Thanks for this Jennie. It accords perfectly with what it says in that notice of his death. Of course WE have the problem of ascertaining the extent to which such statements were factual, and the extent to which there was a bit of family 'puffery' involved. Not an easy thing to do, with our family egos on the line there. ha ha. For example, given John Macarthur's well-known antipathy to socially mixing with his 'inferiors', I would wonder to what extent a convict / ex-convict such as Joseph HARPUR would have been a 'manager' of Macarthur's business. But of course I/we might be giving a modern meaning to the words "manage" or "manager" which they did not have back then; so that he may have had many convicts 'in charge' of certain FACETS of his business, in which case they might have been 'managers' of those facets or aspects of his business. I guess though, that where the MacArthurs are concerned, any historian who is working on / has worked on their family papers, might be able to discern some of this for us, as I expect that they would have lists of convicts who worked for them, etc. In fact, thinking along those lines, things like the 1828 Census could also assist in this, by indicating the numbers and names and trades perhaps of convicts who were employed by the Macarthurs. (I no longer have access to the 1828 Census so I am unable to look that up. One day I must find the money to buy it on CD-rom.) Any thoughts, anyone? Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jennie Rediger" <jennie1950@hotmail.com> ...My grandmother was Reme Irene Harpur, gt gt grandaughter of Joseph Harpur. > Ray, I heard on the family grapevine years back that when John McArthur went back to England and his wife Elizabeth stayed here in Australia that Joseph lived at Elizabeth Farm and helped Elizabeth with the running of the place. I was also told once, that Sarah (Chidley) helped with the running of the female factory. ...

Ray, do not knock the family legends there is always a kernel of truth hidden away inside the legend. The only clue I had to my great great grandfather was my Dad saying he was "an old Irishman who taught school", not much to go on and it took me nearly five year to uncover the whole story but it was a truly great story and he turned out to be the first headmaster/owner of a private school which is still in operation today. As to the relationship of your ancestor with the Macarthur's it is probably fairly close to the actual story even if it has been puffed up a bit. John Macarthur may not have had much time for the "lower classes" but he left his wife to look after his interests while he was overseas, which seems to have been a common occurrence, so I suggest you forget John and concentrate on Elizabeth Macarthur as she was a very able woman and would not have employed anyone who could not do a job properly. If possible get hold of a book "Leonora" by Bethia Foote, it is put out as a novel but is the story of her ancestor although the names in the book have been changed. It is a real eye opener as to the relationships of employer and employed back in the convict era. Patricia Thanks for this Jennie. It accords perfectly with what it says in that notice of his death. Of course WE have the problem of ascertaining the extent to which such statements were factual, and the extent to which there was a bit of family 'puffery' involved. Not an easy thing to do, with our family egos on the line there. ha ha. Any thoughts, anyone? Ray

Hi again Patricia. Please be assured that I was not knocking family legends at all; because like you I believe very strongly that they will frequently contain that kernel of truth. But around that kernel is frequently that puffery and egoism. Like you, I had a similar situation with an ancestor of mine who came out here and was supposed to have been an ADC to the Governor, who was later given a grant of land for his services. The kernels of truth were that he was soldier and that he received a land grant. When I discovered those correct facts, my research zoomed ahead -- until the next brick wall. LOL. He was a Private for his entire military career, and was never ADC to anyone. He received his grant of land -- one of the Veterans' Grants at Maitland --- but not for his services to the governor, but rather because the governor upon recommending to Britain the disbandment of the Royal NSW Veteran Corps because they were a bad influence on the CONVICTS!!!!; and were so bad that it was not worth paying their return passage to Britain, but cheaper to bribe them to stay in NSW with small land grants. (That can be found in HRA (Historical Records of Australia). BTW: Harpur is not my ancestor. I was interested in the connection between Joseph and the well-known Aussie poet and author Charles HARPUR. Thank you for the recommendation of Foote's work, but I have found to my cost in the past that reading historical fiction can give me false understandings of the facts of a former period. I prefer to read the original source documents that such authors might use, including contemporary newspapers; and quality journal, encyclopaedic, and dictionary of biography entries. However, I do understand that many people do not have the interest to do it that way, and can be quite content with a fictional author's viewpoint. I expect that there might be quite a few on the list who will be grateful for your recommendation, though. Regards: Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia" <adsl4805@tsn.cc> ... Ray, do not knock the family legends there is always a kernel of truth hidden away inside the legend. ...

Ray, I think you misunderstood my comment about the book by Bethia Foote, what I said was it was put out as a novel, I did not say it was historical fiction as it is not historical fiction it is a true story. The words I used are below. If possible get hold of a book "Leonora" by Bethia Foote, it is put out as a novel but is the story of her ancestor although the names in the book have been changed. It is a real eye opener as to the relationships of employer and employed back in the convict era. Patricia Hi again Patricia. Please be assured that I was not knocking family legends at all; because like you I believe very strongly that they will frequently contain that kernel of truth. But around that kernel is frequently that puffery and egoism. Thank you for the recommendation of Foote's work, but I have found to my cost in the past that reading historical fiction can give me false understandings of the facts of a former period. I prefer to read the original source documents that such authors might use, including contemporary newspapers; and quality journal, encyclopaedic, and dictionary of biography entries. However, I do understand that many people do not have the interest to do it that way, and can be quite content with a fictional author's viewpoint. I expect that there might be quite a few on the list who will be grateful for your recommendation, though. Regards: Ray