You guys are so much help - thank you so much - my convict ancestor does seem to be quite the problem child - although as was said before times were hard. It says on your indent Lesley that he could read and write - would this be unusual for a boy his age with so many it seems court appearances. He has listed on his marriage certificate that his parents names are Thomas and Fanny, although there is no known birth in Scotland of a John to parents with those names, could it be possible that as he came out at such a young age, that he "adopted" either other convicts or who was assigned to as parents and used their names? -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lesley Uebel Sent: Thursday, 4 September 2008 10:18 AM To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter: Trial details Hi Rhoda Perhaps the Indent is incorrect. In the "General Return of Convicts in NSW - 1837 ", John is listed as 19 years of age. As this Return is not a result of a 1837 Muster but a reconstruction of many records from the 1836 Census he may have been 14 when convicted and turned 15 before he arrived in this colony - the 5 may have been mistaken as a 6 and therefore recorded as 16 years of age on our records. I see from your message that his previous conviction in 1831 is for " theft, habit and repute" therefore not a first timer in the courts of Scotland - but on that occasion he was found "Not Guilty", so I guess that one would not be recorded as a crime. Having been sentenced again in March 1832 for " theft, habit and repute", obviously he had been convicted at some time prior to 1831 as you noted. Perhaps it was because of his age (prior to 1831) that this earlier crime was not recorded here. The Scottish convicts "appear" to have been given much harsher sentences - but when checking records I have found that usually they had been convicted previously. Young John was light-fingered - a bad habit, I hope transportation remedied. He didn't receive his Certificate of Freedom until 1848, 2 years after due in 1846...... so perhaps there is need for more research. regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of CandROverson Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 7:06 PM To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter: Trial details Hi Lesley The catalogue records in the National Archives for Scotand Database show that John McCarter was tried on 20 July 1831 at the High Court in Edinburgh for the crime of theft, habit and repute at Bristo Street, Edinburgh. The brief summary of the trial papers says that he had a previous conviction for theft. However on this occasion he was found 'Not Guilty'. He appeared again before the High Court on 12 March 1832 for the crime of theft, habit and repute at High Street, Edinburgh. He was found 'Guilty' and sentenced to 14 years transportation. The summary again notes that he had 1 previous conviction for theft, and that he was 14 years old. So in this case the indent was wrong about his previous convictions. Not as innocent as he appears! Times were hard and he was just a wee boy. Rhoda ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Lesley, Kim The NAS gives an alternate name for John's father i.e John. I suppose that could be a (19th century) clerical error. Kim, this may not be your John. There are quite a few 'McCarters' in the 1841 Scottish Census, and some in Dundee. Perhaps your John went over to Australia as a free man. His baptism details may well not have been recorded in the Church of Scotland registers and would not appear on Scotlands People. His parents may have belonged to one of the secessionist Churches. In 1696, a statute was introduced in Scotland that required landowners of each parish to appoint a schoolmaster to teach children to read and write. The schoolmaster was paid a small fixed salary but also depended on fees to supplement his income. The Kirk Session paid the fees of poor children. The Church of Scotland played a significant role in this, being reponsible for inspecting schools. No funding came from Government sources and schooling wasn't compulsory and its success depended on the enthusiasm of local landowners and church ministers. It would also depend on the enthusiasm of the parents. (Source: Education and the Scottish People. R.D Anderson, Oxford University, 1995.) I have 19th century ancestors from Nairn in the North East of Scotland, who were unable to sign their marriage certificates and had to make their mark with an X - mainly fisherfolk who probably had something better to do than learn to read and write! But nevertheless, the opportunity was there for those who wanted it. Regards Rhoda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lesley Uebel" <ckennedy@bigpond.net.au> To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 8:18 AM Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter: Trial details > Hi Kim > > > The NAS does state:- > > John McCarter, alias McArthur, son of Hugh McCarter, joiner, Age: 13, > twiner, > Address: Back of Fountain Well, Edinburgh, with father, Origin: Born in > Edinburgh > > > .... so I don't know where the names of Thomas and Fanny come in. > > Although the Indent states could read or write it does not give us any > indication of the level of proficiently > > Regards > > Lesley Uebel > mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au > CLAIM A CONVICT > http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Kim and Daz > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:33 PM > To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter: Trial details > > > You guys are so much help - thank you so much - my convict ancestor does > seem to be quite the problem child - although as was said before times > were > hard. It says on your indent Lesley that he could read and write - would > this be unusual for a boy his age with so many it seems court appearances. > He has listed on his marriage certificate that his parents names are > Thomas > and Fanny, although there is no known birth in Scotland of a John to > parents > with those names, could it be possible that as he came out at such a young > age, that he "adopted" either other convicts or who was assigned to as > parents and used their names? > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Rhoda Perhaps the Indent is incorrect. In the "General Return of Convicts in NSW - 1837 ", John is listed as 19 years of age. As this Return is not a result of a 1837 Muster but a reconstruction of many records from the 1836 Census he may have been 14 when convicted and turned 15 before he arrived in this colony - the 5 may have been mistaken as a 6 and therefore recorded as 16 years of age on our records. I see from your message that his previous conviction in 1831 is for " theft, habit and repute" therefore not a first timer in the courts of Scotland - but on that occasion he was found "Not Guilty", so I guess that one would not be recorded as a crime. Having been sentenced again in March 1832 for " theft, habit and repute", obviously he had been convicted at some time prior to 1831 as you noted. Perhaps it was because of his age (prior to 1831) that this earlier crime was not recorded here. The Scottish convicts "appear" to have been given much harsher sentences - but when checking records I have found that usually they had been convicted previously. Young John was light-fingered - a bad habit, I hope transportation remedied. He didn't receive his Certificate of Freedom until 1848, 2 years after due in 1846...... so perhaps there is need for more research. regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of CandROverson Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 7:06 PM To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter: Trial details Hi Lesley The catalogue records in the National Archives for Scotand Database show that John McCarter was tried on 20 July 1831 at the High Court in Edinburgh for the crime of theft, habit and repute at Bristo Street, Edinburgh. The brief summary of the trial papers says that he had a previous conviction for theft. However on this occasion he was found 'Not Guilty'. He appeared again before the High Court on 12 March 1832 for the crime of theft, habit and repute at High Street, Edinburgh. He was found 'Guilty' and sentenced to 14 years transportation. The summary again notes that he had 1 previous conviction for theft, and that he was 14 years old. So in this case the indent was wrong about his previous convictions. Not as innocent as he appears! Times were hard and he was just a wee boy. Rhoda

Hi Listers - can anyone help! I have several times sent emails to the NAS site with a question but all get back is that voluminous electronic all-purpose message which does NOT answer my question. In the Crown Office precognition, Ref:AD14/27/157 Bernard Hughes and Ann Hughes (his wife) are named along with a John Reid (18 yrs) and Robert Gallacher (17 yrs) as being the accused of the crime of theft. Both the Hughes were eventually transported. I do not wish to go to the expense of purchasing the records if this is all the information contained in them i.e. what is summed up on the "single record details" page? Can anyone tell me if there is more detail available in records such as these if one actually orders and purchases them. It's just a GENERAL question about what one gets when one purchases the records. That electronic message I keep getting does not answer this specific question. Kerri

Hi I don't know what area you are in Victoria Knoxfield vac you can use Ancestry com Free check your local library out Knoxfield is currently closed for renovations till oct worth a try at you local library got to a later day saints church they will teach what to do best of luck Jessie Ps I am quite close to Knox city foot of the Dandenong's ----- Original Message ----- From: "joy mcguire" <joy.mcguire@optusnet.com.au> To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 6:10 PM Subject: [AUS-CON] Tutorial!! > Hello again! And in need of advice. > > > > Ancestry.com a subject of informative discussion of late .... as a > newcomer > sites mentioned at times are bewildering on how to access them- > > Carol your mail suggested I access Worldconnect site on Ancestry.com ---- > I've tried without success ----to work out how to do so ... > > > > Carol's response to my enquiry gave me Luke Ralphs wife's maiden name --- > how did you find that? Her maiden name I mean .... I've searched the > Pioneer > Register found her arrival 1801 - General Musters of 1805/06 and 1811 - > her > death certificate of 1813 none showed her maiden name --- so am I looking > in > the wrong place? > > > > Also is it " a done thing" to e-mail a contributor without going via > rootsweb site. > > > > Cheers Joy > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Joy, This is the URL for Worldconnect. As far as I am aware it has always been a free site on Ancestry and is searchable by anyone. http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/ A lady has researched the Ralph family and put the information on Worldconnect. The site gives her name and email address. She has the following comment for Mary Mary arrived in the Colony free with 3 legitimate sons on the Convict ship "Minorca". Source General Muster 1805-06 I send private emails when they contain names and addresses or sensitive information that I think is better not to put on a list for all the world to see. This is a personal choice, no hard and fast rules. Cheers, Carol

Thank you so much Lesley, you've made my day! -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lesley Uebel Sent: Wednesday, 3 September 2008 11:56 AM To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter Hi Kim, The indent for the Hercules of 1832 states the following Name: John McCarter alias McArthur Age: 16 Education: Reads and writes Religion: Protestant Marital Status: Single Native Place: Edinburgh Trade: Turner's boy Crime: Stealing silk handkerchief Tried: Edinburgh Court of Justiciary 12 march 1832 Sentence: 14 years Previous convictions: None Height: 4' 10 1/2" etc Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Kim and Daz Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 9:34 PM To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter I have the certificate and "bank book" copies for that John as at first I too thought that was him. I understand that there were 10 year old convicts and that dates can be confused or birth dates lied about - but I really don't see how a 10 year old could pass for a 20 something year old as was the John and the Hercules and the clyde in the same year and again I am also assuming the birth year I have is correct. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello again! And in need of advice. Ancestry.com a subject of informative discussion of late .... as a newcomer sites mentioned at times are bewildering on how to access them- Carol your mail suggested I access Worldconnect site on Ancestry.com ---- I've tried without success ----to work out how to do so ... Carol's response to my enquiry gave me Luke Ralphs wife's maiden name --- how did you find that? Her maiden name I mean .... I've searched the Pioneer Register found her arrival 1801 - General Musters of 1805/06 and 1811 - her death certificate of 1813 none showed her maiden name --- so am I looking in the wrong place? Also is it " a done thing" to e-mail a contributor without going via rootsweb site. Cheers Joy

many thanks Jan -------Original Message------- From: Jan Daly Date: 3/09/2008 7:52:15 AM To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Photoe of convict ship Hercules Max I have found a web-site that has pictures of an HMS Hercules in 1853. http://www.theshipslist.com/pictures/hercules.htm I'm not sure if it is the same ship as you are looking for but it was used to carry emigrants. Regards Jan Daly -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Max Bancroft Sent: 02 September 2008 16:41 To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Photoe of convict ship Hercules Hi Carol, I thought may be photoes of paintings of the ships somewhere. many thanks Max -------Original Message------- From: Carol Wood Date: 2/09/2008 4:31:08 PM To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Photoe of convict ship Hercules Hi Max, Not many photos of convict ships as most were well before photography. The Mitchell Library has a data base of all ships' pictures, mostly paintings, but not many convict ships amongst them. Carol ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message .

Seeking information on convict Henry Jackson arriving Sydney on Countess of Harcourt 1824. Married Rachel Atkinson

Hi Listers, Thank you to all the Listers who responded to my post. It does seem that Ancestry, which has such great potential, can do much to improve it's game. >From 3 attempts I have had at complaining to Ancestry I received 2 brush offs and the email address below which was stated as where I should send my complaint. I HAVE! Cheers Peter customersolutions@tgn.com

Hi Kim, The indent for the Hercules of 1832 states the following Name: John McCarter alias McArthur Age: 16 Education: Reads and writes Religion: Protestant Marital Status: Single Native Place: Edinburgh Trade: Turner's boy Crime: Stealing silk handkerchief Tried: Edinburgh Court of Justiciary 12 march 1832 Sentence: 14 years Previous convictions: None Height: 4' 10 1/2" etc Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Kim and Daz Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 9:34 PM To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter I have the certificate and "bank book" copies for that John as at first I too thought that was him. I understand that there were 10 year old convicts and that dates can be confused or birth dates lied about - but I really don't see how a 10 year old could pass for a 20 something year old as was the John and the Hercules and the clyde in the same year and again I am also assuming the birth year I have is correct.

Hi Rhoda Can you tell me if there is a record on 'Scotlands People' for Mary Anne Campbell b: 8.6.1818 in Glasgow to Hugh & Mary? Hugh b: abt 1776 in Campbelltown, Argyll & Mary Graham b: abt 17?? & married abt 1800-1805. I know this is off topic for this site but couldn't resist the chance to follow through on the Scotland string. Hope you can help Appreciate all input Bev in Brissie

Just watching this conversation and have to say, Kim, it's not "corny" at all. It IS cool to see this stuff and feel "connected" to those in our past. I freely confess to having a good cry recently when I "found" my 3x great grandmother had arrived here as a little girl with her convict Mother (my 4x great grandmother) only to be snatched away and put in an orphanage upon arrival in the colony. It was a very moving experience. I am so relieved to find that my relatives at least made it here alive. I might be a big sook but I couldn't bear the thought of them being tossed overboard to feed the sharks! When we start to take all this stuff for granted and stop finding it "cool" it's time to give it away. I reckon you're cool for sharing that thought with us all. "Onya" girl Kerri -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kim and Daz Sent: Tuesday, 2 September 2008 9:37 PM To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter Thank you so much Jan - I truly appreciate the time and effort everyone has put in to helping the novice (me!) You guys are great and should be so proud of the help you give everyone. I have ordered both certificates so I will let you know what happens. I have my grandparents marriage certificate and if has my great grandmothers plus both my grandparents signatures on it - I know its corny - but its cool to see their writing. Again thanks so much for the help Kim -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Neil & Jan Hearn Sent: Tuesday, 2 September 2008 6:16 PM To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter Hello again Kim, The death certificate will give the names of his parents as supplied by the Informant at the time . The marriage cert should also have his father's name and occupation...as given by John himself. Some marriage certificates record both parents of both parties. The witnesses to the wedding are often of interest as well. Buying the two will allow you to either verify the information or confuse you further but at least you'll know that it relates to your ancestor. I'm sure just about everyone told a few fibs, never thinking genealogy would become the all consuming pastime it has. Happy hunting, Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim and Daz" <kim_daz@bigpond.net.au> To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter > Ok me again - sorry if I am becoming a royal pain! > > John's death certificate has his parents as Thomas and Fanny on the BDM > site. I ordered the certificate a couple of weeks ago, but am yet to > receive it. Just while I think of it - would his death certificate be > sufficient and have all info or is there more to be found if I ordered his > marriage certificate to Isabella also? John then named a daughter Francis > and his son John named one of his sons Thomas, which then seemed to tie in > with his parents name (I was so glad that we started to get away from > calling everyone John!) My grandmother long ago wrote some things out > about > the family and although there are some discrepancies in there (such as she > changed the DOB for 1 of her kids who was born out of wedlock and she > hasn't > included the death of another born out of wedlock, but I think that this > was > more because it was frowned upon greatly in her time, rather than her > trying > to deceive anyone). She notes in there that we came from Scotland and I > am > a little emabarrassed to say that the year and place I came upon when I > was > first starting my research and was (and still am) a novice. I started a > tree on Ancestory and found a John whos parents are Thomas and Fanny and > the > information listed was that John was born in 1832 from Dundee. I did send > this person a message asking if this could be my John and that I had a lot > of information from recent times that I could help with, but I never > received a reply. Luckily I have listed where I got all my information > from, but again, wrongly I shouldn't have assumed this to be correct. > > I really have no idea what religion he was and the McCarter's today are > all > over the place with their religions. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of CandROverson > Sent: Monday, 1 September 2008 8:11 PM > To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter > > Kim > > Where did you get his birth and parent details from? There is no record > on > Scotlands People of the birth of a John McCarter (or McArthur) to Thomas > and > > Fanny (or Frances) - in Dundee or elsewhere in Scotland between 1800 and > 1854. This doesn't necessarily mean that your details are wrong. The > pre-1855 birth and marriage records are sourced from the parish records of > the (established) Church of Scotland. Pre-1855 Roman Catholic and other > Church records are not on the Scotland's People site - yet. They are > promised. > > I couldn't find a record for a marriage for Thomas and Fanny (Frances) > either. "Fanny" is not a very Scottish usage. It tends to appear more in > England. Numbers of McCarters in the 1841 Scotland Census were born in > Ireland. So it could be that your Thomas and Fanny were Irish born, and > married in Ireland? Was your John a Catholic? > > Regards > > Rhoda > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kim and Daz" <kim_daz@bigpond.net.au> > To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 5:37 AM > Subject: [AUS-CON] McCarter > > >>I am so much at a loss - and thank you so much Max for trying your best to >> help me. I am trying in vain to do my family tree, but there just seems >> to >> be people who existed, but are nowhere to be found anywhere as far as >> birth/marriage/death records are concerned. >> >> I have no concrete information, but was always told by my uncles (who are >> sadly now all deceased) that we are definitely convicts and they went so >> far >> as to tell me that it was for stealing bread. I have traced back to a >> John >> McCarter who was born in Dundee Scotland in 1822 but I cant find him >> anywhere as a convict or really any information about him. There is a >> John >> McCarter who was a convict, but he arrived in about 1832 and I know there >> is >> sometimes a query on ages, but that would make my John 10 years old and I >> doubt he could have passed for someone in their 20's. His parents were >> Thomas and Fanny and I have no information on them or whether there were >> other children. "My" John married Isabella Hicks on 25th June, 1859, she >> was born in 1839, but that is the extent of the information I have for >> her, >> other than their children were John born in 1861 and Fanny in 1859. >> >> There does seem to be some info on the Scotlands People website, but I >> cant >> view it unless I pay for it and just at the moment I cant afford to pay >> for >> something that might not even be relevant. >> >> If anyone could help with any info and how these people could just >> disappear >> without death or burial notices, or how John got to Australia I would so >> much appreciate it. >> >> Cheers >> Kim >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Lesley The catalogue records in the National Archives for Scotand Database show that John McCarter was tried on 20 July 1831 at the High Court in Edinburgh for the crime of theft, habit and repute at Bristo Street, Edinburgh. The brief summary of the trial papers says that he had a previous conviction for theft. However on this occasion he was found 'Not Guilty'. He appeared again before the High Court on 12 March 1832 for the crime of theft, habit and repute at High Street, Edinburgh. He was found 'Guilty' and sentenced to 14 years transportation. The summary again notes that he had 1 previous conviction for theft, and that he was 14 years old. So in this case the indent was wrong about his previous convictions. Not as innocent as he appears! Times were hard and he was just a wee boy. Rhoda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lesley Uebel" <ckennedy@bigpond.net.au> To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:56 AM Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter > Hi Kim, > > > The indent for the Hercules of 1832 states the following > > Name: John McCarter alias McArthur > Age: 16 > Education: Reads and writes > Religion: Protestant > Marital Status: Single > Native Place: Edinburgh > Trade: Turner's boy > Crime: Stealing silk handkerchief > Tried: Edinburgh Court of Justiciary 12 march 1832 > Sentence: 14 years > Previous convictions: None > Height: 4' 10 1/2" > > etc > > > Lesley Uebel > mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au > CLAIM A CONVICT > http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Kim and Daz > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 9:34 PM > To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter > > > I have the certificate and "bank book" copies for that John as at first I > too thought that was him. I understand that there were 10 year old > convicts > and that dates can be confused or birth dates lied about - but I really > don't see how a 10 year old could pass for a 20 something year old as was > the John and the Hercules and the clyde in the same year and again I am > also > assuming the birth year I have is correct. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thank you so much Jan - I truly appreciate the time and effort everyone has put in to helping the novice (me!) You guys are great and should be so proud of the help you give everyone. I have ordered both certificates so I will let you know what happens. I have my grandparents marriage certificate and if has my great grandmothers plus both my grandparents signatures on it - I know its corny - but its cool to see their writing. Again thanks so much for the help Kim -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Neil & Jan Hearn Sent: Tuesday, 2 September 2008 6:16 PM To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter Hello again Kim, The death certificate will give the names of his parents as supplied by the Informant at the time . The marriage cert should also have his father's name and occupation...as given by John himself. Some marriage certificates record both parents of both parties. The witnesses to the wedding are often of interest as well. Buying the two will allow you to either verify the information or confuse you further but at least you'll know that it relates to your ancestor. I'm sure just about everyone told a few fibs, never thinking genealogy would become the all consuming pastime it has. Happy hunting, Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim and Daz" <kim_daz@bigpond.net.au> To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter > Ok me again - sorry if I am becoming a royal pain! > > John's death certificate has his parents as Thomas and Fanny on the BDM > site. I ordered the certificate a couple of weeks ago, but am yet to > receive it. Just while I think of it - would his death certificate be > sufficient and have all info or is there more to be found if I ordered his > marriage certificate to Isabella also? John then named a daughter Francis > and his son John named one of his sons Thomas, which then seemed to tie in > with his parents name (I was so glad that we started to get away from > calling everyone John!) My grandmother long ago wrote some things out > about > the family and although there are some discrepancies in there (such as she > changed the DOB for 1 of her kids who was born out of wedlock and she > hasn't > included the death of another born out of wedlock, but I think that this > was > more because it was frowned upon greatly in her time, rather than her > trying > to deceive anyone). She notes in there that we came from Scotland and I > am > a little emabarrassed to say that the year and place I came upon when I > was > first starting my research and was (and still am) a novice. I started a > tree on Ancestory and found a John whos parents are Thomas and Fanny and > the > information listed was that John was born in 1832 from Dundee. I did send > this person a message asking if this could be my John and that I had a lot > of information from recent times that I could help with, but I never > received a reply. Luckily I have listed where I got all my information > from, but again, wrongly I shouldn't have assumed this to be correct. > > I really have no idea what religion he was and the McCarter's today are > all > over the place with their religions. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of CandROverson > Sent: Monday, 1 September 2008 8:11 PM > To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter > > Kim > > Where did you get his birth and parent details from? There is no record > on > Scotlands People of the birth of a John McCarter (or McArthur) to Thomas > and > > Fanny (or Frances) - in Dundee or elsewhere in Scotland between 1800 and > 1854. This doesn't necessarily mean that your details are wrong. The > pre-1855 birth and marriage records are sourced from the parish records of > the (established) Church of Scotland. Pre-1855 Roman Catholic and other > Church records are not on the Scotland's People site - yet. They are > promised. > > I couldn't find a record for a marriage for Thomas and Fanny (Frances) > either. "Fanny" is not a very Scottish usage. It tends to appear more in > England. Numbers of McCarters in the 1841 Scotland Census were born in > Ireland. So it could be that your Thomas and Fanny were Irish born, and > married in Ireland? Was your John a Catholic? > > Regards > > Rhoda > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kim and Daz" <kim_daz@bigpond.net.au> > To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 5:37 AM > Subject: [AUS-CON] McCarter > > >>I am so much at a loss - and thank you so much Max for trying your best to >> help me. I am trying in vain to do my family tree, but there just seems >> to >> be people who existed, but are nowhere to be found anywhere as far as >> birth/marriage/death records are concerned. >> >> I have no concrete information, but was always told by my uncles (who are >> sadly now all deceased) that we are definitely convicts and they went so >> far >> as to tell me that it was for stealing bread. I have traced back to a >> John >> McCarter who was born in Dundee Scotland in 1822 but I cant find him >> anywhere as a convict or really any information about him. There is a >> John >> McCarter who was a convict, but he arrived in about 1832 and I know there >> is >> sometimes a query on ages, but that would make my John 10 years old and I >> doubt he could have passed for someone in their 20's. His parents were >> Thomas and Fanny and I have no information on them or whether there were >> other children. "My" John married Isabella Hicks on 25th June, 1859, she >> was born in 1839, but that is the extent of the information I have for >> her, >> other than their children were John born in 1861 and Fanny in 1859. >> >> There does seem to be some info on the Scotlands People website, but I >> cant >> view it unless I pay for it and just at the moment I cant afford to pay >> for >> something that might not even be relevant. >> >> If anyone could help with any info and how these people could just >> disappear >> without death or burial notices, or how John got to Australia I would so >> much appreciate it. >> >> Cheers >> Kim >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have the certificate and "bank book" copies for that John as at first I too thought that was him. I understand that there were 10 year old convicts and that dates can be confused or birth dates lied about - but I really don't see how a 10 year old could pass for a 20 something year old as was the John and the Hercules and the clyde in the same year and again I am also assuming the birth year I have is correct. -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Neil & Jan Hearn Sent: Monday, 1 September 2008 5:53 PM To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter NSW State Records lists John McCarter, alias McArthur, who received a Certificate of Freedom on 13-05-1848. He arrived in NSW on Hercules in 1832. I'm not sure why you think this can't be him. There were other 10 year old convicts, assuming the birthyear you have is correct. A photocopy of this can be purchased online. Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim and Daz" <kim_daz@bigpond.net.au> To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 2:37 PM Subject: [AUS-CON] McCarter >I am so much at a loss - and thank you so much Max for trying your best to > help me. I am trying in vain to do my family tree, but there just seems > to > be people who existed, but are nowhere to be found anywhere as far as > birth/marriage/death records are concerned. > > I have no concrete information, but was always told by my uncles (who are > sadly now all deceased) that we are definitely convicts and they went so > far > as to tell me that it was for stealing bread. I have traced back to a > John > McCarter who was born in Dundee Scotland in 1822 but I cant find him > anywhere as a convict or really any information about him. There is a > John > McCarter who was a convict, but he arrived in about 1832 and I know there > is > sometimes a query on ages, but that would make my John 10 years old and I > doubt he could have passed for someone in their 20's. His parents were > Thomas and Fanny and I have no information on them or whether there were > other children. "My" John married Isabella Hicks on 25th June, 1859, she > was born in 1839, but that is the extent of the information I have for > her, > other than their children were John born in 1861 and Fanny in 1859. > > There does seem to be some info on the Scotlands People website, but I > cant > view it unless I pay for it and just at the moment I cant afford to pay > for > something that might not even be relevant. > > If anyone could help with any info and how these people could just > disappear > without death or burial notices, or how John got to Australia I would so > much appreciate it. > > Cheers > Kim > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Bingo, many thanks to all -------Original Message------- From: Jessie Dee Date: 2/09/2008 5:58:43 PM To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Photoe of convict ship Hercules try Melbourne state library may help you Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Max Bancroft" <maxwell1@bigpond.net.au> To: <AUS-CONVICTS@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 3:29 PM Subject: [AUS-CON] Photoe of convict ship Hercules > Hello List, I would be interested in obtaining a copy of a photoe of the > convict ship Hercules and have googled it relentlessly until until I > finally gave up. Can anyone suggest a site where it is depicted? > regards > Max > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Max I have found a web-site that has pictures of an HMS Hercules in 1853. http://www.theshipslist.com/pictures/hercules.htm I'm not sure if it is the same ship as you are looking for but it was used to carry emigrants. Regards Jan Daly -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Max Bancroft Sent: 02 September 2008 16:41 To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Photoe of convict ship Hercules Hi Carol, I thought may be photoes of paintings of the ships somewhere. many thanks Max -------Original Message------- From: Carol Wood Date: 2/09/2008 4:31:08 PM To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Photoe of convict ship Hercules Hi Max, Not many photos of convict ships as most were well before photography. The Mitchell Library has a data base of all ships' pictures, mostly paintings, but not many convict ships amongst them. Carol ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello again Kim, The death certificate will give the names of his parents as supplied by the Informant at the time . The marriage cert should also have his father's name and occupation...as given by John himself. Some marriage certificates record both parents of both parties. The witnesses to the wedding are often of interest as well. Buying the two will allow you to either verify the information or confuse you further but at least you'll know that it relates to your ancestor. I'm sure just about everyone told a few fibs, never thinking genealogy would become the all consuming pastime it has. Happy hunting, Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim and Daz" <kim_daz@bigpond.net.au> To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter > Ok me again - sorry if I am becoming a royal pain! > > John's death certificate has his parents as Thomas and Fanny on the BDM > site. I ordered the certificate a couple of weeks ago, but am yet to > receive it. Just while I think of it - would his death certificate be > sufficient and have all info or is there more to be found if I ordered his > marriage certificate to Isabella also? John then named a daughter Francis > and his son John named one of his sons Thomas, which then seemed to tie in > with his parents name (I was so glad that we started to get away from > calling everyone John!) My grandmother long ago wrote some things out > about > the family and although there are some discrepancies in there (such as she > changed the DOB for 1 of her kids who was born out of wedlock and she > hasn't > included the death of another born out of wedlock, but I think that this > was > more because it was frowned upon greatly in her time, rather than her > trying > to deceive anyone). She notes in there that we came from Scotland and I > am > a little emabarrassed to say that the year and place I came upon when I > was > first starting my research and was (and still am) a novice. I started a > tree on Ancestory and found a John whos parents are Thomas and Fanny and > the > information listed was that John was born in 1832 from Dundee. I did send > this person a message asking if this could be my John and that I had a lot > of information from recent times that I could help with, but I never > received a reply. Luckily I have listed where I got all my information > from, but again, wrongly I shouldn't have assumed this to be correct. > > I really have no idea what religion he was and the McCarter's today are > all > over the place with their religions. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of CandROverson > Sent: Monday, 1 September 2008 8:11 PM > To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] McCarter > > Kim > > Where did you get his birth and parent details from? There is no record > on > Scotlands People of the birth of a John McCarter (or McArthur) to Thomas > and > > Fanny (or Frances) - in Dundee or elsewhere in Scotland between 1800 and > 1854. This doesn't necessarily mean that your details are wrong. The > pre-1855 birth and marriage records are sourced from the parish records of > the (established) Church of Scotland. Pre-1855 Roman Catholic and other > Church records are not on the Scotland's People site - yet. They are > promised. > > I couldn't find a record for a marriage for Thomas and Fanny (Frances) > either. "Fanny" is not a very Scottish usage. It tends to appear more in > England. Numbers of McCarters in the 1841 Scotland Census were born in > Ireland. So it could be that your Thomas and Fanny were Irish born, and > married in Ireland? Was your John a Catholic? > > Regards > > Rhoda > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kim and Daz" <kim_daz@bigpond.net.au> > To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 5:37 AM > Subject: [AUS-CON] McCarter > > >>I am so much at a loss - and thank you so much Max for trying your best to >> help me. I am trying in vain to do my family tree, but there just seems >> to >> be people who existed, but are nowhere to be found anywhere as far as >> birth/marriage/death records are concerned. >> >> I have no concrete information, but was always told by my uncles (who are >> sadly now all deceased) that we are definitely convicts and they went so >> far >> as to tell me that it was for stealing bread. I have traced back to a >> John >> McCarter who was born in Dundee Scotland in 1822 but I cant find him >> anywhere as a convict or really any information about him. There is a >> John >> McCarter who was a convict, but he arrived in about 1832 and I know there >> is >> sometimes a query on ages, but that would make my John 10 years old and I >> doubt he could have passed for someone in their 20's. His parents were >> Thomas and Fanny and I have no information on them or whether there were >> other children. "My" John married Isabella Hicks on 25th June, 1859, she >> was born in 1839, but that is the extent of the information I have for >> her, >> other than their children were John born in 1861 and Fanny in 1859. >> >> There does seem to be some info on the Scotlands People website, but I >> cant >> view it unless I pay for it and just at the moment I cant afford to pay >> for >> something that might not even be relevant. >> >> If anyone could help with any info and how these people could just >> disappear >> without death or burial notices, or how John got to Australia I would so >> much appreciate it. >> >> Cheers >> Kim >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >