Thank you lesley, greatly appreciated. now another question. How would I get the full list of Passengers on the Bengal Merchant. regards. Glenys ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lesley Uebel" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] John WISHART - Bengal Merchant 1838 > Hi Glenys > > > There are a few ways to search for Ticket of Leaves in NSW > > 1. Many Indents note the TOL number on them as well as Certificate of > Freedom > numbers and some pardons > > > 2. The State Records of NSW *sometimes* note the TOL number on the > Certificate > of Freedom Index. > > > 3. The SAG web site lists most of the Ticket of Leave numbers..... please > note > *most* not *all* > > > I noted about 18,000 of them on one of my CDs although I did not continue > adding > them once SAG had placed details on the web > > > Tickets of Leave are available on microfilm at many large libraries in NSW > and > State Libraries in Australia. > > > I cannot assist with the WA details as that is a little out of my area. > The > convict Central web site does list the nearly 10,000 male convicts to WA > with > their details, although not Ticket of Leave. You are probably aware that > there > is a Rootsweb WA Convicts List > > > Regards > > Lesley Uebel > mailto:[email protected] > CLAIM A CONVICT > http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Glenys Woosnam > Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 7:35 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] John WISHART - Bengal Merchant 1838 > > > Hi Lesley, could you please tell me how to go about getting the TOL for > convicts in W.A. as well as NSW. > Thanks. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Lesley, could you please tell me how to go about getting the TOL for convicts in W.A. as well as NSW. Thanks. Glenys West Aust. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lesley Uebel" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 6:55 PM Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] John WISHART - Bengal Merchant 1838 Hi A Ticket of Leave will provide you with the district he was living in at the time he received it - not just that he was living in NSW. *Sometimes* a ticket will also provide other information that may be useful Regards Lesley Uebel mailto:[email protected] CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Scott Alexander Wishart Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 7:39 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] John WISHART - Bengal Merchant 1838 Hi Lesley & Martin, Many thanks for your messages. Yes, I haven¹t found a death for John yet, I¹ve seen several certificates, but none as yet are my man. I¹ve also entertained the idea that he returned to the UK, but have not found any evidence of this either. The convict bank warrant states that he had £2 owing, and his ticket of leave doesn¹t really give anything away other than that he was in NSW. I think I know of the Government Gazettes you mentioned, one reference to a ticket of leave is definitely my John, whilst others (with the possible exception of a few Sydney Postal unclaimed letters) are related to the John Wishart who arrived on the Maitland. John was indeed a bigamist, and a bigamist on quite a grand scale as he had no less than six wives living at the same time, all in different locations (in London and Glasgow) and even having the nerve to marry two of the wives in the same church! It seems nobody cared much for him when he was transported as no claims for clemency were filed. I doubt any of the local libraries here will have Joan¹s microfiche, so I¹ll try the larger London ones. Thanks again for your advice, Scott ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Lesley Thank you for both of those replies. In regards to the cert. of freedom. I have an old ships indent, that was done for me years ago, showing a cert. of freedom number but when I check the web page I don't get anything for this fellow. James Cook "Lord Lynedock" 1838 Ships Indent show Cert. of Freedom #48/105 Any other suggestions for that??? Also I will check out all the other convicts on that site as well. Judith -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Lesley Uebel Sent: Friday, 25 July 2008 4:13 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Re Certificate of Freedom ... and in answer to the second question :) (missed it) The State Library of Tasmania may hold a copy of the Indents on microfiche and perhaps the Archives Office of Tasmania. Some large family history organisations could also hold a copy. I have copies of all the them but not necessarily all the information provided for each convict. Lesley Uebel mailto:[email protected] CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Judith Rowe Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 2:57 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [AUS-CON] Re Certificate of Freedom Hi Lesley This is Judith Rowe, you have helped me out on previous occasions before, and was wondering if you could assist me again now. I have a few convicts in the families of my husband and myself. Would you please advise where I could find a copy of the certificates of freedom and also is there any way of knowing if they were issued with a cert. of freedom.at all? Also is the library the only place to look up the Indents from ship arrivals? Thanking you Judith In Very cloudy, cold ST Helens in Tassie. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

... and in answer to the second question :) (missed it) The State Library of Tasmania may hold a copy of the Indents on microfiche and perhaps the Archives Office of Tasmania. Some large family history organisations could also hold a copy. I have copies of all the them but not necessarily all the information provided for each convict. Lesley Uebel mailto:[email protected] CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Judith Rowe Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 2:57 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [AUS-CON] Re Certificate of Freedom Hi Lesley This is Judith Rowe, you have helped me out on previous occasions before, and was wondering if you could assist me again now. I have a few convicts in the families of my husband and myself. Would you please advise where I could find a copy of the certificates of freedom and also is there any way of knowing if they were issued with a cert. of freedom.at all? Also is the library the only place to look up the Indents from ship arrivals? Thanking you Judith In Very cloudy, cold ST Helens in Tassie.

Hi Judith The State Records of NSW has listed most of those convicts to Port Jackson who received a Certificate of Freedom Web address is http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/staterecords/welcome_to_state_records_nsw_1556.asp Lesley Uebel mailto:[email protected] CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Judith Rowe Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 2:57 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [AUS-CON] Re Certificate of Freedom Hi Lesley This is Judith Rowe, you have helped me out on previous occasions before, and was wondering if you could assist me again now. I have a few convicts in the families of my husband and myself. Would you please advise where I could find a copy of the certificates of freedom and also is there any way of knowing if they were issued with a cert. of freedom.at all? Also is the library the only place to look up the Indents from ship arrivals? Thanking you Judith In Very cloudy, cold ST Helens in Tassie. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Lesley This is Judith Rowe, you have helped me out on previous occasions before, and was wondering if you could assist me again now. I have a few convicts in the families of my husband and myself. Would you please advise where I could find a copy of the certificates of freedom and also is there any way of knowing if they were issued with a cert. of freedom.at all? Also is the library the only place to look up the Indents from ship arrivals? Thanking you Judith In Very cloudy, cold ST Helens in Tassie.

Glenys, Depending on the year of arrival, here they are in 1838: http://bengal.liah.org/bengal1838.html Best, Scott

Hi Lesley, Thank you for your clear description as to the exact nature of ToL¹s and what exactly happened to them. So ŒFerocious John¹ (as one newspaper called him) would have folded his copy up and tucked it away for when he needed it. Almost exactly a year ago I¹d almost given up trying to find out what had happened to John, then the indexes were published on ancestry and a whole new world of research was opened up to me. From having no idea of my forebears life, to having enough information to pad out a small book in less than twelve months has been quite a journey, grim reading mostly, but utterly fascinating. Thanks again for your advice, Scott

Hi Scott You cannot obtain a copy of the actual TOL only the *Office* copy i.e. the Butt. Perhaps I could liken the TOLs to a cheque book.... you retain the Butt with the original being sent to the payee and sometimes the butt has not always been completed. There are very few NSW original TOLs in existence and they can go for high dollars when one is found. You have one interesting convict there ! Regards Lesley Uebel mailto:[email protected] CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Scott Alexander Wishart Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 7:07 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] John WISHART - Bengal Merchant 1838 Hi Lesley, Aha! Would it be sage to get hold of the actual ToL from the SAG website then? I¹ll also contact the State Records and ask their advice. Yes, the one female child remains a mystery as to her identity. As far as the wives go, I know the names of three, perhaps four. The first being my GGGG Grandmother who married John around 1815 in Glasgow and to date, bore him four known children. Essentially John wasn¹t a particularly nice fellow and deserted his first wife having treated her in a rather bad fashion ­ as reported in the London Times. He left her around 1832 and having been sent back to Glasgow, subsequently returning to London (where he¹d been living since 1829/30-ish) and going on a wedding spree. The female child you mentioned must have been born during this period, and is mentioned in newspaper reports of the trial from 1836/7 ­ but alas without a name. Obviously not one for being totally honest, I can only imagine that John kept quiet about his Scottish family for fear of digging himself into a deeper hole? Their was an attempt to track down my GGGG Grandmother and bring her down for the trial, however funds were lacking on the part of the sixth wife who brought him to court, and so it was left to another wife married in 1833 to prove the bigamy. Of all the children, only my GGG Grandfather (the eldest) named any of their children John. One of the sisters (born in the late 1820¹s) seemed especially unsure as to who her father was. Does that make sense? I have so much information for the period between 1831 and 1837 that I¹m still trying to make sense of it all! Best wishes, Scott ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Scott What you have is a copy of the butt of the TOL and not a copy of the original. The original would have been completed correctly although I have noticed on some that the district was not filled out by the scribe at the time. I don't know what that petition was for but it may have been his application for a ticket. This *may be* included on Joan's Index although she does state that she has not included all petitions. You could try contacting the State Records of NSW to see if they could follow it up for you as you are living in the UK. With all those wives, did John have more than one child as indicated on the Indent ? The reason I ask is that you stated you were his GGGG Grandson and share his surname..... but the Indent states he had one FEMALE child. Regards Lesley Uebel mailto:[email protected] CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Scott Alexander Wishart Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 9:44 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] John WISHART - Bengal Merchant 1838 Hi Lesley, I had another look at the Ticket of Leave but unfortunately the line that reads ³allowed to remain in the District of etc.² has been left blank. This came with the Certificate of Freedom I got from the NSW archives, so I¹m assuming this is the full Ticket of Leave? The number certainly matches up to that on the SAG website although halfway down the page somebody has written C44 which I¹m assuming refers to the Certificate of Freedom 44/264? On the side of the ToL, it says ³ Per the Gov. Minute on a petition by Wishart R W 42/9379. Would you know where 42/9379 would be? Luckily the CoF has a great deal of information regarding physical appearance, it appears that John may have been in a few fights over the years! Thanks again for your advice, I¹m thinking I might need to claim a convict on your website? Kind regards, Scott

Hi Lesley, Aha! Would it be sage to get hold of the actual ToL from the SAG website then? I¹ll also contact the State Records and ask their advice. Yes, the one female child remains a mystery as to her identity. As far as the wives go, I know the names of three, perhaps four. The first being my GGGG Grandmother who married John around 1815 in Glasgow and to date, bore him four known children. Essentially John wasn¹t a particularly nice fellow and deserted his first wife having treated her in a rather bad fashion ­ as reported in the London Times. He left her around 1832 and having been sent back to Glasgow, subsequently returning to London (where he¹d been living since 1829/30-ish) and going on a wedding spree. The female child you mentioned must have been born during this period, and is mentioned in newspaper reports of the trial from 1836/7 ­ but alas without a name. Obviously not one for being totally honest, I can only imagine that John kept quiet about his Scottish family for fear of digging himself into a deeper hole? Their was an attempt to track down my GGGG Grandmother and bring her down for the trial, however funds were lacking on the part of the sixth wife who brought him to court, and so it was left to another wife married in 1833 to prove the bigamy. Of all the children, only my GGG Grandfather (the eldest) named any of their children John. One of the sisters (born in the late 1820¹s) seemed especially unsure as to who her father was. Does that make sense? I have so much information for the period between 1831 and 1837 that I¹m still trying to make sense of it all! Best wishes, Scott

Please will you tell me what the convict bank warrants index is? I have two convicts I'd like to check there. Also how would one find out if anyone made a claim for clemency? Cheers Janine.

Hi A Ticket of Leave will provide you with the district he was living in at the time he received it - not just that he was living in NSW. *Sometimes* a ticket will also provide other information that may be useful Regards Lesley Uebel mailto:[email protected] CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Scott Alexander Wishart Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 7:39 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] John WISHART - Bengal Merchant 1838 Hi Lesley & Martin, Many thanks for your messages. Yes, I haven¹t found a death for John yet, I¹ve seen several certificates, but none as yet are my man. I¹ve also entertained the idea that he returned to the UK, but have not found any evidence of this either. The convict bank warrant states that he had £2 owing, and his ticket of leave doesn¹t really give anything away other than that he was in NSW. I think I know of the Government Gazettes you mentioned, one reference to a ticket of leave is definitely my John, whilst others (with the possible exception of a few Sydney Postal unclaimed letters) are related to the John Wishart who arrived on the Maitland. John was indeed a bigamist, and a bigamist on quite a grand scale as he had no less than six wives living at the same time, all in different locations (in London and Glasgow) and even having the nerve to marry two of the wives in the same church! It seems nobody cared much for him when he was transported as no claims for clemency were filed. I doubt any of the local libraries here will have Joan¹s microfiche, so I¹ll try the larger London ones. Thanks again for your advice, Scott

Hi Janine, Try: http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/index_to_convict_bank_accounts_1837-7 0_339.asp this is where I found my man. The petitions for clemency are detailed at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=347&j= 1#3 I don¹t know if you can see these anywhere outside of the National Archives on microfilm? The copies I saw were the original big dusty old volumes! Best wishes, Scott

Hi Lesley, I had another look at the Ticket of Leave but unfortunately the line that reads ³allowed to remain in the District of etc.² has been left blank. This came with the Certificate of Freedom I got from the NSW archives, so I¹m assuming this is the full Ticket of Leave? The number certainly matches up to that on the SAG website although halfway down the page somebody has written C44 which I¹m assuming refers to the Certificate of Freedom 44/264? On the side of the ToL, it says ³ Per the Gov. Minute on a petition by Wishart R W 42/9379. Would you know where 42/9379 would be? Luckily the CoF has a great deal of information regarding physical appearance, it appears that John may have been in a few fights over the years! Thanks again for your advice, I¹m thinking I might need to claim a convict on your website? Kind regards, Scott

"Scott Wishart" <[email protected]> writes: > > I've been researching my GGGG Grandfather John WISHART who was transported > aboard the Bengal Merchant in 1838, arriving in NSW in July of that year. > To date I've quite a bit of information about him up until that point, and > again in 1844 when he was granted a certificate of freedom, after which he > disappears completely from any further records. > State records have an entry for a John Wishart per Bengal Merchant in their convict bank warrants index, but I guess you saw that? Name: John Wishart Ship: Bengal Merchant Year: WarrantNo: 44/21 Condition: Free Reel: 596 Item: [4/4547] Remarks: -- Martin

Hi He did receive a Ticket of Leave so that will give provide you with his location at that time. He didn't apply for permission to marry...... not that it would have been approved anyway as he was transported for bigamy. There are many entries for John Wishart in the AGCI Vol 2 CS NSW Government Gazettes 1832 - 1863 and whilst a few of these entries may refer to him, I doubt if they all do. I take it that you have not found his death as yet ?? Joan's microfiche may provide more information, but you would have to check to see if it is available in any of the libraries in the UK. It is an Index only but provides the details required to obtain the full records from the State Records of NSW. Unfortunately many convict records no longer exist in NSW due to a fire and some just destroyed :( regards Lesley Uebel mailto:[email protected] CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of "Scott Wishart" Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 8:49 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [AUS-CON] John WISHART - Bengal Merchant 1838 Hello, I've been researching my GGGG Grandfather John WISHART who was transported aboard the Bengal Merchant in 1838, arriving in NSW in July of that year. To date I've quite a bit of information about him up until that point, and again in 1844 when he was granted a certificate of freedom, after which he disappears completely from any further records. I'm interested in finding out a little more about his time in Australia between 1838 and 1844, and wondered if Joan Reese's 'Colonial Secretary' indexes might provide any further clues as to his life, and if so, would anybody know where I might be able to view these here in the UK (I'm near London). Thanks in advance for any advice. Scott

Hi Lesley & Martin, Many thanks for your messages. Yes, I haven¹t found a death for John yet, I¹ve seen several certificates, but none as yet are my man. I¹ve also entertained the idea that he returned to the UK, but have not found any evidence of this either. The convict bank warrant states that he had £2 owing, and his ticket of leave doesn¹t really give anything away other than that he was in NSW. I think I know of the Government Gazettes you mentioned, one reference to a ticket of leave is definitely my John, whilst others (with the possible exception of a few Sydney Postal unclaimed letters) are related to the John Wishart who arrived on the Maitland. John was indeed a bigamist, and a bigamist on quite a grand scale as he had no less than six wives living at the same time, all in different locations (in London and Glasgow) and even having the nerve to marry two of the wives in the same church! It seems nobody cared much for him when he was transported as no claims for clemency were filed. I doubt any of the local libraries here will have Joan¹s microfiche, so I¹ll try the larger London ones. Thanks again for your advice, Scott

Hello, I've been researching my GGGG Grandfather John WISHART who was transported aboard the Bengal Merchant in 1838, arriving in NSW in July of that year. To date I've quite a bit of information about him up until that point, and again in 1844 when he was granted a certificate of freedom, after which he disappears completely from any further records. I'm interested in finding out a little more about his time in Australia between 1838 and 1844, and wondered if Joan Reese's 'Colonial Secretary' indexes might provide any further clues as to his life, and if so, would anybody know where I might be able to view these here in the UK (I'm near London). Thanks in advance for any advice. Scott

Hi Greg The Colonial Se. . Index does not specifically state that James Lynch per " Guildford" applied to marry, as the entry does not include a ship next to that entry.... although I do not think it may be him. You can check the Col. Sec. microfilms at many large libraries. I have found many errors in this Index, especially where permission to marry is concerned and from memory about 25% were in error in some way. The NSW BDMs confirm a marriage at that time between James and Mary or Margaret Laughlin or Loughlin per "John Bull" Yes, he did receive a TOL - but remember that the SAG TOL list does not include ALL tickets obtained. Again, you can obtain a copy of the TOL butts at many large libraries. regards Lesley Uebel mailto:[email protected] CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Greg Bugden Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 11:49 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [AUS-CON] Convict James Lynch Hello Listers I have found quite a bit about the above convict online. He came on the Guildford in 1818. The colonial Sec. Correspondence says he applied to marry in 1823. Can this be confirmed? Are there any details of a ticket of leave for him? I can't find anything at SAG though State Records shows a Cert. of Freedom for 1824. Thank you Greg