Well to start with who ever he was he must have been an Officer. Nothing so flash for the troops. Secondly I doubt that it was personal issue. Looks to me more like Officers Mess 'fighting irons". However all of the above is a GUESS. Cheers, Ted Harris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linda Barraclough" <kapana@netspace.net.au> To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 9:30 PM Subject: Dating some cutlery > Hi Everyone, > > I am attempting to date some cutlery - or confirm what I have been told . > > There is a picture at http://static.flickr.com/50/143363743_662002794c_o.jpg > > and I am told at the small museum where I am cataloguing them, that > they are part of the donor's father's mess kit from the 1939-1945 > war. They just look too modern to me. > > There is an Australian Army insignia stamped on the handles of the > forks and the blade of the knife, but little else to help. > > Would anyone be able to comment???? > > Thanks! > > Linda > > ______________________________

Hi everyone, Looking at some service details I have come across under Posting at Discharge 7 Aust Jungle Trunk Line Maint Sec. Could anyone possibly explain this for me. Also a very big thankyou on all advice re my RAAf queries. Kindest regards Leanne Baulch Canberra

Hi Leanne This was a sub unit of 19 L of C Sigs (Lines of Communications) which was in New Guinea at the end of the war as part of First Aust Army. They were based at Kela but I am not sure where in NG that was. As the name implies they maintained the overland telephone line. There were 7 such units based at Owers Corner, Lae, Amboga, Ewarri, Lae, Kokoda and Kela Cheers Graham -----Original Message----- From: Leanne Baulch [mailto:lea.dave@cairns.net.au] Sent: Wednesday, 10 May 2006 7:58 AM To: AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [AUS-MIL] Jungle Trunk Line Hi everyone, Looking at some service details I have come across under Posting at Discharge 7 Aust Jungle Trunk Line Maint Sec. Could anyone possibly explain this for me. Also a very big thankyou on all advice re my RAAf queries. Kindest regards Leanne Baulch Canberra ==== AUS-MILITARY Mailing List ==== First AIF Order of Battle 1914-1918 http://www.adfa.edu.au/~rmallett/index.html

Hi Everyone, I am attempting to date some cutlery - or confirm what I have been told . There is a picture at http://static.flickr.com/50/143363743_662002794c_o.jpg and I am told at the small museum where I am cataloguing them, that they are part of the donor's father's mess kit from the 1939-1945 war. They just look too modern to me. There is an Australian Army insignia stamped on the handles of the forks and the blade of the knife, but little else to help. Would anyone be able to comment???? Thanks! Linda

Thanks, Ted -- I should have known better than to question your advice <g>. Lindsay Graham Canberra, Australia ----------------------------------- Please reply via the newsgroup/mailing list, so that all may benefit from the discussion. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted HARRIS" <tedharris@ozemail.com.au> To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 5:44 AM Subject: Re: [AUS-MIL] Re: WW2-Air Force > No I don't but other posters have given details so I won't. > My only comment is that this reaction is not uncommon. > > People find losses of that sort hard to understand. 10 years in Vietnam > gave > us 500 casualties KIA and broke our hearts. Imagine 5,000 in 4n years RAAF > only. > > Very few people have any knowledge of the sacrifices RAAF made. > > As I said, we celebrate "The Few" and forget the "Heavy Boys". > > Churchill's famous speech is often shortened. Here it is in full > > Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so > few. > All hearts go out to the Fighter pilots, whose brilliant actions we see > with > our own eyes day after day, but we must never forget that all the time, > night after night, month after month, our bomber squadrons travel far into > Germany, find their targets in the darkness.aim their attacks, often under > the heaviest fire, often with serious loss.and inflict shattering blows > upon > the whole of the technical and war-making structure of the Nazi power. > Winston Churchill. > > Cheers, > Ted Harris > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lindsay Graham" <LDGraham@aapt.net.au> > To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 4:21 PM > Subject: Re: [AUS-MIL] Re: WW2-Air Force > > >> "RAAF lost 5,000 men over Germany." >> >> Do you mean RAF, Ted? >> >> Lindsay Graham >> Canberra, Australia >> - --------------------------------- >> Please reply via the newsgroup/mailing list, so that all may benefit from >> the discussion. >> <snip>

Thank you, I'll have at look at the site. Maurie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Staunton" <anthony.staunton@pcug.org.au> To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 7:50 PM Subject: RE: [AUS-MIL] Re: WW2-Air Force > Maurie > > The actual figure for RAAF fatalities in the War against Germany is 5117. > The official histories for WW2 are online at the Australian War Memorial and > Appendix 7 of the final Army volume has some statistics at: > http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/histories/23/chapters/31.pdf > > Anthony Staunton > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Maurie [mailto:henery1@tpg.com.au] > Sent: Monday, 8 May 2006 7:32 PM > To: AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [AUS-MIL] Re: WW2-Air Force > > Read a book recently which said that 3,500 Australian Airmen were lost over > Europe during WWII (included those serving with the RAAF and RAF. > > Book said that approximately 50,000 Allied Airmen were lost over Europe > during WWII. > > Maurie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lindsay Graham" <LDGraham@aapt.net.au> > To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 4:21 PM > Subject: Re: [AUS-MIL] Re: WW2-Air Force > > > > "RAAF lost 5,000 men over Germany." > > > > Do you mean RAF, Ted? > > > > Lindsay Graham > > Canberra, Australia > > ----------------------------------- > > Please reply via the newsgroup/mailing list, so that all may benefit from > > the discussion. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ted HARRIS" <tedharris@ozemail.com.au> > > To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 11:29 AM > > Subject: [AUS-MIL] Re: WW2-Air Force > > > > > > > G'day again. > > > Very few Aussies understand the HUGE input we had to the RAF in WW2. > Even > > > when Japan attacked us here we did not need the huge numbers of aircrew > > > that > > > were needed in Europe. > > > > > > Here the numbers of planes on both sides was fairly small by world war > > > standards and the distances made aircraft carried on ships a better > option > > > in many cases. > > > > > > In Europe where they were sending "1,000 Bomber Raids" at night, every > > > night > > > (Royal Air Force) and "1,000 Bomber Raids" during the day, every day > > > (United > > > States Army Air Force) plus fighters plus Recon. plus Delivery Flights > > > plus > > > Coastal Command the demand for pilots and aircrew was staggering. So > were > > > the losses. RAAF lost 5,000 men over Germany. > > > > > > It is a section of our Military History that is often glossed over. "The > > > Few" saved Britain and I love them for it. The "Heavy Boys" who flew the > > > Lancasters and the Wellingtons and the Liberators etc saved the world > and > > > get forgotten. > > > > > > I try to set the record straight with www.diggerhistory2.info where I > > > reproduce 4 books about the RAAF in WW2. > > > > > > Thousands of Aussies, EnZedders, Canadians, South Africans and > Rhodesians > > > trained in Canada for the Empire Air Training Scheme and were posted to > > > RAF, > > > RAAF, RCAF units without much regard to nationality. > > > > > > The man credited with being the single most "important" part of Britain > > > winning the Battle of Britain was a Kiwi. > > > http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-heroes/keith_park.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Ted Harris > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Leanne Baulch" <lea.dave@cairns.net.au> > > > To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 3:15 PM > > > Subject: WW2-Air Force > > > > > > > > >> Hi everyone, > > >> > > >> During WW2 many Aus Air Force people flew missions with the British. > Why? > > > This is just my lack of knowledge coming through here. My great uncle > flew > > > around 22 missions with the British which surprised me. > > >> > > >> Also why could they not keep their log books? > > >> For some reason my great uncle did and hopefully in the next few weeks > I > > > will get to seeit. Should I take photos of the log book? I really feel > > > this > > > log book is important. > > >> > > >> Thankyou > > >> Kind regards > > >> Leanne Baulch > > >> Canberra > > >> > > > > > > ==== AUS-MILITARY Mailing List ==== > > First AIF Order of Battle 1914-1918 > > http://www.adfa.edu.au/~rmallett/index.html > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/312 - Release Date: 14/04/06 > > > > > > > ==== AUS-MILITARY Mailing List ==== > Please support RootsWeb who make this list possible > http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html > > > > > > ==== AUS-MILITARY Mailing List ==== > AUS-MILITARY is set so that, by default, replies go to the list. Please check your replies before sending, to make sure that is what you know is happening. > > > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/312 - Release Date: 14/04/06 > >

No I don't but other posters have given details so I won't. My only comment is that this reaction is not uncommon. People find losses of that sort hard to understand. 10 years in Vietnam gave us 500 casualties KIA and broke our hearts. Imagine 5,000 in 4n years RAAF only. Very few people have any knowledge of the sacrifices RAAF made. As I said, we celebrate "The Few" and forget the "Heavy Boys". Churchill's famous speech is often shortened. Here it is in full Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few. All hearts go out to the Fighter pilots, whose brilliant actions we see with our own eyes day after day, but we must never forget that all the time, night after night, month after month, our bomber squadrons travel far into Germany, find their targets in the darkness.aim their attacks, often under the heaviest fire, often with serious loss.and inflict shattering blows upon the whole of the technical and war-making structure of the Nazi power. Winston Churchill. Cheers, Ted Harris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lindsay Graham" <LDGraham@aapt.net.au> To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 4:21 PM Subject: Re: [AUS-MIL] Re: WW2-Air Force > "RAAF lost 5,000 men over Germany." > > Do you mean RAF, Ted? > > Lindsay Graham > Canberra, Australia > - --------------------------------- > Please reply via the newsgroup/mailing list, so that all may benefit from > the discussion. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ted HARRIS" <tedharris@ozemail.com.au> > To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 11:29 AM > Subject: [AUS-MIL] Re: WW2-Air Force > > > > G'day again. > > Very few Aussies understand the HUGE input we had to the RAF in WW2. Even > > when Japan attacked us here we did not need the huge numbers of aircrew > > that > > were needed in Europe. > > > > Here the numbers of planes on both sides was fairly small by world war > > standards and the distances made aircraft carried on ships a better option > > in many cases. > > > > In Europe where they were sending "1,000 Bomber Raids" at night, every > > night > > (Royal Air Force) and "1,000 Bomber Raids" during the day, every day > > (United > > States Army Air Force) plus fighters plus Recon. plus Delivery Flights > > plus > > Coastal Command the demand for pilots and aircrew was staggering. So were > > the losses. RAAF lost 5,000 men over Germany. > > > > It is a section of our Military History that is often glossed over. "The > > Few" saved Britain and I love them for it. The "Heavy Boys" who flew the > > Lancasters and the Wellingtons and the Liberators etc saved the world and > > get forgotten. > > > > I try to set the record straight with www.diggerhistory2.info where I > > reproduce 4 books about the RAAF in WW2. > > > > Thousands of Aussies, EnZedders, Canadians, South Africans and Rhodesians > > trained in Canada for the Empire Air Training Scheme and were posted to > > RAF, > > RAAF, RCAF units without much regard to nationality. > > > > The man credited with being the single most "important" part of Britain > > winning the Battle of Britain was a Kiwi. > > http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-heroes/keith_park.htm > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > Ted Harris > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Leanne Baulch" <lea.dave@cairns.net.au> > > To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 3:15 PM > > Subject: WW2-Air Force > > > > > >> Hi everyone, > >> > >> During WW2 many Aus Air Force people flew missions with the British. Why? > > This is just my lack of knowledge coming through here. My great uncle flew > > around 22 missions with the British which surprised me. > >> > >> Also why could they not keep their log books? > >> For some reason my great uncle did and hopefully in the next few weeks I > > will get to seeit. Should I take photos of the log book? I really feel > > this > > log book is important. > >> > >> Thankyou > >> Kind regards > >> Leanne Baulch > >> Canberra > >> > > ______________________________

Of course I read it, David, and carefully too -- one wonders why you could not have been more polite. This is not an area that I know much about, but I was surprised that the figure would be so high for the RAAF and it did not seem entirely consistent with Ted's last para which talks about "thousands" of non-Brits. I was also conscious that many Australians (including one of my uncles) served in the RAF, not the RAAF. I think my question was reasonable, even though I did not explain my background thinking. From subsequent responses, I am very happy to stand corrected as to the facts. I may be in Canberra, but I have not done any research in things military, although I have a peripheral interest in the area -- nor, at the time of my question (or now), did I have the time to research the issue myself. And as I leave for Europe in a few days, this is likely to be my last contribution to this list until next year. Lindsay Graham Canberra, Australia ----------------------------------- Please reply via the newsgroup/mailing list, so that all may benefit from the discussion. ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. David Grierson" <grierson@melbpc.org.au> To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 8:03 PM Subject: Re: [AUS-MIL] Re: WW2-Air Force > Lindsay, > One wonders, with this comment, whether you actually read Ted's post. And > you apparently live in Canberra, too, where your capacity to research > things military is enormous. > For your information: > During WWII, the RAAF lost 5397 killed or died in Europe, with 947 > injured. The total killed or died for all other areas was 5165, with 2245 > injured. > To give you some perspective, I quote AIRCDRE Keith Parsons, "Only three > percent of the men who enlisted during WWII were trained as aircrew and > posted to the UK or the Middle East, yet from this small group 39 percent > of all Australian casualties occurred..." From the above figures, that > could be read as 46%, but Parsons may have taken other aspects into > account, eg, deaths from sickness (context RAAF). > Happy researching > David Grierson > > > > Lindsay Graham wrote: > >> "RAAF lost 5,000 men over Germany." >> >> Do you mean RAF, Ted? >>

Lindsay, One wonders, with this comment, whether you actually read Ted's post. And you apparently live in Canberra, too, where your capacity to research things military is enormous. For your information: During WWII, the RAAF lost 5397 killed or died in Europe, with 947 injured. The total killed or died for all other areas was 5165, with 2245 injured. To give you some perspective, I quote AIRCDRE Keith Parsons, "Only three percent of the men who enlisted during WWII were trained as aircrew and posted to the UK or the Middle East, yet from this small group 39 percent of all Australian casualties occurred..." From the above figures, that could be read as 46%, but Parsons may have taken other aspects into account, eg, deaths from sickness (context RAAF). Happy researching David Grierson Lindsay Graham wrote: > "RAAF lost 5,000 men over Germany." > > Do you mean RAF, Ted? > > Lindsay Graham > Canberra, Australia > ----------------------------------- > Please reply via the newsgroup/mailing list, so that all may benefit > from the discussion. > >

The website of the Military Historical Society of Australia has moved to http://www.mhsa.org.au/ The Military Historical Society of Australia was founded in Melbourne in 1957. Its aims are the encouragement and pursuit of study and research in military history, customs, traditions, dress, arms, equipment and kindred matters; the promotion of public interest and knowledge in these subjects, and the preservation of historical military objects with particular reference to the armed forces of Australia. The Society publishes the journal Sabretache which is mailed to each member of the Society quarterly. Copies are held by most state libraries and selected genealogical and historical societies. If you have access to the subscription service INFORMIT at your library search for Sabretache. I have advised administrator of AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com that the website has changed and the footer will be updated to http://www.mhsa.org.au/ Please feel welcome to link to http://www.mhsa.org.au/ and if you were linked to the former website please update to http://www.mhsa.org.au/ Anthony Staunton

Maurie The actual figure for RAAF fatalities in the War against Germany is 5117. The official histories for WW2 are online at the Australian War Memorial and Appendix 7 of the final Army volume has some statistics at: http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/histories/23/chapters/31.pdf Anthony Staunton -----Original Message----- From: Maurie [mailto:henery1@tpg.com.au] Sent: Monday, 8 May 2006 7:32 PM To: AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-MIL] Re: WW2-Air Force Read a book recently which said that 3,500 Australian Airmen were lost over Europe during WWII (included those serving with the RAAF and RAF. Book said that approximately 50,000 Allied Airmen were lost over Europe during WWII. Maurie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lindsay Graham" <LDGraham@aapt.net.au> To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 4:21 PM Subject: Re: [AUS-MIL] Re: WW2-Air Force > "RAAF lost 5,000 men over Germany." > > Do you mean RAF, Ted? > > Lindsay Graham > Canberra, Australia > ----------------------------------- > Please reply via the newsgroup/mailing list, so that all may benefit from > the discussion. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ted HARRIS" <tedharris@ozemail.com.au> > To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 11:29 AM > Subject: [AUS-MIL] Re: WW2-Air Force > > > > G'day again. > > Very few Aussies understand the HUGE input we had to the RAF in WW2. Even > > when Japan attacked us here we did not need the huge numbers of aircrew > > that > > were needed in Europe. > > > > Here the numbers of planes on both sides was fairly small by world war > > standards and the distances made aircraft carried on ships a better option > > in many cases. > > > > In Europe where they were sending "1,000 Bomber Raids" at night, every > > night > > (Royal Air Force) and "1,000 Bomber Raids" during the day, every day > > (United > > States Army Air Force) plus fighters plus Recon. plus Delivery Flights > > plus > > Coastal Command the demand for pilots and aircrew was staggering. So were > > the losses. RAAF lost 5,000 men over Germany. > > > > It is a section of our Military History that is often glossed over. "The > > Few" saved Britain and I love them for it. The "Heavy Boys" who flew the > > Lancasters and the Wellingtons and the Liberators etc saved the world and > > get forgotten. > > > > I try to set the record straight with www.diggerhistory2.info where I > > reproduce 4 books about the RAAF in WW2. > > > > Thousands of Aussies, EnZedders, Canadians, South Africans and Rhodesians > > trained in Canada for the Empire Air Training Scheme and were posted to > > RAF, > > RAAF, RCAF units without much regard to nationality. > > > > The man credited with being the single most "important" part of Britain > > winning the Battle of Britain was a Kiwi. > > http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-heroes/keith_park.htm > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > Ted Harris > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Leanne Baulch" <lea.dave@cairns.net.au> > > To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 3:15 PM > > Subject: WW2-Air Force > > > > > >> Hi everyone, > >> > >> During WW2 many Aus Air Force people flew missions with the British. Why? > > This is just my lack of knowledge coming through here. My great uncle flew > > around 22 missions with the British which surprised me. > >> > >> Also why could they not keep their log books? > >> For some reason my great uncle did and hopefully in the next few weeks I > > will get to seeit. Should I take photos of the log book? I really feel > > this > > log book is important. > >> > >> Thankyou > >> Kind regards > >> Leanne Baulch > >> Canberra > >> > > > ==== AUS-MILITARY Mailing List ==== > First AIF Order of Battle 1914-1918 > http://www.adfa.edu.au/~rmallett/index.html > > > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/312 - Release Date: 14/04/06 > > ==== AUS-MILITARY Mailing List ==== Please support RootsWeb who make this list possible http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html

Read a book recently which said that 3,500 Australian Airmen were lost over Europe during WWII (included those serving with the RAAF and RAF. Book said that approximately 50,000 Allied Airmen were lost over Europe during WWII. Maurie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lindsay Graham" <LDGraham@aapt.net.au> To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 4:21 PM Subject: Re: [AUS-MIL] Re: WW2-Air Force > "RAAF lost 5,000 men over Germany." > > Do you mean RAF, Ted? > > Lindsay Graham > Canberra, Australia > ----------------------------------- > Please reply via the newsgroup/mailing list, so that all may benefit from > the discussion. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ted HARRIS" <tedharris@ozemail.com.au> > To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 11:29 AM > Subject: [AUS-MIL] Re: WW2-Air Force > > > > G'day again. > > Very few Aussies understand the HUGE input we had to the RAF in WW2. Even > > when Japan attacked us here we did not need the huge numbers of aircrew > > that > > were needed in Europe. > > > > Here the numbers of planes on both sides was fairly small by world war > > standards and the distances made aircraft carried on ships a better option > > in many cases. > > > > In Europe where they were sending "1,000 Bomber Raids" at night, every > > night > > (Royal Air Force) and "1,000 Bomber Raids" during the day, every day > > (United > > States Army Air Force) plus fighters plus Recon. plus Delivery Flights > > plus > > Coastal Command the demand for pilots and aircrew was staggering. So were > > the losses. RAAF lost 5,000 men over Germany. > > > > It is a section of our Military History that is often glossed over. "The > > Few" saved Britain and I love them for it. The "Heavy Boys" who flew the > > Lancasters and the Wellingtons and the Liberators etc saved the world and > > get forgotten. > > > > I try to set the record straight with www.diggerhistory2.info where I > > reproduce 4 books about the RAAF in WW2. > > > > Thousands of Aussies, EnZedders, Canadians, South Africans and Rhodesians > > trained in Canada for the Empire Air Training Scheme and were posted to > > RAF, > > RAAF, RCAF units without much regard to nationality. > > > > The man credited with being the single most "important" part of Britain > > winning the Battle of Britain was a Kiwi. > > http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-heroes/keith_park.htm > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > Ted Harris > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Leanne Baulch" <lea.dave@cairns.net.au> > > To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 3:15 PM > > Subject: WW2-Air Force > > > > > >> Hi everyone, > >> > >> During WW2 many Aus Air Force people flew missions with the British. Why? > > This is just my lack of knowledge coming through here. My great uncle flew > > around 22 missions with the British which surprised me. > >> > >> Also why could they not keep their log books? > >> For some reason my great uncle did and hopefully in the next few weeks I > > will get to seeit. Should I take photos of the log book? I really feel > > this > > log book is important. > >> > >> Thankyou > >> Kind regards > >> Leanne Baulch > >> Canberra > >> > > > ==== AUS-MILITARY Mailing List ==== > First AIF Order of Battle 1914-1918 > http://www.adfa.edu.au/~rmallett/index.html > > > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/312 - Release Date: 14/04/06 > >

"RAAF lost 5,000 men over Germany." Do you mean RAF, Ted? Lindsay Graham Canberra, Australia ----------------------------------- Please reply via the newsgroup/mailing list, so that all may benefit from the discussion. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted HARRIS" <tedharris@ozemail.com.au> To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 11:29 AM Subject: [AUS-MIL] Re: WW2-Air Force > G'day again. > Very few Aussies understand the HUGE input we had to the RAF in WW2. Even > when Japan attacked us here we did not need the huge numbers of aircrew > that > were needed in Europe. > > Here the numbers of planes on both sides was fairly small by world war > standards and the distances made aircraft carried on ships a better option > in many cases. > > In Europe where they were sending "1,000 Bomber Raids" at night, every > night > (Royal Air Force) and "1,000 Bomber Raids" during the day, every day > (United > States Army Air Force) plus fighters plus Recon. plus Delivery Flights > plus > Coastal Command the demand for pilots and aircrew was staggering. So were > the losses. RAAF lost 5,000 men over Germany. > > It is a section of our Military History that is often glossed over. "The > Few" saved Britain and I love them for it. The "Heavy Boys" who flew the > Lancasters and the Wellingtons and the Liberators etc saved the world and > get forgotten. > > I try to set the record straight with www.diggerhistory2.info where I > reproduce 4 books about the RAAF in WW2. > > Thousands of Aussies, EnZedders, Canadians, South Africans and Rhodesians > trained in Canada for the Empire Air Training Scheme and were posted to > RAF, > RAAF, RCAF units without much regard to nationality. > > The man credited with being the single most "important" part of Britain > winning the Battle of Britain was a Kiwi. > http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-heroes/keith_park.htm > > > > Cheers, > Ted Harris > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Leanne Baulch" <lea.dave@cairns.net.au> > To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 3:15 PM > Subject: WW2-Air Force > > >> Hi everyone, >> >> During WW2 many Aus Air Force people flew missions with the British. Why? > This is just my lack of knowledge coming through here. My great uncle flew > around 22 missions with the British which surprised me. >> >> Also why could they not keep their log books? >> For some reason my great uncle did and hopefully in the next few weeks I > will get to seeit. Should I take photos of the log book? I really feel > this > log book is important. >> >> Thankyou >> Kind regards >> Leanne Baulch >> Canberra >>

I can recommend 'Royal Air Force Bomber Command Losses of the Second World War' in 6 volumes by W.R. Chorley published by Midland Counties Publications, 24 The Hollow, Earl Shilton, Leicester LE9 7NA. ISBN 0 904597 87 3. Each a/c lost is listed with serial no. squadron, base, take off time on last trip with various available notes plus entire crew and force e.g. RAF, RAFVR, RAAF, RNZAF, RCAF, Netherlands, Poland, Free French etc. A surprising number of neutral Yanks served as 'Americans' (they were RAFVR) but, many, many, more served as RCAF. Many transfered to the USAAF post Pearl Harbour but many elected to stay with 'us'. Some of those who transfered elected to continue their 'tour' with the RAF wearing American uniforms, new upgraded ranks, there were no NCO flight crews in the USAAF, and of course the extra pay. Statistically, the RNZAF lost more men per volunteers than any other 'Empire' crews. There is also a Fighter Command Losses book in this series. Cheers from Eng! land Anthony Loates

G'day again. Very few Aussies understand the HUGE input we had to the RAF in WW2. Even when Japan attacked us here we did not need the huge numbers of aircrew that were needed in Europe. Here the numbers of planes on both sides was fairly small by world war standards and the distances made aircraft carried on ships a better option in many cases. In Europe where they were sending "1,000 Bomber Raids" at night, every night (Royal Air Force) and "1,000 Bomber Raids" during the day, every day (United States Army Air Force) plus fighters plus Recon. plus Delivery Flights plus Coastal Command the demand for pilots and aircrew was staggering. So were the losses. RAAF lost 5,000 men over Germany. It is a section of our Military History that is often glossed over. "The Few" saved Britain and I love them for it. The "Heavy Boys" who flew the Lancasters and the Wellingtons and the Liberators etc saved the world and get forgotten. I try to set the record straight with www.diggerhistory2.info where I reproduce 4 books about the RAAF in WW2. Thousands of Aussies, EnZedders, Canadians, South Africans and Rhodesians trained in Canada for the Empire Air Training Scheme and were posted to RAF, RAAF, RCAF units without much regard to nationality. The man credited with being the single most "important" part of Britain winning the Battle of Britain was a Kiwi. http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-heroes/keith_park.htm Cheers, Ted Harris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leanne Baulch" <lea.dave@cairns.net.au> To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 3:15 PM Subject: WW2-Air Force > Hi everyone, > > During WW2 many Aus Air Force people flew missions with the British. Why? This is just my lack of knowledge coming through here. My great uncle flew around 22 missions with the British which surprised me. > > Also why could they not keep their log books? > For some reason my great uncle did and hopefully in the next few weeks I will get to seeit. Should I take photos of the log book? I really feel this log book is important. > > Thankyou > Kind regards > Leanne Baulch > Canberra > > ______________________________

Hi Leanne & Dave In support of what Dave has said in relation to scanning, cutting to CD and distributing. My father was a Padre in WWII and I am amazed what he wrote and kept. Some of which I thought would be a real non-no in war time. He was not at the front line but I imagine that some of this information should not be allowed to fall in to enemy hands. I have done one Power-Point presentation to a family history group and it may yet be that there will be another? I managed to get his official service records while he was alive and many supporting documents. Pay books, photos, all sorts of stuff and only this afternoon viewed my older sister's photo collection with heaps of family photos including some that Dad must have taken during his war service etc. I am to borrow this in a few weeks time when my work load is quieter and I can get to and scan everything. I am a firm believer in sharing as much as possible amongst family to ensure that if there is any unfortunate loss that there is another copy somewhere else that can be recalled. Kind regards Viv Martin .

Leanne, The answer to your great uncle's log book is YES. Scan it page by page & store extra copies on several CD's. Once lost, the original can never be replaced. I would suggest that anyone holding original service records should do the same. I have just scanned my old pay book, AB83, & Demob. book & passed on CDs carrying the images to my family. The AWM can provide service dossiers through their excellent service, but they do not hold the same information as the pay book etc. In regard to the air force, the answer is not all that simple. Here is my best. Firstly, the whole British Empire as it was then known was at war with the Axis, that included us. The war was originally centred on Europe & the Middle East. There was a British Empire Training Scheme - air crew were trained in Canada as well as Australia & I assume, the UK. Trained aircrew were posted to units that had planes but were short of crew. There were RAAF squadrons, but many of the RAAF served in the RAF because that was where the need was. The situation changed when Japan entered the war. My apologies to any ex RAAF for my oversimplification & any errors. Regards, Dave Leanne Baulch wrote: > Hi everyone, > > During WW2 many Aus Air Force people flew missions with the British. Why? This is just my lack of knowledge coming through here. My great uncle flew around 22 missions with the British which surprised me. > > Also why could they not keep their log books? > For some reason my great uncle did and hopefully in the next few weeks I will get to seeit. Should I take photos of the log book? I really feel this log book is important. > > Thankyou > Kind regards > Leanne Baulch > Canberra > > > ==== AUS-MILITARY Mailing List ==== > The Military Historical Society of Australia > http://www.pcug.org.au/~astaunto/mhsa.htm > > > >

Hi everyone, During WW2 many Aus Air Force people flew missions with the British. Why? This is just my lack of knowledge coming through here. My great uncle flew around 22 missions with the British which surprised me. Also why could they not keep their log books? For some reason my great uncle did and hopefully in the next few weeks I will get to seeit. Should I take photos of the log book? I really feel this log book is important. Thankyou Kind regards Leanne Baulch Canberra

On 27 Apr 2006, at 11:54 AM, John Wilson wrote: > the term Commonwealth is now used. The term comes > from the Parliamentary period under Cromwell in British history between > Charles I & Charles II, and can also mean the Commonwealth of > Australia. It is also the official title of some American states eg the > Commonwealth of Massachusetts. > > Yours, John Wilson Commonwealth is a biblical 'term' ! it appears twice in KJV; 2Mac.13 1 [14] So when he had committed all to the Creator of the world, and exhorted his soldiers to fight manfully, even unto death, for the laws, the temple, the city, the country, and the commonwealth, he camped by Modin: Eph.2 1 [12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: Obviously the 'term' indicating a non-hierarchial society had great appeal to Puritans, who set about destroying religious artworks, including the liturgy. We should remember that the King James Bible is overtly propaganda. King James believed in "Divine Right of Kings" and objected stridently to the Geneva Bible, in which the Greek presbuteros was translated as 'Elder', rather than 'priest', and the Greek Ecclesios was translated as 'Congregation', rather than 'Church'. Obviously a military organisation needs to be rigidly hierarchial. Generals decide strategy and issue orders, and privates have to apply themselves to their officers orders, regardless ot the danger to their person. King Charles I attempted to merge the Calvanist Church of Scotland into the Episcopal Church of England, so we had to chop off his head. Howsomever, the Commonwealth was incredibly dull as Puritan values ruled. We had no fun ! So we joyfully celebrate the Restoration annualy on Oak-Apple day. Theatre, music, and festivals returned to England ! Charles II ruled to some extent without submitting to parliament, using cash advanced by the French monarch, but the monarchy never really achieved the ultimate authority of the Norman Conquerors ! HM Governor General may be the Commander-in-chief, but if he attempted action contra-indicated by the Parliamentary government, Her Majesty's Prime Minister would immediatly 'request' the termination of his commission ! He may take the advice of Sir John KERR, and dismiss the Prime-Minister. In this case, Kerr believed the PM did not enjoy 'Supply', and should have stepped down after calling an election. This precept was, and remains controversial. The "Anglo-Saxon" government overwhelmed by William of Normandy at the Battle of Hastings, was much flatter, and the Witan, a precursor of parliament, exercised pre-eminent authority. The Eldermen who were "elected" to the Witan evolved to Earldoms The "New" earls were Norman Barons off course.

Thanks for that Dave I will give it a try ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dixon" <dixond2@bigpond.net.au> To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [AUS-MIL] Goulburn War Memorial > Chris, > Just a suggestion - I recently switched to Mozilla Thunderbird for my > mail - open architecture & free download - & includes an automatic spell > checker. > Regards, > Dave > > Chris Cureton wrote: > > Thanks Linsay, > > ............. > > no this computer does not have spell check sorry ....... > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Lindsay Graham" <LDGraham@aapt.net.au> > > To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 11:10 PM > > Subject: Re: [AUS-MIL] Goulburn War Memorial > > > > > > > >> Chris, have a look at http://www.skp.com.au/memorials/ -- it lists 6 war > >> memorials and honour rolls etc in Goulburn, and is a very useful site for > >> Australian war memorials generally. > >> > >> > >> May I suggest to all that, before asking a question on a mailing list such > >> as this, you at the very least do an Internet search to see what you can > >> find out that way. For example, a Google search for "Goulburn War > >> > > Memorial" > > > >> yields 14,500 hits and several of the first few would have given you a > >> > > good > > > >> start. > >> > >> Sorry to be picky, Chris, but could you also please turn your Outlook > >> Express spell checker on? -- it would make your emails much easier to > >> > > read. > > > >> Actually, OE uses the Microsoft Office spell checker, so if you don't have > >> any of Word, Excel etc you may not have a spell checker in OE. > >> > >> Lindsay Graham > >> Canberra, Australia > >> ----------------------------------- > >> Please reply via the newsgroup/mailing list, so that all may benefit from > >> the discussion. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Chris Cureton" <acu48602@bigpond.net.au> > >> To: <AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com> > >> Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 11:40 PM > >> Subject: [AUS-MIL] Goulborne War Memorial > >> > >> > >> > >>> Hi Listers, > >>> is ther anyone on the list that can help me with information on the > >>> Goulborn > >>> war memorial, where it is and what it looks like would be a good start > >>> > > as > > > >>> I > >>> have been told that it was erected with help from Archdecon Bartlett and > >>> his > >>> wife Mary, > >>> if anyone can tellme anything about it at all it or the Bartlett family > >>> would be most apriciated apreciated > >>> > >>> > >> ==== AUS-MILITARY Mailing List ==== > >> Milton Ulladulla Boer War & WW1 > >> http://www.shoalhaven.net.au/~cathyd/war/ > >> > >> > > > > > > ==== AUS-MILITARY Mailing List ==== > > The Military Historical Society of Australia > > http://www.pcug.org.au/~astaunto/mhsa.htm > > > > > > > > > > > ==== AUS-MILITARY Mailing List ==== > First AIF Order of Battle 1914-1918 > http://www.adfa.edu.au/~rmallett/index.html > >