replies inserted below ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: "Val Harris" <[email protected]> Cc: "Robert Duggan" <[email protected]>; "AUS-MILITARY-L @ rootsweb . com" <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Re: AUS-MILITARY-D Digest V03 #36 > Dear Mr Harris > > What can I say, It appears that you are a very angry man who thinks that no one > should have any medals that you do not have. No anger. just a desire to keep medals away from over-supply that deminishes their meaning and value by giving some to everybody I have entitlement to 2 medals that are UNEARNED. I did not a bloody thing for them. They are worthless. > > One wonders if this is the feeling of your Queensland RSL branch. Not my Branch, not their comments, no relevance. > > I remember the days when the RSL was against the Korean Vets being granted > full returned membership. Not relevant > > One point that I should make is that I applied for the medal at the request of the > D.O.D. who then investigated and said that I did not qualify. You must be a genius. The DOD actually ask you to apply for medals to which you are not entitled. I am impressed. > > I noticed that you missed the fact that my father was a POW and got nothing from > anyone for that. If he was a military POW he IS entitled to campaigm medals, no argument, clear as crystal, black and white law. If he was a civilian POW, sorry, I am not sure. > > WW1, yes I had family there including at the big G landing and I am proud of them. Asw you should be. Don't diminish the value of their medals by giving one to everyone who ever worn a baggy green uniform in Ausd for 20 minutes. > > I have never Jumped up and down demanding a medal (I don't have enough milk > cartons to earn the points as you suggest). If you are not "demanding" a medal, why start this email conversation? > > I think that the reply from Mr Kinney says it all. Mr Kinney is badly mistaken, in my opinion. > > Kind Regards, > > Robert Duggan > > > > Val Harris <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Mr Duggan > > > > The difference between staying in Australia and training other people > > to > > kill (to use your words) and going overseas to a war zone and killing > > and > > being exposed to the deadly intent of the enemy is so different as to > > not > > (usually) need explanation. > > > > But of course you deserve a medal. Why not the "I stayed home award" > > or the > > "I didn't go away to fight" medal. > > > > Better still, why not give everyone one 5 medals so that no one > > misses out. > > Put them in cornflakes packets or hang them on milk cartons. > > > > Of course they won't have any value or command any respect but all > > the 90 > > day boys and the weekend warriors can all prance around on Anzac Day > > as > > though they had really done something. > > > > I hope my grandson gets a 'My Great Grandfather went to WW1 Medal" to > > wear > > to pre school next week, it will make him feel "special". Do you want > > one as > > well? > > > > > > Ted Harris > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Robert Duggan" <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 1:09 PM > > Subject: Re: AUS-MILITARY-D Digest V03 #36 > > > > > > > Hi Paul (old Mate), > > > > > > I must agree with you on this matter (and most others). > > > > > > The issue of the 2 medals under discussion was not taken lightly by > > the > > > government. > > > > > > I have found over the years that most people who object did not > > qualifiy > > or > > > their off spring have been "knocked back" when applying. > > > > > > I can answer to both these accounts one for my late father and one > > for > > > myself. "Knocked back" on both accounts. > > > > > > Not a bad record for a ex POW (dad) and over 20 years service > > (myself). > > > > > > No I was not a Nasho. but as both Fulltime and CMF service I > > trained > > Nashos > > > including a lot who saw service overseas, and, some did not return. > > > > > > I applied for the ASM (1945/1975) but was not approved as my > > service was > > > within Australia. > > > Was I disapointed, yes, upset, no. > > > > > > Do I agree with the Nashos getting their medal, Yes. > > > > > > Now for a medal for the CMF guys. > > > > > > I do think that some people get confused with the difference of > > service > > > medals and awards. > > > > > > Do I have service medals No. > > > Do I have awards, Yes, 2, RFM and NM both awarded by the Govenor > > General > > for > > > service. > > > Service 1958-1964 RAR - 1964-1979 CMF including Full Time duty > > during the > > > Viet Nam period. > > > > > > I was trained to kill and traind others to kill. > > > > > > I guess the includinding all the above and no medals I must done > > "Bugger > > > All" > > > > > > Paul keep up the good work. > > > > > > Kind Regard, > > > > > > Robert Duggan > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Paul Kinney" <[email protected]> > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 11:35 AM > > > Subject: Re: AUS-MILITARY-D Digest V03 #36 > > > > > > > > > > Ms Val Harris > > > > Dear Val, > > > > My apologies, I do not read newspapers. I find that any > > > resemblance > > > > between what really happens, and what is written, is more often > > than > > not, > > > an > > > > accident. > > > > You are absolutely correct regarding the Australian > > Award > > system, > > > > again my apologies, I had forgotten that we had once more taken > > Australia > > > > into the bold new world of being a country in our own right, with > > our > > own > > > > award system. > > > > I noted your further comments about National Servicemen > > and the > > > > small amount of time they spent in the service. You must be > > careful > > though > > > > when you compare Service medals with bravery awards. Service > > medals are > > > > given to show the areas where a soldier has been on Service, they > > do not > > > nor > > > > can they be taken to represent acts of bravery. > > > > Your e-mail noted the award of the National Service > > medal to > > all > > > > those who served in the 1950's by doing the 90 + days requirement > > of > > that > > > > time, quite frankly I believe the award of the National Service > > medal to > > > > these men was long over due. Remember, they were being trained to > > fight > > in > > > > an era when Communism was at it's most rampant. The cold war was > > a > > reality > > > > and a bloody terrifying one at that. Joseph Stalin was still the > > man > > until > > > > 1952, and then came Nikita Kruschev. This country had Robert > > Menzies as > > a > > > > Prime Minister and England would have been in trouble if the > > expected > > war > > > in > > > > Europe broke out, and 'Ming' would have sent our Army to Europe > > at the > > > drop > > > > of his hat. Who would have defended Australia? The National > > Servicemen, > > > from > > > > whom? Indonesia was going communist, the communists where > > fighting an > > > armed > > > > conflict in Malaya and Viet Nam. Australian troops, airmen and > > sailors > > > where > > > > committed to the Malayan conflict alongside the British, Ghurkas > > and > > > > Indians. At the same time China and North Korea from 1950 to 1954 > > had > > > > instigated and and fought the Korean War, so with our regular > > army > > > committed > > > > in Malaya and the government in need of backing the regulars up, > > our > > > > National Servicemen where the backbone on which any enlargement > > of our > > > army > > > > would be based. > > > > You state in your e-mail: > > > > "What is the benefit, so far, of the Australian Awards system? We > > have > > > > awarded medals to hundreds of thousands of National Servicemen > > who did > > 94 > > > > days training in the 1950s, we have made tens of thousands of men > > who > > did > > > > buggar all, eligible for the Australian Service Medal 1945/75, > > we have > > > > medals for this medals for that and the end result is that they > > become > > > > almost meaningless" > > > > The benefit of the Australian Awards system is that our > > country > > > can > > > > finally recognise the service rendered to it, by those who have > > worn and > > > > wear, it's military uniform. When you put that uniform on you > > become a > > > part > > > > of something special, the ANZAC tradition. Whether, Nasho or > > Regular you > > > are > > > > a serviceman, it was and is a thing to be proud of. > > > > 'Buggar all'. To be placed in a position, at the behest > > of your > > > > countries government, of possibly being called on to do active > > service, > > > when > > > > and if your country needs you, is hardly 'buggar all'. > > Ninety-four days > > of > > > > training would give you a good chance to know some of the > > rudiments of > > > what > > > > is required to survive in combat. Combat is what servicemen train > > for, > > to > > > > kill the enemy. Not for parades, or to fight bushfires or help > > out in > > > floods > > > > or assist at major disasters, but to kill people. 'Buggar all', > > indeed. > > > > The following will help you to understand the reason for awarding > > the > > > > Australian Active Service Medal: > > > > "The Minister for Defence Industry Science and Personnel recently > > > announced > > > > the creation of the Australian Active Service Medal 1945-1975 > > (AASM > > > 1945-75) > > > > to recognise warlike service between 3 September 1945 and 14 > > February > > > 1975. > > > > The award was approved by the Queen on 11 December 1997." > > > > 'Warlike service', as none of the National Servicemen of the > > 1950's > > > qualify > > > > for this medal it is not possible for them to receive it. Unless > > they > > > joined > > > > the regular services and did do 'warlike services'. This medal is > > for > > > > servicemen and women who put their lives at risk for their > > country in a > > > > combat zone. Again it is an award that was long overdue. The > > Korean, > > > > Malayan, Sarawak and Borneo campaigns have finally received the > > > recognition > > > > they deserve. > > > > By your definition Val, I am one of those who did 'buggar > > all' > > to > > > > receive that medal. I was a national serviceman, I spent 349 days > > in > > Viet > > > > Nam as a rifleman in the Infantry. If what I and my mates did can > > be > > > > described as 'buggar all', I would be intrigued to find out what > > your > > > > definition of the opposite to buggar all is. Be advised that you > > are > > most > > > > probably not on your own as the RSL then, and to a certain extent > > now, > > > still > > > > believe that we where not in a real war. > > > > "Medals for this and medals for that and the end result > > is that > > > they > > > > become almost meaningless", only in the eyes of those who do not > > > understand > > > > or fully know the significance of what they are seeing. > > > > To finally receive acknowledgement of what you have done > > for > > your > > > > country, after having had to wait fifteen years for even a > > welcome home > > > > parade, is, like the parade, a part of the healing process for > > those of > > us > > > > who served in Viet Nam. For the families of the men who died in > > Viet Nam > > > any > > > > further recognition they receive, from the people of this > > country, for > > > their > > > > loss, is more than deserved, even if it is a medal. > > > > With our very own award system we can now recognise, and > > have, > > the > > > > contributions of our Peace-Keeping forces wherever and when ever > > they > > > > represent our country. The same can and will be done for our > > people > > going > > > on > > > > 'Active Service' or who have gone on 'Active Service, our SAS in > > > Afghanistan > > > > for instance. > > > > Will there be a quota system? I think not, I will get > > back to > > you > > > on > > > > that, when I have confirmed it, with several serving members of > > our > > armed > > > > forces, who should know. > > > > Respectfully yours > > > > Paul Kinney > > > > > > > > >From: [email protected] > > > > >Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > >To: [email protected] > > > > >Subject: AUS-MILITARY-D Digest V03 #36 > > > > >Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:00:01 -0700 > > > > > > > > > ><< message2.txt >> > > > > ><< message4.txt >> > > > > ><< message6.txt >> > > > > ><< message8.txt >> > > > > ><< message10.txt >> > > > > ><< message12.txt >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > ___ > > > > MSN Instant Messenger now available on Australian mobile phones. > > Go to > > > > http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_messenger.asp > > > > > > > > ______________________________ > > > > > >