Would any fellow Lister live in close proximity to 10 Carey Street, Randwick? The reason asked is that the lady I am researching, lived there in the 1950s and her Daughter lived next door at No.12. I can find the family sought through the Electoral Rolls as living Leith Vale, Carey Street, Randwick and there is also mention of family living 10 Carey Street and I wonder if Leith Vale and 10 Carey Street are one and the same and that a portion of the family despite living at the same address are recorded as living in No.10 and the other; Leith Vale? If such is the case; then I wonder who lived next door at No.12? I would very much appreciate any assistance to sort this out? Regards: Robert

Hi Dorothy For Robyn Parker that email address appears to be for matters relating to Maitland, the below seems better for the Lennox Bridge Parramatta concern. Office of Environment and Heritage, please send your correspondence to the Minister's Office at office@parker.minister.nsw.gov.au Karen > Partial Demolition of Lennox Bridge Approved: On Wednesday 3 October the > NSW Heritage Council voted to allow Parramatta City Council to demolish > part of the 1830s convict-built Lennox Bridge to provide for two riverbank > cycleways. The Heritage Council still has vacant positions for an historian > and a National Trust representative, who might have been able to influence > the vote. To voice your disapproval please email The Honorable Robyn > Parker, Minister for Heritage Robyn.Parker@parliament.nsw.gov.au,

This statement was issued in the latest RAHS E-News. Partial Demolition of Lennox Bridge Approved: On Wednesday 3 October the NSW Heritage Council voted to allow Parramatta City Council to demolish part of the 1830s convict-built Lennox Bridge to provide for two riverbank cycleways. The Heritage Council still has vacant positions for an historian and a National Trust representative, who might have been able to influence the vote. To voice your disapproval please email The Honorable Robyn Parker, Minister for Heritage Robyn.Parker@parliament.nsw.gov.au, Heritage Council Chair Professor Lawrence Nield Lawrence.Nield@newcastle.edu.au. Parramatta City Council has yet to determine the Development Application so you should also contact the Lord Mayor Cr John Chedid jchedid@parracity.nsw.gov.au. We are seeking your help once again to save an important part of Parramatta, Sydney & Australia's history. This development application was withdrawn by Parramatta Council the first time they presented it due to the amount of objections it raised by individuals and Family & Local History Groups. Unfortunately, the council has re-presented the proposal which has now been approved by the NSW Heritage Council - for reasons that are unknown and completely incomprehensible to us. Please voice your disapproval of this application by emailing the abovementioned authorities. Thank you Dorothy Warwick

At 03:31 PM 8/10/2012, you wrote: Marg >Thanks for this info ....... Must be something in the water that >bringing on these name changes :-) >Personally Rookwood will always be Rookwood. If a longer name is >needed I think your suggestion is a good one. Name changes of institutions often go hand in hand with internal structural changes and how they service clients. What happened after our postal, railways, electricity, public works & employment services changed their names. It's the cemeteries turn now - Rookwood Necropolis is the first of a rollout across the state. Gary _________________________________ Gary Luke ~ gary@feraltek.com.au Sydney, Australia

At 04:01 PM 8/10/2012, you wrote: Alison >It would appear on closer looking at the site and contact with the >cemetery that they appear to be asking for suggestions to >rename the cemetery TRUST rather than the name of the cemetery itself. > >The wording on the website gives the impression it's the whole >cemetery they wish to rename, which doesn't appear to be the case. A leaflet I received from Rookwood says it's the name for the cemetery, not only the name of the trust board. They're accepting votes and suggestions up to 17th Oct before they make their decision. The name of the cemetery until now has been Rookwood Necropolis. The name of the trust overseeing general infrastructure has been Rookwood Necropolis Trust, which replaced the Joint Committee of Necropolis Trustees in 2010. http://rookwood.nsw.gov.au/ Rookwood is the first of a complete overhaul of management of all cemeteries in NSW. Gary _________________________________ Gary Luke ~ gary@feraltek.com.au Sydney, Australia

It would appear on closer looking at the site and contact with the cemetery that they appear to be asking for suggestions to rename the cemetery TRUST rather than the name of the cemetery itself. The wording on the website gives the impression it's the whole cemetery they wish to rename, which doesn't appear to be the case. Alison :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 8.10.2012 3:31 PM, MargM wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary Luke" <gary@feraltek.com.au> > To: "Sydney Group" <aus-nsw-sydney@rootsweb.com>; > <australia@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 1:55 PM > Subject: [AUS] Rookwood Cemetery > > >> In case it's not known, Rookwood cemetery is undergoing a >> radical >> change of management and they intend about change the name of >> the >> cemetery. You can vote online or send an alternate suggestion. >> http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/ >> >> My preference is "Rookwood Necropolis Cemetery". This is the >> only >> name of the five options which isn't a disconnect with the >> cemetery's >> past. Cemeteries are usually given names with "memorial" or >> "heritage" when they become out of use or get converted to a >> park by a council. >> >> <snip>

----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Luke" <gary@feraltek.com.au> To: "Sydney Group" <aus-nsw-sydney@rootsweb.com>; <australia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 1:55 PM Subject: [AUS] Rookwood Cemetery > > In case it's not known, Rookwood cemetery is undergoing a > radical > change of management and they intend about change the name of > the > cemetery. You can vote online or send an alternate suggestion. > http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/ > > My preference is "Rookwood Necropolis Cemetery". This is the > only > name of the five options which isn't a disconnect with the > cemetery's > past. Cemeteries are usually given names with "memorial" or > "heritage" when they become out of use or get converted to a > park by a council. > > Hi Gary Thanks for this info ....... Must be something in the water that bringing on these name changes :-) Like the F3 is going to be the M1 ? or something like that .A couple of years ago the powers that be, changed the name of The Entrance Road to the Central Coast Highway . Its still a goat track regardless. Personally Rookwood will always be Rookwood. If a longer name is needed I think your suggestion is a good one. bye MargM Sydney List Admin > > > _________________________________ > Gary Luke ~ gary@feraltek.com.au > Sydney, Australia > > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you > post any > reply...... Thank you! > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUSTRALIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In case it's not known, Rookwood cemetery is undergoing a radical change of management and they intend about change the name of the cemetery. You can vote online or send an alternate suggestion. http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/ My preference is "Rookwood Necropolis Cemetery". This is the only name of the five options which isn't a disconnect with the cemetery's past. Cemeteries are usually given names with "memorial" or "heritage" when they become out of use or get converted to a park by a council. Gary _________________________________ Gary Luke ~ gary@feraltek.com.au Sydney, Australia

Greetings Bob and Laurel Apologies for the slow reply, somehow my anti virus system put your email in the spam folder and I have just seen it based on the info you have provided the 25% infant mortality rate in the Balmain Catholic cemetery was not unusual and I have now accepted the figure as 'normal' times, I have no way of knowing what the real figure might be for this cemetery as I have no way of knowing how many were actually buried there, I have found 1000 burials but based on the available land the number buried could be twice that. It's been a long road to find the 1000 and I am now calling it a day on any further research, although you should never say never. Its time for me to publish my work and go fishing many thanks for your interest Patrick Callaghan -----Original Message----- From: aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Laurel Horton Sent: Wednesday, 26 September 2012 11:47 PM To: aus-nsw-sydney@rootsweb.com Subject: [ANS] Infant Death Statistics. St. Peter's Cooks River graveyard, attached to the Anglican church of the same name covers the period 1839-1896, and has in total 2,543 burials. All classes of people are buried in the graveyard, from merchants to paupers and lunatics, and doubtless some who are Roman Catholic. 244 are dead before they reach three months old. 777 don't reach the age of one year. That is just over 30 % of the total burials. If we take the figure for those not reaching the age of five, the figure is 1011, and the percentage is over 39%. In our publication on the graveyard at St. Peter's, "Grave Reflections," we suggest measles, scarlet fever and typhoid fever are significant factors, especially in densely populated industrial suburbs, and when averaged over a long period, mortality in Sydney suburbs was usually 50% higher than in the same age groups in Australian rural areas. Bob and Laurel Horton St. Peters Cook's River History Group. Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post any reply...... Thank you! ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello folks, I once attended a talk by a gastroenterologist who had done an historical study on what he called "Summer diaorrhoea", in which he explained that one of the largest causes of infant mortality in the 19th century was caused by fly-borne disease. Because of widespread distribution of horse and other animal manure in the streets, flies were a considerable problem in the summer months, and infants were particularly vulnerable. I wonder if another look at the 244 infants buried at St Peter's Crooks River graveyard might reveal that a high proportion died in the summer months? It was paradoxically the replacement of horse-power with motor vehicles that saved many childrens' lives. I think a look in the annual Statistician's Year Book would be rewarding for causes of death. The Australian Bureau of Statistics has been gathering stats since 1901, and before that state Statisticians were busy doing the same thing. Best wishes, Lenore The Empire Called and I Answered: the Volunteers of Essendon and Flemington the website The Empire Called blog > Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 23:46:53 +1000 > From: Laurel Horton <lrhorton@optusnet.com.au> > Subject: [ANS] Infant Death Statistics. > > St. Peter's Cooks River graveyard, attached to the Anglican church of > the same name covers the period 1839-1896, and has in total 2,543 > burials. All classes of people are buried in the graveyard, from > merchants to paupers and lunatics, and doubtless some who are Roman > Catholic. > 244 are dead before they reach three months old. 777 don't reach the > age of one year. That is just over 30 % of the total burials. If we > take the figure for those not reaching the age of five, the figure is > 1011, and the percentage is over 39%. In our publication on the > graveyard at St. Peter's, "Grave Reflections," we suggest measles, > scarlet fever and typhoid fever are significant factors, especially > in densely populated industrial suburbs, and when averaged over a > long period, mortality in Sydney suburbs was usually 50% higher than > in the same age groups in Australian rural areas. > Bob and Laurel Horton St. Peters Cook's River History Group.

Thanks Patrick......will keep my eye out for it, next time I am in Balmain visiting my brother.

Morning Bill Many Thanks for all this information, you are a font of knowledge I have now concluded the number of infant deaths I have is about average for those times and have put this particular topic 'to bed' many Thanks Patrick -----Original Message----- From: aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Wednesday, 26 September 2012 9:35 PM To: aus-nsw-sydney@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ANS] Help Needed on infant death statistics Dear Patrick, When I was extracting information for the Ryerson Index to Back Index the SMH I was using hard copies of the paper from Lithgow FHS. This gave me a better opportunity to see other things, and slowed down my real job dramatically. All sorts of news and Court information kept jumping out at me. Just to digress a little, authorities talk of fatal vehicle collisions these days, but I recall reading of several people killed by stepping in front of a horse drawn cab. These often show up as a Casualty to start with in either the Casualties column, sometimes headed "From the Hospital", then the next day or so there would be a report of the Inquest. Bear in mind that State Records have no actual Inquest papers for these times, just the Register. Each day there were reports, giving names, from the Water Police Court, Central Police Court, sometimes other Courts too, and on that page there were usually a couple of Inquest Reports. Inquests were mostly held at hotels, and in front of a Jury. The photographs I took are not really good as I didn't have a camera with Macro then, but have a look in the Sydney Morning Herald at headings like :- Statistics of New South Wales 1 Oct 1881, New South Wales in 1881 on 30 Dec 1881 which refers to a 135 page report. The Health of City and Suburbs 26 Jun 1885 , Mortality rate for 21 years, which is quite a large item. Statistical register for 1883. 8 Apr 1885. The Statistical Register of New South Wales, 18 Jul 1888 Growth of Population 4 Apr 1890, Australasian Statistics 19 Apr 1890. I can't pick it up at the moment, but some of these items under Statistics, Vital Statistics, or similar, must have come I think from the Government Gazette information but contained all sorts of information like acres of crops, Population, Number of horses, Miles or Telegraph under construction, Miles of Railway under construction. There was at least one of them I recall reading quickly that mentioned the number of deaths, disected into suicides, and all types of other causes. If you can find one of them it may give specific information on a particular area, like the area you are seeking. Also I recall some items headed Typhoid, so I wondered if that was a problem in the area at that time. Some of those items took up a couple of column inches, but others were just a couple of lines in the column "Country News", bearing in mind that places like Liverpool and Wahroonga were then in the country. I have copies of a couple of dozen of them, but I think you will get a better one off TROVE. Look forward to your publication. Regards, Bill > Hi again Mary > I am sure your assessment is correct, as I progressively found deaths > and burials I realised that there would be a high infant mortality > rate but thought I would see what other listers thought about a 25% > death rate and all those who have replied have made conclusions > similar to yours I do have one family who had seven children, the > first six of whom died at an early age and were buried in the Balmain > Catholic only the seventh child seems to have survived to AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post any reply...... Thank you! ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

St. Peter's Cooks River graveyard, attached to the Anglican church of the same name covers the period 1839-1896, and has in total 2,543 burials. All classes of people are buried in the graveyard, from merchants to paupers and lunatics, and doubtless some who are Roman Catholic. 244 are dead before they reach three months old. 777 don't reach the age of one year. That is just over 30 % of the total burials. If we take the figure for those not reaching the age of five, the figure is 1011, and the percentage is over 39%. In our publication on the graveyard at St. Peter's, "Grave Reflections," we suggest measles, scarlet fever and typhoid fever are significant factors, especially in densely populated industrial suburbs, and when averaged over a long period, mortality in Sydney suburbs was usually 50% higher than in the same age groups in Australian rural areas. Bob and Laurel Horton St. Peters Cook's River History Group.

Dear Patrick, When I was extracting information for the Ryerson Index to Back Index the SMH I was using hard copies of the paper from Lithgow FHS. This gave me a better opportunity to see other things, and slowed down my real job dramatically. All sorts of news and Court information kept jumping out at me. Just to digress a little, authorities talk of fatal vehicle collisions these days, but I recall reading of several people killed by stepping in front of a horse drawn cab. These often show up as a Casualty to start with in either the Casualties column, sometimes headed "From the Hospital", then the next day or so there would be a report of the Inquest. Bear in mind that State Records have no actual Inquest papers for these times, just the Register. Each day there were reports, giving names, from the Water Police Court, Central Police Court, sometimes other Courts too, and on that page there were usually a couple of Inquest Reports. Inquests were mostly held at hotels, and in front of a Jury. The photographs I took are not really good as I didn't have a camera with Macro then, but have a look in the Sydney Morning Herald at headings like :- Statistics of New South Wales 1 Oct 1881, New South Wales in 1881 on 30 Dec 1881 which refers to a 135 page report. The Health of City and Suburbs 26 Jun 1885 , Mortality rate for 21 years, which is quite a large item. Statistical register for 1883. 8 Apr 1885. The Statistical Register of New South Wales, 18 Jul 1888 Growth of Population 4 Apr 1890, Australasian Statistics 19 Apr 1890. I can't pick it up at the moment, but some of these items under Statistics, Vital Statistics, or similar, must have come I think from the Government Gazette information but contained all sorts of information like acres of crops, Population, Number of horses, Miles or Telegraph under construction, Miles of Railway under construction. There was at least one of them I recall reading quickly that mentioned the number of deaths, disected into suicides, and all types of other causes. If you can find one of them it may give specific information on a particular area, like the area you are seeking. Also I recall some items headed Typhoid, so I wondered if that was a problem in the area at that time. Some of those items took up a couple of column inches, but others were just a couple of lines in the column "Country News", bearing in mind that places like Liverpool and Wahroonga were then in the country. I have copies of a couple of dozen of them, but I think you will get a better one off TROVE. Look forward to your publication. Regards, Bill > Hi again Mary > I am sure your assessment is correct, as I progressively found deaths and > burials I realised that there would be a high infant mortality rate > but thought I would see what other listers thought about a 25% death rate > and all those who have replied have made conclusions similar to yours > I do have one family who had seven children, the first six of whom died at > an early age and were buried in the Balmain Catholic only the seventh > child seems to have survived to AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Mary Its lovely to have all those reminders from the past, also Leichhardt Library local studies section has the burial register for the Balmain General cemetery if you are interested all the best Patrick -----Original Message----- From: aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mary Cunningham Sent: Wednesday, 26 September 2012 4:09 PM To: aus-nsw-sydney@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ANS] Help Needed on infant death statistics Hi all I might have ancestors in both, as they often intermarried in my family. My Protestant grandmother used to have to hide the Masonic stuff from my Catholic grandfather when two of their sons joined the Masons. She used to keep grandpa occupied while the boys threw their masonic stuff over the balcony of their small terrace house, to whoever was waiting below to catch it. I have inherited it, without understanding any of it......to me it is just a nice reminder of my uncles.! Thank you, and kind regards Mary > I know that the ladies who put together the cd on the Balmain general > cemetery did some work on the infant mortality rate and I have sent > them an email, it will be interesting to compare the infant mortality > rate of the largely Protestant General cemetery and the Catholic > cemetery many thanks for your interest Patrick > > -----Original Message----- > From: aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mary > Cunningham > Sent: Wednesday, 26 September 2012 2:14 PM > To: aus-nsw-sydney@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [ANS] Help Needed on infant death statistics > > My pleasure > > And yes there were many more complications in childbirth in those > early years, which would account for the deaths of newborns. > I think that perhaps even though they had work, many of them might not > have been able to afford a doctor to attend each birth. > I imagine the ratio between doctors and births would have been 1 > doctor for every 20 births, particularly in areas like Balmain where > there was a large catholic population. > Remember in those days, most doctors were men. Most women preferred to > have a women attend them during childbirth, but if anything went wrong > they were in trouble without a doctor.. > They had more midwives than we have today, but I think for the most > part, they had no medical qualifications, just the experience of > delivering babies. > I lost my father in March, and amongst his possessions (which I have > kept) is a birth control booklet, probably from St Augustines..... > > Mary > > > > On 26 September 2012 13:15, Patrick Callaghan <balcolyn@activ8.net.au > >wrote: > > > Hi Mary > > Many thanks for your reply, I guess it was just how things were, > > many of those who died very young survived only a few hours > > and twins seemed especially vulnerable. I have four children and four > > grandchildren, all healthy and well, I wonder what the situation > > might have been if I had lived in those times all the best Patrick > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mary > > Cunningham > > Sent: Wednesday, 26 September 2012 11:16 AM > > To: aus-nsw-sydney@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [ANS] Help Needed on infant death statistics > > > > Hi Patrick > > > > I think it was just "of those times" > > I have had ancestors in Balmain since the early 1800's. Still have > > one brother living there now. > > My grandmother told me a story of how the nuns once came to their > > house in Adolphus Street, and put ten pounds on the > > mantlepiece....to feed the children, of which there were seven! > > My grandfathers family were Roman Catholic Irish.. > > It was during the great depression of the 1930's, but apart from the > > depression years they always had work. > > Childhood diseases like measles, mumps, whooping cough, etc; took > > more children in those days, even in the wealthier suburbs of Sydney. > > > > Mary > > > > On 26 September 2012 10:09, Patrick Callaghan > > <balcolyn@activ8.net.au > > >wrote: > > > > > Greetings listers > > > > > > I am sending this email to several mailing lists as I know that > > > that there is a great deal of knowledge 'out there' > > > > > > > > > > > > Having reached my target of finding 1000 burials to, at least > > > partially, recreate the lost burial register of the long > > > disappeared Balmain > > > > > > Catholic cemetery I am now getting ready to publish my work (in > > > November) > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is where I need some wisdom from listers and I understand > > > that the figures I am using may not represent the perfect > > > statistical base > > > > > > BUT > > > > > > amongst the 1000 burials I have found there are 258 children under > > > the age of 5, that's 25% of the known burials and that seems very > > > high to me > > > > > > so my question is, dear reader, what do you think??? > > > > > > The Balmain area was largely working class in the years the > > > cemetery was open (1868 - 1902) is this figure representative of > > > other working class > > > > > > areas of that time > > > > > > > > > > > > The figure of 258 is made up of 174 unfants, under the age of one > > > and > > > 84 under the age of 5, so one conclusion seems to be that if you > > > made it > > > > > > to your first birthday your chance of a long life increased > > > markedly > > ????? > > > > > > > > > I look forward to your thoughts > > > > > > Patrick Callaghan > > > > > > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you > > > post any reply...... Thank you! > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post > > any reply...... Thank you! > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post > > any reply...... Thank you! > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post > any reply...... Thank you! > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post > any reply...... Thank you! > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post any reply...... Thank you! ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Many Thanks Jocelyn I will try your suggestion and see what I find all the best Patrick -----Original Message----- From: aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jocelyn Lloyd Sent: Wednesday, 26 September 2012 4:27 PM To: aus-nsw-sydney@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ANS] Help Needed on infant death statistics Dear Patrick, I agree 25% does seem high, which suggests that your sample may not be unbiased. Comprehensive records of a statistical nature were kept for births and deaths. Try the NSW Government Gazette. A search in Trove on " vital statistics balmain" for the various years of interest to you should give you some figures to play with. Cheers, Jocelyn >Having reached my target of finding 1000 burials to, at least >partially, recreate the lost burial register of the long disappeared >Balmain > >Catholic cemetery I am now getting ready to publish my work (in >November) > > > >Here is where I need some wisdom from listers and I understand that the >figures I am using may not represent the perfect statistical base > >BUT > >amongst the 1000 burials I have found there are 258 children under the >age of 5, that's 25% of the known burials and that seems very high to >me > >so my question is, dear reader, what do you think??? > >The Balmain area was largely working class in the years the cemetery >was open (1868 - 1902) is this figure representative of other working >class > >areas of that time > > > >The figure of 258 is made up of 174 unfants, under the age of one and >84 under the age of 5, so one conclusion seems to be that if you made >it > >to your first birthday your chance of a long life increased markedly ????? > > >I look forward to your thoughts > >Patrick Callaghan > >Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post any >reply...... Thank you! > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post any reply...... Thank you! ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Patrick, I agree 25% does seem high, which suggests that your sample may not be unbiased. Comprehensive records of a statistical nature were kept for births and deaths. Try the NSW Government Gazette. A search in Trove on " vital statistics balmain" for the various years of interest to you should give you some figures to play with. Cheers, Jocelyn >Having reached my target of finding 1000 burials to, at least partially, >recreate the lost burial register of the long disappeared Balmain > >Catholic cemetery I am now getting ready to publish my work (in November) > > > >Here is where I need some wisdom from listers and I understand that the >figures I am using may not represent the perfect statistical base > >BUT > >amongst the 1000 burials I have found there are 258 children under the age >of 5, that's 25% of the known burials and that seems very high to me > >so my question is, dear reader, what do you think??? > >The Balmain area was largely working class in the years the cemetery was >open (1868 - 1902) is this figure representative of other working class > >areas of that time > > > >The figure of 258 is made up of 174 unfants, under the age of one and 84 >under the age of 5, so one conclusion seems to be that if you made it > >to your first birthday your chance of a long life increased markedly ????? > > >I look forward to your thoughts > >Patrick Callaghan > >Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post any >reply...... Thank you! > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi all I might have ancestors in both, as they often intermarried in my family. My Protestant grandmother used to have to hide the Masonic stuff from my Catholic grandfather when two of their sons joined the Masons. She used to keep grandpa occupied while the boys threw their masonic stuff over the balcony of their small terrace house, to whoever was waiting below to catch it. I have inherited it, without understanding any of it......to me it is just a nice reminder of my uncles.! Thank you, and kind regards Mary > I know that the ladies who put together the cd on the Balmain general > cemetery did some work on the infant mortality rate and I have sent them > an email, it will be interesting to compare the infant mortality rate of > the > largely Protestant General cemetery and the Catholic cemetery > many thanks for your interest > Patrick > > -----Original Message----- > From: aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mary Cunningham > Sent: Wednesday, 26 September 2012 2:14 PM > To: aus-nsw-sydney@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [ANS] Help Needed on infant death statistics > > My pleasure > > And yes there were many more complications in childbirth in those early > years, which would account for the deaths of newborns. > I think that perhaps even though they had work, many of them might not have > been able to afford a doctor to attend each birth. > I imagine the ratio between doctors and births would have been 1 doctor for > every 20 births, particularly in areas like Balmain where there was a large > catholic population. > Remember in those days, most doctors were men. Most women preferred to have > a women attend them during childbirth, but if anything went wrong they were > in trouble without a doctor.. > They had more midwives than we have today, but I think for the most part, > they had no medical qualifications, just the experience of delivering > babies. > I lost my father in March, and amongst his possessions (which I have kept) > is a birth control booklet, probably from St Augustines..... > > Mary > > > > On 26 September 2012 13:15, Patrick Callaghan <balcolyn@activ8.net.au > >wrote: > > > Hi Mary > > Many thanks for your reply, I guess it was just how things were, many > > of those who died very young survived only a few hours > > and twins seemed especially vulnerable. I have four children and four > > grandchildren, all healthy and well, I wonder what the situation might > > have been if I had lived in those times all the best Patrick > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mary > > Cunningham > > Sent: Wednesday, 26 September 2012 11:16 AM > > To: aus-nsw-sydney@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [ANS] Help Needed on infant death statistics > > > > Hi Patrick > > > > I think it was just "of those times" > > I have had ancestors in Balmain since the early 1800's. Still have one > > brother living there now. > > My grandmother told me a story of how the nuns once came to their > > house in Adolphus Street, and put ten pounds on the mantlepiece....to > > feed the children, of which there were seven! > > My grandfathers family were Roman Catholic Irish.. > > It was during the great depression of the 1930's, but apart from the > > depression years they always had work. > > Childhood diseases like measles, mumps, whooping cough, etc; took more > > children in those days, even in the wealthier suburbs of Sydney. > > > > Mary > > > > On 26 September 2012 10:09, Patrick Callaghan <balcolyn@activ8.net.au > > >wrote: > > > > > Greetings listers > > > > > > I am sending this email to several mailing lists as I know that that > > > there is a great deal of knowledge 'out there' > > > > > > > > > > > > Having reached my target of finding 1000 burials to, at least > > > partially, recreate the lost burial register of the long disappeared > > > Balmain > > > > > > Catholic cemetery I am now getting ready to publish my work (in > > > November) > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is where I need some wisdom from listers and I understand that > > > the figures I am using may not represent the perfect statistical > > > base > > > > > > BUT > > > > > > amongst the 1000 burials I have found there are 258 children under > > > the age of 5, that's 25% of the known burials and that seems very > > > high to me > > > > > > so my question is, dear reader, what do you think??? > > > > > > The Balmain area was largely working class in the years the cemetery > > > was open (1868 - 1902) is this figure representative of other > > > working class > > > > > > areas of that time > > > > > > > > > > > > The figure of 258 is made up of 174 unfants, under the age of one > > > and > > > 84 under the age of 5, so one conclusion seems to be that if you > > > made it > > > > > > to your first birthday your chance of a long life increased markedly > > ????? > > > > > > > > > I look forward to your thoughts > > > > > > Patrick Callaghan > > > > > > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post > > > any reply...... Thank you! > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post > > any reply...... Thank you! > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post > > any reply...... Thank you! > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post any > reply...... Thank you! > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post any > reply...... Thank you! > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi again Mary I am sure your assessment is correct, as I progressively found deaths and burials I realised that there would be a high infant mortality rate but thought I would see what other listers thought about a 25% death rate and all those who have replied have made conclusions similar to yours I do have one family who had seven children, the first six of whom died at an early age and were buried in the Balmain Catholic only the seventh child seems to have survived I know that the ladies who put together the cd on the Balmain general cemetery did some work on the infant mortality rate and I have sent them an email, it will be interesting to compare the infant mortality rate of the largely Protestant General cemetery and the Catholic cemetery many thanks for your interest Patrick -----Original Message----- From: aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mary Cunningham Sent: Wednesday, 26 September 2012 2:14 PM To: aus-nsw-sydney@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ANS] Help Needed on infant death statistics My pleasure And yes there were many more complications in childbirth in those early years, which would account for the deaths of newborns. I think that perhaps even though they had work, many of them might not have been able to afford a doctor to attend each birth. I imagine the ratio between doctors and births would have been 1 doctor for every 20 births, particularly in areas like Balmain where there was a large catholic population. Remember in those days, most doctors were men. Most women preferred to have a women attend them during childbirth, but if anything went wrong they were in trouble without a doctor.. They had more midwives than we have today, but I think for the most part, they had no medical qualifications, just the experience of delivering babies. I lost my father in March, and amongst his possessions (which I have kept) is a birth control booklet, probably from St Augustines..... Mary On 26 September 2012 13:15, Patrick Callaghan <balcolyn@activ8.net.au>wrote: > Hi Mary > Many thanks for your reply, I guess it was just how things were, many > of those who died very young survived only a few hours > and twins seemed especially vulnerable. I have four children and four > grandchildren, all healthy and well, I wonder what the situation might > have been if I had lived in those times all the best Patrick > > -----Original Message----- > From: aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mary > Cunningham > Sent: Wednesday, 26 September 2012 11:16 AM > To: aus-nsw-sydney@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [ANS] Help Needed on infant death statistics > > Hi Patrick > > I think it was just "of those times" > I have had ancestors in Balmain since the early 1800's. Still have one > brother living there now. > My grandmother told me a story of how the nuns once came to their > house in Adolphus Street, and put ten pounds on the mantlepiece....to > feed the children, of which there were seven! > My grandfathers family were Roman Catholic Irish.. > It was during the great depression of the 1930's, but apart from the > depression years they always had work. > Childhood diseases like measles, mumps, whooping cough, etc; took more > children in those days, even in the wealthier suburbs of Sydney. > > Mary > > On 26 September 2012 10:09, Patrick Callaghan <balcolyn@activ8.net.au > >wrote: > > > Greetings listers > > > > I am sending this email to several mailing lists as I know that that > > there is a great deal of knowledge 'out there' > > > > > > > > Having reached my target of finding 1000 burials to, at least > > partially, recreate the lost burial register of the long disappeared > > Balmain > > > > Catholic cemetery I am now getting ready to publish my work (in > > November) > > > > > > > > Here is where I need some wisdom from listers and I understand that > > the figures I am using may not represent the perfect statistical > > base > > > > BUT > > > > amongst the 1000 burials I have found there are 258 children under > > the age of 5, that's 25% of the known burials and that seems very > > high to me > > > > so my question is, dear reader, what do you think??? > > > > The Balmain area was largely working class in the years the cemetery > > was open (1868 - 1902) is this figure representative of other > > working class > > > > areas of that time > > > > > > > > The figure of 258 is made up of 174 unfants, under the age of one > > and > > 84 under the age of 5, so one conclusion seems to be that if you > > made it > > > > to your first birthday your chance of a long life increased markedly > ????? > > > > > > I look forward to your thoughts > > > > Patrick Callaghan > > > > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post > > any reply...... Thank you! > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post > any reply...... Thank you! > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post > any reply...... Thank you! > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post any reply...... Thank you! ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My pleasure And yes there were many more complications in childbirth in those early years, which would account for the deaths of newborns. I think that perhaps even though they had work, many of them might not have been able to afford a doctor to attend each birth. I imagine the ratio between doctors and births would have been 1 doctor for every 20 births, particularly in areas like Balmain where there was a large catholic population. Remember in those days, most doctors were men. Most women preferred to have a women attend them during childbirth, but if anything went wrong they were in trouble without a doctor.. They had more midwives than we have today, but I think for the most part, they had no medical qualifications, just the experience of delivering babies. I lost my father in March, and amongst his possessions (which I have kept) is a birth control booklet, probably from St Augustines..... Mary On 26 September 2012 13:15, Patrick Callaghan <balcolyn@activ8.net.au>wrote: > Hi Mary > Many thanks for your reply, I guess it was just how things were, many of > those who died very young survived only a few hours > and twins seemed especially vulnerable. I have four children and four > grandchildren, all healthy and well, I wonder what the > situation might have been if I had lived in those times > all the best > Patrick > > -----Original Message----- > From: aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:aus-nsw-sydney-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mary Cunningham > Sent: Wednesday, 26 September 2012 11:16 AM > To: aus-nsw-sydney@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [ANS] Help Needed on infant death statistics > > Hi Patrick > > I think it was just "of those times" > I have had ancestors in Balmain since the early 1800's. Still have one > brother living there now. > My grandmother told me a story of how the nuns once came to their house in > Adolphus Street, and put ten pounds on the mantlepiece....to feed the > children, of which there were seven! > My grandfathers family were Roman Catholic Irish.. > It was during the great depression of the 1930's, but apart from the > depression years they always had work. > Childhood diseases like measles, mumps, whooping cough, etc; took more > children in those days, even in the wealthier suburbs of Sydney. > > Mary > > On 26 September 2012 10:09, Patrick Callaghan <balcolyn@activ8.net.au > >wrote: > > > Greetings listers > > > > I am sending this email to several mailing lists as I know that that > > there is a great deal of knowledge 'out there' > > > > > > > > Having reached my target of finding 1000 burials to, at least > > partially, recreate the lost burial register of the long disappeared > > Balmain > > > > Catholic cemetery I am now getting ready to publish my work (in > > November) > > > > > > > > Here is where I need some wisdom from listers and I understand that > > the figures I am using may not represent the perfect statistical base > > > > BUT > > > > amongst the 1000 burials I have found there are 258 children under the > > age of 5, that's 25% of the known burials and that seems very high to > > me > > > > so my question is, dear reader, what do you think??? > > > > The Balmain area was largely working class in the years the cemetery > > was open (1868 - 1902) is this figure representative of other working > > class > > > > areas of that time > > > > > > > > The figure of 258 is made up of 174 unfants, under the age of one and > > 84 under the age of 5, so one conclusion seems to be that if you made > > it > > > > to your first birthday your chance of a long life increased markedly > ????? > > > > > > I look forward to your thoughts > > > > Patrick Callaghan > > > > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post > > any reply...... Thank you! > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post any > reply...... Thank you! > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post any > reply...... Thank you! > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >