Hello Listers I have found quite a bit about the above convict online. He came on the Guildford in 1818. The colonial Sec. Correspondence says he applied to marry in 1823. Can this be confirmed? Are there any details of a ticket of leave for him? I can't find anything at SAG though State Records shows a Cert. of Freedom for 1824. Thank you Greg

Hi Alan I am a bit surprised that you have not heard of an Indent before as they are mentioned time and time again. In Australia, they are available, on microfiche, at many libraries, although I am not certain if they are available in the UK. It depends on when your convict arrived as to what information was recorded on the Indent. The early Indents did not record a lot of info, whereas the later Indents did. The following is part of what is available about John Venables Age: 23 Education: None Religion: Protestant Marital Status: Single Children: None Native Place: Hertfordshire Occupation: Labourer Offence: Breaking into dwelling house Place of Trial: Hertford Quarter Session Date of trial: 17 October 1836 Sentence: 7 years Previous convictions 2 months,. 2 months 2 months The Indent for this transport also records Age Height Complexion Hair colour Eye colour and other remarks Lesley Uebel mailto:[email protected] CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Alan Venables Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 8:42 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [AUS-CON] Idents Hi, I'd not come across "Indents" before Lyn's e-mail today. Where are they stored, are they comprehensive, are they searchable on-line? My convict was John Venables arrived on the Charles Kerr in 1837. Other than his TOL I have no definite information about him in Australia. An Indent might give me a few more scraps of info. Alan Venables Hertfordshire, England

One more piece of info for your arsenal. LOL! On arrival in Australia, prior to leaving the ship, the convicts were all interviewed and each was required to state his past crimes. This info was recorded on their indents. So, I think it is safe to assume that the crime we see recorded is the crime for which they were convicted. Now, back to my family history... everyone must be getting sick of me. LOL! :) Lyn >From my own family history notes: About noon, on the 14th of January 1843, the Earl Grey, anchored in Hobart Town harbour. "An officer of the army, who is also a justice of the peace, came on board to visit me and joined in our social worship in the evening, when he delivered an address, in which the men appeared much interested. He specified the temptations to which they would be especially exposed in the colony; gave them seasonable advice, particularly respecting the use of intoxicating liquors, and earnestly exhorted them to become members of the Temperance Society." "The personal inspection of the prisoners in the usual way, and by the proper authorities, commenced on the morning of the 17th, and closed on the 19th." The Archives Office of Tasmania Guide to the Public Records of Tasmania, Section three, Convict Department by P. R. Eldershaw gives a good description of this "personal inspection": "on the arrival of a convict ship: ... a signal is made that there is a transport with male and female prisoners, as the case may be, on board. The Port Officer immediately proceeds... out to sea, to board her; he makes enquiries whether there are any complaints, examines into the state of prisoners on board, into the state of the ship...; no boat but the boat with the Colonial Secretary on board is to be suffered to go alongside, nor is any person to be suffered to leave the vessel except the Surgeon-Superintendent, who comes on shore and brings the despatches with him, and reports to the Governor... then the Colonial Secretary, accompanied by the Colonial Surgeon... goes on board. All the prisoners are drawn up for the Colonial Secretary to examine them; he enquires if there are any complaints.... These enquiries are not of a very minute nature, but general enquiries as to the state of the ship.... The Surgeon- Superintendent presents what I think is called the hulk list; however, it is a return of all the prisoners who are on board, drawn up by himself.... He minutely marks down every occurrence during the voyage.... The Surgeon-Superintendent delivers in a return showing the name, the number, the age, the birth-place, the crime, the period of conviction, when and where the sentence, whether married or single, whether he can read or write, or whether he can only read, or whether he can do neither, where taught, his trade, the character he brought from the gaoler, the character from the hulk, the alleged qualifications, what he is able to do and then his behaviour on board the transport. In addition... the Surgeon- Superintendent presents a despatch from the Secretary of State, which includes the indent, which is a nominal return of all the prisoners on board, their period of sentence, and some few other particulars connected with them, and the crime for which they have been transported, having the signature of the Secretary of State. Then... the Colonial Secretary transmits copies of these papers immediately to the Muster-master.... The Muster-Master... immediately prepares two large abstracts, and in those abstracts are inserted such particulars as he wishes to have before him on making his inspection on board the transport; he then on the following day... proceeds on board accompanied by the Principal Superintendent of Convicts; he then makes a most minute examination of every prisoner on board. With the information which he had collected from the Surgeon-Superintendent and from the hulk list he has already some part of the history of the convict before him, and with that information he generally draws from him many more particulars. The man perceives at once that the officer who is examining him does know something of his history; and not being quite conscious how much of it is known, he reveals, I should think, generally a very fair statement of his past life, apprehensive of being detected in stating what is untrue." ----- Original Message ----- From: "tsymonds" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Truth in Sentencing > Brilliant, thanks for all that. My brother heard an interview on ABC > radio > where a professional genealogist (a Canadian) maintained that the crimes > the > convicts were transported for were not the crimes that were recorded > against > their names, and the original crimes were far more serious. I hadn't > heard > this theory before, and didn't believe his theory, so put it out there for > the List to comment on, to see if anyone else had come across it. Many > thanks for all the feedback, and for the "Treatise", which is quite > fascinating and answers a lot of questions (thanks for typing it up, it > must > have taken ages). > Best wishes to all, > Trish > Nowra NSW >

Brilliant, thanks for all that. My brother heard an interview on ABC radio where a professional genealogist (a Canadian) maintained that the crimes the convicts were transported for were not the crimes that were recorded against their names, and the original crimes were far more serious. I hadn't heard this theory before, and didn't believe his theory, so put it out there for the List to comment on, to see if anyone else had come across it. Many thanks for all the feedback, and for the "Treatise", which is quite fascinating and answers a lot of questions (thanks for typing it up, it must have taken ages). Best wishes to all, Trish Nowra NSW > OK guys, I did a search on Google books and here's the official list of > crimes and punishments taken from "A Treatise on the Police of the > Metropolis By Patrick Colquhoun" Published in 1806. > > 1. CRIMES punishable by the Deprivation of Life; and where upon the > Ccnviction of the Offenders, the sentence of Death must , be pronounced by > the Judge. - Of these, it has been stated, the whole, on the authority of > Sir William Blackstone, including all the various shades of the same > offence, is about 160 in number. > >

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jessie Dee" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 8:28 AM Subject: Joseph Littler convict >I have a convict early 1800's Joseph Littler have his indents etc >says left behind 2 in England how do I find out who the 2 were >researched heaps but nothing Joseph had about 9 children here before he >married so I thought it may of been a wife & child any clues for >me thanks Jessie > >

Hi, I'd not come across "Indents" before Lyn's e-mail today. Where are they stored, are they comprehensive, are they searchable on-line? My convict was John Venables arrived on the Charles Kerr in 1837. Other than his TOL I have no definite information about him in Australia. An Indent might give me a few more scraps of info. Alan Venables Hertfordshire, England

One of the conditions placed on the Exiles was that were not to return to the United Kingdom until the expiry of their original sentence. This condition was imposed in 1845 because, although it was not a condition at the start of the Exile scheme, a number of the earlier arrivals did take advantage of their pardon and return to England. The powers that be felt that this was undesirable and imposed the restriction. By returning to England shortly after arrival they were defeating the purpose of the scheme, which was to provide a remedy for perceived labour shortages in the colonies. Scott Brown > Ged & Joan BARRY <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Liz, > > Unfortunately Philip Reeves did not apply for a conditional pardon, but > seemed to serve his sentence of 15 years out in Queensland. His brother > George Smith did apply for a conditional pardon so I do now have his > description. > > Being a convict exile, is it known if these particular convicts were > allowed > to return to England, once their sentence was served. > > Thank you listers for your help. > > Joan > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > Paul,Lorraine,Des > Heuston > Sent: Wednesday, 16 July 2008 12:16 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Physical Description > > Hi Liz > Are you related to edward collins, convict , sent to australia ? > Lorraine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "elizabeth edwards" <[email protected]> > To: "convicts rootsweb" <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:02 AM > Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Physical Description > > > > > > Hi Joan, > > Do you have the Certificates of Freedom for your convicts? The TOL > for my > > > convict ancestor did not give a physical description but it was on his > > > certificate of freedom, also on the convict indent for the ship. > > Best wishes > > Liz > > _________________________________________________________________ > > The John Lewis Clearance - save up to 50% with FREE delivery > > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/101719806/direct/01/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

OK guys, I did a search on Google books and here's the official list of crimes and punishments taken from "A Treatise on the Police of the Metropolis By Patrick Colquhoun" Published in 1806. 1. CRIMES punishable by the Deprivation of Life; and where upon the Ccnviction of the Offenders, the sentence of Death must , be pronounced by the Judge. - Of these, it has been stated, the whole, on the authority of Sir William Blackstone, including all the various shades of the same offence, is about 160 in number. The principal are the following : *Treason, and Petty Treason; Seepage 38, &c. Under the former of these is included the Offence of Counterfeiting the Gold and Siver Coin, See page 191 - 211. *Murder *Arson, or wilfully and maliciously burning a House, Barns with Corn *Rape, or the forcible violation of chastity *Stealing an Heiress *Sodomy, a crime against nature, committed either with man or beast *Piracy, or robbing ships and vessels at sea ; under which is included, the offences of Sailors forcibly hindering their captains from fighting *Forgery of Deeds, Bonds, Bills, Notes, Public Securities, *Clerks of the Bank embezzling Notes, altering Dividend Warrants ; Paper Makers, unauthorised, using moulds for Notes, &c. *Destroying Ship's, or setting them on Fire *Bankrupts not surrendering, or concealing their Effects *Burglary, or House Breaking in the night time *Highway Robbery *House Breaking in the day time *Privately Stealing or Picking Pockets above one Shilling *Shop Lifting above Five Shillings *Stealing Bonds, Bills, or Bank Notes *Stealing Bank Notes, or Bills from Letters *Stealing above 40s in any House *Stealing above 40s on a River *Stealing Linen, &c. from Bleaching Grounds, &c. or destroying Linen therein *Maiming or Killing Cattle maliciously, *Stealing Horses, Cattle or Sheep *Shooting at a Revenue Officer : or at any other Person *Pulling down Houses, Churches, &c, *Breaking down the head of a Fish- Pond, whereby Fish may be lost, *Cutting down Trees in an Avenue, Garden, &c. *Cutting down River or Sea Banks *Cutting hop Binds *Setting fire to coal mines *Taking a Reward for helping another to Stolen Goods, in certain cases, *Returning from Transportation; or being at large in the Kingdom after Sentence *Stabbing a Person unarmed, or not having a weapon drawn, if he die in six months *Concealing the death of a Bastard Child *Maliciously maiming or disfiguring any person, &c. lying in wait for the purpose *Sending Threatening Letters *Riots by twelve or more, and not dispersing in an hour after proclamation *Being accessaries to Felonies deemed capital *Stealing Woollen Cloths from Tenter Grounds *Stealing from a Ship in Distress *Government Stores, embezzling, burning or destroying in *Dock-Yards; in certain cases, *Challenging Jurors above 20 in capital felonies ; or standing mute *Cottons, selling with forged Stamps *Deer-Stealing, second offence ; or even first offence, under Black Act, not usually enforced *Uttering counterfeit Money, third offence *Prisoners under Insolvent Acts guilty of perjury *Destroying Silk or Velvet in the loom ; or the Tools for *manufacturing thereof; or destroying Woollen Goods, Racks or Tools, or entering a House for that purpose *Servants purloining their Masier's Goods, value 40s. *Personating Bail ; or acknowledging fines or judgments in another's name *Escape by breaking Prison in certain cases *Attempting to kill Privy Counsellors, &c. *Sacrilege *Smuggling by persons armed ; or assembling armed for that purpose *Robbery of the Mail *Destroying Turnpikes or Bridges, Gates, Weighing Engines, Locks, Sluices, Engines for Draining Marshes, &c. *Mutiny, Desertion, &c. by the Martial and Statute Law *Soldiers or Sailors enlisting into Foreign Seivice. CRIMES denominated Single Felonies ; punishable by Transportation. Whipping, Imprisonment, the Pillery, and Hard Labour in Houses of Correction, according the nature of the Offence. The pincipal of which are the following: *Grand Larceny, which comprehends every spesies of Theft above the value of one shilling, not otherwise distinguished *Recieving or buying Stolen Goods, Jewells, Plate *Ripping and stealing Lead, Iron, Copper, &c or buying or recieving *Stealing (or receiving when stolen] Ore from Black Lead Mines *Stealing from Furnished Lodgings *Setting fire to Underwood *Stealing Letters, or destroying a Letter or Packet, advancing the Postage, and Secreting the Money *Embezzling Naval Stores, in certain cases, *Petty Larcenies, or Thefts under one Shilling *Assaulting with an intent to Rob *Aliens returning after being ordered out of the kingdom *Stealing Fish from a Pond or River - Fishing in inclosed Ponds, and buying stolen Fish *Stealing Roots, Trees, or Plants, of the value of 5s. or destroying them *Stealing Children with their apparel *Bigamy, or Marrying more Wives or Husbands than one (now punishable with transportation) *Assaulting and Cutting, or Burning Clothes *Counterfeiting the Copper Coin, £c. *Marriage, solemnizing clandestinely *Manslaughter, or killing another without Malice, &c. *Cutting or Stealing Timber Trees, &c. *Stealing a Shroud out of a Grave *Watermen carrying too many passengers in the Thames, if any drowned 3. OFFENCES denominated Misdemeanors, punishable by Fine' Imprisonment, Whipping, and the Pillory. The principal of which are the following : *Perjury, or taking a false Oath in a judicial proceeding, &c. *Frauds, by Cheating, Swindling contrary to the rules of common honesty, &c. &c. *Conspiracies, for the purpose of injuring or defrauding others *Assaults by striking or beating another person, &c. *Stealing Dead Bodies *Stealing Cabbages, Turnips, &c. growing *Cutting and Stealing Wood and Trees *Robbing Orchards and Gardens *Stealing Deer from Forests *Stealing Dogs *Setting Fire to a House to defraud the Insurance Office *Making and selling Fire-Works and Squibs *Throwing the same when on fire about the streets *Uttering Base Money *Selling Base Money under its denominated value *Embezzlement in the Woollen, Silk, and other Manufactures *Offences by Artificers and Servants in various Trades *Combinations and Conspiracies for raising the price of Wages, &c. *Smuggling Run Goods, and other Frauds relative to the Excise and Customs *Keeping Bawdy Houses and other Disorderly Houses 4. IDLE and Disorderly Persons, described by the Act of the l7th Geo. 11, cap.5 and subsequent Acts: punishable with one Month's Imprisonment - namely, 1. Persons threatening to run away and leave their wives on Children on the Parish 2. Persons who tipple in Ale Houses, and neglect their Families, 3. Persons who shall unlawfully return to the Parish or place . from which they have been legally removed, without bringing a Certificate. 4. Persons, who sot having wherewithal to maintain themselves, live idly without employment, and refuse to work fur the usual Wages. 5. Persons begging in the streets, highways, &c. 5. ROGUES and VAGABONDS described by the said Act of the 17th Geo. II. cap. 5. and subsequent Acts ; punishable by Six Mouths' Imprisonment - namely, 1. Persons going about as Patent Gatherers, or Gatherers of Alms, under pretence of Loss by Fire or other casualty 2. Fencers, Bearwards, Strolling Players of Interludes, or other Entertainments 5. Minstrels, (except those licensed by the Lord Button in Cheshire) 4. Persons pretending to be, and wandering in the habit of Gypsies 5. Fortunc-Tellers, pretending skill in Physiognomy, Palmistry, or using any subtle craft to deceive and impose on others 6. Persons playing or betting at any unlawful Games or Plays 7. Persons who run away, and leave their Wives and Children upon the Parish 8. Petty Chapmen and Pedlars wandering abroad without a Licence 9. Persons wandering abroad, and lodging in Ale-Houses, Out. Houses, or the open Air, and not giving a good account of themselves 10. Persons wandering abroad, and pretending to be Soldiers or Sailors, without proper certificates from their Officers, or Testimonials from Magistrates. 11. Persons wandering abroad, pretending to go to work in Harvest, without a proper Certificate from the Parish. 12. Persons having Impelments of House-breaking or Offensive Weapons, with a Felonious intent. 13. Persons concerned in illegal Lottery Transactions, as described in the Lottery Acts 6. INCORRIGIBLE ROGUES, punishable with Two Years'Imprisonment and Whipping, or Transportation for Seven Years,- if they break out of Prison - namely, 1. Persons stiled End-Gatherers, buying, collecting, or receiving Ends of Yarn in the Woollen Branch, against the Stat. 18 Geo I. cap. 23. 2. Persons, who being Rogues and Vagabonds, have escaped after being apprehended, or who shall refuse to be examined by a Magistrate, or who shall give a false account of themselves after being warned of their punishment. 3. Persons who shall escape out of any House of Correction before the period of their imprisonment expires. 4. Persons, who being once punished as Rogues and Vagabonds, shall again commit the same offence. "The crimes mentioned in the first and second classes of the foregoing Enumeration (except petty Larceny) are always tried by the Superior Courts" "The offences specified in the third class, as also Petty Larceny, and every species of misdemeanor and vagrancy, are generally tried, (with some few exceptions) by the Justices in their General and Quarter Sessions, where, in certain cases in Middlesex, they act under a commission of Oyer and Terminer. The Magistrates in Petty Sessions, and in several instances a single Magistrate, have also the power of convicting in a summary way, for a variety of small misdemeanors, and acts of vagrancy; and of punishing the delinquents with fine and imprisonment."

Hi Liz, Unfortunately Philip Reeves did not apply for a conditional pardon, but seemed to serve his sentence of 15 years out in Queensland. His brother George Smith did apply for a conditional pardon so I do now have his description. Being a convict exile, is it known if these particular convicts were allowed to return to England, once their sentence was served. Thank you listers for your help. Joan -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul,Lorraine,Des Heuston Sent: Wednesday, 16 July 2008 12:16 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Physical Description Hi Liz Are you related to edward collins, convict , sent to australia ? Lorraine ----- Original Message ----- From: "elizabeth edwards" <[email protected]> To: "convicts rootsweb" <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:02 AM Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Physical Description > > Hi Joan, > Do you have the Certificates of Freedom for your convicts? The TOL for my > convict ancestor did not give a physical description but it was on his > certificate of freedom, also on the convict indent for the ship. > Best wishes > Liz > _________________________________________________________________ > The John Lewis Clearance - save up to 50% with FREE delivery > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/101719806/direct/01/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

To understand the reasons for transportation to Australia, and for commutation of sentences to transportation isn't difficult. You only need to read some of the history and social history of the times - what was happening in England and why. Times, mores and values were different then and you need to come at this subject from a "then" mentality, not a "now" mentality. England had been happily dumping its felons off to America, but after the war when they were no longer able to do this, things got bad in England. The goals were overflowing, the Thames and other anchorages were full of hulks crammed with convicts, and conditions in both appalling. Poverty, and illnesses which swept through the population, meant many of the poor had no recourse other than crime to keep body and soul alive. And Mother England had nowhere to get rid of the huge numbers of convicts & had to find some solution to this crisis. The timing of Cook's discoveries must have seemed quite fortuitous and the Government hatched the plan to send their convicts to the great south land. There was somewhere far away from which these unwanted masses were unlikely to be able to escape, or return to worry the authorities in their mother land. They could be exiled there and either fend for themselves or die. I don't imagine the Govt placed any value on them or really cared what happened after they got rid of them. Nor do I think there was any great plan to start up a whole new country "downunder". Their motivation was to find a place to dump their unwanted felons - to get rid of the masses who had no value in their society. And many of the sentences commuted to transportation were done for the sake of expediency, not clemency. A life sentence in England meant the convict had to be housed - commution to transportation conveniently meant he did not. As the colony progressed, various Governors were also writing to England and asking for more prisoners fit for the hard physical work the making of the colony was demanding. I'm pretty sure too that "3 strikes" is a much more modern American invention. Have never read anything like this pertaining to convict sentencing, but would be happy to review my opinion if anyone can provide references for this in 16-17c England court system. Regards Pam

Thank you Pam for you concise, and interesting outline, for understanding the reasons of transportation to NSW with English criminals, rather then throwing them into their over crowded jails. Regards Jill J -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:aus-convicts- To understand the reasons for transportation to Australia, and for commutation of sentences to transportation isn't difficult. You only need to read some of the history and social history of the times - what was happening in England and why. Times, mores and values were different then and you need to come at this subject from a "then" mentality, not a "now" mentality. England had been happily dumping its felons off to America, but after the war when they were no longer able to do this, things got bad in England.

Hi Liz Are you related to edward collins, convict , sent to australia ? Lorraine ----- Original Message ----- From: "elizabeth edwards" <[email protected]> To: "convicts rootsweb" <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:02 AM Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Physical Description > > Hi Joan, > Do you have the Certificates of Freedom for your convicts? The TOL for my > convict ancestor did not give a physical description but it was on his > certificate of freedom, also on the convict indent for the ship. > Best wishes > Liz > _________________________________________________________________ > The John Lewis Clearance - save up to 50% with FREE delivery > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/101719806/direct/01/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I once read some where that it was a three strikes and you're transported situation. It certainly fits with my family convict. On my g g grandfather's indent it was noted that he was "of idle drunken bad character, indifferent disposition, connected with thieves and prostitutes, connections very bad". He was first conviction was being in "a brawl", the second for "stealing buttons". Both gave him 12 months hard labour in Wakefield prison in Yorkshire. His third conviction for stealing lead sheeting was the one that got him transported to Australia. Here, he was given a second chance. He managed to fall in love and marry, went on to father 10 children who married and multiplied profusely themselves, became a respected member of society and ended up living to the ripe old age of 89. He was also fortunate in that the Ship's surgeon on the Earl Grey, the ship that he was transported on, Colin Arnett Browning, was a deeply religious man, way ahead of his time, who believed in the basic good in all men and who endeavoured to ensure that all "his" convicts were given the opportunity discover God as well as teaching them to read and write on the voyage to Australia. I am not religious but firmly believe that Brown offered the men hope as well as education. (I am actually hoping to do a follow up on the convicts of the Earl Grey "one day". Need to do a Tassie trip for that though.) England in 1842 was not a nice place for most of the "common folk". Life was harsh, conditions very poor. Cities were cramped, cholera epidemics running rife, unemployment high, morale very low. Things were very, very grim. My g g grandfather was a Nottingham lad who was made a ward of the Parish at 9 years of age. He was only 5'3" in height indicating that he probably wasn't well nourished during his early years. I have no doubt in my mind that had he not been sent to Australia he would have died very young in very destitute circumstances. Over the years I've got to know him very well. LOL! Of course, family lore never mentioned his convict history. Instead I grew up being spun a yarn about a Methodist Minister who came to Aus to spread the good word :) Lyn in NSW

Three strikes and you're transported doesn't appear to have been the norm in Scotland in the 1840s. My great great great grandmother was only transported after her sixth offence. However I'm not surprised at descendants growing up with "cover stories" of their errant ancestors. My only surving aunt, who is in her nineties and still living in the UK was told about our convict ancestor and refuses to believe it, totally convinced that researching your family tree is just "digging for dirt". I guess she's not going to be a lot of help on latter generations now!

Yes Tom. I agree 100%. How else how could so many of the Irish woman have reading and other skills.

Trish, As I have always maintained. "Our ancestors were handpicked by the best judges in England"!! Cheers Tom

Thanks again for the interesting comments, especially Carol and Tom, for confirming what I believed, that there was no point in the English court system downgrading the charges to a minor charge, and to Jan for the info on whole families committing crimes to be together; a worthy point on free passage, as I've been told of cases where letters were written home advising family to commit a minor crime so they could be transported - and benefit from a healthier lifestyle, good food, better weather - gee, who wouldn't want to come to Australia? Cheers Trish

Hi Trish, I agree with you. None of my ancestors appear to have had their crimes downgraded. As I said in an earlier post they were charged and sentenced for smuggling, horse theft and highway robbery. If these were the downgraded charges I hate to think what they really did!! On the other hand some of the sentences handed down to some of my ancestors appear very harsh. Sarah Donnelly, Mary Anne 1791, 7 years transportation for stealing 3 pieces of ribbon. Mary Stoker, Indispensable 1796, 7 years transportation for stealing 2 yds printed cotton. Maybe the judges wanted to balance up the population of the new colony!! Cheers Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "tsymonds" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 11:36 AM Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Truth in Sentencing > > > Thanks to everyone who has offered comments into the crimes committed and > sentences received. I can understand the sentences handed down for the > crimes committed were often harsh.

Hi Trish, I have to say I do not believe the original crime for which a convict was convicted was changed except in a very few rare circumstances where political interference took place. Convicts were charged in different levels of Courts (Quarter Sessions, Assizes, Central Criminal Court, Court Martial etc) and as far as I am aware were not allowed any defence lawyer. They were allowed 3 character witnesses to speak on their behalf. The time between apprehension and sentencing was often quite long. The original crime was recorded by the police and needed witnesses to verify the circumstances before a convict was charged. I do not see how it would be possible to falsify these records on a country wide basis. It was often the case that if the convict had "friends in high places" to petition on their behalf the original sentence was commuted but the crime remained as recorded. Their past criminal record was very pertinent to the eventual sentence. Several of the early Governors of NSW wrote to England complaining that the "thieves and pickpockets of London" who were sent out in droves were of no use to a fledgling colony which needed skilled labour and healthy robust workers. Their letters implored the Colonial Secretary to send the latter type of convict. This would seem to indicate that the authorities were only interested in emptying the jails and paid no heed to the skills or profession of the convicts, at least in the earlier years. There are also many recorded instances of people deliberately committing minor crimes with the sole aim of being transported to join family already here. My 2 cents worth, Carol

Does your brother offer any evidence that this happened? It has been well documented that most of the convicts committed no further crimes after arriving in NSW (those that did being sent on to Norfolk Is, Moreton Bay or New Zealand). The powers that were in the colony wanted to rid their new home of the "taint". If they had been serious and hardened criminals surely they would have re-offended and been sent further afield. I have also read that whole families committed minor crimes with the aim of being transported and thus receiving a free passage to Australia. Perhaps the initial death sentence was given in attempt to curtail this practice. Cheers, Jan in fleetingly sunny Queensland ----- Original Message ----- From: "tsymonds" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 11:36 AM Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Truth in Sentencing > > > Thanks to everyone who has offered comments into the crimes committed and > sentences received. I can understand the sentences handed down for the > crimes committed were often harsh. However, my brother maintains that > some > of these men were caught committing serious crimes, such as arson, or > committing grievous bodily harm on another, or whatever, but the courts > would then downgrade the crime in the records to read that they stole a > hat, > or a handkerchief, or something similar, in order to give them a lighter > sentence - and that our forefathers, rather than being unjustly treated > were, in fact, serious criminals. I just fail to understand his argument, > and can't see a reason why such a thing would be done. If someone burned > my > barn down and it was later reported in the newspapers that he had only > stolen some articles of clothing, I would be fairly annoyed and would be > letting friends and neighbours know what I thought to the court system. > But > if the whole country was involved in a cover-up along these lines, and > everyone was making their opinions known, then I would think it would be > well documented in newspapers and books that this was the course of action > it had been decided to take in England at the time - and I just haven't > found anything saying this in any of the research I have done. Oh, well, > it > looks like brother and I will just have to agree to disagree - again! > Thanks everyone for your insights. > > Cheers > Trish > Nowra NSW > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >