Dear Jan Noticed the recent e-mails re captured guns as war memorials, and although we have nothing on the St Marys memorial we thought that you may be interested in other captured trophies. The following extracts are from our recently released book World War 1 - Hawkesbury Heroes volume 2. by Rod & Wendy Gow & Val Birch This book is compiled of extracts from the Windsor & Richmond Gazette newspaper covering 1917-1919 (volume 1 covered 1914-1916) the datelines preceding the extract is the date of the newspaper the articles appeared in. Hope the following is of interest. Dateline - 7 March, 1919.... War Trophies Councillor J. E. McMahon, the retiring President of Colo Shire Council, has received an advice from Lieut-Col. L. J. Morshead, commanding the 33rd Battalion, regarding captured German guns to be presented to the district. The communication was addressed personally to Cr. J. E. McMahon, President of Kurrajong Shire, Kurrajong, and some doubt exists as to whether the trophies are for Colo Shire as a whole, or the Kurrajong portion only. Cr. McMahon has written Lieut-Col. Morshead pointing out that there is no Kurrajong Shire, and seeking further information. The following is an exact copy of the letter received .... France 27-10-18. Dear Sir, On behalf of all ranks of the 33rd Battalion, I ask of you the privilege to present to the Shire of Kurrajong the following war trophies captured by us during the summer operations of this year. Machine Gun No. 2564, captured at Accroche Wood, 8-8-18. Machine Gun No. 8341, captured near Bouchavesnes, 31-8-18. Application has been made for these trophies to be sent to Kurrajong, but it will be some considerable time before they reach you. Our first consideration has been that the achievements of the Battalion should be adequately represented in the Australian War Museum, and most of our trophies have been disposed of accordingly. While we have given the War Museum prior claim to any trophy presented elsewhere, I do not anticipate that they will need to avail themselves of it. Such a request would be granted only with the full consent of those cities and towns concerned. I trust that you will not deem the present of trophies under such conditions a doubtful compliment. I feel sure that you are as anxious as we are that the exhibits of the 33rd Battalion will be worthy of its achievements. It fills me with pride to tell you that your men have all proved themselves magnificent soldiers. They have covered themselves and Australia with glory. Kurrajong has been worthily represented. May I take this opportunity of expressing our very deep gratitude to the many people of Kurrajong for all their many kindnesses and their generous and thoughtful interest in our welfare and comfort. We appreciate all that they have done for us. Dateline - 16 May, 1919.... War Trophies During the time that he occupied the Presidential chair of Colo Shire Council, Councillor J. E. McMahon received a rather mystifying letter from Colonel Morshead, who commanded the 33rd Brigade, A.I.F. in France. The letter stated that two machine guns captured by the gallant 33rd had been allocated to Kurrajong Shire. Cr. McMahon was doubtful whether the trophies were intended for Colo Shire, or the Kurrajong district, which forms part of the Shire, so he wrote to Colonel Morshead in January last for more specific particulars. He has just received a reply, a copy of which we give below, and in which he speaks highly of the brave "Kurrajongs", one of whom, George Cartwright won the V.C. .... Bhurtpore Barracks, Tidworth, England, March 4, 1919. My Dear Councillor McMahon, your letter of January 17 reached me yesterday. When I allocated a proportion of the war trophies captured by the 33rd Battalion I had in mind the various centres from which my men enlisted. Practically the whole of one company came from your district, and they have always been known as "The Kurrajongs." They did magnificently, and the Battalion has always been very proud of them. One of them, Pte. George Cartwright won the V.C. I thought that as Kurrajong had been so worthily represented, the trophies should go to that town. We could not send trophies to all the places from which our men came, had the war lasted longer we should have been able to do so. Those trophies sent to you were for the Kurrajong district, and as to their disposal, I leave that entirely to you and your fellow citizens. The first quota of the Battalion for repatriation is in England, and should be back in Australia in 3 or 4 months. I left the Battalion last week, and am now Assistant Adjutant and Quarter-Master General of the A.I.F. in the United Kingdom. I was indeed exceedingly sorry to have left the Battalion, for even though it has now been practically broken up, I should have preferred to return with one of the Battalion drafts. It was a great honor and a privilege to have commanded the 33rd for three years, and having brought them from Australia I should have liked to have gone back with them. However, a soldier obeys orders. On my return to Australia I look forward to a trip to New England. I was in Armidale for two years, 1912-1913, so I know that part fairly well. I thank you very heartily for you exceedingly kind letter, and I reciprocate all you good wishes. Yours very sincerely, Leslie J. Morshead. Lieut.-Colonel. Dateline - 23 May, 1919.... Pte. George Cartwright V.C. Last week we referred briefly to Pte. George Cartwrights meritorious feat in winning the Victoria Cross. Additional particulars are now to hand. Though born and reared in the Hawkesbury district, Pte. Cartwright enlisted at Elsmore, near Inverell, over three years ago and served the whole of his time in France. He is 24 years of age and is exceedingly modest concerning his deeds at the war. The King decorated Pte. Cartwright with the Victoria Cross at Buckingham Palace on March 8 last. He was gassed at Villiers-Bretonneux and wounded at Messines and at Bony, while in action against the Hindenburg line. He won his distinction at Wood Road, south-west of Beauchavesnes, near St. Quentin on March 31 last year. When he landed from the Khyber last week, Pte. Cartwright was met at the wharf by the District Commandant and Mr. Fitzgerald, Minister for Health, who represented the N.S.W. Government, and conveyed by motor car to Anzac Buffet. He was cheered enthusiastically on arrival by the large crowd, after which he was bombarded by camera and press men. The routine order in possession of the brave young soldier gives particulars of the adventure that gained him his V.C. The order sets out that Pte. Cartwright had been awarded the V.C. for most conspicuous valor and devotion to duty on the morning of August 31, 1918, during the attack on Wood Road. Pte. Cartwright, it states, displayed exceptional gallantry and enterprise, and showed disregard of a most withering machine gun fire. Two companies were held up by a machine gun firing from the south-western edge of the wood. Without hesitation, Pte. Cartwright stood up, and walking towards the gun, fired his rifle from his shoulder. He shot No. 1 gunner. Another German manned the gun, and he killed him. A third German attempted to fire the gun, and Pte. Cartwright killed him also. He than threw a bomb at the post, and on its exploding, he rushed forward, captured the gun and nine Germans. Our line immediately rushed forward, loudly cheering. This magnificent deed had a most inspiring effect on the whole line, all strove to emulate his gallantry. The Field-Marshal, corps, divisional and brigade commanders desire that their congratulations be conveyed to Pte. Cartwright. The commanding officer also desires to congratulate him. Pte. Cartwright belonged to the 33rd Battalion, commanded by Lieut.-Colonel Leslie J. Morshead. A company of that Battalion is composed almost entirely of men from the Hawkesbury District, and they called themselves. "The Kurrajongs." They are reported to have done magnificently at the front, and the Battalion was exceedingly proud of them. Two German machine guns captured by the 33rd have been allocated to the Kurrajong District to commemorate the brave deeds of "The Kurrajongs" and in a letter to Councillor J. E. McMahon, J.P., Lieut.-Colonel Morshead states that they have been sent on. Dateline - 19 July, 1918.... German Gun for Riverstone That Riverstone should receive a war souvenir in the shape of a German machine gun is a distinction that few country towns can claim and many will envy. It seems that under certain circumstances men are able to claim captured enemy guns as war trophies, and Mr. Chas. Davis has received a communication from Lieut. Fred Hayward, who enlisted from Marsden Park, that he is putting in a claim for a German machine gun of the Maxim type, which was captured by Australians during the raid on Warueton near Lille on the night of the 3rd. or 4th. of last March. If the claim is allowed, Lieut. Hayward will present the gun to the people of Riverstone, to be placed in a public place, somewhere in the town. The gun is being sent to Australia through the Australian War Museum marked for presentation to the Riverstone people by Lieut. Fred Hayward, and the authorities have been notified that Mr. Davis is to make claim on the peoples behalf. Lieut. Hayward says it should be a fine souvenir and he thinks it would be worth putting in a case, but where it would be placed would of course be a matter for the people to decide. He suggests that the railway station would be a suitable place. The gun is in thorough working order, and has, as a matter of fact, been used by the Australians against the Germans, and has quite a history attached to its capture. Dateline - 19 December, 1919.... Captured Howitzer as Memorial The war authorities have intimated to Col. J. J. Paine, commanding the 5th. Battalion of the 20th. Regiment, their intention to present to his unit a German 42 Howitzer gun, which was captured by the 20th. Battalion of the A.I.F. This large gun will be despatched by the Dept. of Defence to Col. Paine and then the question of the town in which it will be placed will have to be decided. As Col. Paines command extends right out to Mudgee, Bathurst, Blayney and Lithgow, these parts may have claims to its custody. Seeing, however, that the town of Windsor is the place where the old battalion (of which the 5th. of the 20th. is now successor), was formed over 60 years ago, and that the old town is so closely identified with the early settlement of Australia, it would not seem unreasonable that Windsor should have first claim. Jan & Peter Herivel wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Jan & Peter Herivel [mailto:herivels@pnc.com.au] > Sent: Thursday, 24 October 2002 9:11 AM > To: AUS-AIF Rootsweb; Greg Harper > Subject: RE: [AUS-NSW-PENRITH] Penrith and St Marys War Memorials > > Hi all > > The guns appear to be removed by council at various times, St Marys are > supposed to have been moved when the Great Western Highway was widened and > Penrith at the time the rotunda was demolished. The time frame for the > Penrith guns appears to have been somewhere between Nov 11, 1972 and Anzac > Day 1973. I have narrowed it down to this time based on photographs in the > Penrith Press for ceremonies on this day. > > I work part time at Penrith library so have checked archival records etc but > there doesn't appear to be any records on this. The archivist has also been > asking old council employees from parks > and gardens but no success.... So > the hunt goes on for the date of removal and also the fate of all of the > guns. In the next couple of weeks, a new page will go up on the Penrith > City ehistory war section on the war trophies (guns) and hopefully this > might assist in solving this riddle. > > Best wishes > > Jan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Harper [mailto:geharper@froggy.com.au] > Sent: Thursday, 17 October 2002 9:24 PM > To: AUS-NSW-PENRITH-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [AUS-NSW-PENRITH] Penrith and St Marys War Memorials > > In regards to Jan's question... I wonder if the removal of the guns was done > by council and if so, is there access to council records which may describe > the removal of the guns? What council records are generally available for > public access? > > Regards, > > Greg > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jan & Peter Herivel" <herivels@pnc.com.au> > To: <AUS-NSW-PENRITH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 9:03 AM > Subject: [AUS-NSW-PENRITH] Penrith and St Marys War Memorials > > > Hi all > > > > Does anyone know when the guns were removed from the Penrith and St Marys > > War Memorials? The Penrith rotunda was demolished sometime between 11 Nov > > 1972 (Remembrance Day) and Anzac Day 1973. > > > > Were the guns still here at that time? The St Marys guns were removed > > sometime between Jan 1960 and 1981. Does anyone have photos of the guns > at > > either of these memorials? > > > > > > If you can answer yes to any of the above questions, you are a treasure > and > > can assist greatly in filling in some of the blanks. Looking forward to > > hearing from any one on this matter > > > > Best wishes > > > > Jan > > > >