Home | Genealogical Society of the Northern Territory Inc <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.gsnt.org.au_&d=DwIBaQ&c=kKqjBR9KKWaWpMhASkPbOg&r=YFun9vvvShGac7kGpuf_2DnEB5abo6nIppcjWSsStJk&m=5iX-ggQqbhH1bwUbE9jQAQ6v2w8rmOOHUmKkYvWHZPk&s=MI3rYPdLhHRfsCnSZOXMjb-LFwP0UGXpo1LOVGGcB3M&e=> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.gsnt.org.au_&d=DwIBaQ&c=kKqjBR9KKWaWpMhASkPbOg&r=YFun9vvvShGac7kGpuf_2DnEB5abo6nIppcjWSsStJk&m=5iX-ggQqbhH1bwUbE9jQAQ6v2w8rmOOHUmKkYvWHZPk&s=MI3rYPdLhHRfsCnSZOXMjb-LFwP0UGXpo1LOVGGcB3M&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.google.com.au_search-3Fq-3DNT-2BFamily-2BHistory-2Bsociety-26oq-3DNT-2BFamily-2BHistory-2Bsociety-26aqs-3Dchrome..69i57.15247j0j7-26sourceid-3Dchrome-26ie-3DUTF-2D8-23&d=DwIBaQ&c=kKqjBR9KKWaWpMhASkPbOg&r=YFun9vvvShGac7kGpuf_2DnEB5abo6nIppcjWSsStJk&m=5iX-ggQqbhH1bwUbE9jQAQ6v2w8rmOOHUmKkYvWHZPk&s=g5Oob1gVQGzXu2xMLVX5znPFOyW3r4Tau0rz90uWRVc&e=> 1. <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webcache.googleusercontent.com_search-3Fq-3Dcache-3ATk2-5FAtr-2DgjwJ-3Awww.gsnt.org.au_-2B-26cd-3D1-26hl-3Den-26ct-3Dclnk-26gl-3Dau&d=DwIBaQ&c=kKqjBR9KKWaWpMhASkPbOg&r=YFun9vvvShGac7kGpuf_2DnEB5abo6nIppcjWSsStJk&m=5iX-ggQqbhH1bwUbE9jQAQ6v2w8rmOOHUmKkYvWHZPk&s=B_t__0Beb8cUPUwjPmrdhJUnwMldYv1LxORdmZg5s7A&e=> 2. <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.google.com.au_search-3Fsafe-3Dactive-26q-3Drelated-3Awww.gsnt.org.au_-2BNT-2BFamily-2BHistory-2Bsociety-26tbo-3D1-26sa-3DX-26ved-3D2ahUKEwjh99-5FRgoXdAhXHIIgKHYwODVUQHzAAegQIARAF&d=DwIBaQ&c=kKqjBR9KKWaWpMhASkPbOg&r=YFun9vvvShGac7kGpuf_2DnEB5abo6nIppcjWSsStJk&m=5iX-ggQqbhH1bwUbE9jQAQ6v2w8rmOOHUmKkYvWHZPk&s=kI3dpUcthQerSMgzvTkm5RUNr4HufPxPYhiHnMa4nQE&e=> OUR LIBRARY is located at Unit 4, 84 Smith Street Darwin NT (opposite the ... genealogical and family history research; to further the study of genealogy by the ... 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The Historical ... A voluntary organisation, membership is open to those individuals, families or institutions interested in history. To join ... Historical Society of NT Activities. On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 1:54 PM <mosessue@tpg.com.au> wrote: > Greetings, > > > > I have just received a death certificate for one Arthur Daly the son of > Arthur Daly who claims to be born at Lake Nash N.T. I do not know if this > refers to Lake Nash Station, or Alpurrurulam, known as Lake Nash, the town. > > > > He would have been born about 1902. His wife was not on the death > certificate, but she was believed to be a full blood Aboriginal and all > their children were born at Barclay Station, Camooweal, Queensland. > > > > The question is, how does one search records if you are not in the NT. Is > there a look-up system ? Do you have to employ a researcher ? or is there a > website I've yet to find :) > > > > Any answers would be greatly received. > > > > Teddy > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__bit.ly_rootswebpref&d=DwIBaQ&c=kKqjBR9KKWaWpMhASkPbOg&r=YFun9vvvShGac7kGpuf_2DnEB5abo6nIppcjWSsStJk&m=5iX-ggQqbhH1bwUbE9jQAQ6v2w8rmOOHUmKkYvWHZPk&s=r3TwZw6UMbMuOiZfXiLkCYbBIFjG5YbbbrpDMaHPjpo&e= > Unsubscribe and Archives > https://mailinglists.rootsweb.com/listindexes/search/aus-nt > Privacy Statement: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ancstry.me_2JWBOdY&d=DwIBaQ&c=kKqjBR9KKWaWpMhASkPbOg&r=YFun9vvvShGac7kGpuf_2DnEB5abo6nIppcjWSsStJk&m=5iX-ggQqbhH1bwUbE9jQAQ6v2w8rmOOHUmKkYvWHZPk&s=EmfgnUzAghy32MkN4tRwnheqhIQywJEscjTwneAyhoc&e= Terms and Conditions: > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ancstry.me_2HDBym9&d=DwIBaQ&c=kKqjBR9KKWaWpMhASkPbOg&r=YFun9vvvShGac7kGpuf_2DnEB5abo6nIppcjWSsStJk&m=5iX-ggQqbhH1bwUbE9jQAQ6v2w8rmOOHUmKkYvWHZPk&s=xo1BgYXbtveCtV-lLvwFvdKxxXLWNtscdbEmBQ_YO8g&e= > Rootsweb Blog: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__rootsweb.blog&d=DwIBaQ&c=kKqjBR9KKWaWpMhASkPbOg&r=YFun9vvvShGac7kGpuf_2DnEB5abo6nIppcjWSsStJk&m=5iX-ggQqbhH1bwUbE9jQAQ6v2w8rmOOHUmKkYvWHZPk&s=hXiAFH1Hxnsee7inhJai8LwCe76B4UrBsFFogut8JdY&e= > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community >

Greetings, I have just received a death certificate for one Arthur Daly the son of Arthur Daly who claims to be born at Lake Nash N.T. I do not know if this refers to Lake Nash Station, or Alpurrurulam, known as Lake Nash, the town. He would have been born about 1902. His wife was not on the death certificate, but she was believed to be a full blood Aboriginal and all their children were born at Barclay Station, Camooweal, Queensland. The question is, how does one search records if you are not in the NT. Is there a look-up system ? Do you have to employ a researcher ? or is there a website I've yet to find :) Any answers would be greatly received. Teddy

Hello List A person on Face Book from SA has posted a message, with photo of a locket with a soldier in side. Has anyone lost a a Locket at Mt Gambier, SA about 10 years ago? The locket has initials on the front and a photo of a soldier inside. The finder would love to return it to its rightful owner as it's sure to have great sentimental value for someone. You can contact me, and I'll put you in touch with the finder. Regards Beryl

Hello Peter Try searching Australian newspapers on line ie http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/111529049?searchTerm=Kelk alice springs&searchLimits= Business men of Parramatta were well represented, as well- as Agricultural men of the district. The hall was 'beautifully decorated with Peach Blossoms, kindly lent by Mrs. E. D. Baskerville. Credit must be given to the Social Committee, Mesdames N. Inness, S. Dawson, W. J. Thomas, J. J. Walsh, and E. D. Baskerville for their wonderful taste. Among the guests entertained by Mr. and Mrs. Jack Cooper, the Society's Patron,. were Miss Joan Kelk, of Alice Springs, Ciao Margaret -----Original Message----- From: Ros Dunstall via Sent: Friday, October 17, 2014 7:23 PM To: Drofeeb ; aus-nt@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-NT] Kelk - Alice Springs Perhaps some names to see if we can find elsewhere Peter. On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:43 AM, Drofeeb via <aus-nt@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Does anyone know of a family named Kelk who lived in the Alice Springs > region, they were originally from either Nottinghamshire or West > Yorkshire in England > > Thanks > Peter > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-NT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-NT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Perhaps some names to see if we can find elsewhere Peter. On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:43 AM, Drofeeb via <aus-nt@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Does anyone know of a family named Kelk who lived in the Alice Springs > region, they were originally from either Nottinghamshire or West > Yorkshire in England > > Thanks > Peter > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-NT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Some KELK research here :< http://www.mytrees.com/ancestry/Australia/Born-1874/Ke/Kelk-family/Gustav-Kelk-we002111-915.html > On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:43 AM, Drofeeb via <aus-nt@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Does anyone know of a family named Kelk who lived in the Alice Springs > region, they were originally from either Nottinghamshire or West > Yorkshire in England > > Thanks > Peter > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-NT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi, Does anyone know of a family named Kelk who lived in the Alice Springs region, they were originally from either Nottinghamshire or West Yorkshire in England Thanks Peter

Sorry my last email should have said NT events not SA. Thanks Shauna Shauna Hicks www.shaunahicks.com.au <http://diaryofanaustraliangenealogist.blogspot.com.au/> http://diaryofanaustraliangenealogist.blogspot.com.au

Hi As the voluntary coordinator of National Family History Month an initiative of the Australasian Federation of Family History Organisations, one of my tasks is to promote NFHM throughout August. There are some great events happening in SA plus there are online events to so check out the NFHM web calendar. http://www.familyhistorymonth.org.au/ Also take a look at the NFHM prize sponsors and the great prizes for individuals. http://www.familyhistorymonth.org.au/sponsors How to enter the giveaway prize draw is on the home page. Thanks Shauna Shauna Hicks www.shaunahicks.com.au http://diaryofanaustraliangenealogist.blogspot.com.au

Hi I would be grateful if I could make contact with who knew or is related to Lovoni Jones. He / she was living in Tennant Creek, NT in December 1970. Lovoni is listed in relations of Leslie James Campbell who died in West Ryde Sydney in Dec 1970. Leslie's mother, Lucy Campbell nee McFarlane was my great aunt. Warm regards

Dear Listers, Below is a Interesting Conversation for those that have a Problem with invasion of Privacy. Removing your Address from you Electoral return. I found out that one person I was looking for had his name in the electoral returns but had a suppressed Address, (I did find him through his son as He had the same name) On this subject, Below is a Transcript between me and the Federal AEC. Ron Fitzpatrick ----- Original Message ----- From: "INFO" <info@aec.gov.au> To: "Ron Fitzpatrick" <fitzp369@iinet.net.au> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 2:39 PM Subject: RE: Suppressed AddressBen Waldock | Public Enquiries Officer [DLM=For-Official-Use-Only] For-Official-Use-Only Dear Ron, Anything on our internet site is for public knowledge. See: http://www.aec.gov.au/Enrolling_to_vote/Special_Category/Silent_Electors.htm Education & Communications Branch Australian Electoral Commission Canberra ACT -----Original Message----- From: Ron Fitzpatrick [mailto:fitzp369@iinet.net.au] Sent: Wednesday, 25 September 2013 1:45 PM To: INFO Subject: Re: Suppressed Address [DLM=For-Official-Use-Only]Ben Waldock | Public Enquiries Officer Dear Mr Waldock, Could I have your Permission to Pass your answer on to Family History Researchers. Some of the ones I know have asked about this very Possibility Having had this problem in before in My Research, I wondered how it was achieved, I would now like to Pass it on. Ron Fitzpatrick Adelaide South Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "INFO" <info@aec.gov.au> To: "Ron Fitzpatrick" <fitzp369@iinet.net.au> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 11:23 AM Subject: RE: Suppressed Address [DLM=For-Official-Use-Only] For-Official-Use-Only Dear Mr Fitzpatrick, Thank you for your email. To have your address details supressed on the Electoral Roll and Certified Lists, you need to apply for Silent Elector status. Silent elector status is not granted automatically. Each application is considered by the Divisional Returning Officer and a decision is made based on whether it meets the legal conditions for silent elector status. Further information regarding Silent Elector status and application forms can be found at http://www.aec.gov.au/Enrolling_to_vote/Special_Category/Silent_Electors.htm. Please contact us if you have any questions. Kind regards Ben Waldock | Public Enquiries Officer Enrolment & Internal Communication Section | Education & Communications Branch Australian Electoral Commission T: (02) 6271 4411 | F: (02) 6271 4535 -----Original Message----- From: Ron Fitzpatrick [mailto:fitzp369@iinet.net.au] Sent: Tuesday, 24 September 2013 5:48 PM To: INFO Subject: Suppressed Address Please, What does one do to Have their Address suppressed from the Electoral Returns? Ron Fitzpatrick Adelaide For-Official-Use-Only DISCLAIMER: If you have received this transmission in error please notify us immediately by return email and delete all copies. If this email or any attachments have been sent to you in error, that error does not constitute waiver of any confidentiality, privilege or copyright in respect of information in the email or attachments. For-Official-Use-Only DISCLAIMER: If you have received this transmission in error please notify us immediately by return email and delete all copies. If this email or any attachments have been sent to you in error, that error does not constitute waiver of any confidentiality, privilege or copyright in respect of information in the email or attachments.

Folks, It Has Come to my Attention The current electoral roll can be viewed at the following locations: Electoral Commission of South Australia (ECSA) The current South Australian electoral roll is available for public viewing during business hours at: Address: Electoral Commission of South Australia Now may I suggest you check to see if your State Electoral Commission will let you search their Returns. Queensland: http://www.ecq.qld.gov.au/ NSW: http://www.elections.nsw.gov.au/ Victoria: https://www.vec.vic.gov.au/ Tasmania: http://www.electoral.tas.gov.au/ South Australia: www.ecsa.sa.gov.au Western Australia: http://www.elections.wa.gov.au/ Northern Territory: http://notes.nt.gov.au/nteo/Electorl.nsf?OpenDatabase Good Luck Ron Fitzpatrick

Sorry Folks, I Clicked on Send and my computer said it couldn't delete it so I clicked send again twice, hence 3 of the same Email. I still had to Manually Delete it. Ron

Australian Electoral Commission Reply. Ron Fitzpatrick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wizard" <Wizard@aec.gov.au> To: <fitzp369@iinet.net.au> Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:46 AM Subject: RE: Please could you Tell Us [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] [DLM=For-Official-Use-Only] For-Official-Use-Only Dear Ron, Section 90A of the Electoral Act provides that the electoral roll is open to public inspection in Divisional & State Offices. However, section 91A(2A) states that the permitted purposes for the use of roll information for people or organisations that are neither Senators, members of the House of Representatives, a political party or a prescribed authority are: (a) any purpose in connection with an election or referendum; (b) monitoring the accuracy of information contained in the roll; or (c) any other prescribed purpose. The combination of section 91A(2A) and the AEC's obligations under the Privacy Act 1988 has led to the AEC's policy that electronic roll (e-roll) in our offices is only to be used for the purpose of checking a person's own enrolment details or to object to the enrolment of a person on the basis that the information on the roll is incorrect. This policy is displayed on our website here: http://www.aec.gov.au/Enrolling_to_vote/About_Electoral_Roll/ In regards to the White Pages, as this document is not under the jurisdiction of the Electoral Act, I can't comment on any restrictions that may or may not exist as I am not privy to them. Regards, Mr. Giles Tranter | Wizard Cell Supervisor Election & External Communication Section | Education & Communications Branch Australian Electoral Commission T: (02) 6160 2680 | F: (02) 6271 4535 ________________________________________ From: Ron Fitzpatrick [fitzp369@iinet.net.au] Sent: Monday, 16 September 2013 9:57 AM To: info@aec.gov.au Cc: Info Election2013 Subject: Please could you Tell Us Please could you Tell Us; (Us, Being the Genealogist, Researches and Family Historians from All Australian States) Is It Now Illegal To search The Electoral Returns at the AEC Offices other than your own Listing, Is it Law? It Is Causing a Lot of Concern that a good source is to be Banned. <<<<>>>> I Personally am A Researcher that Relies on the Electoral Returns to Find Lost Friends and Relatives and Put Them Back in Contact with Families and Friends. It Is Not For any Reward other than a Happy Ending. It Is Also Possible that the Australian White Pages may suffer the same Fate? Ron Fitzpatrick South Australia For-Official-Use-Only DISCLAIMER: If you have received this transmission in error please notify us immediately by return email and delete all copies. If this email or any attachments have been sent to you in error, that error does not constitute waiver of any confidentiality, privilege or copyright in respect of information in the email or attachments.

Australian Electoral Commission Reply. Ron Fitzpatrick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wizard" <Wizard@aec.gov.au> To: <fitzp369@iinet.net.au> Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:46 AM Subject: RE: Please could you Tell Us [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] [DLM=For-Official-Use-Only] For-Official-Use-Only Dear Ron, Section 90A of the Electoral Act provides that the electoral roll is open to public inspection in Divisional & State Offices. However, section 91A(2A) states that the permitted purposes for the use of roll information for people or organisations that are neither Senators, members of the House of Representatives, a political party or a prescribed authority are: (a) any purpose in connection with an election or referendum; (b) monitoring the accuracy of information contained in the roll; or (c) any other prescribed purpose. The combination of section 91A(2A) and the AEC's obligations under the Privacy Act 1988 has led to the AEC's policy that electronic roll (e-roll) in our offices is only to be used for the purpose of checking a person's own enrolment details or to object to the enrolment of a person on the basis that the information on the roll is incorrect. This policy is displayed on our website here: http://www.aec.gov.au/Enrolling_to_vote/About_Electoral_Roll/ In regards to the White Pages, as this document is not under the jurisdiction of the Electoral Act, I can't comment on any restrictions that may or may not exist as I am not privy to them. Regards, Mr. Giles Tranter | Wizard Cell Supervisor Election & External Communication Section | Education & Communications Branch Australian Electoral Commission T: (02) 6160 2680 | F: (02) 6271 4535 ________________________________________ From: Ron Fitzpatrick [fitzp369@iinet.net.au] Sent: Monday, 16 September 2013 9:57 AM To: info@aec.gov.au Cc: Info Election2013 Subject: Please could you Tell Us Please could you Tell Us; (Us, Being the Genealogist, Researches and Family Historians from All Australian States) Is It Now Illegal To search The Electoral Returns at the AEC Offices other than your own Listing, Is it Law? It Is Causing a Lot of Concern that a good source is to be Banned. <<<<>>>> I Personally am A Researcher that Relies on the Electoral Returns to Find Lost Friends and Relatives and Put Them Back in Contact with Families and Friends. It Is Not For any Reward other than a Happy Ending. It Is Also Possible that the Australian White Pages may suffer the same Fate? Ron Fitzpatrick South Australia For-Official-Use-Only DISCLAIMER: If you have received this transmission in error please notify us immediately by return email and delete all copies. If this email or any attachments have been sent to you in error, that error does not constitute waiver of any confidentiality, privilege or copyright in respect of information in the email or attachments.

Australian Electoral Commission Reply. Ron Fitzpatrick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wizard" <Wizard@aec.gov.au> To: <fitzp369@iinet.net.au> Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:46 AM Subject: RE: Please could you Tell Us [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] [DLM=For-Official-Use-Only] For-Official-Use-Only Dear Ron, Section 90A of the Electoral Act provides that the electoral roll is open to public inspection in Divisional & State Offices. However, section 91A(2A) states that the permitted purposes for the use of roll information for people or organisations that are neither Senators, members of the House of Representatives, a political party or a prescribed authority are: (a) any purpose in connection with an election or referendum; (b) monitoring the accuracy of information contained in the roll; or (c) any other prescribed purpose. The combination of section 91A(2A) and the AEC's obligations under the Privacy Act 1988 has led to the AEC's policy that electronic roll (e-roll) in our offices is only to be used for the purpose of checking a person's own enrolment details or to object to the enrolment of a person on the basis that the information on the roll is incorrect. This policy is displayed on our website here: http://www.aec.gov.au/Enrolling_to_vote/About_Electoral_Roll/ In regards to the White Pages, as this document is not under the jurisdiction of the Electoral Act, I can't comment on any restrictions that may or may not exist as I am not privy to them. Regards, Mr. Giles Tranter | Wizard Cell Supervisor Election & External Communication Section | Education & Communications Branch Australian Electoral Commission T: (02) 6160 2680 | F: (02) 6271 4535 ________________________________________ From: Ron Fitzpatrick [fitzp369@iinet.net.au] Sent: Monday, 16 September 2013 9:57 AM To: info@aec.gov.au Cc: Info Election2013 Subject: Please could you Tell Us Please could you Tell Us; (Us, Being the Genealogist, Researches and Family Historians from All Australian States) Is It Now Illegal To search The Electoral Returns at the AEC Offices other than your own Listing, Is it Law? It Is Causing a Lot of Concern that a good source is to be Banned. <<<<>>>> I Personally am A Researcher that Relies on the Electoral Returns to Find Lost Friends and Relatives and Put Them Back in Contact with Families and Friends. It Is Not For any Reward other than a Happy Ending. It Is Also Possible that the Australian White Pages may suffer the same Fate? Ron Fitzpatrick South Australia For-Official-Use-Only DISCLAIMER: If you have received this transmission in error please notify us immediately by return email and delete all copies. If this email or any attachments have been sent to you in error, that error does not constitute waiver of any confidentiality, privilege or copyright in respect of information in the email or attachments.

Dear Listers, I found on Friday that it is now illegal to use the South Australian Electoral Office Computers to search for Folk, can only now be used for checking your own Listing, It is now regarded as invading Privacy. I only Hope the Online White Pages don't go the same way. The Voting Returns are now being kept at the relevant Councils. I have written to my local MP to see if its now a Law, I may get a reply Monday 16th. Is this the same in your State or is it only in South Australia. I hope not as we need somewhere to find our lost ones. Ron Fitzpatrick South Australia

:Neakoba, Nyakoba, Neakobas, Nyakobas: Dear Listers, I am looking for any Family with any of the Surnames above. The time Zone is between 1933 & 1954 +. I am trying to help a Lady in America, Yvonne that is trying to find out about her Birth Mother E.N.Neakoba a white Russian, (her Father a Japanese Military Man). E.N.Neakoba while in Hospital in China for the Birth of Yvonne (1933)?, it is believed she asked her Sister to Take her two older Daughters to Russia With Her, and she then came to Australia. She had Adopted Yvonne to an American Dr and his wife, and she then came to Australia. Yvonne wishes to know If she Then came to Australia Where did she Die and has she any Decedents still living. Thanking you one and all for any Future Help. Ron Fitzpatrick Adelaide South Australia

A reply email from the Attorney-General and Minister for Justice: I refer to your email regarding BDM historical index data. To resolve this issue our IT support team are writing a script to capture the data and populate the required index fields. We are looking to have this matter finalised by late this week. Regards Colin Wood A/Director BDM Program     Cheers Don From the Hawkesbury below the Blue Mountains outside Sydney NSW.

Ruth Contact the Registry Office in Darwin with as much information that you can provide. I must admit, they were no help to me though. Barb