists) on private property despite the Governor's decree not to bury on one's own land but in the general Anglican cemeteries designated for burials. That place was supposedly McCarthy's farm at Castlereagh. Perhaps the Church does not have much records on that as officially it is NOT the first place of Catholic mass (and if it was then it was done illegally by a priest who was a convict). "Local" history however maintains that this was so. The second place of interest to me is the Village of St Anne, a would-be Catholic village set up near the "Bark Huts" on the Cooks River near Liverpool Road, present day Strathfield. That history is later history and is sure to be somewhere in the official records. I'm also interested in finding Salvation Army records and if anyone has an email address I might write to about that I would appeciate it. Send me it to me off list if you like. The Salvation Army interst is in regard to my ancestors who were strong Methodists and Salvation Army, e.g. viz. http://www.geo-sites.zoomshare.com/files/augusta-worboys.htm I suspect that maybe some of them met/associated at the Glory Hall, Salvation Army, Penrith. Best Regards, John At 02:27 PM 10/03/2009 +1000, you wrote: >Hi List, > >My past experience with a particular church (NOT St. Mary's) has shown that >the church I was dealing with considered their records were still the >property of the church and that they had been given to the NSW BDMs as a >gesture of goodwill but would always remain the property of that church. >That particular church quite emphatically stated that the BDM records held >by that church remain the property of the church and always will do so. They >also considered that the church was exempt from the provisions of any >Copyright Acts. >I found this to be a rather disappointing attitude which indicates to me >that this church believes they are above the law of the land. I understand >the value of historical material and the need to preserve such material for >posterity. It would be interesting to know if the churches are archiving and >professionally preserving any historical material in their possession. >Cheers, >John Caling >Currimundi, Qld. > >-----Original Message----- >From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com >[mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jenny T >Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 9:07 AM >To: AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS@rootsweb.com >Subject: [PJ] Fr Therry's Papers Thread > >Hello again to Lesley and the List > >I just want to thank everyone that has had input on this thread. > >It is about time that St Mary's allowed for research in the inner sanctum >through an Archivist. A researcher is not out to blame and shame they just >want to find the name. > >Jenny

Sometimes messages are sent to lists in error and the best thing to do is delete them. With this latest one we not only had the original one sent to the list, but since then the *whole* message has been sent back to the list 3 more times. I do keep an eye on what comes through and this one was just a simple error. Regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au

Hi Lesley & List Congratulations on 8th birthday. My convict is Solomon Jackson per Lady Nugent 1835, he was convicted in Salford, Lanc September 1834 in conjunction with James Greenwood on 2 counts. I would like to ask Solomon when he died, where he is buried, who his parents were and does he have any siblings. My deductions are that he died between February and October 1851 as his daughter Mary Ann was born 19 October 1851 and baptised on 20 November 1851 the same day that his wife Ann (nee Jones) remarried as a widow and she then disappeared from all records. Lynne Central Coast NSW

Hi Listers, I would like to go back to before their trials, George DUDLEY (Coromandel II-1820) by the Middlesex Jury at The Old Bailey and Sarah LYNCHEY (Mary III-1835) by Deemster Christian (a relo of the Bounty chap) on the Isle of Man. I have only possibilities of there lives and kin before their trials nothing definite, complicated by Sarah probably going to the IoM from County Down. Sarah also brought 2 daughters and a son with her to Sydney. I know only one daughter, Mary Ann, my GG grandmother who married George DUDLEY -- eventually. It would be great to sit down with them and talk about their previous lives, and to tell them of some of the exciting things their descendents in this new land have done. Cheers Peter Melbourne

This must be a misdirected email I will ignore it Ron @ Pindimar ----- Original Message ----- From: "christine" <christine@romteckgrid.com.au> To: <ingrid.taylor@det.nsw.edu>; <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 12:23 PM Subject: [PJ] Fw: Coffs Harbour Campus > Ingird. > > I am forwarding you a copy of the email sent to Jon Ingram on Monday 19 > Jan 2009 regarding the false alarm that was invoiced Inv 45914. Todate we > have received no further communications from Jon. Please read and follow > up on this matter. > > Christine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sean Joseph > To: CMH Christine Harmsworth > Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 12:12 PM > Subject: Fw: Coffs Harbour Campus > > > Chris, > > Unfortunately we did not reply to Ingrid as we had the file waiting for > Jon to lodge a wavier claim per our detailed email to Jon below. > > Regards, > > Sean > > Sean E Joseph > Managing Director > Romteck Grid Pty Ltd > T 02 9666 1555 > F 02 9316 9950 > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sean Joseph > To: jon.ingram@det.nsw.edu.au > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 12:52 PM > Subject: Coffs Harbour Campus > > > Jon, > > You asked us to investigate regarding false fire alarm charges imposed by > the NSW Fire Brigades in 2008 for fire alarms on following dates: > > 04/10;19/10;25/10; & 29/10 > 06/11;15/11; and 21/11 > > Our Network Manager has checked the monitoring records: - > > The installed ASE was operating correctly and had been doing so for years. > > On 02 October 2008 between 1206 hours and 1238 hours someone on site > carried out works to the FIP. The ASE reported four power resets and an > number of wiring tampers / resistors and fire alarms. > > Thereafter, as a result of these works, the ASE was affected by whatever > works had been done to the FIP. The FIP alarm contacts were being affected > by voltage and causing transmission of input isolates and fire alarms to > the ASE. > > When Matthew became aware of the situation he programmed an ASE for > normally 'Open' alarm contacts instead of the usual normally 'Closed' > contacts. The reason is we have found using normally open helps to > overcome FIP problems, especially voltage problems. > > Kerry of Kelso Fire installed the specially programmed ASE in place of the > existing ASE and this has worked with nil fire alarms since. > > This situation did not arise due to an ASE problem and our involvement was > basically to 'insulate' the ASE from the FIP problems. > > What we submit you should do is send us a simple fax instructing us to > lodge False Alarm Wavier applications with the NSWFB on the basis: > > a.. A problem developed with the site FIP > b.. You took action to stop the false alarms by getting Romteck Grid to > provide a new ASE and getting Kelso Fire to carry out works including the > installation of the new ASE with new alarm relays. > c.. The works have been successful and no false fire alarms since. > > Regards, > > Sean > > Sean E Joseph > Managing Director > Romteck Grid Pty Ltd > T 02 9666 1555 > F 02 9316 9950 > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.7/1983 - Release Date: 03/04/09 > 07:41:00 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi List, My past experience with a particular church (NOT St. Mary's) has shown that the church I was dealing with considered their records were still the property of the church and that they had been given to the NSW BDMs as a gesture of goodwill but would always remain the property of that church. That particular church quite emphatically stated that the BDM records held by that church remain the property of the church and always will do so. They also considered that the church was exempt from the provisions of any Copyright Acts. I found this to be a rather disappointing attitude which indicates to me that this church believes they are above the law of the land. I understand the value of historical material and the need to preserve such material for posterity. It would be interesting to know if the churches are archiving and professionally preserving any historical material in their possession. Cheers, John Caling Currimundi, Qld. -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jenny T Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 9:07 AM To: AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS@rootsweb.com Subject: [PJ] Fr Therry's Papers Thread Hello again to Lesley and the List I just want to thank everyone that has had input on this thread. It is about time that St Mary's allowed for research in the inner sanctum through an Archivist. A researcher is not out to blame and shame they just want to find the name. Jenny

Just had a check on the microfiche in my library. The boottom righthand corner of the newer fiche is dated with day, month year etc. 1993 on the ones I looked at. Robyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandra Sangster" <sandsang@hotmail.com> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 10:10 AM Subject: [PJ] Old Microfiche Just to add to Lesley's remarks. I too have found information on these microfiche that is not in the newer records. Nothing that has helped pull down the brick walls (sigh) but family information never-the-less. So ask at your local libraries and have a look. Sandra S. > Hi Karen > > You may already be aware of this but there are more records on the OLD > microfiche than on the new microfiche, the CDs available and the BDMs > available > on line. > > Regards > > Lesley Uebel _________________________________________________________________ Find out what’s new with your friends Download the new Windows Live Messenger http://download.live.com/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Kerrie No, it didn't take me long because I have transcribed them. William Pimm was tried at the Assize court so the trial details are available from the National Archives at Kew (UK) regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-pt-jackson-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Kerrie Pimm Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 7:30 AM To: aus-pt-jackson-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PJ] time capsule William Pimm Thankyou Lesley! So where did you find that out so quickly and apparently (sure it wasn't) easily? I haven't yet found out clearly how to get the record of his trial and any appeal. Lucky those whose ancestors where tried at the Old Bailey. Have looked at the Surrey History Centre website but confused. Any pointers? Regards, Kerrie.

Hi Lesley and others on the list I've been reading the posts on female convicts and wonder whether any genealogy has been done to trace the descendants of Mary BATEMAN? I'm sure it has, but I've only just realised she might be one of mine. many thanks, Jeanette