Hi John I don't know whether this site may be of any help for you for Co Armagh, but may be worth a try. http://www.rootsireland.ie/ You can join to view but need to buy credits to actually buy the record if you find any you are interested in. I know they have increased their price in the last 12 months but haven't used it during this time. Cheers Joan Hello everyone, In 1903, a Sydney betting shop owner offering attractive odds collected a large sum in wagers on the Melbourne Cup. After the race, the winning punters gathered merrily outside his shop. Life was good. Then they were told there would be no payout that day and joy turned to rage, for they correctly suspected the owner had fled with their treasure. The shop was wrecked, an employee in it was lucky to escape alive and the police had to restore order. Sydney's newspapers spread the story and the state premier promised the law would do its job. Arrest warrants were issued, but the two culprits named were never found. Until now. I have inherited a collection of family papers that is helping me uncover the details of this incident, and am researching and writing a book about the lives of the people involved in it. The betting shop riot is just one element in a family saga of fame and wealth, sexual dalliances with huge consequences and lucrative illegal gambling. I will gladly share more of this story with genealogists whose research coincides with mine and who can help me with details. There was a circle of people in Sydney who knew all about the great Melbourne Cup heist and enjoyed inside jokes about it for years. I'm hoping more of their letters and postcards to each other will have survived. Below are details of people with connections to the story. I am not suggesting that all are implicated in a crime; most are friends, relatives or associates of the guilty parties, or their descendants. I have also given some details of their lives to help with identification. Almost all lived in the Sydney area, although some also spent time elsewhere. Here is an alphabetical list of the surnames: ALLARD, BRADLEY, BRANDTMAN, CAMPBELL, CHOISY, COUSINS, CURTIN, DAVIES, FARMER, HICKEY, MOONEY, HYLAND, JAEDE, JOHNSON, SHORTEL, SUSSMILCH, WANGENHEIM, WISEMAN, WOLSCH. Below are further details about these people. I would be very pleased to be in touch with any descendants of these families or genealogists with a research interest in them. Brothers Thomas SHORTEL and Sydney Walter SHORTEL (also spelled Shortell, Shortal, Shortall and even Shortle or Shortill), born in Sydney 1869 and 1875. Parents Thomas SHORTELL (c. 1845-1886), a tailor, and Teresa CAMPBELL (c. 1849-1880), both born in the British Isles, lived in Sydney most of their lives and died there. A third brother, William SHORTAL, a shearer, died in Blackall, Qld., in 1893, aged 25. I have a small photo that could be of Thomas (Senior) and Teresa and a matching photo of Drumcree Church in Portadown, Northern Ireland, which I suspect meant something to Teresa's family. Does anyone know of a way to look up births/baptisms in County Armagh without having to book an air ticket to Belfast? Margaret CAMPBELL (c. 1842-1911; sister of Teresa above). First husband was Felix CHOISY, tailor, died Sydney 1875; they had a daughter, Mary BRANDTMAN. Second husband was Richard MOONEY (1823-1915), also a tailor. They had three children, Beatrice MOONEY (born c. 1880), Margaret DAVIES (born c. 1882) and Edward MOONEY (born c. 1884). Gustavus (Gus) WANGENHEIM (c. 1869-1910), a business associate of Thomas Shortel's. An inventor. His father of the same name was a well-known hotelier and businessman in Sydney. His mother, Elizabeth WANGENHEIM, was herself a presence in business and city affairs. Florence Josephine HYLAND (c. 1874-1901), daughter of Matthew HYLAND (c. 1844-1878) and Anna HICKEY. Florence died of tuberculosis at Springwood in the Blue Mountains at the age of 27. She never married but, in 1893 at the age of 22, gave birth to a baby that died after three weeks. She had a sister, Julia Constance HYLAND, who married William Walter FARMER in 1899. Jane Victoria BRADLEY (born Melbourne 1870, died Sydney 1894), daughter of Charles Francis BRADLEY (c. 1828-1911) and Louisa WISEMAN, who divorced in 1875, after which Louisa married Arthur NICHOLLS in Sydney. Jane Victoria Bradley died in childbirth in Sydney in 1894, but the child, Victoria Louisa BRADLEY, survived and later became known as Victoria JOHNSON after her adoption by an aunt, Annie JOHNSON, wife of William Henry JOHNSON. Jane Victoria Bradley had a brother, Charles Francis BRADLEY (same name as his father; born Melbourne 1868) who also moved to the Sydney area and had several children. Christian Bernhard SUSSMILCH, music professor (1829-1905), who married Anna Emilie MERKLE in Sydney in 1869. They had six children who survived to adulthood and this very musical family is well documented in public trees on Ancestry.com. One daughter, Pauline Maryann SUSSMILCH (1871-1950), married Thomas SHORTEL in 1896, and was his wife at the time of the Melbourne Cup incident. Another daughter, Emma Emilie SUSSMILCH, married Horace Bateley ALLARD, and they had two daughters. Dora Anna WOLSCH (1869-1951), who married Johannes Heinrich JAEDE, was a good friend of Pauline's. She moved from Sydney to the Melbourne suburb of Ivanhoe for the last decades of her life. Elizabeth CURTIN (born c. 1865) married William COUSINS (c. 1862-1887), who died after being struck by a train. They had two daughters, Emily COUSINS (born c. 1884) and Agnes COUSINS (born 1887, may have been registered as Mary). When Elizabeth COUSINS remarried, to Thomas SHORTEL in 1888, these daughters disappear from the scene. There is no mention of them when Elizabeth and Thomas divorce in 1892; the court hears only about their own daughter. I would love to find out what happened to them, as well as to Elizabeth herself. If you know more about any of these people and are interested in the story, please get in touch. Thanks John Fuller

Hi listers I'm cross-posting this message because it spans a number of lists. On 5 Jan 2013 familysearch.org updated its resources in respect of "Australia, Cemetery Inscriptions, Sydney Branch Genealogical Library, 1800-1960". There is a description of these records at: https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Australia,_Cemetery_Inscriptions,_Sydney_Branch_Genealogical_Library_%28FamilySearch_Historical_Records%29 In brief: "Index cards of inscriptions found in cemeteries in New South Wales, Australia. Most of the entries are actual monumental inscriptions from cemeteries in New South Wales, but some entries were taken from burial registers. The majority of cemeteries are public ones. The cemeteries included were not necessarily transcribed completely." You can search thanks to volunteer indexers (of which I was one) or you can browse through the microfilms. For example, film 004117104 begins with Karuah Cemetery, 004117108 Sandgate CofE, etc. Some of the records are recorded in exercise books and you may have to go back a page or two to check the location. There are more than 160,000 records so you might be lucky especially if they have recorded a cenotaphic record that has been destroyed or weathered away. You can search from: https://familysearch.org/search/collection/show#uri=http://familysearch.org/searchapi/search/collection/1534449 Regards

Hello everyone, In 1903, a Sydney betting shop owner offering attractive odds collected a large sum in wagers on the Melbourne Cup. After the race, the winning punters gathered merrily outside his shop. Life was good. Then they were told there would be no payout that day and joy turned to rage, for they correctly suspected the owner had fled with their treasure. The shop was wrecked, an employee in it was lucky to escape alive and the police had to restore order. Sydney's newspapers spread the story and the state premier promised the law would do its job. Arrest warrants were issued, but the two culprits named were never found. Until now. I have inherited a collection of family papers that is helping me uncover the details of this incident, and am researching and writing a book about the lives of the people involved in it. The betting shop riot is just one element in a family saga of fame and wealth, sexual dalliances with huge consequences and lucrative illegal gambling. I will gladly share more of this story with genealogists whose research coincides with mine and who can help me with details. There was a circle of people in Sydney who knew all about the great Melbourne Cup heist and enjoyed inside jokes about it for years. I'm hoping more of their letters and postcards to each other will have survived. Below are details of people with connections to the story. I am not suggesting that all are implicated in a crime; most are friends, relatives or associates of the guilty parties, or their descendants. I have also given some details of their lives to help with identification. Almost all lived in the Sydney area, although some also spent time elsewhere. Here is an alphabetical list of the surnames: ALLARD, BRADLEY, BRANDTMAN, CAMPBELL, CHOISY, COUSINS, CURTIN, DAVIES, FARMER, HICKEY, MOONEY, HYLAND, JAEDE, JOHNSON, SHORTEL, SUSSMILCH, WANGENHEIM, WISEMAN, WOLSCH. Below are further details about these people. I would be very pleased to be in touch with any descendants of these families or genealogists with a research interest in them. Brothers Thomas SHORTEL and Sydney Walter SHORTEL (also spelled Shortell, Shortal, Shortall and even Shortle or Shortill), born in Sydney 1869 and 1875. Parents Thomas SHORTELL (c. 1845-1886), a tailor, and Teresa CAMPBELL (c. 1849-1880), both born in the British Isles, lived in Sydney most of their lives and died there. A third brother, William SHORTAL, a shearer, died in Blackall, Qld., in 1893, aged 25. I have a small photo that could be of Thomas (Senior) and Teresa and a matching photo of Drumcree Church in Portadown, Northern Ireland, which I suspect meant something to Teresa's family. Does anyone know of a way to look up births/baptisms in County Armagh without having to book an air ticket to Belfast? Margaret CAMPBELL (c. 1842-1911; sister of Teresa above). First husband was Felix CHOISY, tailor, died Sydney 1875; they had a daughter, Mary BRANDTMAN. Second husband was Richard MOONEY (1823-1915), also a tailor. They had three children, Beatrice MOONEY (born c. 1880), Margaret DAVIES (born c. 1882) and Edward MOONEY (born c. 1884). Gustavus (Gus) WANGENHEIM (c. 1869-1910), a business associate of Thomas Shortel's. An inventor. His father of the same name was a well-known hotelier and businessman in Sydney. His mother, Elizabeth WANGENHEIM, was herself a presence in business and city affairs. Florence Josephine HYLAND (c. 1874-1901), daughter of Matthew HYLAND (c. 1844-1878) and Anna HICKEY. Florence died of tuberculosis at Springwood in the Blue Mountains at the age of 27. She never married but, in 1893 at the age of 22, gave birth to a baby that died after three weeks. She had a sister, Julia Constance HYLAND, who married William Walter FARMER in 1899. Jane Victoria BRADLEY (born Melbourne 1870, died Sydney 1894), daughter of Charles Francis BRADLEY (c. 1828-1911) and Louisa WISEMAN, who divorced in 1875, after which Louisa married Arthur NICHOLLS in Sydney. Jane Victoria Bradley died in childbirth in Sydney in 1894, but the child, Victoria Louisa BRADLEY, survived and later became known as Victoria JOHNSON after her adoption by an aunt, Annie JOHNSON, wife of William Henry JOHNSON. Jane Victoria Bradley had a brother, Charles Francis BRADLEY (same name as his father; born Melbourne 1868) who also moved to the Sydney area and had several children. Christian Bernhard SUSSMILCH, music professor (1829-1905), who married Anna Emilie MERKLE in Sydney in 1869. They had six children who survived to adulthood and this very musical family is well documented in public trees on Ancestry.com. One daughter, Pauline Maryann SUSSMILCH (1871-1950), married Thomas SHORTEL in 1896, and was his wife at the time of the Melbourne Cup incident. Another daughter, Emma Emilie SUSSMILCH, married Horace Bateley ALLARD, and they had two daughters. Dora Anna WOLSCH (1869-1951), who married Johannes Heinrich JAEDE, was a good friend of Pauline's. She moved from Sydney to the Melbourne suburb of Ivanhoe for the last decades of her life. Elizabeth CURTIN (born c. 1865) married William COUSINS (c. 1862-1887), who died after being struck by a train. They had two daughters, Emily COUSINS (born c. 1884) and Agnes COUSINS (born 1887, may have been registered as Mary). When Elizabeth COUSINS remarried, to Thomas SHORTEL in 1888, these daughters disappear from the scene. There is no mention of them when Elizabeth and Thomas divorce in 1892; the court hears only about their own daughter. I would love to find out what happened to them, as well as to Elizabeth herself. If you know more about any of these people and are interested in the story, please get in touch. Thanks John Fuller

Hello All Im looking to make contact with the family of Phillip William Owens he died 5/8/1950 in Drummoyne , He married Genevieve Mary Shepherd in 1905, can any one help please. Their sons Joseph b 1908, and Bruce b 1911 in Balmain Thanks Carole

Good Morning, Thanks to all who responded re St Andrews. terry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maureen Gibbs Sent: Saturday, 5 January 2013 12:23 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AUS-NSW] St Andrews Lower Minto Hi Terry, I have a book compiled and edited by Frances Pollon in 1988 called "The Book of Sydney Suburbs" in which the suburb of St. Andrews is mentioned. Frances Pollan, a fourth generation Australian, is a social historian. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Kerrie I had a look on Ancestry could not find her death, but Catherine Moore married Kilian Hergenhan in 1896 so she would have been born around 1875 so you take the year of her death away Catherine would have been about 66 years old when she died. Cheers Josephine Qld -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kerrie Sent: Sunday, 6 January 2013 3:32 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [AUS-NSW] Bega Cemetery lookup please Hi Would anyone have a list of burials/headstones in the Bega Cemetery and could do a lookup for me please? I am looking for an entry for Catherine HERGENHAN who died in 1941, wife of Kilian Hergenhan and was buried in Bega Cemetery. I'd like to know her age if possible please. Many thanks Kerrie ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Would anyone have a list of burials/headstones in the Bega Cemetery and could do a lookup for me please? I am looking for an entry for Catherine HERGENHAN who died in 1941, wife of Kilian Hergenhan and was buried in Bega Cemetery. I'd like to know her age if possible please. Many thanks Kerrie

Good Afternoon, Thank you all for your assistance Terry

Hi Terry, I have a book compiled and edited by Frances Pollon in 1988 called "The Book of Sydney Suburbs" in which the suburb of St. Andrews is mentioned. Frances Pollan, a fourth generation Australian, is a social historian. Hope this helps a little Cheers, Maureen (Malbourne) To Quote:- St. Andrews, City of Campbelltown. Location : 46 kilometres south-west of Sydney between Campbelltown Road and the Hume Highway (Southwestern freeway). A Scottish migrant, Andrew Thompson, established a farm here on Bunburry Curran Creek, north of the present city of Campbelltown. In 1810 Governor Macquarie, who greatly favoured the Campbelltown area, called on Thompson, and was impressed by the farm. It consisted then of a slab hut beside the creek, and the beginnings of a sheep and cattle property. At that time the property covered 1,240 acres. Later Thompson demolished the house and rebuilt it in a better situation on the top of a nearby hill. Unfortunately it was destroyed by fire. When Thompson died his widow enherited the property, by which taht time included a total of 90 cattle and 1,400 sheep. To his friend and advisor Governor Macquarie, Andrew Thompson left the large sum of 6,000 pounds. Street names in the area continue the Scottish theme of the suburb's name, with Caithness, Galashiels and Bannockburn Avenues, and Paisley, Oban and Skye Places, for example. The modern St. Andrews Public School is in Ballantrae Drive. End quote. On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Terry <[email protected]> wrote: > Good Morning, > > > > Can any one advise of the history of a property called St. Andrews which I > believe was / is in the Minto area.? > > > > Any information appreciated. > > > > Terry > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi There is a suburb in Campbelltown NSW called St Andrews. I live not far from there. It is near Minto just up the hill. It is situated in South West Sydney. It would be just under an hour drive from the city. I hope I have been of some help. Lisa Edwards On 05/01/2013, at 9:37 AM, "Terry" <[email protected]> wrote: > Good Morning, > > > > Can any one advise of the history of a property called St. Andrews which I > believe was / is in the Minto area.? > > > > Any information appreciated. > > > > Terry > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Good Morning, Can any one advise of the history of a property called St. Andrews which I believe was / is in the Minto area.? Any information appreciated. Terry

 Hi Terry The Sydney Gazette and New South Wales Advertise 24 October 1812 public auction Lot 9.— Twelve hundred and forty Acres of good Grazing Land, 30 of which are cleared, and in rich arable condition, with a good House, Yards, &c. known by the name of St. Andrew's, situate in the District of Minto, 8 miles from the Town of Liverpool, 20 miles from Parramatta, 30 from Sydney, and 30 from Windsor .           Andrew Thompson 1773-1810  (convict) was the owner of St Andrews Farm  --search google for him also search   http://trove.nla.gov.au/ http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/thompson-andrew-2728 regards Lorette From:Terry <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, 5 January 2013 9:37 AM Subject: [AUS-NSW] St Andrews Lower Minto Can any one advise of the history of a property called St. Andrews which I believe was / is  in the Minto area.?

Happy New Year , Hazel ! SKS probably translates to "Some Kind Soul " Another throw-away thought : Not quite "Some Kindred Soul" , though On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 12:22 PM, Hazel Magann <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello > Thank you Jenny and Ray for letting me know the meaning of the letters. When I first started researching we would add SKS to any query we needed help with it means "Some Kind Sole". > > Thank you again > Hazel in Blacktown > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Thank you Jenny and Ray for letting me know the meaning of the letters. When I first started researching we would add SKS to any query we needed help with it means "Some Kind Sole". Thank you again Hazel in Blacktown

Hi all, A belated merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to one and all! I am just taking the opportunity to tie up a few loose ends and have an anomaly with a marriage certificate that I ordered about 8 yrs ago. The marriage took place at Apsley west of Wellington, NSW in 1857. The format of the certificate is that of a re- jigged photocopy of the relevant entry from some other ledger/book - it is handwritten ( unlike certificates issued by NSW BDM from the 70's that are typed transcriptions) Does anyone know what this original ledger would have been? My 'problem' is that this certificate mentions 2 people as witnesses, one Richard Turner and William Campbell, whereas the original entry in the old church ledger ( written at the time of the marriage by the minister) shows himself and his wife as witnesses. (wording : "in the presence of") Can anyone shed any light on this apparent contradiction. Many thanks Sue (central west, NSW)

Many thanks David. Joan Listers , If planning a trip to the Independent Cemetery office at Rookwood for some of their wonderful help in locating headstones - Don't. It is permanently closed. As from December 20 it is now amalgamated with the Anglican office.

Thankyou for this information David cheers Lyn

Listers , If planning a trip to the Independent Cemetery office at Rookwood for some of their wonderful help in locating headstones - Don't. It is permanently closed. As from December 20 it is now amalgamated with the Anglican office. If visiting in person then you can have help for two free requests, Further requests can be made at $10 per request. Both the Independent and Anglican web sites are running as separate entities so do as much planning for any visit as you can from the web sites including printing off maps and keep the hard questions for your two free requests. Its a few years since I have tried to find a grave in the Anglican section. They have done a wonderful job of adding grave numbers at the end of most rows so if you have a row, grave number and section number( from either the web site or the SAG CD) it is far easier to locate what you want than it was when I last visited but be very fit if using public transport. Private transport is virtually essential.It can be kilometres between graves just in the Anglican section. Grave numbers in the Independent sections that I was looking in ( former Methodist and Presbyterian) are almost non existent still in older parts. There are also two LAWN SECTION A B and C parts in the Uniting church portion of the cemetery. One is the former Methodist Lawn cemetery A, B, C, right near the RC office complex. Of course I went to the other one first near the Greek Orthodox. I can't speak for the Roman Catholic office and help at present. My look ups there will be for a future trip to Sydney. I don't imagine they are planning an amalgamation with the Anglican office.:) They have been extremely helpful in past visits. David Central Coast NSW

Good morning I am curious as to whether any of you over the last couple of days are having problems with the "google site"? Thank you Hazel in Blacktown

No problems I have noticed What problems are you finding? Problems with sites either not returning expected results or not gaining access to sites you have previously had no problems with are very often cured by clearing cookies and temp internet files Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 28/12/2012 23:38, Hazel Magann wrote: > Good morning > I am curious as to whether any of you over the last couple of days are having problems with the "google site"? > > Thank you > Hazel in Blacktown >