Thanks to everyone who has offered comments into the crimes committed and sentences received. I can understand the sentences handed down for the crimes committed were often harsh. However, my brother maintains that some of these men were caught committing serious crimes, such as arson, or committing grievous bodily harm on another, or whatever, but the courts would then downgrade the crime in the records to read that they stole a hat, or a handkerchief, or something similar, in order to give them a lighter sentence - and that our forefathers, rather than being unjustly treated were, in fact, serious criminals. I just fail to understand his argument, and can't see a reason why such a thing would be done. If someone burned my barn down and it was later reported in the newspapers that he had only stolen some articles of clothing, I would be fairly annoyed and would be letting friends and neighbours know what I thought to the court system. But if the whole country was involved in a cover-up along these lines, and everyone was making their opinions known, then I would think it would be well documented in newspapers and books that this was the course of action it had been decided to take in England at the time - and I just haven't found anything saying this in any of the research I have done. Oh, well, it looks like brother and I will just have to agree to disagree - again! Thanks everyone for your insights. Cheers Trish Nowra NSW

Hi Matthew Name: George Bliss Arrived: 1839 Transport: Parkfield Age: 20 Education: None (could not read nor write) Religion: Protestant Marital Status: Single Children: None Native place: Kent Occupation: Farm Labourer Crime: Stealing beef Tried: Kent Quarter Sessions When: 3 January 1839 Sentence: Life Previous crimes: 2 months Ticket of Leave: 47/9 Recommended for Conditional Pardon: 30 March 1853 and was Signed & dated 15 April 1854. Gazetted 27 June 1854 As a Lifer, he was not entitled to a Certificate of Freedom. The Parkfield arrived in PJ on 1 September 1839 from England. It was 496 tons. Master was J. T. Whitesides and Surgeon Super. Alexander Neill He did not apply to marry whilst a convict, nor did he marry a serving convict. Regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Matthew Hall Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 5:55 AM To: AUS-CONVICTS@rootsweb.com Subject: [AUS-CON] George Henry Bliss, arrived 1839 on the Parkfield I'd greatly appreciate any information/indents etc on George Henry Bliss, arrived in NSW in 1839 on board the Parkfield. He ultimately died in Yass in NSW, but I'd like to get a feel for whether he spent time in Sydney and his general time-line., that certificates of freedom, approval to marry etc. may yield. cheers matt -- Matthew D. Hall Washington, DC cell: +1 410 733 9444 home: +1 202 370 6431

My ancestor aged just 16 was sentenced to 7 years for stealing a pair of shoes!!!( source newspaper report of the case in 1842) Other decendants have it as tools not shoes. No records of the quarter court sessions for that time and place still exist. However a polite email with names and dates to the local library asking if there were any newspaper records received a postive result. A suggestion given by another researcher in the same predicament of having no trial records to look at. regards Robyn in Wodonga ----- Original Message ----- From: "tsymonds" <psym8950@bigpond.net.au> To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 10:12 PM Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Truth in sentencing and Physical descriptions > > > Hi Janine, > > Thanks for your comments on sentencing. I've only seen a report in the > newspaper that the sentence was death and then they were reprieved, > receiving 7 years transportation instead. I'm still working on it, so > will > see what else turns up. My brother thinks I am naive in thinking that > gg-grandfather, and a lot of other convicts, were hard done-by, receiving > harsh sentences for minor misdemeanors. His point being that they were in > fact very bad men but the courts recorded their crimes as being much > softer > than they actually were. I just can't see the sense behind his argument - > what difference to the English legal system if they were transporting a > criminal to the other side of the world anyway, whether he received 7 > years > or life? I haven't come across anything in my research that supports his > theory, and maintain that gg-grandfather was really a very nice young man > who was unjustly treated. I was interested to know if it was an accepted > policy for the magistrates to do so. So thank you, and I'll keep looking > through the records to see if I find anything on it. > > Hi also to Alison Briggs, > > My gg-grandfather and his offsider, David Venson and David Bird, who I've > been discussing above, were also aboard the "Gilmore" arriving March 1832. > I requested their convict records from Tas.Archives and received the > indents > with their full descriptions, but I don't know if the master records for > your convicts are complete or damaged as well. Worth contacting > Tas.Archives to ask about it though. > > Cheers, > Trish > Nowra NSW > >> My ancestor was also given a death sentence for larceny (he stole 50 >> sovereigns), however that was overturned and he was given 21 years >> transportation instead. Interesting that your gggrandfather only got 7 >> years when death was the original sentence, I find that a little odd for >> stealing just a hat. I doubt they would have downgraded the charge, >> however >> the seven years appears to be very lenient after the first sentence of >> death. Another of my ancestors was given seven years transportation for >> stealing bedclothes. > > >> The physical description details for my convicts have been removed from >> the bound volume at the Tasmanian archives (i.e. the pages have been torn >> out!!!) and are not on the microfilm copy. The are for the Gilmore which >> arrived at Hobart in March 1832 (Christopher, Charles and James Briggs). > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Dear Lyn, Loved reading your story. For the thousands who did survive the trip to OZ - it was almost like a gift. Like you say - they would not have survived the tough times in England. Australia has these convicts as the backbone of the country. Jane in CA In a message dated 7/15/2008 5:55:55 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, gerryandlyn@dodo.com.au writes: I once read some where that it was a three strikes and you're transported situation. It certainly fits with my family convict. On my g g grandfather's indent it was noted that he was "of idle drunken bad character, indifferent disposition, connected with thieves and prostitutes, connections very bad". He was first conviction was being in "a brawl", the second for "stealing buttons". Both gave him 12 months hard labour in Wakefield prison in Yorkshire. His third conviction for stealing lead sheeting was the one that got him transported to Australia. Here, he was given a second chance. He managed to fall in love and marry, went on to father 10 children who married and multiplied profusely themselves, became a respected member of society and ended up living to the ripe old age of 89. He was also fortunate in that the Ship's surgeon on the Earl Grey, the ship that he was transported on, Colin Arnett Browning, was a deeply religious man, way ahead of his time, who believed in the basic good in all men and who endeavoured to ensure that all "his" convicts were given the opportunity discover God as well as teaching them to read and write on the voyage to Australia. I am not religious but firmly believe that Brown offered the men hope as well as education. (I am actually hoping to do a follow up on the convicts of the Earl Grey "one day". Need to do a Tassie trip for that though.) England in 1842 was not a nice place for most of the "common folk". Life was harsh, conditions very poor. Cities were cramped, cholera epidemics running rife, unemployment high, morale very low. Things were very, very grim. My g g grandfather was a Nottingham lad who was made a ward of the Parish at 9 years of age. He was only 5'3" in height indicating that he probably wasn't well nourished during his early years. I have no doubt in my mind that had he not been sent to Australia he would have died very young in very destitute circumstances. Over the years I've got to know him very well. LOL! Of course, family lore never mentioned his convict history. Instead I grew up being spun a yarn about a Methodist Minister who came to Aus to spread the good word :) Lyn in NSW ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

Hi All, I agree there was no rhyme or reason in the sentences handed down. Three of my convict ancestors had death sentences but all were commuted to varying terms of transportation Edward Shoesmith, Claudine 1829 was convicted of smuggling and transported for 14 years but received his TOL in 1838 and conditional pardon in 1845. John Smith, Shipley 1817 was convicted of horse theft and transported for 7 years but received his COF in 1823 James Elphick, Mangles 1837 was convicted of highway robery and transported for life but received his TOL in 1846. On the other hand Simon Freebody, Surprise 1890 was convicted of stealing a dead lamb and was transported for 7 years. He served his full sentence!! I guess it all depended on whether the judge was having a good day!! Not much has changed!! Cheers Tom

Hi all One thing you have to take into consideration is how many previous convictions the convict may have had. Some crimes may appear to be paltry for the sentence received, but it may have been their 2nd or 3rd offence ( or more) Regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Janese Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 10:42 PM To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: [AUS-CON] Convict Sentencing Hullo List and Trish. Trish I have 11 convicts 4 were given the death sentence, this was later commuted to life in one case and 7 years in the other 3. On 3 different documents regarding one of them, his sentence was recorded different each time. One of my females was given 14 years for a paltry theft, whilst her future husband was given 7 years for a major theft. My youngest convict was 12 the eldest 40 years. Their year range for convictions was 1790 to 1837. Only two of them were from the same area. Jen.

Hullo List and Trish. Trish I have 11 convicts 4 were given the death sentence, this was later commuted to life in one case and 7 years in the other 3. On 3 different documents regarding one of them, his sentence was recorded different each time. One of my females was given 14 years for a paltry theft, whilst her future husband was given 7 years for a major theft. My youngest convict was 12 the eldest 40 years. Their year range for convictions was 1790 to 1837. Only two of them were from the same area. Jen.

Hi Janine, Thanks for your comments on sentencing. I've only seen a report in the newspaper that the sentence was death and then they were reprieved, receiving 7 years transportation instead. I'm still working on it, so will see what else turns up. My brother thinks I am naive in thinking that gg-grandfather, and a lot of other convicts, were hard done-by, receiving harsh sentences for minor misdemeanors. His point being that they were in fact very bad men but the courts recorded their crimes as being much softer than they actually were. I just can't see the sense behind his argument - what difference to the English legal system if they were transporting a criminal to the other side of the world anyway, whether he received 7 years or life? I haven't come across anything in my research that supports his theory, and maintain that gg-grandfather was really a very nice young man who was unjustly treated. I was interested to know if it was an accepted policy for the magistrates to do so. So thank you, and I'll keep looking through the records to see if I find anything on it. Hi also to Alison Briggs, My gg-grandfather and his offsider, David Venson and David Bird, who I've been discussing above, were also aboard the "Gilmore" arriving March 1832. I requested their convict records from Tas.Archives and received the indents with their full descriptions, but I don't know if the master records for your convicts are complete or damaged as well. Worth contacting Tas.Archives to ask about it though. Cheers, Trish Nowra NSW > My ancestor was also given a death sentence for larceny (he stole 50 > sovereigns), however that was overturned and he was given 21 years > transportation instead. Interesting that your gggrandfather only got 7 > years when death was the original sentence, I find that a little odd for > stealing just a hat. I doubt they would have downgraded the charge, > however > the seven years appears to be very lenient after the first sentence of > death. Another of my ancestors was given seven years transportation for > stealing bedclothes. > The physical description details for my convicts have been removed from > the bound volume at the Tasmanian archives (i.e. the pages have been torn > out!!!) and are not on the microfilm copy. The are for the Gilmore which > arrived at Hobart in March 1832 (Christopher, Charles and James Briggs).

Hi All, Just to put in my own two pennorth's worth....................To add some more credence to Trish's story......... My husbands's GGGGrandfather was always said to be a free settler. All the family believed this for 150 years. On further research, he turned out to be a criminal in England and within a year of his arrival in NSW he had changed his name . He was convicted on many accounts and was sentenced to transportation. However, he must have been a *good boy* and was set free from Portland Prison on a conditional pardon(having been in Wakefield Prison at least in 1851.) He married in Sheffield in 1854 and came to Aus. in 1858. Different name, different country but the same wife he married in England. Took upon himself the surname of his wife. No-one will believe me either, so I have to write it up with all references (which I have.) Carolyn. ----- Original Message ----- From: "tsymonds" <psym8950@bigpond.net.au> To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 12:20 PM Subject: [AUS-CON] Truth in sentencing? > > Hi all, > > I have recently found gg-grandfather was not a free settler as we have > been > told all our lives, but in fact a convict - he wasn't found until a few > weeks ago as he had changed his name. His convict records and newspaper > accounts say he and another were sentenced to death for breaking into a > house and stealing a hat, but this was later changed to 7 years' > transportation. > > I have taken this to be the truth, but my brother insists that the English > courts, in an effort to get rid of as many prisoners as possible, would > downgrade the charge to something more lenient (ie - stole a hat) so they > could transport the young and the strong to build the new country. > > I've always known that the healthy, strong men with a trade would almost > be > automatically sentenced to transportation, but I've never heard that > charges > were downgraded in order to do so. Has anyone else heard of this theory? > I > am taking the high moral ground that the law could do whatever it liked at > the time, and would have no need to fiddle with the charges; I would > really > like to win at least one argument with the kid brother, so if anyone can > fill me in on whether the courts did in fact convict on a lesser charge or > not I would greatly appreciate it. > > Cheers > Trish > Nowra NSW > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Murder? My James Mcgrath 1826 was sentenced to life transportation to NSW after he through a stone that killed a policeman he recieved a ticket of leave 10 yrs after his arrival. BUT when the court transcript in read,,,we see that th main witness was sent to Dublin in labourers clothing was accommodated *kept safe* and arrived in court in brand new city mans clothing,,,,,, the number of police in the mallee from one perspective was 13 the otherside counted but 7,,,James had no injuries prior to being pushed up the lane way but after the policeman was seen hit him he had a huge scar across his eyebrow and forehead..............which was not noted by the surgeon at the barracks *me thinks that more agricultural labourers were needed in the colony * all very interesting

What is your convicts name? Kerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "janine h" <jhinton@westnet.com.au> To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Truth in sentencing? > Hi Trish, > > My ancestor was also given a death sentence for larceny (he stole 50 > sovereigns), however that was overturned and he was given 21 years > transportation instead. Interesting that your gggrandfather only got 7 > years when death was the original sentence, I find that a little odd for > stealing just a hat. I doubt they would have downgraded the charge, > however > the seven years appears to be very lenient after the first sentence of > death. Another of my ancestors was given seven years transportation for > stealing bedclothes. > > I also believe that the system did send anyone they could to Australia > because there own penal system was overflowing at the time. > > However there appears to be an anomaly between the stealing of a hat and > getting the death sentence - perhaps there is a mix up there? Do you have > papers about his trial etc? > > Cheers > Janine. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Well Trish, whatever serious crime my forefathers committed I, for one, can honestly say I am glad you and I are here today esp. you for I would not ever have been conceived if you had been judge and jury back then! GRIN --Manaia PS: Regards to your dear Brother. ++++ --- On Mon, 7/14/08, tsymonds <psym8950@bigpond.net.au> wrote: > Thanks to everyone who has offered comments into the crimes > committed and > sentences received. I can understand the sentences handed > down for the > crimes committed were often harsh. However, my brother > maintains that some > of these men were caught committing serious crimes, such as > arson, or > committing grievous bodily harm on another, or whatever, > but the courts > would then downgrade the crime in the records to read that > they stole a hat, > or a handkerchief, or something similar, in order to give > them a lighter > sentence - and that our forefathers, rather than being > unjustly treated > were, in fact, serious criminals. I just fail to > understand his argument, > and can't see a reason why such a thing would be done. > If someone burned my > barn down and it was later reported in the newspapers that > he had only > stolen some articles of clothing, I would be fairly annoyed > and would be > letting friends and neighbours know what I thought to the > court system. But > if the whole country was involved in a cover-up along these > lines, and > everyone was making their opinions known, then I would > think it would be > well documented in newspapers and books that this was the > course of action > it had been decided to take in England at the time - and I > just haven't > found anything saying this in any of the research I have > done. Oh, well, it > looks like brother and I will just have to agree to > disagree - again! > Thanks everyone for your insights. > > Cheers > Trish > Nowra NSW

I'd greatly appreciate any information/indents etc on George Henry Bliss, arrived in NSW in 1839 on board the Parkfield. He ultimately died in Yass in NSW, but I'd like to get a feel for whether he spent time in Sydney and his general time-line., that certificates of freedom, approval to marry etc. may yield. cheers matt -- Matthew D. Hall Washington, DC cell: +1 410 733 9444 home: +1 202 370 6431

Hi Trish, My ancestor was also given a death sentence for larceny (he stole 50 sovereigns), however that was overturned and he was given 21 years transportation instead. Interesting that your gggrandfather only got 7 years when death was the original sentence, I find that a little odd for stealing just a hat. I doubt they would have downgraded the charge, however the seven years appears to be very lenient after the first sentence of death. Another of my ancestors was given seven years transportation for stealing bedclothes. I also believe that the system did send anyone they could to Australia because there own penal system was overflowing at the time. However there appears to be an anomaly between the stealing of a hat and getting the death sentence - perhaps there is a mix up there? Do you have papers about his trial etc? Cheers Janine.

Hi all, I have recently found gg-grandfather was not a free settler as we have been told all our lives, but in fact a convict - he wasn't found until a few weeks ago as he had changed his name. His convict records and newspaper accounts say he and another were sentenced to death for breaking into a house and stealing a hat, but this was later changed to 7 years' transportation. I have taken this to be the truth, but my brother insists that the English courts, in an effort to get rid of as many prisoners as possible, would downgrade the charge to something more lenient (ie - stole a hat) so they could transport the young and the strong to build the new country. I've always known that the healthy, strong men with a trade would almost be automatically sentenced to transportation, but I've never heard that charges were downgraded in order to do so. Has anyone else heard of this theory? I am taking the high moral ground that the law could do whatever it liked at the time, and would have no need to fiddle with the charges; I would really like to win at least one argument with the kid brother, so if anyone can fill me in on whether the courts did in fact convict on a lesser charge or not I would greatly appreciate it. Cheers Trish Nowra NSW

HI, I found my convicts' ships of arrival , the reference numbers and then wrote to the archives office in Tasmania and requested copies of the information for a modest fee. TheVictorian arrival I found listed in a published book "Convicts of Port Phillip District" by Keith Clarke 1999. In Victoria you need to visit the PRO personally or pay a researcher to obtain a copy of the indent. good luck Robyn in Wodonga ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph & Kay Herron" <rkherron@optusnet.com.au> To: <AUS-CONVICTS@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 7:10 PM Subject: [AUS-CON] Indents > Hello list, > How do I get a copy of indents for the following convicts; > Nathaniel Lucas > Olivia Gascoyne > Kennedy Murray > Anne White? > > I am a descendant of all of the above and need to provide indents for the > Descendants of Convicts Group in Victoria. > Can anyone help me with where to start? > > Regards, Kay > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Listers The physical description details for my convicts have been removed from the bound volume at the Tasmanian archives (i.e. the pages have been torn out!!!) and are not on the microfilm copy. The are for the Gilmore which arrived at Hobart in March 1832 (Christopher, Charles and James Briggs). Does anyone know of anywhere else in Australia that a copy of these may have been kept? Any advice much appreciated. Alison Briggs Sydney

One image for Kennedy Murray sent off list. > Hello list, > How do I get a copy of indents for the following convicts; > Nathaniel Lucas > Olivia Gascoyne > Kennedy Murray > Anne White? >

----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph & Kay Herron" <rkherron@optusnet.com.au> To: <AUS-CONVICTS@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 7:10 PM Subject: [AUS-CON] Indents > Hello list, > How do I get a copy of indents for the following convicts; > Nathaniel Lucas > Olivia Gascoyne > Kennedy Murray > Anne White? > > I am a descendant of all of the above and need to provide indents > for the Descendants of Convicts Group in Victoria. > Can anyone help me with where to start? > > Hi Kay From a library that has this quite large index of fiche published by NSW State Records some time ago. and that has a fiche printer reader . Where that library might is hard to say as you give no clue as to your location Indents were called indents and not passenger lists as convicts were considered to be cargo When writing about convicts its important to include the name of the transport they arrived on as this was part of their identity So Olivia GASCOYNE per Lady Penrhyn 1788 , Kennedy MURRAY per Pitt 1792 etc Olivia as been claimed in http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/. Hope this helps bye MargM Beautiful Wyong Shire NSW

That sounds very reasonable...I might investigate! Regards, Kerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rosemary Miles" <rose8@aapt.net.au> To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 1:45 PM Subject: [AUS-CON] National Archives of Scotland > Hi again Kerry > I think my last reply ended up blank again! I'm using a new email > programme and I think I must be doing something wrong! What I intended > to say was > I decided to contact the Assoc of Scottish Genealogists & Researchers > because I felt that in this instance I was probably better to use > someone who could actually access the original documents. I really > don't know if I would have got quite as much information otherwise (not > necessarily knowing exactly what to ask for). I ended up with a copy of > every piece of paperwork concerned with my ancestor's crimes before and > up to her transportation. The only extra cost on top of the charges > that the Archives Office make for the copies and postage was the > researcher's time, in my case, one hour. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message