Dear listers: I am trying to find out more information about WILLIAM BATES, of Stoneleigh, near Coventry, convicted March session 1833 in Warwick for theft and sentenced to Life Transportation. He was only 19 at time of theft. His brother, Daniel Bates , also convicted but for 7 years transport, cannot find him. On QLD digital project, there is one William Bates left on ship JOHN BARRY April 1834 arrived VDL. also convicted Warwick Session 12 March 1833...likely him. I would welcome some help re finding any possible Conditional Pardon? If his term was "life" then I assume he had to stay around AUS? any ideas on finding him in later years? where might he have gone? thanks, Liz of BC Canada

(Sent this to another list but it didn't post so trying here) Trying to track down the arrival/origins of Michael WOOLAGHAN/HOULAGHAN who, along with Alexander SUTTER/SUITER, was erroneously sentenced to death for murdering Rowland EDWARDS in 1814. There is a reference in the trial to SUTTER arriving as ships crew so i don't think i'll have any luck with him. After sentencing, the correct culprits were identified (partly through a confession on the gallows by Donovan), a pardon was sought and given in 1816. I believe that Michael WOOLAGHAN/HOULAGHAN is the same sentenced to hang in 1803 for disappearing with a group of convicts from Castle Hill and ransacking a home (see Gazette V1, N3, 1803), but as with some others I assume he was pardoned - couldn't find an account of his hanging. I've looked through state records, ancestry records etc - I've not been able to find his arrival, though I believe Michael was granted land in 1818 after his pardon. It seems a second 'WOLAGHAN, Michael' arrived in 1817 on the "Almorah" (Colonial Sec records). I haven't had luck tracking their deaths etc., but working our where they came from would be useful. Any hints appreciated. cheers matt -- Matthew D. Hall Washington, DC cell: +1 410 733 9444 home: +1 202 370 6431

Hi all I was doing some browsing on the NLA site and found the following listing in "The Sydney Gazette and NSW Advertiser" of 14 April 1829. It lists the following people as obtaining certificates of freedom in the previous week: Name Ship Edwd, Jeremiah Simmons Asia 2 Cody, Daniel, Brampton Maher, Thomas, a/a Horgan, Francis, a/a Walsh, James, a/a Geary or Grany, Richard, a/a McGrath, Denis, a/a Donovan, Daniel, Castle Forbes (2) Buckin?, Thomas a/a Kenny or Maher, Patrick Countess of Harcourt Grace, Patrick a/a Ryan or Harrington, Thos. a/a Kenny, James a/a Crowley, John a/a Driscoll, Timothy a/a Smith, Thomas a/a Donergan, James a/a Sullivan, Edward a/a Jones, Robert a/a Cooney, William a/a Sweeny, Daniel a/a Farrelly, John a/a Connor, John a/a Shea, John a/a Other ships mentioned, which I don't have time to transcribe tonight, but which might be of interest if you have a relative who arrived on them are: Earl St. Vincent, Eliza 2, Elizabeth 3, Guildford 2, Henry 1, Isabella 3, Mangles or Margles, Minerva 3, Minerva 4, Ocean 1, Princess Royal, Prince regent 2 and 3, Recovery 2, Woodman. The article can be found on the NLA newspaper digitisation site, at: http://ndpbeta.nla.gov.au Hope this is useful. Anne

Barbara I used work with an Arnp Eglitis in Sydney. I went to a few Baltic Balls with him. Phil -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Barbara Eglitis Sent: Wednesday, 29 October 2008 2:45 PM To: AUS-CONVICTS@rootsweb.com Subject: [AUS-CON] Fw: Interesting Book Hello Listers, I have just finished reading a very interesting book which "chronicles extraordinary suffering and resilience" of the convicts who were sent to Sarah Island, Macquarie Harbour (Tasmania) between 1822 and 1834. It is a good read, full of incredible true stories. The book is called "Closing Hell's Gates - the death of a convict station" written by Hamish Maxwell-Stewart. Just thought you might be interested to know just what some of "our" convicts went through. It is horrifying. Regards, Barbara. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Listers, I have just finished reading a very interesting book which "chronicles extraordinary suffering and resilience" of the convicts who were sent to Sarah Island, Macquarie Harbour (Tasmania) between 1822 and 1834. It is a good read, full of incredible true stories. The book is called "Closing Hell's Gates - the death of a convict station" written by Hamish Maxwell-Stewart. Just thought you might be interested to know just what some of "our" convicts went through. It is horrifying. Regards, Barbara.

Hello Listers Anyone connected or researching these two convicts? Would love to learn more - found a lot on the net. Kind regards Joanne

The Waterhouse family of Horse Racing fame claim decent fromFirst Fleeter Lt Henry Waterhouse ( Sirius 1788). Does anyone know the details of this claim? Henry was 17 years old in 1788. He did return to the colony several times but I can find no record of any liason. Apparently he never married. Inquiring minds need to know! regards Ray

> > Matt, I would think the reason they they recorded outwardly obvious > features... would be if they were to escape... their outward more obvious > features.. (rather than something that could be easily hidden by a shirt) It > would seem easier to locate them that way... there were no drawings or > photographs in those days.. though I personally wish they had of... would > make life alot more interesting... I am by no means an expert on the > subject... but of the various records of convicts in Moreton Bay that I have > read... from memory there were only a mere few with any distiguishing marks > registered and they were usually because they were facial marks.. I am not > aware of any particular military handbook so to speak as to what they were > to record.. and in most cases one would think that the distiguishing > features would have been sent with their details from England or > whereever... I also expect that there would have been many with (whipping > marks) as distiguishing features as you have read with some of the other > responses.. it was a particularly harsh time. I know that there is a book > with regard to prison management which is post convict... but it was still a > copy of the british one.. maybe it might say something in there..about what > they were to record... I shall look into it for you.. > Regards Sue

There is a series of books/novels written by Diana Gabaldon based firstly in the highlands of Scotland then America in the 1700s which might be of interest to Phil firstly as one of her characters is names Ian Murray & it also involves floggings & all those nasties that were part of their lives in those days. I don't know how historically accurate she was but they are a good read if nothing else. They're hard to put down but very long. Cheers. Anne from Cairns, Aus. > Heather Jacobs <heather.jacobs@bigpond.com> wrote: > > Phil, > Thank you so much for that information - you're right it's horrendous > but it > is part of our past. > Cheers > Heather > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sandra & Phil West" <sandrawest@bigpond.com> > To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 8:03 PM > Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Physical descriptions > > > > Heather > > > > The starting of the colony of NSW coincided with the period of the > cat. A > > cat of nine tails was used for most flogging. "Letting the cat out of > the > > bag" referred to taking the whip out of a baise bag and "not enough > room > > to > > swing a cat" came from the same period. > > > > The nine pieces of rope were about 30cms long and could be knotted to > > inflict more damage. Between strokes, the flogger would "comb the > cat" of > > gore between strokes. If the senior officer didn't feel the flogger > was > > using enough force, he would sentence him to a flogging as an example. > > > > The cat was use for one flogging only and was then destroyed. I > > understand > > the "cat" referred to the strike pattern of the whip which resembled, > for > > the first stroke or two, a large cat's claw marks. After that, the > > damage > > to the back was horrendous. > > > > Having been caned as a schoolboy, on the hand and the rear end, I know > how > > painful that was. I cringe at the concept of being tied upright, with > a > > leather apron around my kidneys (to prevent me being "permanently > > injured") > > and a piece of leather between my teeth to prevent me from screaming > > and/or > > biting through my tongue while they counted the strokes. > > > > Did I mention this was done in public and none of the spectators could > > > move, > > or adversely react or they could be next? > > > > Nice people weren't they? If you read the history of military and > naval > > history of the time, there are graphic details of this cruel > punishment. > > The British Army stopped it after the Crimean War, I believe, and > during > > WWI, they were much more civilised - they tightly lashed soldiers to a > > > wagon > > wheel in the sun with their back against the hub for hours in Field > > Punishment No 1. No water, of course. > > > > Is it any wonder that Australian soldiers were glad they were not > subject > > to > > British military law after the "Breaker" Morant episode in the Boer > War? > > My > > grandad, Ted Murray, was a Scot serving in the Australian forces and > he > > used > > tell me of the things he and his mates saw in British units. He had > mates > > in Scots units and they told him even more. > > > > Phil > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Heather Jacobs > > Sent: Sunday, 26 October 2008 5:38 PM > > To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Physical descriptions > > > > Dear Phil > > Thank you for your answer to Matt's question regarding the whipping of > > convicts. I am in the middle of a manuscript about Esther Abrams and > > Major > > George Johnston (my forefathers) and am interested in anything to do > with > > the treatment of convicts of the First Fleet - physical and emotional. > > > The > > descriptions may be a little macabre but they were real and I would > > welcome > > any stories people have about the times in the birth of our country. > > Heather > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Sandra & Phil West" <sandrawest@bigpond.com> > > To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 5:13 PM > > Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Physical descriptions > > > > > >> Matt > >> I am an amateur military historian and I am advised that the scarring > > >> from > >> whipping could leave the back either looking like a field ploughed by > a > >> madman or worse. Flogging was often performed by pairs and left > handers > >> were "valued" by authorities for crossing the T, thus forming almost > >> shallow > >> chevrons. > >> > >> They could reach the ribs with only four to six strokes. > >> > >> Not my idea of fun. > >> > >> Phil > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com > >> [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Matthew Hall > >> Sent: Sunday, 26 October 2008 2:16 PM > >> To: AUS-CONVICTS@rootsweb.com > >> Subject: [AUS-CON] Physical descriptions > >> > >> I was reading the Conditional Pardon of an ancestor (posted it at > >> http://thehistoryofmatt.blogspot.com/) and found the Physical > Description > >> interesting. Hair, eyes, tattoo, scars etc. > >> > >> One thing amiss was that I know that my ancestor George Bliss was > whipped > >> (in England) and have been told that he retained scarring on his back > > >> from > >> it. It seemed that this would be a pretty obvous physcal description. > I > >> was > >> wonderng if anyone had seen 'whipping scars' (or analogous) as a > physical > >> description? Or was it only outward appearance etc. Was there a > >> colonial/military guide to features that should be mentioned? > couldn't > >> find > >> one. > >> > >> Just curious > >> > >> cheers > >> matt > >> > >> -- > >> Matthew D. Hall > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > ---- > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1746 - Release Date: > 25/10/2008 > > 5:55 PM > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1746 - Release Date: > 25/10/2008 > 5:55 PM > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Phil, Thank you so much for that information - you're right it's horrendous but it is part of our past. Cheers Heather ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandra & Phil West" <sandrawest@bigpond.com> To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Physical descriptions > Heather > > The starting of the colony of NSW coincided with the period of the cat. A > cat of nine tails was used for most flogging. "Letting the cat out of the > bag" referred to taking the whip out of a baise bag and "not enough room > to > swing a cat" came from the same period. > > The nine pieces of rope were about 30cms long and could be knotted to > inflict more damage. Between strokes, the flogger would "comb the cat" of > gore between strokes. If the senior officer didn't feel the flogger was > using enough force, he would sentence him to a flogging as an example. > > The cat was use for one flogging only and was then destroyed. I > understand > the "cat" referred to the strike pattern of the whip which resembled, for > the first stroke or two, a large cat's claw marks. After that, the > damage > to the back was horrendous. > > Having been caned as a schoolboy, on the hand and the rear end, I know how > painful that was. I cringe at the concept of being tied upright, with a > leather apron around my kidneys (to prevent me being "permanently > injured") > and a piece of leather between my teeth to prevent me from screaming > and/or > biting through my tongue while they counted the strokes. > > Did I mention this was done in public and none of the spectators could > move, > or adversely react or they could be next? > > Nice people weren't they? If you read the history of military and naval > history of the time, there are graphic details of this cruel punishment. > The British Army stopped it after the Crimean War, I believe, and during > WWI, they were much more civilised - they tightly lashed soldiers to a > wagon > wheel in the sun with their back against the hub for hours in Field > Punishment No 1. No water, of course. > > Is it any wonder that Australian soldiers were glad they were not subject > to > British military law after the "Breaker" Morant episode in the Boer War? > My > grandad, Ted Murray, was a Scot serving in the Australian forces and he > used > tell me of the things he and his mates saw in British units. He had mates > in Scots units and they told him even more. > > Phil > > -----Original Message----- > From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Heather Jacobs > Sent: Sunday, 26 October 2008 5:38 PM > To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Physical descriptions > > Dear Phil > Thank you for your answer to Matt's question regarding the whipping of > convicts. I am in the middle of a manuscript about Esther Abrams and > Major > George Johnston (my forefathers) and am interested in anything to do with > the treatment of convicts of the First Fleet - physical and emotional. > The > descriptions may be a little macabre but they were real and I would > welcome > any stories people have about the times in the birth of our country. > Heather > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sandra & Phil West" <sandrawest@bigpond.com> > To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 5:13 PM > Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Physical descriptions > > >> Matt >> I am an amateur military historian and I am advised that the scarring >> from >> whipping could leave the back either looking like a field ploughed by a >> madman or worse. Flogging was often performed by pairs and left handers >> were "valued" by authorities for crossing the T, thus forming almost >> shallow >> chevrons. >> >> They could reach the ribs with only four to six strokes. >> >> Not my idea of fun. >> >> Phil >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Matthew Hall >> Sent: Sunday, 26 October 2008 2:16 PM >> To: AUS-CONVICTS@rootsweb.com >> Subject: [AUS-CON] Physical descriptions >> >> I was reading the Conditional Pardon of an ancestor (posted it at >> http://thehistoryofmatt.blogspot.com/) and found the Physical Description >> interesting. Hair, eyes, tattoo, scars etc. >> >> One thing amiss was that I know that my ancestor George Bliss was whipped >> (in England) and have been told that he retained scarring on his back >> from >> it. It seemed that this would be a pretty obvous physcal description. I >> was >> wonderng if anyone had seen 'whipping scars' (or analogous) as a physical >> description? Or was it only outward appearance etc. Was there a >> colonial/military guide to features that should be mentioned? couldn't >> find >> one. >> >> Just curious >> >> cheers >> matt >> >> -- >> Matthew D. Hall >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1746 - Release Date: 25/10/2008 > 5:55 PM > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1746 - Release Date: 25/10/2008 5:55 PM

Heather The starting of the colony of NSW coincided with the period of the cat. A cat of nine tails was used for most flogging. "Letting the cat out of the bag" referred to taking the whip out of a baise bag and "not enough room to swing a cat" came from the same period. The nine pieces of rope were about 30cms long and could be knotted to inflict more damage. Between strokes, the flogger would "comb the cat" of gore between strokes. If the senior officer didn't feel the flogger was using enough force, he would sentence him to a flogging as an example. The cat was use for one flogging only and was then destroyed. I understand the "cat" referred to the strike pattern of the whip which resembled, for the first stroke or two, a large cat's claw marks. After that, the damage to the back was horrendous. Having been caned as a schoolboy, on the hand and the rear end, I know how painful that was. I cringe at the concept of being tied upright, with a leather apron around my kidneys (to prevent me being "permanently injured") and a piece of leather between my teeth to prevent me from screaming and/or biting through my tongue while they counted the strokes. Did I mention this was done in public and none of the spectators could move, or adversely react or they could be next? Nice people weren't they? If you read the history of military and naval history of the time, there are graphic details of this cruel punishment. The British Army stopped it after the Crimean War, I believe, and during WWI, they were much more civilised - they tightly lashed soldiers to a wagon wheel in the sun with their back against the hub for hours in Field Punishment No 1. No water, of course. Is it any wonder that Australian soldiers were glad they were not subject to British military law after the "Breaker" Morant episode in the Boer War? My grandad, Ted Murray, was a Scot serving in the Australian forces and he used tell me of the things he and his mates saw in British units. He had mates in Scots units and they told him even more. Phil -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Heather Jacobs Sent: Sunday, 26 October 2008 5:38 PM To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Physical descriptions Dear Phil Thank you for your answer to Matt's question regarding the whipping of convicts. I am in the middle of a manuscript about Esther Abrams and Major George Johnston (my forefathers) and am interested in anything to do with the treatment of convicts of the First Fleet - physical and emotional. The descriptions may be a little macabre but they were real and I would welcome any stories people have about the times in the birth of our country. Heather ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandra & Phil West" <sandrawest@bigpond.com> To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Physical descriptions > Matt > I am an amateur military historian and I am advised that the scarring from > whipping could leave the back either looking like a field ploughed by a > madman or worse. Flogging was often performed by pairs and left handers > were "valued" by authorities for crossing the T, thus forming almost > shallow > chevrons. > > They could reach the ribs with only four to six strokes. > > Not my idea of fun. > > Phil > > -----Original Message----- > From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Matthew Hall > Sent: Sunday, 26 October 2008 2:16 PM > To: AUS-CONVICTS@rootsweb.com > Subject: [AUS-CON] Physical descriptions > > I was reading the Conditional Pardon of an ancestor (posted it at > http://thehistoryofmatt.blogspot.com/) and found the Physical Description > interesting. Hair, eyes, tattoo, scars etc. > > One thing amiss was that I know that my ancestor George Bliss was whipped > (in England) and have been told that he retained scarring on his back from > it. It seemed that this would be a pretty obvous physcal description. I > was > wonderng if anyone had seen 'whipping scars' (or analogous) as a physical > description? Or was it only outward appearance etc. Was there a > colonial/military guide to features that should be mentioned? couldn't > find > one. > > Just curious > > cheers > matt > > -- > Matthew D. Hall > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1746 - Release Date: 25/10/2008 5:55 PM ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Phil Thank you for your answer to Matt's question regarding the whipping of convicts. I am in the middle of a manuscript about Esther Abrams and Major George Johnston (my forefathers) and am interested in anything to do with the treatment of convicts of the First Fleet - physical and emotional. The descriptions may be a little macabre but they were real and I would welcome any stories people have about the times in the birth of our country. Heather ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandra & Phil West" <sandrawest@bigpond.com> To: <aus-convicts@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Physical descriptions > Matt > I am an amateur military historian and I am advised that the scarring from > whipping could leave the back either looking like a field ploughed by a > madman or worse. Flogging was often performed by pairs and left handers > were "valued" by authorities for crossing the T, thus forming almost > shallow > chevrons. > > They could reach the ribs with only four to six strokes. > > Not my idea of fun. > > Phil > > -----Original Message----- > From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Matthew Hall > Sent: Sunday, 26 October 2008 2:16 PM > To: AUS-CONVICTS@rootsweb.com > Subject: [AUS-CON] Physical descriptions > > I was reading the Conditional Pardon of an ancestor (posted it at > http://thehistoryofmatt.blogspot.com/) and found the Physical Description > interesting. Hair, eyes, tattoo, scars etc. > > One thing amiss was that I know that my ancestor George Bliss was whipped > (in England) and have been told that he retained scarring on his back from > it. It seemed that this would be a pretty obvous physcal description. I > was > wonderng if anyone had seen 'whipping scars' (or analogous) as a physical > description? Or was it only outward appearance etc. Was there a > colonial/military guide to features that should be mentioned? couldn't > find > one. > > Just curious > > cheers > matt > > -- > Matthew D. Hall > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1746 - Release Date: 25/10/2008 5:55 PM

Hi all: Such inhuman punishments in that period would rightly seem outrageous to people of our time. Although perhaps not on the scale of the cruelty of Nazis in WW2 Germany, or the Roman Empire, millennia ago, what such punishments do is to allow people to ask, what right do we Brits have to criticize inhuman acts by other nations in the world today when we have this baggage in our own past? As my 4th great-uncle Richard WILCOCKS/WILCOX was one of the First Fleet convicts, I can better understand why he died in December 1788, less than a year after his arrival in NSW, for an assault with intent to rob in 1785. Do as you would be done by! Regards Martin Willcocks Taylorsville UT, USA.

Matt I am an amateur military historian and I am advised that the scarring from whipping could leave the back either looking like a field ploughed by a madman or worse. Flogging was often performed by pairs and left handers were "valued" by authorities for crossing the T, thus forming almost shallow chevrons. They could reach the ribs with only four to six strokes. Not my idea of fun. Phil -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Matthew Hall Sent: Sunday, 26 October 2008 2:16 PM To: AUS-CONVICTS@rootsweb.com Subject: [AUS-CON] Physical descriptions I was reading the Conditional Pardon of an ancestor (posted it at http://thehistoryofmatt.blogspot.com/) and found the Physical Description interesting. Hair, eyes, tattoo, scars etc. One thing amiss was that I know that my ancestor George Bliss was whipped (in England) and have been told that he retained scarring on his back from it. It seemed that this would be a pretty obvous physcal description. I was wonderng if anyone had seen 'whipping scars' (or analogous) as a physical description? Or was it only outward appearance etc. Was there a colonial/military guide to features that should be mentioned? couldn't find one. Just curious cheers matt -- Matthew D. Hall ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I was reading the Conditional Pardon of an ancestor (posted it at http://thehistoryofmatt.blogspot.com/) and found the Physical Description interesting. Hair, eyes, tattoo, scars etc. One thing amiss was that I know that my ancestor George Bliss was whipped (in England) and have been told that he retained scarring on his back from it. It seemed that this would be a pretty obvous physcal description. I was wonderng if anyone had seen 'whipping scars' (or analogous) as a physical description? Or was it only outward appearance etc. Was there a colonial/military guide to features that should be mentioned? couldn't find one. Just curious cheers matt -- Matthew D. Hall

Hi Sandra The Indents for each convict transport are available at many libraries on microfiche. It depends on when a convict arrived as to how much information is provided but basic information such as the sentence they received is. Convicts permissions to marry are also available on microfiche and it is because I have transcribed all these convict related documents that I was able to state that Catherine was a convict at the time and that she had to apply to marry. Actually Jacob had also applied to marry Mary or Margaret Hart a few years previously - they did marry, but she died in 1833 - the same year he married Catherine. Catherine arrived on the Forth II in 1830 Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Sandra & Phil West Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 7:55 PM To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Jacob Winter - Catherine Laffan Lesley Thanks for your reply. How do I access: Information on when and by what ship she arrived in NSW; His and her sentences; and The application for marriage? Sandra

Lesley Thanks for your reply. How do I access: Information on when and by what ship she arrived in NSW; His and her sentences; and The application for marriage? Sandra -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lesley Uebel Sent: Saturday, 25 October 2008 3:58 PM To: aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [AUS-CON] Jacob Winter - Catherine Laffan That's correct Sandra - Catherine had to apply to marry and Jacob was free. regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Sandra & Phil West Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 4:45 PM To: AUS-CONVICTS@rootsweb.com Subject: [AUS-CON] Jacob Winter - Catherine Laffan Does anybody have any information on the marriage of Jacob Winter (Mariner I, 1816) to Catherine Laffan ca 1833. I understand Jacob came from Berkshire and Catherine from Kilkenny, Ireland. Jacob was sentenced to 14 years and would have been free by 1833 so Catherine must have applied to the Governor to marry. Sandra ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-CONVICTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

That's correct Sandra - Catherine had to apply to marry and Jacob was free. regards Lesley Uebel mailto:ckennedy@bigpond.net.au CLAIM A CONVICT http://users.bigpond.net.au/convicts/index.html -----Original Message----- From: aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:aus-convicts-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Sandra & Phil West Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 4:45 PM To: AUS-CONVICTS@rootsweb.com Subject: [AUS-CON] Jacob Winter - Catherine Laffan Does anybody have any information on the marriage of Jacob Winter (Mariner I, 1816) to Catherine Laffan ca 1833. I understand Jacob came from Berkshire and Catherine from Kilkenny, Ireland. Jacob was sentenced to 14 years and would have been free by 1833 so Catherine must have applied to the Governor to marry. Sandra

Does anybody have any information on the marriage of Jacob Winter (Mariner I, 1816) to Catherine Laffan ca 1833. I understand Jacob came from Berkshire and Catherine from Kilkenny, Ireland. Jacob was sentenced to 14 years and would have been free by 1833 so Catherine must have applied to the Governor to marry. Sandra

Hi list, for those with English ancestry the Yesterdays site , link below, has been updated with further records under Law and Order, for places beginning with letters A-R. Many petitions included of those desperately poor. Check out Pentrich Law and Order. Also look at Denby, Law and Order for an atrocious case. mike -- http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~spire/Yesterday/index.htm