Good Morning List, While gathering information to index into www.ryersonindex.org from some 1880's Sydney Morning Heralds I found other information and for some time now Max has been transcribing these to the Rootsweb Sydney List. This list has a Windsor entry for renewal of a liquor license and may interest a lister here. Sincerely, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Max Bancroft" <maxwell1@bigpond.net.au> To: <aus-nsw-sydney@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 9:25 PM Subject: [ANS] Court News 31st of January 1883 CENTRAL POLICE COURT Sydney Morning Herald 31st of January1883 Mr CLARKE, S.M., presided on the Bench in the Charge Court yesterday. Fourteen cases of drunkenness were dealt with. SARAH SELBRIDGE on a charge of having no visible means of support, was sentenced to be imprisoned for one month. JOHN McANDREW on a charge of having used obscene language in George Street West was fined 40 shillings, or in default imprisonment for 14 days; and on a charge of having assaulted a constable in the execution of his duty was sentenced to be imprisoned for one month, in addition to the previous sentence. MARY BURNS a child aged 11 years, was charged with being in the habit of wandering in company with persons of bad repute. The arresting constable stated that he had seen the child for some time past "knocking about" with thieves and prostitutes. The mother was a drunkard, and not fit to have charge of the child. The child said that if she went home she would be knocked about and killed. The mother was present in court and her presence confirmed the statement of the police. The child was sent to the Biloela Industrial School. LEO LEWIS was charged with having stolen a saddle and bridle valued at 1 pound 15 shillings, the property of WILLIAM ROCHE. On Monday evening the accused was seen in possession of the saddle and bridle, which were recognised in court by William Roche as his property, stolen from the Dog and Duck Hotel. The prisoner was sentenced to be imprisoned four months. Mr. DILLON, S.M., presided on the Bench in the Summons Court. A number of minor cases were dealt with. SIMON FULL was charged with having, on the 22nd of January, in George Street sold to different persons enclosed packets, some of which contained goods and others of which contained money, the said packets being sold by chance; such sale being for the benefit of the said defendant, and not for raising funds in aid of any elementary or charitable institution of a public character, contrary to the Act for the prevention of Lotteries. The defendant pleaded guilty. Mr. Dillon stated that it was unnecessary to have inserted in the information the sentence with regard to charitable institutions, as it was quite surplus matter, and occurred in a different section to that under which the information had been brought. Inspector ANDERSON stated that the information was an exact copy of one which had been held good in a similar case by the Supreme Court. Mr. Dillon told the defendant that he had rendered himself liable to a fine of 100 pounds, but as the defendant had stated that he had broken the law in ignorance, he would only inflict a penalty of 1 pound. QUARTERLY LICENSING MEETING Mr. Dillon (chairman), Messes, Clarke, Marsh, Crane, and MacIntosh, L.M.s presided on the bench yesterday, at the quarterly meeting of the Central Licensing Court. JOHN MARSHALL on the information of Sub Inspector LARKINS, was charged with Sunday selling. He pleaded guilty, and was fined 3 pounds with costs. Renewals of licenses were granted to the following:-- GEORGE KING, 18 King Street GEORGE LITTLE, George Street Windsor SAMUEL MILLIKIN, Marrickville EARNEST H. FAREY, Woollahra A colonial wine license was refused to GEORGE GUMPERTS Victoria Road, Marrickville. Publicans licenses were refused to the following:-- BRIDGET TAYLER, for a hotel in Pitt Street, opposite to St. Andrews school; A.K. ECKMAN, for a hotel, George Street West and Abercrombie Street; BARTHOLOMEW MALONEY , for the same; THOMAS HARRIS, for a hotel in Goulburn Street; WILLIAM BULLFIN, for a hotel at Five Dock; THOMAS JONES, for a hotel in Brighton Stree, Petersham; MICHAEL HAYES, for a hotel at Five Dock; THOMAS HANLEY, for a hotel at Double Bay; Regards Max Bancroft ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-NSW-SYDNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message E-mail message checked by Internet Security (6.0.0.386) Database version: 5.13740 http://www.pctools.com/en/internet-security/ E-mail message checked by Internet Security (6.0.0.386) Database version: 5.13740 http://www.pctools.com/en/internet-security/

While gathering information to be indexed into www.ryersonindex.org I found the following events relating to the Hawkesbury List area in the Sydney Morning Herald. DEATHS Thursday 2 February 1843 - On Monday, the 30th ultimo, at Caddie, near Windsor, Elizabeth Arnold, relict of the late Dr. Arnold, aged seventy-five years. Friday 3 February 1843 - On Monday, the 30th ultimo, at Caddie, near Windsor, Elizabeth Arndell, relict of the late Dr. Arndell, aged seventy-five years. Monday 6 February - On Saturday, the 28th January, at Bathurst, Ann, the wife of Mr. S. Bray, tailor and draper, after a short but severe affliction, leaving a large circle of relatives and friends to deplore their loss. Tuesday 21 February 1843 - At the residence of his Father, Bona Lista, Paterson, on Thursday, 11th instant, Samuel James Phillips, in his sixteenth year. There was only one birth notice this month Wednesday 15 February 1843 - BIRTH. At Brisbane Water, on the 9th instant, Mrs. Alfred Holden, of a daughter. Patricia

While gathering information to be indexed into www.ryersonindex.org I found the following deaths relating to the Hawkesbury List area in the Sydney Morning Herald. Monday 23 January 1843 - Killed near Tazeen, on the 10th January, 1842, during the disastrous retreat of the British force from Cabool to Jellalabad, Lieutenant William George White, Acting Adjutant of H. M. 44th regt., brother of Mr. J. C White, of Pickering, Hunter's River, and eldest son of the late Surgeon A. White, of the same corps. Lieutenant White was lately in this colony on leave of absence for the benefit of his health ; but learning the probability of a war in India, he hastened to rejoin his regiment, and reached Cabool a short time before the insurrection broke out in November, 1841. Thursday 26 January 1843 - On the 23rd instant, George Sylvester, infant son of Mr. W. Walker, Lower George- street, aged three months and twenty-three days. Patricia

While gathering information to be indexed into www.ryersonindex.org I found the following births relating to the Hawkesbury List area in the Sydney Morning Herald. Thursday 5 January 1843 - At her residence, at Windsor, on the 25th ultimo, the lady of Robert Fitzgerald, Esq., J. P., of a daughter. At Maitland, on the 2nd instant, the lady of Captain Day, 99th Regt., J.P., of a daughter Friday 6 January 1843 - At the Parsonage, Penrith, on Wednesday, the 4th instant, the lady of the Rev. R. K. Sconce, of a daughter. Thursday 19 January 1843 - At Wilmington, near Windsor, on Tuesday, 17th instant, Mrs. Josiah Betts, of a daughter. Friday 27 January 1843 - At West Maitland, on the 24th instant, Mrs. David Dickson, of a son Patricia

Good Morning List, In recent times tidying up some missing days from information gathered to index into www.ryersonindex.org I found the following death and funeral notices in the Sydney Morning Herald which may interest a lister. 10 Sep 1881. James Harrower HUTCHISON died on 2 Sep 1881 at the residence of his son MUSWELLBROOK, 71 years. 12 Sep 1881. Rev Benjamin CHAPMAN died on 10 Sep 1881 at WINDSOR, of STANMORE. General Secretary Australian Wesleyan Foreign Missionary Society. 62 years. 14 Dec 1886. Margaret GRAVELEY died 10 Dec 1886 at BALACLVAVA VICTORIA, daughter of Charles & Elizabeth CRIDLAND, HUNTER RIVER. Aged 37. 14 Dec 1886. Crawford Robert BEDWELL, Auctioneer died 13 Dec 1886 at GLEBE POINT, aged 44. Funeral 15 Dec 1886 GLEBE POINT 8 o'clock, for the railway then RICHMOND. Walter STEWART. Bathurst Street. Funeral Director. 15 Dec 1886. Further funeral notices for Crawford Robert BEDWELL and an addition notice by Zetland Lodge which says he was to be buried in the family vault. The Ryerson Index is always looking for indexers and material to index. Contact me off list, or by using the Contact Ryerson Index Inc icon on the main page of the website if you can help with either. Indexing is done at home, material arriving and leaving by email. Sincerely,Bill E-mail message checked by Internet Security (6.0.0.386) Database version: 5.13700 http://www.pctools.com/en/internet-security/

Esq as a postnominal indicates that the person is a land-owner (is esquired of an estate - is a squire) and is an honorific for magistrates and the like. Its one rung up the ladder from a plain Mister. Similarly a Reverend who has an degree is slightly above the general plebs. I'm not sure who gets to go into dinner first but they, and their lady wives, both would out-rank a plain Mister and his Mrs. Regards

Maureen, I've wondered about the different wording in the birth notices myself and hope someone can shed light on this difference in wording. In the 1840s we were still within the time when convicts were being transported from the UK leaving a spouse and children behind who were often not in a position to follow the convict. I've often wondered if "wife of" meant legally married in an Australian church, "lady of'" meant married in the UK and plain "Mrs" meant no-one was sure where they were married or not. Just a thought. My first ancestors in Australia were not legally married because she was Roman Catholic and he was Church of England but they lived together for most of their lives and the children all had his surname. It is an interesting problem with the wording of the announcements isn't it? Patricia Hi Patricia, Many thanks for these births and deaths. Reading the birth notices, I've noticed that some women are termed "the lady of" or "the wife of" or just plain "Mrs." I was wondering does anyone know what was the difference of these ladies' status? I would assume that it separated the 'classes' but I could possibly be very wrong. Perhaps someone would be able to explain for us. Cheers, Maureen (Melbourne) > > 15 December 1842 - On Sunday, the 11th instant, at Corunna Cottage, Raymond > Terrace, the lady of T. Digby Miller, Esq., of a daughter. > > > 16 December 1842 - At Mudgee, on Friday, the 9th instant, Mrs. N. P. > Bayley, of a daughter. > > > > 22 December 1842 - At Newcastle, on the 17th instant, Mrs. Croasdill, of a > daughter. > Patricia > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-NSW-HILLS-HAWKESBURY-HUNTER-VALLEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-NSW-HILLS-HAWKESBURY-HUNTER-VALLEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Patricia, Many thanks for these births and deaths. Reading the birth notices, I've noticed that some women are termed "the lady of" or "the wife of" or just plain "Mrs." I was wondering does anyone know what was the difference of these ladies' status? I would assume that it separated the 'classes' but I could possibly be very wrong. Perhaps someone would be able to explain for us. Cheers, Maureen (Melbourne) > > 15 December 1842 - On Sunday, the 11th instant, at Corunna Cottage, Raymond > Terrace, the lady of T. Digby Miller, Esq., of a daughter. > > > 16 December 1842 - At Mudgee, on Friday, the 9th instant, Mrs. N. P. > Bayley, of a daughter. > > > > 22 December 1842 - At Newcastle, on the 17th instant, Mrs. Croasdill, of a > daughter. > Patricia > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-NSW-HILLS-HAWKESBURY-HUNTER-VALLEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

While gathering information to be indexed into www.ryersonindex.org I found the following deaths relating to the Hawkesbury List area in the Sydney Morning Herald. 10 December 1842 - On Thursday, the 8th of December, at the Parsonage, Windsor, William John, the infant son of the Rev. Henry T. Stiles. 22 December 1842 - At Tocal, Paterson, on the 19th instant, after a lingering illness, which she bore with Christian resignation, Sarah Maude, the beloved wife of Richard Cobden, Esq. 27 December 1842 - At the Paterson River, on the 24th November, after a few days' illness, J. G. Dawson, Esq., late of Kilbride, county Meath, Ireland. At Denham Court, near Bathurst, on the 18th instant, Mrs. Elizabeth Bonnor, in the 49th year of her age, after a long and painful illness, deeply regretted by all her friends and relations. Patricia

While gathering information to be indexed into www.ryersonindex.org I found the following marriages relating to the Hawkesbury List area in the Sydney Morning Herald. 8 December 1842 - By Special License, on Thursday, the 1st instant, by the Rev. William M'Intyre, M.A., Mr. Charles Cathrow, of West Maitland, to Ann, fourth daughter of John Forster, Esq., late of Alnwick, in the county of Northumberland, England. 12 December 1842 - On Wednesday, the 7th instant, at Grantham House, Bathurst, by special license, by the Rev. K. D. Smythe, Richard Machattie, Esq., Surgeon, to Margaret Susan Australia, eldest daughter of Captain John Brown, of Brownlea, Bathurst. 27 December 1842 - At Trinity Church, Bathurst, by special license, on the 23rd instant, by the Rev. C. Woodward, B. C. L., John Jones, Esq., of Wellington, to Maria, relict of the late A. Levingstone, Esq., Green Swamp, Bathurst. Patricia

While gathering information to be indexed into www.ryersonindex.org I found the following births relating to the Hawkesbury List area in the Sydney Morning Herald. 15 December 1842 - On Sunday, the 11th instant, at Corunna Cottage, Raymond Terrace, the lady of T. Digby Miller, Esq., of a daughter. On Tuesday, the 12th instant, at the Parsonage, Newcastle, the lady of the Rev. C. Pleydell N. Wilton, M.A., of a daughter. At Neotsfield, Hunter's River, on the 10th instant, the lady of Henry Dangar, Esq., of a daughter. 16 December 1842 - At Mudgee, on Friday, the 9th instant, Mrs. N. P. Bayley, of a daughter. 22 December 1842 - At Newcastle, on the 17th instant, Mrs. Croasdill, of a daughter. Patricia

Hi Ray I have a feeling that Joseph Harpur, even though he was a convict, came from pretty top stock before he was transported. Another family story, which I have tried to follow up on, but can't...for legal reasons etc....was that Joseph was of Royal Blood. Story goes one of the Princes of England of that time had several children to "a commoner" lady???? and the Royals werent sure what to do with these children, so they gave each the name of HARPUR and sent them to different countries all over the world. Many years ago, I read about this same story, referring to a HARPUR in America who they suspected was of Royal blood, it was before I was into family history and I didn't bother to keep the story !! If you go back through the Austalian Harpur family they always wanted to achieve for better, Joseph and Sarah's children were educated, and Charles was a poet, Joseph Jehosephat was a politician for Patricks Plains etc. I can only say that this proudness must have carried on through to my grandmother, she was a very proud lady, she would get up every morning, even when she was living in the Nursing Home,and in her eighties, and put her makeup on her face, and always dress with beads to match her dress etc. And Just to end with a bit of trivia,did you know that our rellie, on Lewis Australia Harpur's line was the late newsreader Jim Ange (Son of Don Angel)l. I remember he used to visit my Nana and family with his family when he was small. I have many tales I could tell you about our Harpur family......mostly all factual too... Cheers from Jennie in Northern NSW > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:50:28 +1000 > From: "Ray" <ray15@optusnet.com.au> > Subject: Re: [HHHV] HARPUR & the MACARTHURs > To: <aus-nsw-hills-hawkesbury-hunter-valley@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <19579484AD1D459C849454E5E566696C@linda> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Thanks for this Jennie. It accords perfectly with what it says in that > notice of his death. > > Of course WE have the problem of ascertaining the extent to which such > statements were factual, and the extent to which there was a bit of family > 'puffery' involved. Not an easy thing to do, with our family egos on the > line there. ha ha. > > For example, given John Macarthur's well-known antipathy to socially mixing > with his 'inferiors', I would wonder to what extent a convict / ex-convict > such as Joseph HARPUR would have been a 'manager' of Macarthur's business. > > _________________________________________________________________ Looking to move this spring? With all the lastest places, searching has never been easier. Look now! http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/157631292/direct/01/

Ray, I think you misunderstood my comment about the book by Bethia Foote, what I said was it was put out as a novel, I did not say it was historical fiction as it is not historical fiction it is a true story. The words I used are below. If possible get hold of a book "Leonora" by Bethia Foote, it is put out as a novel but is the story of her ancestor although the names in the book have been changed. It is a real eye opener as to the relationships of employer and employed back in the convict era. Patricia Hi again Patricia. Please be assured that I was not knocking family legends at all; because like you I believe very strongly that they will frequently contain that kernel of truth. But around that kernel is frequently that puffery and egoism. Thank you for the recommendation of Foote's work, but I have found to my cost in the past that reading historical fiction can give me false understandings of the facts of a former period. I prefer to read the original source documents that such authors might use, including contemporary newspapers; and quality journal, encyclopaedic, and dictionary of biography entries. However, I do understand that many people do not have the interest to do it that way, and can be quite content with a fictional author's viewpoint. I expect that there might be quite a few on the list who will be grateful for your recommendation, though. Regards: Ray

Hi again Patricia. Please be assured that I was not knocking family legends at all; because like you I believe very strongly that they will frequently contain that kernel of truth. But around that kernel is frequently that puffery and egoism. Like you, I had a similar situation with an ancestor of mine who came out here and was supposed to have been an ADC to the Governor, who was later given a grant of land for his services. The kernels of truth were that he was soldier and that he received a land grant. When I discovered those correct facts, my research zoomed ahead -- until the next brick wall. LOL. He was a Private for his entire military career, and was never ADC to anyone. He received his grant of land -- one of the Veterans' Grants at Maitland --- but not for his services to the governor, but rather because the governor upon recommending to Britain the disbandment of the Royal NSW Veteran Corps because they were a bad influence on the CONVICTS!!!!; and were so bad that it was not worth paying their return passage to Britain, but cheaper to bribe them to stay in NSW with small land grants. (That can be found in HRA (Historical Records of Australia). BTW: Harpur is not my ancestor. I was interested in the connection between Joseph and the well-known Aussie poet and author Charles HARPUR. Thank you for the recommendation of Foote's work, but I have found to my cost in the past that reading historical fiction can give me false understandings of the facts of a former period. I prefer to read the original source documents that such authors might use, including contemporary newspapers; and quality journal, encyclopaedic, and dictionary of biography entries. However, I do understand that many people do not have the interest to do it that way, and can be quite content with a fictional author's viewpoint. I expect that there might be quite a few on the list who will be grateful for your recommendation, though. Regards: Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia" <adsl4805@tsn.cc> ... Ray, do not knock the family legends there is always a kernel of truth hidden away inside the legend. ...

Ray, do not knock the family legends there is always a kernel of truth hidden away inside the legend. The only clue I had to my great great grandfather was my Dad saying he was "an old Irishman who taught school", not much to go on and it took me nearly five year to uncover the whole story but it was a truly great story and he turned out to be the first headmaster/owner of a private school which is still in operation today. As to the relationship of your ancestor with the Macarthur's it is probably fairly close to the actual story even if it has been puffed up a bit. John Macarthur may not have had much time for the "lower classes" but he left his wife to look after his interests while he was overseas, which seems to have been a common occurrence, so I suggest you forget John and concentrate on Elizabeth Macarthur as she was a very able woman and would not have employed anyone who could not do a job properly. If possible get hold of a book "Leonora" by Bethia Foote, it is put out as a novel but is the story of her ancestor although the names in the book have been changed. It is a real eye opener as to the relationships of employer and employed back in the convict era. Patricia Thanks for this Jennie. It accords perfectly with what it says in that notice of his death. Of course WE have the problem of ascertaining the extent to which such statements were factual, and the extent to which there was a bit of family 'puffery' involved. Not an easy thing to do, with our family egos on the line there. ha ha. Any thoughts, anyone? Ray

You are welcome Jennie, I am finding these notices in the early papers very interesting for the detail to give in many of the notices. Patricia Thank You Patricia for the info on the Harpur family. My grandmother was Reme Irene Harpur, gt gt grandaughter of Joseph Harpur. Ray, I heard on the family grapevine years back that when John McArthur went back to England and his wife Elizabeth stayed here in Australia that Joseph lived at Elizabeth Farm and helped Elizabeth with the running of the place. I was also told once, that Sarah (Chidley) helped with the running of the female factory. Cheers from Jennie in Thunderbolt Country Northern New South Wales. _________________________________________________________________ Use Messenger in your Hotmail inbox Find out how here http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=823454 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-NSW-HILLS-HAWKESBURY-HUNTER-VALLEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for this Jennie. It accords perfectly with what it says in that notice of his death. Of course WE have the problem of ascertaining the extent to which such statements were factual, and the extent to which there was a bit of family 'puffery' involved. Not an easy thing to do, with our family egos on the line there. ha ha. For example, given John Macarthur's well-known antipathy to socially mixing with his 'inferiors', I would wonder to what extent a convict / ex-convict such as Joseph HARPUR would have been a 'manager' of Macarthur's business. But of course I/we might be giving a modern meaning to the words "manage" or "manager" which they did not have back then; so that he may have had many convicts 'in charge' of certain FACETS of his business, in which case they might have been 'managers' of those facets or aspects of his business. I guess though, that where the MacArthurs are concerned, any historian who is working on / has worked on their family papers, might be able to discern some of this for us, as I expect that they would have lists of convicts who worked for them, etc. In fact, thinking along those lines, things like the 1828 Census could also assist in this, by indicating the numbers and names and trades perhaps of convicts who were employed by the Macarthurs. (I no longer have access to the 1828 Census so I am unable to look that up. One day I must find the money to buy it on CD-rom.) Any thoughts, anyone? Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jennie Rediger" <jennie1950@hotmail.com> ...My grandmother was Reme Irene Harpur, gt gt grandaughter of Joseph Harpur. > Ray, I heard on the family grapevine years back that when John McArthur went back to England and his wife Elizabeth stayed here in Australia that Joseph lived at Elizabeth Farm and helped Elizabeth with the running of the place. I was also told once, that Sarah (Chidley) helped with the running of the female factory. ...

Thank You Patricia for the info on the Harpur family. My grandmother was Reme Irene Harpur, gt gt grandaughter of Joseph Harpur. Ray, I heard on the family grapevine years back that when John McArthur went back to England and his wife Elizabeth stayed here in Australia that Joseph lived at Elizabeth Farm and helped Elizabeth with the running of the place. I was also told once, that Sarah (Chidley) helped with the running of the female factory. Cheers from Jennie in Thunderbolt Country Northern New South Wales. _________________________________________________________________ Use Messenger in your Hotmail inbox Find out how here http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=823454

You are very welcome Ray and it is so exciting to find an unknown fact about an ancestor. Bill found an entry, in a much later paper about my ancestor, and I can't thank him enough for all the great work he is doing as back indexing co-ordinator for the Ryerson Index. Patricia Thanks again Patricia. This entry below would appear to be the death of the father of aussie poet and author: Charles HARPUR. Thanks yet again. Regards: Ray

I'm happy this report was of interest to you, and very glad you have the name of his mother, as whenever I read the Births notices I feel that the name of the mother should be included in these reports not just as "wife" or "lady of" the husband. Thanks for your comment as knowing they are finding a home makes transcribing the entries for this List worthwhile. Patricia The Ebsworth information is of interest as Henry E L Ebsworth was the son mentioned below, born to Thomas Lindsay Ebsworth and Harriette Matcham. cheers Joanne