I just want to tell those asking that I have purchased in the last few days a copy of the book "Greetings From the Land Where Milk and Honey Flows - The German Emigration 1838 -1858" by Patricia Cloos and Jurgen Tampke ISBN: 0 7334 0807 9 from Gould Genealogy in Adelaide. It cost $22-00 plus $8-00 postage total cost $30-00. They have a web site from which I made the purchase. It is https://www.gould.com.au <https://www.gould.com.au/> . Albert Grulke in hot sunny Melbourne

Thank you Kerri, I have that disk so will look it up, and see if there are any more of the family on it. It did think to look into Qld BDM because I have an entry of Catherine into Sydney in 1889 by ship, she called herself Catherine Sellers at this time. I would not have looked for Zoller as I did not know that name at the time. Catherine must have travelled down to Sydney from QLD. Regards, Jill J Yes Jill - it's on the Queensland BDM Pioneer CD. Kerri Hello Kerri, Thank you for this information. One other piece of information together with the Marriage Certificate, or as it now seems a sort of Registration to marry, or what ever it is called, is another photo copy of a list of a family who came out on the ship 'Frits Ruter'. This ship came to Australia in 1879, so William's death would be in the period. Philipp Zella and children the names have been changed to their English equivalent: William; Martin; Ferdinand; Bernard; Phillip; Katerina; Anna; Mary. A note besides Katerina in my Mother's handwriting says 'Dads Mother'.

Hi Am a newcomer to genealogy am trying to find out information for my husband. The book you have mentioned "The land Where milk and honey flows" sounds like it might help could someone please tell me the name of the author as my local bookstore cannot identify it by the name. regards Sandra

Hello Kerri, Thank you for this information. One other piece of information together with the Marriage Certificate, or as it now seems a sort of Registration to marry, or what ever it is called, is another photo copy of a list of a family who came out on the ship 'Frits Ruter'. This ship came to Australia in 1879, so William's death would be in the period. Philipp Zella and children the names have been changed to their English equivalent: William; Martin; Ferdinand; Bernard; Phillip; Katerina; Anna; Mary. A note besides Katerina in my Mother's handwriting says 'Dads Mother'. I feel that the information my mother found was for my older brother who was interested in our family history. Unfortunately, he died several years ago so I cannot ask him what else he had found. Could you kindly tell me where you found the death of Wilhelm please? Regards, Jill Hello Jill Don't know if you already have this information, but Philipp ZOLLER and Anna Maria Francisca KRAMER had a son Wilhelm ZOLLER who died 18 Nov 1878. His death wasn't registered until 1879, and it was a Marine death. So that would indicate that the family didn't arrive until 1879. Regards Kerri ----- Original Message ----- From: Jill Jackson To: AUS-GERMAN-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 12:27 PM Subject: [AUS-GERMAN] Re New Lister Scholer; Sellers; Seidel Good afternoon, My name is Jill Jackson and I have joined this list because I have three German Ancestors in my families. Two on my side and one on my Husbands side. As my Mother and Father are now dead I have no one close to ask these questions. I have found in some of my Mothers papers what I though was a Birth Certificate of my Fathers Mother. I have now found out that it is a marriage certificate of what seems to be my Grandmothers parents. As I do not read German, and the little German I learnt at school has gone. I wonder if there is anyone here on this list that could help me with this document. Grandmother's name was Catherine Sellers, this is anglicised as far as I can work out to be Katerina Zeller or Zella, father Philipp Zoller, Mother Anna Maria Franziska Kramer. They seem to have held this ceremony at St Peter and St Paul Cathedral in Eltville. My other German Ancestor was my GGrandfather on Mothers side, he came into Australia in the 1850's from New Jersey in the USA to the Gold fields, then sailed to Victoria to work on the Victorian Gold Fields where he did by falling down a gold mine. I have many details of his activities in Victoria. My Husband's German Ancestor was Hugo Seidel; he came into NSW before 1900's. It was in NSW that he met a 3rd generation Australian girl married raised a family. He died by accident in 1921 Sydney. Is there any one on this list who has a connection to these three families? If some one can help me with the Translation of the Marriage Certificate, I would be grateful and delighted. Jill Jackson ==== AUS-GERMAN Mailing List ==== For your Aus-German resources go to http://www.ainsleehooper.com/germlinks.htm ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx ==== AUS-GERMAN Mailing List ==== For your Aus-German resources go to http://www.ainsleehooper.com/germlinks.htm ============================== Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx

Yes Jill - it's on the Queensland BDM Pioneer CD. Kerri ----- Original Message ----- From: Jill Jackson To: AUS-GERMAN-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 8:11 AM Subject: RE: [AUS-GERMAN] Re New Lister Scholer; Sellers; Seidel Hello Kerri, Thank you for this information. One other piece of information together with the Marriage Certificate, or as it now seems a sort of Registration to marry, or what ever it is called, is another photo copy of a list of a family who came out on the ship 'Frits Ruter'. This ship came to Australia in 1879, so William's death would be in the period. Philipp Zella and children the names have been changed to their English equivalent: William; Martin; Ferdinand; Bernard; Phillip; Katerina; Anna; Mary. A note besides Katerina in my Mother's handwriting says 'Dads Mother'. I feel that the information my mother found was for my older brother who was interested in our family history. Unfortunately, he died several years ago so I cannot ask him what else he had found. Could you kindly tell me where you found the death of Wilhelm please? Regards, Jill Hello Jill Don't know if you already have this information, but Philipp ZOLLER and Anna Maria Francisca KRAMER had a son Wilhelm ZOLLER who died 18 Nov 1878. His death wasn't registered until 1879, and it was a Marine death. So that would indicate that the family didn't arrive until 1879. Regards Kerri ----- Original Message ----- From: Jill Jackson To: AUS-GERMAN-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 12:27 PM Subject: [AUS-GERMAN] Re New Lister Scholer; Sellers; Seidel Good afternoon, My name is Jill Jackson and I have joined this list because I have three German Ancestors in my families. Two on my side and one on my Husbands side. As my Mother and Father are now dead I have no one close to ask these questions. I have found in some of my Mothers papers what I though was a Birth Certificate of my Fathers Mother. I have now found out that it is a marriage certificate of what seems to be my Grandmothers parents. As I do not read German, and the little German I learnt at school has gone. I wonder if there is anyone here on this list that could help me with this document. Grandmother's name was Catherine Sellers, this is anglicised as far as I can work out to be Katerina Zeller or Zella, father Philipp Zoller, Mother Anna Maria Franziska Kramer. They seem to have held this ceremony at St Peter and St Paul Cathedral in Eltville. My other German Ancestor was my GGrandfather on Mothers side, he came into Australia in the 1850's from New Jersey in the USA to the Gold fields, then sailed to Victoria to work on the Victorian Gold Fields where he did by falling down a gold mine. I have many details of his activities in Victoria. My Husband's German Ancestor was Hugo Seidel; he came into NSW before 1900's. It was in NSW that he met a 3rd generation Australian girl married raised a family. He died by accident in 1921 Sydney. Is there any one on this list who has a connection to these three families? If some one can help me with the Translation of the Marriage Certificate, I would be grateful and delighted. Jill Jackson ==== AUS-GERMAN Mailing List ==== For your Aus-German resources go to http://www.ainsleehooper.com/germlinks.htm ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx ==== AUS-GERMAN Mailing List ==== For your Aus-German resources go to http://www.ainsleehooper.com/germlinks.htm ============================== Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx ==== AUS-GERMAN Mailing List ==== For your Aus-German resources go to http://www.ainsleehooper.com/germlinks.htm ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx

Hi Sandra Greetings From the Land Where Milk and Honey Flows - The German Emigration 1838 -1858 by Patricia Cloos and Jurgen Tampke ISBN: 0 7334 0807 9 I purchased my copy online at Goulds for $22.00 about 6 months ago This is a really long link but it should take you straight to the page at Goulds. http://www.gould.com.au/default.asp?pageid=ProductCatalog&template=PRODUCTCATALOG&catid=953&prodid=10568&oid=FE56FAAF-551F-46B6-9777-35BF6A937411 Cheers Michele

Hello Jill Don't know if you already have this information, but Philipp ZOLLER and Anna Maria Francisca KRAMER had a son Wilhelm ZOLLER who died 18 Nov 1878. His death wasn't registered until 1879, and it was a Marine death. So that would indicate that the family didn't arrive until 1879. Regards Kerri ----- Original Message ----- From: Jill Jackson To: AUS-GERMAN-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 12:27 PM Subject: [AUS-GERMAN] Re New Lister Scholer; Sellers; Seidel Good afternoon, My name is Jill Jackson and I have joined this list because I have three German Ancestors in my families. Two on my side and one on my Husbands side. As my Mother and Father are now dead I have no one close to ask these questions. I have found in some of my Mothers papers what I though was a Birth Certificate of my Fathers Mother. I have now found out that it is a marriage certificate of what seems to be my Grandmothers parents. As I do not read German, and the little German I learnt at school has gone. I wonder if there is anyone here on this list that could help me with this document. Grandmother's name was Catherine Sellers, this is anglicised as far as I can work out to be Katerina Zeller or Zella, father Philipp Zoller, Mother Anna Maria Franziska Kramer. They seem to have held this ceremony at St Peter and St Paul Cathedral in Eltville. My other German Ancestor was my GGrandfather on Mothers side, he came into Australia in the 1850's from New Jersey in the USA to the Gold fields, then sailed to Victoria to work on the Victorian Gold Fields where he did by falling down a gold mine. I have many details of his activities in Victoria. My Husband's German Ancestor was Hugo Seidel; he came into NSW before 1900's. It was in NSW that he met a 3rd generation Australian girl married raised a family. He died by accident in 1921 Sydney. Is there any one on this list who has a connection to these three families? If some one can help me with the Translation of the Marriage Certificate, I would be grateful and delighted. Jill Jackson ==== AUS-GERMAN Mailing List ==== For your Aus-German resources go to http://www.ainsleehooper.com/germlinks.htm ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

Hi Jill I am sorry I cant read German either but you will find these two web pages very helpful. They explain the Terms used on German Documents Baptism http://members.tripod.com/~Stemweder/baptism_sample.htm Marriage http://members.tripod.com/~Stemweder/marriage_sample.htm (these web pages are not the quickest to load, but be patient) Good Links to save for future reference Hope this helps Cheers Michele

Understood Helen, it was a bit of a shock I must admit :) Regards, Jill J -----Original Message----- From: Helen Turner [mailto:helen.turner@optusnet.com.au] sorry Jill, I meant to send the email to the list. I have subscribe to the list on my own computer so I don't have to share with my husband, Ian. sorry about that, you haven't done anything and the members on the Rootsweb mailing list arev ery helpful, kind regards, Helen Turner ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Jackson" <jilljackson@optusnet.com.au> Subject: RE: [AUS-GERMAN] unsubscribe > Thank you Ian Turner, I can only ask WHY, what have I done that has > upset you? I understood that Rootsweb Lists were to help each other with > their family history, to explore and find other people also researching > the same names. > Please explain! > > Jill J > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian Turner [mailto:tymkey@optusnet.com.au] > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 4:52 PM > To: AUS-GERMAN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [AUS-GERMAN] unsubscribe > > unsubscribe > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jill Jackson" <jilljackson@optusnet.com.au> > To: <AUS-GERMAN-L@rootsweb.com> > >> Good afternoon, >> >> My name is Jill Jackson and I have joined this list because I have > three >> German Ancestors in my families. Two on my side and one on my Husbands >> side. As my Mother and Father are now dead I have no one close to ask >> these questions.

Thank you Ian Turner, I can only ask WHY, what have I done that has upset you? I understood that Rootsweb Lists were to help each other with their family history, to explore and find other people also researching the same names. Please explain! Jill J -----Original Message----- From: Ian Turner [mailto:tymkey@optusnet.com.au] Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 4:52 PM To: AUS-GERMAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [AUS-GERMAN] unsubscribe unsubscribe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Jackson" <jilljackson@optusnet.com.au> To: <AUS-GERMAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 12:27 PM Subject: [AUS-GERMAN] Re New Lister Scholer; Sellers; Seidel > Good afternoon, > > My name is Jill Jackson and I have joined this list because I have three > German Ancestors in my families. Two on my side and one on my Husbands > side. As my Mother and Father are now dead I have no one close to ask > these questions. > > I have found in some of my Mothers papers what I though was a Birth > Certificate of my Fathers Mother. I have now found out that it is a > marriage certificate of what seems to be my Grandmothers parents. > > As I do not read German, and the little German I learnt at school has > gone. I wonder if there is anyone here on this list that could help me > with this document. > > Grandmother's name was Catherine Sellers, this is anglicised as far as I > can work out to be Katerina Zeller or Zella, father Philipp Zoller, > Mother Anna Maria Franziska Kramer. They seem to have held this ceremony > at St Peter and St Paul Cathedral in Eltville. > > My other German Ancestor was my GGrandfather on Mothers side, he came > into Australia in the 1850's from New Jersey in the USA to the Gold > fields, then sailed to Victoria to work on the Victorian Gold Fields > where he did by falling down a gold mine. I have many details of his > activities in Victoria. > > My Husband's German Ancestor was Hugo Seidel; he came into NSW before > 1900's. It was in NSW that he met a 3rd generation Australian girl > married raised a family. He died by accident in 1921 Sydney. > > Is there any one on this list who has a connection to these three > families? > > If some one can help me with the Translation of the Marriage > Certificate, I would be grateful and delighted. > Jill Jackson > > > > ==== AUS-GERMAN Mailing List ==== > For your Aus-German resources go to > http://www.ainsleehooper.com/germlinks.htm > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx >

sorry Jill, I meant to send the email to the list. I have subscribe to the list on my own computer so I don't have to share with my husband, Ian. sorry about that, you haven't done anything and the members on the Rootsweb mailing list arev ery helpful, kind regards, Helen Turner ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Jackson" <jilljackson@optusnet.com.au> To: <AUS-GERMAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 4:06 PM Subject: RE: [AUS-GERMAN] unsubscribe > Thank you Ian Turner, I can only ask WHY, what have I done that has > upset you? I understood that Rootsweb Lists were to help each other with > their family history, to explore and find other people also researching > the same names. > Please explain! > > Jill J > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian Turner [mailto:tymkey@optusnet.com.au] > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 4:52 PM > To: AUS-GERMAN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [AUS-GERMAN] unsubscribe > > unsubscribe > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jill Jackson" <jilljackson@optusnet.com.au> > To: <AUS-GERMAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 12:27 PM > Subject: [AUS-GERMAN] Re New Lister Scholer; Sellers; Seidel > > >> Good afternoon, >> >> My name is Jill Jackson and I have joined this list because I have > three >> German Ancestors in my families. Two on my side and one on my Husbands >> side. As my Mother and Father are now dead I have no one close to ask >> these questions. >> >> I have found in some of my Mothers papers what I though was a Birth >> Certificate of my Fathers Mother. I have now found out that it is a >> marriage certificate of what seems to be my Grandmothers parents. >> >> As I do not read German, and the little German I learnt at school has >> gone. I wonder if there is anyone here on this list that could help me >> with this document. >> >> Grandmother's name was Catherine Sellers, this is anglicised as far as > I >> can work out to be Katerina Zeller or Zella, father Philipp Zoller, >> Mother Anna Maria Franziska Kramer. They seem to have held this > ceremony >> at St Peter and St Paul Cathedral in Eltville. >> >> My other German Ancestor was my GGrandfather on Mothers side, he came >> into Australia in the 1850's from New Jersey in the USA to the Gold >> fields, then sailed to Victoria to work on the Victorian Gold Fields >> where he did by falling down a gold mine. I have many details of his >> activities in Victoria. >> >> My Husband's German Ancestor was Hugo Seidel; he came into NSW before >> 1900's. It was in NSW that he met a 3rd generation Australian girl >> married raised a family. He died by accident in 1921 Sydney. >> >> Is there any one on this list who has a connection to these three >> families? >> >> If some one can help me with the Translation of the Marriage >> Certificate, I would be grateful and delighted. >> Jill Jackson >> >> >> >> ==== AUS-GERMAN Mailing List ==== >> For your Aus-German resources go to >> http://www.ainsleehooper.com/germlinks.htm >> >> ============================== >> Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the >> last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx >> > > > > ==== AUS-GERMAN Mailing List ==== > Remember, to unsubscribe, send an email to > aus-german-l-request@rootsweb.com with unsubscribe in the subject line. > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >

unsubscribe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Jackson" <jilljackson@optusnet.com.au> To: <AUS-GERMAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 12:27 PM Subject: [AUS-GERMAN] Re New Lister Scholer; Sellers; Seidel > Good afternoon, > > My name is Jill Jackson and I have joined this list because I have three > German Ancestors in my families. Two on my side and one on my Husbands > side. As my Mother and Father are now dead I have no one close to ask > these questions. > > I have found in some of my Mothers papers what I though was a Birth > Certificate of my Fathers Mother. I have now found out that it is a > marriage certificate of what seems to be my Grandmothers parents. > > As I do not read German, and the little German I learnt at school has > gone. I wonder if there is anyone here on this list that could help me > with this document. > > Grandmother's name was Catherine Sellers, this is anglicised as far as I > can work out to be Katerina Zeller or Zella, father Philipp Zoller, > Mother Anna Maria Franziska Kramer. They seem to have held this ceremony > at St Peter and St Paul Cathedral in Eltville. > > My other German Ancestor was my GGrandfather on Mothers side, he came > into Australia in the 1850's from New Jersey in the USA to the Gold > fields, then sailed to Victoria to work on the Victorian Gold Fields > where he did by falling down a gold mine. I have many details of his > activities in Victoria. > > My Husband's German Ancestor was Hugo Seidel; he came into NSW before > 1900's. It was in NSW that he met a 3rd generation Australian girl > married raised a family. He died by accident in 1921 Sydney. > > Is there any one on this list who has a connection to these three > families? > > If some one can help me with the Translation of the Marriage > Certificate, I would be grateful and delighted. > Jill Jackson > > > > ==== AUS-GERMAN Mailing List ==== > For your Aus-German resources go to > http://www.ainsleehooper.com/germlinks.htm > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > >

Good afternoon, My name is Jill Jackson and I have joined this list because I have three German Ancestors in my families. Two on my side and one on my Husbands side. As my Mother and Father are now dead I have no one close to ask these questions. I have found in some of my Mothers papers what I though was a Birth Certificate of my Fathers Mother. I have now found out that it is a marriage certificate of what seems to be my Grandmothers parents.  As I do not read German, and the little German I learnt at school has gone. I wonder if there is anyone here on this list that could help me with this document. Grandmother's name was Catherine Sellers, this is anglicised as far as I can work out to be Katerina Zeller or Zella, father Philipp Zoller, Mother Anna Maria Franziska Kramer. They seem to have held this ceremony at St Peter and St Paul Cathedral in Eltville. My other German Ancestor was my GGrandfather on Mothers side, he came into Australia in the 1850's from New Jersey in the USA to the Gold fields, then sailed to Victoria to work on the Victorian Gold Fields where he did by falling down a gold mine. I have many details of his activities in Victoria. My Husband's German Ancestor was Hugo Seidel; he came into NSW before 1900's. It was in NSW that he met a 3rd generation Australian girl married raised a family. He died by accident in 1921 Sydney. Is there any one on this list who has a connection to these three families? If some one can help me with the Translation of the Marriage Certificate, I would be grateful and delighted. Jill Jackson

I have family who arrived on all of these ships. The Galvins (James and Mary (Connor) came with 3 children - Patrick, Michael and Mary) and arrived in Sydney on the Lloyds on 29/6/1850 via Plymouth. They were all born in Ennis in Co Clare Ireland. James and Jean Whiteford (Wylie) & 2 children arrived in Melbourne on the Garland on 4/7/1852. They were respectively from Argyllshire and Ayrshire and had married and lived in Campbeltown in Argyllshire prior to emigration. Heinrich Bouffier and Catherine(a) (Web(b)er and their son arrived in Morpeth on 5/7/1849. Heinrich was from Eltville on the Rhine River and Catherine(a) from Erbach near Camberg. I know the Whitefords were assisted immigrants and the Bouffiers were Bounty immigrants. I am interested in finding out whether there is additional information about the ships other than that provided in the State records (NSW and Vic). I have looked up a number of shipping sites, but basically can only find ships built or operating after the 1860s. I am interested in knowing where these ships sailed from for these trips as well as what life would have been like for the duration of the trip. Any information appreciated. Thanks

Hi Albert Have you had a chance to get hold of a copy of "In the Land Where Milk and Honey Flows - The German Emigration to NSW 1838 -1858"? There is a whole chapter of letters written by those who emmigrated to Australia written to their familys in Germany. In these letters there is an enormous amount of contempt held for their mother county. They talk of bloodshed of innocent people, the greed of the rich people, the amount of taxes and tithes demanded for every little aspect of life by the government. One gentleman goes on to say how back in Germany he would have been considered a pauper with his horde of little beggars, in Australia he was simply a father with his family. There is nothing but praise for their new found home. They are all encouraging their family members to come to Australia. This may explain why they held no loyalty or wanted to remember their homeland. This was now their new home and they wanted to become a part of it and forget their life in Germany. The Government Bounty System required that all migrants were married, To comply with this requirement, Kirchner apparently told migrants that they could get married on board ship. The laws in Germany at that time made it expensive to obtain a Civil Marriage certificate, the reason was to reduce the births amongst the poorer classes. However the poor then lived together after a "Betrothal" recognised by families and when they had sufficient money, they married by State Law. The church baptised the children and the father declared his paternity and they were made legitimate when the couple married. The law was such that they couldnt be married by the church until they had their Civil Wedding. This information found on the shipping list of the "Harmony", National Library Reel 2459 fiche 851 Hope this helps Michele Darwin ----- Original Message ----- From: Albert Grulke To: AUS-GERMAN-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 7:57 AM Subject: [AUS-GERMAN] Hunter Valley Germans some questions I have spent half the night bashing the brain box trying to work this out. I am about half way through collating my gatherings on German migration to the Hunter valley in the 19th century and in particular the period 1840-1860. This was no minor movement of people. One document that I have says that in total 800 families migrated to the Hunter from Germany in that period. If that figure is accurate it would place the Hunter reception of German on a par with the Barossa valley. It may even exceed it. Of course we need to accept that a percentage of these migrants never left Sydney and some went further north to the Darling Downs and other parts. However my document says that that was only a small percentage of the 800 families. The rest settled between Maitland and Newcastle and Cessnock. About 53% were Roman Catholic. The rest were protestant and we can assume with confidence that more than 40% of the 47% protestant were Lutheran. So my first quandary: How come they never had a Lutheran pastor to serve their spiritual needs? In Queensland the government, the agents and the people themselves sought and received Lutheran pastors from Germany to serve their spiritual needs. Likewise for the Baptists and the Calvinists. How come that never happened in the Hunter? The thing that really tosses me is the way they changed their names. It seems that in more than one family the name was anglicised not by the next generation but by the migrant himself. Why, why, why? There was no war. This was more then 70 years before the First World War so why change his name? I can understand some slight changes for reason of spelling but to change the name entirely is beyond me. If there were only a few German families then I could understand it but here we have possibly 800 families. Then we find no record of German customs among these people or of their being passed on. In Queensland, Victoria and South Australia the customs were passed on even if they were modified to suit the new environment but in the Hunter it seems not one custom was passed on. It seems that not one custom was maintained once the ship left Hamburg. Why? Did the authorities prevent their maintaining their customs? Did the employers persecute them? Did the neighbours persecute them? Half the neighbours were German anyhow. Were they ashamed of their origin? Why did they just drop their customs? Where in the Hunter can you buy a good old German meat wurst made in traditional style? When they had completed their contract terms and ventured out to buy property they went into general farming. Why did they not continue with the vine growing and wine making? I find not one record of a German vine dresser becoming a wine producer under his own label. It seems that within two generation their German heritage had been forgotten. Emails and documents from descendants of these people who say they had no idea of their German ancestry until they began a genealogy project. Was there some reason of shame? What were they trying to avoid? Is that too harsh a question? I find it intriguing that the Hunter was the first major wine producer in this land yet by the turn of the century it was unknown as a wine area. In fact as I have it at this time the Hunter did not come to prominence as a wine producer until the 1970s yet it preceded the Barossa by about 20 years. Why? These questions have really got to me and I would love to find some answers. Albert Grulke ==== AUS-GERMAN Mailing List ==== For your Aus-German resources go to http://www.ainsleehooper.com/germlinks.htm ============================== Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx

Having read "Perplexed" email , I would like to add my thoughts. My 1st German ancestor to migrate was Ernst A Schrader from Osterode am Harz . He came to Australia on the Beausite in 1866 into Morteon Bay and then he settled mostly in Sydney - he married Lydia Douglas of English/ Scots heritage.. My own Grandmother ,May Ellis of Echuca ,who was his grand daughter ,didnt really know of her German ancestry even though she married a German in 1919.!!- Carl Waldemar Brachmann from Halle Westfalen- a nat. citizen by April 1914. I always wondered why she was allowed to mix / marry a German so soon after the terrible events of WW1, and she was not 21 when she married , therefore needing permission.. After I uncovered all the details of my Aussie ancestors that question became clear - her own mother Etti Schrader -mrs Edward Ellis of Echuca , [ who hid details of her own German background by using her maiden name as a blind ] -was the daughter of a German migrant and probably didnt have any real "angst" about Germans. When my own mother was "tracking square" with my father Edward F C Brachmann , her Irish / English heritage parents liked him but asked her several times if she really wanted to marry a man with a German father - because her own Irish heritage father was Gassed and 80% blinded in the trenches of the Somme in WW1 by Germans. Tricky eh? I would also suggest that if these migrants from Germany were ready to give up all their future in their homeland , maybe they were just willing to be subsumed into the new and evolving nation of Australia with all its people from so very many backgrounds and cultures. I have also been told of the awkward position that people with Germanic surnames were in during both 1st and 2nd wars.- my Brachmann grandfather still had to report to the police each week during WW2 because of his background - he left germany in 1910 and never went back either. He was still regarded as an Enemy Alien in 1937 when he applied for a home loan in 1937-9 . Very invasive questions were asked in the documents applied for and sent to me last week from NAA in Canberra. My father and his brother changed the spelling of their surname during WW@ even though they were serving in the Airforce and Navy. Need I say more ? Their friends and neighbours were losing their menfolk in horrific circumstances due to Germanic agression. Lastly - I feel that my heritage has been taken from me as a result of all this- didnt know i had so much German in me . Yvonne in Melbourne.

Re the mailing: My ggg grandparents (Heinrich Bouffier and Catherine(a) Web(b)er) came to the Hunter on the Parland in 1849. Heinrich was a vine dresser so presumably the family was sponsored for those skills. They came from an area west of Wiesbaden and were Catholics. They established vineyards in the HV eventually (1860s). The family was involved in wine making and Martin is noted as having a vineyard on the north side of Wollombi Brook in the 1860s. The Bouffier family was also involved in Macrobrunners. Look at http://www.sunnycessnock.com/history.html para 9 http://amol.org.au/ which holds oral history tapes, including a couple about the Bouffiers and wine making. or the following quote from http://www.cessnock.nsw.gov.au/Cessnock/index.asp?id=119 "A skilled German vigneron by the name of Martin Bouffier established a vineyard with in Cessnock itself around the same time." This refers to the 1860s. Martin was actually born in the Hunter Valley. Do a search for Macrobrunner Wines. Re anglicisation of names, my gg grandparents (Martin Bouffier and Mary Smith) kept the Bouffier name - didn't anglicise. Heinrich on his naturalisation certificate becomes Henry though. I really know almost nothing about the remainder of the family - there appears to have somewhat of an enstrangement between my grandmother and her father. She was one of 8 children and when her mother died her father remarried within the year (understandably as a farmer with 5 children aged 12 or under). I believe my grandmother wasn't happy about the remarriage. So I can't comment on what the remainder of the family may have felt or known about their "German" heritage. Because of the estrangement I know so little about my family history on that side that I'm visiting the Valley in a few weeks to take photos of gravestones, listen to these tapes and generally do more research. Re "shame" or why the "Germans" in the HV lost that sense of identity I offer the following thoughts about my family. I placed German in parentheses because my mother knew her family on that side came from Alscace-Lorraine. She described them as sometimes being French and sometimes German, dependant on historical quirks of the period. This is also reflected in Heinrich Bouffier's name. That they were of German or French extraction was never a fact which was hidden. I also understand that when the family arrived in 1849, the area they came from west of Wiesbaden was not actually formally part of Germany and wasn't until 1866. Some of the information I have refers to them as from Nassau. If that is correct it may help to explain why some of the "German" immigrants didn't identify themselves as German. They may already have been a hybrid of French and German and one heritage didn't necessarily override the other. The other thing to consider is that, as in my grandparent's case, because they were Catholic there were plenty of Irish and Scottish and other families in the Hunter Valley who were also Catholic which enlarged the groups available to marry into if they intended to remain Catholics. Within one generation of arrival there were out marriages into other cultural/ethnic groups which would have an impact, possibly dilute the "Germanness" of the families. As examples, Martin Bouffier married Mary Agnes Smith who was born in Wollombi I understand and was not a "Schmidt". When she died, he married Honora McGrane who I believe was the daughter of a convict and Australian born, again not of German extraction. My grandmother Catherine Bouffier married Daniel Galvin, an Irish Catholic background. Whose heritage becomes more important to maintain in these cases? Certainly in the Bouffier line there were marriages between what I would asssume are German families (Bouffier/Ansoul). Also, were those of Lutheran faith more likely to marry into "German" families because they constituted most of the available Lutheran families in the area? I'm afraid I don't know very much about cultural background of Lutherans and whether they comprised mainly Germans who migrated to Australia. If that was the case, then those groups would have more reason to maintain the German culture but you've indicated in your mail below that the majority of Germans who came to the HV were Catholics. To my mind that opens up more "out marriage" possibilities for the majority of the group and then more dilution of the concept of being German. Did this happen with other waves of German migration to SA, Qld etc? In addition, at that time the colony, and I htink especially NSW, was moving towards a greater sense of "Australian" identity. Refer http://www.nla.gov.au/ferg/lasie.html about the Ferguson Project. The reference below is taken directly from that site today. "The project will provide access to the published record of life and activity of the period 1840-45, regarded by scholars as seminal in the development of a colonial culture and an emerging sense of an Australian identity in the colonies. This period, following the end of convict transportation to New South Wales and preceding the influx of the gold-rush migrations, heralded the introduction of representative government in 1842 and witnessed the early years of mass free migration to the Australian colonies. It was a period marked by an upsurge in local publication in both the older and newer centres of settlement to meet the demands of the increased population and the commercial opportunities emerging in the colonies. " I think the first sentence outlines what I'm trying to get at. In the 1840s there's a movement towards a more defineable Australian culture. It's possible that people wanted to be part of that and may have chosen to move away from "old" heritages, especially in NSW. My thoughts about this - may be codswallop. PS if anyone has information about the Bouffiers of the Hunter Valley, the Smiths of Wollombi or the Galvins of Muswellbrook I would be most delighted to hear about them. Re Galvins - James and Mary (Connor)) arrived on the Lloyds in 1850. Michael, born c 1842 in Ennis Co Clare, who came with them was my gg grandfather. I think he was too old to have been James's son unless James was having children when he was 16. James was 24 when he arrived, Mary was 29 so I'm assuming Michael was either Mary's child from a previous marriage or possibly related in some other way to James. There was also a 12 year old, Patrick Galvin who came out with them on the Lloyds - definitely not James's son. Michael married Catherine Flanagan and their son, Daniel married my grandmother, Catheirne Bouffier. Smiths - I believe Mary Agnes Smith's parents were Patrick Smith and Mary?.. There is a Patrick Smith listed as a carrier in Greville's Cessnock directory of the 1870s. Really interested in any information about this family. Cheers Anne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Albert Grulke" <grulke@bigpond.com.au> To: <AUS-GERMAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 9:27 AM Subject: [AUS-GERMAN] Hunter Valley Germans some questions >I have spent half the night bashing the brain box trying to work this out. > > I am about half way through collating my gatherings on German migration to > the Hunter valley in the 19th century and in particular the period > 1840-1860. > > This was no minor movement of people. One document that I have says that > in > total 800 families migrated to the Hunter from Germany in that period. If > that figure is accurate it would place the Hunter reception of German on a > par with the Barossa valley. It may even exceed it. Of course we need to > accept that a percentage of these migrants never left Sydney and some went > further north to the Darling Downs and other parts. However my document > says > that that was only a small percentage of the 800 families. The rest > settled > between Maitland and Newcastle and Cessnock. > > About 53% were Roman Catholic. The rest were protestant and we can assume > with confidence that more than 40% of the 47% protestant were Lutheran. So > my first quandary: > > How come they never had a Lutheran pastor to serve their spiritual needs? > > In Queensland the government, the agents and the people themselves sought > and received Lutheran pastors from Germany to serve their spiritual needs. > Likewise for the Baptists and the Calvinists. > > How come that never happened in the Hunter? > > The thing that really tosses me is the way they changed their names. It > seems that in more than one family the name was anglicised not by the next > generation but by the migrant himself. > > Why, why, why? > > There was no war. This was more then 70 years before the First World War > so > why change his name? > > I can understand some slight changes for reason of spelling but to change > the name entirely is beyond me. If there were only a few German families > then I could understand it but here we have possibly 800 families. > > Then we find no record of German customs among these people or of their > being passed on. In Queensland, Victoria and South Australia the customs > were passed on even if they were modified to suit the new environment but > in > the Hunter it seems not one custom was passed on. It seems that not one > custom was maintained once the ship left Hamburg. > > Why? > > Did the authorities prevent their maintaining their customs? Did the > employers persecute them? Did the neighbours persecute them? Half the > neighbours were German anyhow. Were they ashamed of their origin? > > Why did they just drop their customs? > > Where in the Hunter can you buy a good old German meat wurst made in > traditional style? > > When they had completed their contract terms and ventured out to buy > property they went into general farming. > > Why did they not continue with the vine growing and wine making? > > I find not one record of a German vine dresser becoming a wine producer > under his own label. > > It seems that within two generation their German heritage had been > forgotten. Emails and documents from descendants of these people who say > they had no idea of their German ancestry until they began a genealogy > project. > > Was there some reason of shame? What were they trying to avoid? Is that > too > harsh a question? > > I find it intriguing that the Hunter was the first major wine producer in > this land yet by the turn of the century it was unknown as a wine area. In > fact as I have it at this time the Hunter did not come to prominence as a > wine producer until the 1970s yet it preceded the Barossa by about 20 > years. > > Why? > > These questions have really got to me and I would love to find some > answers. > > Albert Grulke > > > > > > ==== AUS-GERMAN Mailing List ==== > For your Aus-German resources go to > http://www.ainsleehooper.com/germlinks.htm > > ============================== > Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. > Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx > > > __________ NOD32 1.977 (20050120) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.nod32.com > >

Albert I wish to comment on the anglicising of their german name. Often, I understand, it would have been easier to take on the name that the authorities were using, either verbally or in writing (their understanding of what was being said to them). This also happened with a number of convicts when the person completing documents could not understand the broad accent of many persons from the north and west of the UK. Some of my German family (in Victoria) changed the pronunciation and spelling of their name in the 1870s. Jennie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Albert Grulke" <grulke@bigpond.com.au> To: <AUS-GERMAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 9:27 AM Subject: [AUS-GERMAN] Hunter Valley Germans some questions > I have spent half the night bashing the brain box trying to work this out. > > I am about half way through collating my gatherings on German migration to > the Hunter valley in the 19th century and in particular the period > 1840-1860. > > This was no minor movement of people. One document that I have says that in > total 800 families migrated to the Hunter from Germany in that period. If > that figure is accurate it would place the Hunter reception of German on a > par with the Barossa valley. It may even exceed it. Of course we need to > accept that a percentage of these migrants never left Sydney and some went > further north to the Darling Downs and other parts. However my document says > that that was only a small percentage of the 800 families. The rest settled > between Maitland and Newcastle and Cessnock. > > About 53% were Roman Catholic. The rest were protestant and we can assume > with confidence that more than 40% of the 47% protestant were Lutheran. So > my first quandary: > > How come they never had a Lutheran pastor to serve their spiritual needs? > > In Queensland the government, the agents and the people themselves sought > and received Lutheran pastors from Germany to serve their spiritual needs. > Likewise for the Baptists and the Calvinists. > > How come that never happened in the Hunter? > > The thing that really tosses me is the way they changed their names. It > seems that in more than one family the name was anglicised not by the next > generation but by the migrant himself. > > Why, why, why? > > There was no war. This was more then 70 years before the First World War so > why change his name? > > I can understand some slight changes for reason of spelling but to change > the name entirely is beyond me. If there were only a few German families > then I could understand it but here we have possibly 800 families. > > Then we find no record of German customs among these people or of their > being passed on. In Queensland, Victoria and South Australia the customs > were passed on even if they were modified to suit the new environment but in > the Hunter it seems not one custom was passed on. It seems that not one > custom was maintained once the ship left Hamburg. > > Why? > > Did the authorities prevent their maintaining their customs? Did the > employers persecute them? Did the neighbours persecute them? Half the > neighbours were German anyhow. Were they ashamed of their origin? > > Why did they just drop their customs? > > Where in the Hunter can you buy a good old German meat wurst made in > traditional style? > > When they had completed their contract terms and ventured out to buy > property they went into general farming. > > Why did they not continue with the vine growing and wine making? > > I find not one record of a German vine dresser becoming a wine producer > under his own label. > > It seems that within two generation their German heritage had been > forgotten. Emails and documents from descendants of these people who say > they had no idea of their German ancestry until they began a genealogy > project. > > Was there some reason of shame? What were they trying to avoid? Is that too > harsh a question? > > I find it intriguing that the Hunter was the first major wine producer in > this land yet by the turn of the century it was unknown as a wine area. In > fact as I have it at this time the Hunter did not come to prominence as a > wine producer until the 1970s yet it preceded the Barossa by about 20 years. > > Why? > > These questions have really got to me and I would love to find some answers. > > Albert Grulke > > > > > > ==== AUS-GERMAN Mailing List ==== > For your Aus-German resources go to > http://www.ainsleehooper.com/germlinks.htm > > ============================== > Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. > Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx >

I have spent half the night bashing the brain box trying to work this out. I am about half way through collating my gatherings on German migration to the Hunter valley in the 19th century and in particular the period 1840-1860. This was no minor movement of people. One document that I have says that in total 800 families migrated to the Hunter from Germany in that period. If that figure is accurate it would place the Hunter reception of German on a par with the Barossa valley. It may even exceed it. Of course we need to accept that a percentage of these migrants never left Sydney and some went further north to the Darling Downs and other parts. However my document says that that was only a small percentage of the 800 families. The rest settled between Maitland and Newcastle and Cessnock. About 53% were Roman Catholic. The rest were protestant and we can assume with confidence that more than 40% of the 47% protestant were Lutheran. So my first quandary: How come they never had a Lutheran pastor to serve their spiritual needs? In Queensland the government, the agents and the people themselves sought and received Lutheran pastors from Germany to serve their spiritual needs. Likewise for the Baptists and the Calvinists. How come that never happened in the Hunter? The thing that really tosses me is the way they changed their names. It seems that in more than one family the name was anglicised not by the next generation but by the migrant himself. Why, why, why? There was no war. This was more then 70 years before the First World War so why change his name? I can understand some slight changes for reason of spelling but to change the name entirely is beyond me. If there were only a few German families then I could understand it but here we have possibly 800 families. Then we find no record of German customs among these people or of their being passed on. In Queensland, Victoria and South Australia the customs were passed on even if they were modified to suit the new environment but in the Hunter it seems not one custom was passed on. It seems that not one custom was maintained once the ship left Hamburg. Why? Did the authorities prevent their maintaining their customs? Did the employers persecute them? Did the neighbours persecute them? Half the neighbours were German anyhow. Were they ashamed of their origin? Why did they just drop their customs? Where in the Hunter can you buy a good old German meat wurst made in traditional style? When they had completed their contract terms and ventured out to buy property they went into general farming. Why did they not continue with the vine growing and wine making? I find not one record of a German vine dresser becoming a wine producer under his own label. It seems that within two generation their German heritage had been forgotten. Emails and documents from descendants of these people who say they had no idea of their German ancestry until they began a genealogy project. Was there some reason of shame? What were they trying to avoid? Is that too harsh a question? I find it intriguing that the Hunter was the first major wine producer in this land yet by the turn of the century it was unknown as a wine area. In fact as I have it at this time the Hunter did not come to prominence as a wine producer until the 1970s yet it preceded the Barossa by about 20 years. Why? These questions have really got to me and I would love to find some answers. Albert Grulke

HI Siegfried, will get onto it asap, thanks for that, Ainslee _______________________________________________ List Administrator of Aus-german-l & hooper-ons-l & deller-l www.ainsleehooper.com GOONS #3895 Hooper, worldwide. -----Original Message----- From: Siegfried Rambaum [mailto:siram@lightlink.com] Sent: Tuesday, 18 January 2005 11:21 AM To: AUS-GERMAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [AUS-GERMAN] Working Email Adress for Paul Farrell Hi, Ainslee ! Paul Farrell reacted to the note I left on a web forum, and here is the email he communicated: => Please contact me at: => dpaul4199@hotmail.com => Great info in response to my original message. Just wanted to => correspond with you direct. => R/S => D. L Paul I hope that something will come out from you comparing notes on the Crossen/Oder Frankes. Best wishes Siegfried ==== AUS-GERMAN Mailing List ==== Remember, to unsubscribe, send an email to aus-german-l-request@rootsweb.com with unsubscribe in the subject line. ============================== View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find marriage announcements and more. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx