Hi Gavin I cannot find any evidence that your Thomas Howard was the son of Thomas Howard per Indian. Before Thomas Howard married Mary Tobin, she, as a convict had to apply for permission to marry him. They did this in 1840 - her stated age at the time was 22 and Thomas was 20. Her age is about right as when she arrived in 1837 her age was 19, but I am not certain about the age of Thomas. According to the 1828 NSW Census, Thomas Howard per Indian and family are recorded as: Thomas 50yo Ann 35 yo Charles 15 Ellen 12 Catherine 9 Jonathan 6 David 6 Hiram 2 In the 1823/4/5 General Muster they are recorded as Thomas - living at Argyle Ann - living at Windsor with her children Charles 12 Ellen 9 Rachael 7 Catherine 5 David 2 Jeremiah 2 Not very consistent.... but no mention of a Thomas on either. In the 1828 NSW Census there is only one Thomas Howard listed who was born in the colony. His age at the time was 11 years, therefore born about 1817. He was an Apprentice to James Bowman at Patricks Plains. I think this may be the same lad who in the 1823/4/5 General Muster List was 9 years of age and living in the Orphan School. Why would Thomas (Indian) and Ann Howard only place one child in the Orphan School and not the others! The NSW BDMs have an entry for a Thomas Howard born about 1817 to Robert and Lucy >From the Col. Sec. State Records of NSW HOWARD, Robert. Per "Neptune", 1790 1823 Oct 24 His son Thomas admitted to Male Orphan School 1823 Nov 20 Application for admission into Sydney Benevolent Asylum (Reel 6055; 4/1762 p.95) 1823 Nov 21 To be admitted into the General Hospital (Reel 6011; 4/3509 p.584 I don't know if you have the book "The Second Fleet 1790" by Michael Flynn but devoted nearly 2 columns about Robert Howard, his two partners, one being Lucy (Louisa) Atherton per Minstrel Perhaps it may be best to check with the person who provided that family tree and ask them how they tie in your Thomas with the Thomas per Indian. Regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Gavin and Marites Spicer Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 10:18 PM To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] AUS-CONVICTS Digest, Vol 4,Issue 8 (Thomas Howard convict marriage) Hi Thanks Les for your help with Robert Lovelock. With my earlier question if convicts where able to marry, I was referring to a Thomas Howard who was transported on the Indian in 1810 with a life sentence but supposedly has married Ann Williams 1811, My Thomas Howard who married Mary Tobin in 1841 according to a family tree on rootsweb was the third child of Thomas and Ann, but I can't find any evidence that Thomas was their third child and now I am baffled how my Thomas came out to Australia and who his parents are.Any one with any clues? Please help. Also I find it puzzling that a life sentenced convict had permission to marry within twelve months of arriving in Australia. and his ticket of leave is 1814 and a pardon around 1818, does this mean that Thomas was still fulfilling his convict sentence after marriage, or when permission for marriage was granted you were set free? Thank you, Gav