----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Langford" <judy@fpchuntsville.com> To: <LANGFORD-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 9:09 AM Subject: [LANGFORD-L] Fw: Facts & Genes from Family Tree DNA We need more participants for the LANGFORD DNA Project!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: <editor@familytreedna.com> To: <judy@fpchuntsville.com> Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 10:36 PM Subject: Facts & Genes from Family Tree DNA > Facts & Genes from Family Tree DNA > ================================== > October 12, 2003 Volume 2, Issue 9 > > In This Issue > ============= > Editor's Corner > In the News: Family Tree Announcements > Genetic Genealogy: Selecting a Vendor > Interpreting Results: The Ancestral Result > Recruiting Participants: Cost Justify the Price > Case Studies in Genetic Genealogy > Spot Light: Mangum Surname Project > In the Next Issue > > > Editor's Corner > =============== > > Welcome to this issue of Facts & Genes. > > Family Tree DNA now has over 650 Surname Projects! October is Family > History month, and a terrific time to start a Surname Project if one > doesn't exist for your surname. It may seem overwhelming to start a > Surname Project, though it really isn't. Family Tree DNA is available by > phone and email to help you each step of the way. > > To determine if a Surname Project exists for your surname, click on the > link below to search. You can enter your Surname in the search box in the > upper right, or select a letter of the alphabet, and view all the Surname > Projects at Family Tree DNA for that letter of the alphabet. The number > to the right of each letter of the alphabet is a count of the number of > Surname Projects which start with that letter of the alphabet. > > http://www.familytreedna.com/surname.asp > > If you have been thinking about taking a Genetic Genealogy test, why not > celebrate Family History month by ordering a DNA test. If you are having > trouble deciding which test would be best for you, contact us, and we will > help. > > Customer Service: http://www.familytreedna.com/contact.html > Surname Projects: bcg@familytreedna.com > > If you are wondering when you will receive the results for your first DNA > test, log into your Personal Page at familytreedna.com. > > To log into your Personal Page, go to familytreedna.com. On the right you > will see a box titled: My FTDNA. Enter your kit number and password, and > click submit. > > If you are waiting for your first test results from Family Tree DNA, your > Personal Page will tell you when those results are expected. The > information shown is an estimate, and time frames may vary. Please note > that the information is only shown for your first test. If you have > already taken a test at Family Tree DNA, and ordered another test, we do > not currently show the status of that test. > > We at Family Tree DNA would like to thank everyone for his or her > suggestions, comments, and submissions. Your input is appreciated. Send > your comments, suggestions, tips, questions, and tell us about your > Surname Project to: editor@FamilyTreeDNA.com. We hope you enjoy this > issue. > > > > In the News: Family Tree DNA Announcements > ========================================== > > On your Personal Results Page for either Y DNA results or mtDNA results, > there is now a selection called: Understanding Your Results. If you click > on this selection, you will find information to help you understand your > results. This is the same information that comes in an envelope with your > certificate of results. Having the information online provides you with > quick access to this information. > > For Group Administrators, when you visit your Members Page, you can now > see which tests each participant has taken by hovering your mouse over > their kit number. > > Our Y DNA Recent Ethnic Origins database continues to grow. This database > is updated every two weeks. We currently have 15640 results, from 115 > countries. To search the Recent Ethnic Origins database: > > - log into familytreedna.com with your kit number and password > - click on the selection "Recent Ethnic Origins" on your Personal Page > > The New York Times ran an article on September 27, 2003 regarding the > results of a study of the > Y Chromosome Evidence of the Multiple Origins of Ashkenazi Levites. The > scientific paper on which this article was based utilized the standard > 12-marker Y-DNA test available from Family Tree DNA. To read the > scientific paper, click on the link below: > > http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Levite%20paper.pdf > > To better serve our customers, Family Tree DNA has added staff. To > determine the best person to contact, simply click on the link below. > > http://www.familytreedna.com/contact.html > > > > Genetic Genealogy: Selecting a vendor > ===================================== > > If you are considering utilizing Genetic Genealogy testing for your family > history research, an important decision is the vendor you select. When > you are reading about Genetic Genealogy and encountering new terms, it > might appear overwhelming and complicated to select a vendor. This > article provides an analytical approach that can be used for vendor > selection. > > To help you with vendor selection, two charts of the factors to consider > when selecting a vendor are shown below. The first chart is for selecting > a vendor for Y DNA testing, and the second chart is for selecting a vendor > for mtDNA testing. For those items which are not subject to bias, the > information for Family Tree DNA is shown. > > It is recommended that you first review the chart, and cross off any items > that are not important to you. You can also add any criteria to the > chart that is important to you. Then, you simply fill in the chart for > the vendors you are considering. > > You will notice that only a few items in the chart are completed for > Family Tree DNA. We have only entered items that are quantifiable, so > that this article is not biased. For example, we show the number of > markers we test, since this item does not involve a judgement, it is a > statement of fact. On the other hand, we did not enter a result for the > responsiveness of our customer service. You can make your own > determination by contacting us with your questions. > > The item labeled Price is also blank for Family Tree DNA. You would enter > either our standard pricing or our Surname Project pricing, depending on > whether you are considering a Surname Project or testing for your family > tree. > > > > Select a Vendor for Y DNA testing > ================================= > > Item Family Tree DNA Vendor > ---- ---------------- -------- > > Number of Y DNA Markers tested 12 or 25 > > Price > > Project Pricing Available Yes > > Project management Fee No > > Haplogroup estimated Yes > > Online Matching Yes > > Recent Ethnic Origins Database Yes > > Haplogroup Test Yes > > Project management tools Yes > > Responsive customer service > > DNA Storage 25 years included > > Certificate with results Yes > > > > > The chart below is to be used to evaluate vendors for mtDNA testing. > > > > > Select a Vendor for mtDNA testing > ================================= > > Item Family Tree DNA Vendor 2 > ---- ---------------- -------- > > Test HVR-1 Yes 540 base pairs > Test HVR-2 Yes 510 base pairs > > Price > > Project Pricing Available Yes > > Project management Fee No > > Online Matching Yes > > Project management tools Yes > > Responsive customer service > > DNA Storage 25 years included > > Certificate with results Yes > > > > > > > The criteria in the charts above are the most important factors for > selecting a vendor. If you have any additional criteria that are > important to you, simply add the criteria to the chart. > > If you have any questions, please contact us: info@familytreedna.com > > > > Interpreting Results: Determine the Ancestral Result > ==================================================== > > Determining the Ancestral Result for the 12 or 25 marker Y DNA test can > provide valuable information. The Ancestral Result is also useful when > comparing the results of different Lines of a surname. The Ancestral > Result is determined when we have a 25/25 match between two branches of > the tree for the most distant ancestor. > > In this article, we will follow the testing steps taken for a family tree > to determine the Ancestral Result. > > In our example, the most distant ancestor in the family tree had several > sons, but only 1 son who had descendents. This son had 5 sons. Each of > the 5 sons had male descendents, who then also had male descendents. > Below is a family tree, showing male descendents: > > > > > Founder > > Son: The only son who had descendents > > The children of the Son and their descendents: > > Grandson 1 > G-Grandson 1-1 > GG-Grandson 1-1-1 > Grandson 2 > G-Grandson 2-1 > GG-Grandson 2-1-1 > Grandson 3 > G-Grandson 3-1 > GG-Grandson 3-1-1 > GG-Grandson 3-1-2 > Grandson 4 > G-Grandson 4-1 > G-Grandson 4-2 > G-Grandson 4-3 > GG-Grandson 4-3-1 > GG-Grandson 4-3-2 > GG-Grandson 4-3-3 > GG-Grandson 4-3-4 > GG-Grandson 4-3-5 > Grandson 5 > G-Grandson 5-1 > > > > > > The males in the family tree above are labeled to reflect their Grandson > and their status, such as 1-1 would be a son of grandson 1, and 3-1-2 > would be a descendent of grandson 3. > > Initially, a descendent of Grandson 1 and Grandson 3 participated. These > participants were: > GG-Grandson 1-1-1 > GG-Grandson 3-1-1 > > > In the chart below, the 25 Marker results are shown for these two > participants. Mutations are underlined. > > > > Son 1-1-1: 15 23 15 10 15 15 13 13 11 14 12 30 16 8 9 11 11 26 15 20 29 > 11 11 14 16 > > Son 3-1-1: 15 23 15 10 15 16 13 13 11 14 12 30 16 8 9 11 11 26 15 20 30 > 11 11 14 16 > -- -- > > > > As you can see, there was a 23/25 match between these two participants. > Since these participants are closely related, a 25/25 match was expected. > > When you only have two participants and compare their results, there is no > evidence as to which of the participants have the mutations. Therefore, a > participant is selected at random to designate his results as the one with > the mutations. Which participant has the mutations may change as more > participants are tested. For example, it may turn out that Son 3-1-1 > above actually is the Ancestral result, and Son 1-1-1 has the mutations. > > Since the results do not match, we also can "not" determine the ancestral > result, which would be the result for the Son of the Founder. We need a > 25/25 match between two branches of descendents to determine the result > for the most distant ancestor of these descendents. In our example, it is > also slightly more complicated. The Founder only had one son who had male > descendents. We should be able to determine the Ancestral result for the > son of the founder. Since the founder did not have multiple sons with > male descendents, we will have no way to validate the founder's result. > Our best case will be to determine the result for the founder's son, and > then say that it is "most likely" that the Founder had the same result, > since mutations occur about every 500 generations per marker. > > The next step in our project to determine the Ancestral result, was to > test the father of the participant 1-1-1. Often it is difficult to find > the ideal participant, which would have been a descendent of Son 2, 4, or > 5. Having found a willing participant, we proceeded to test 1-1. The > results now with the three participants are shown below: > > > > > Son 1-1: 15 23 15 10 15 16 13 13 11 14 12 30 16 8 9 11 11 26 15 20 29 > 11 11 14 16 > > Son 1-1-1: 15 23 15 10 15 15 13 13 11 14 12 30 16 8 9 11 11 26 15 20 29 > 11 11 14 16 > -- > Son 3-1-1: 15 23 15 10 15 16 13 13 11 14 12 30 16 8 9 11 11 26 15 20 30 > 11 11 14 16 > -- > > > > > In our example above, notice that our determination of the mutations has > changed. By testing the father (1-1) of Son 1-1-1, we determined that > 1-1-1 had a mutation. It is unusual to see a mutation in a current > generation, but it does happen. > > In addition, we are closer to determining the Ancestral result. Between > the two branches shown, the branch for Son 1 and the branch for Son 3, > there is a 24/25 result. > > > Our next participant is 4-3-1. The chart below shows the results of the 4 > participants: > > > > Son 1-1: 15 23 15 10 15 16 13 13 11 14 12 30 16 8 9 11 11 26 15 20 29 > 11 11 14 16 > > Son 1-1-1: 15 23 15 10 15 15 13 13 11 14 12 30 16 8 9 11 11 26 15 20 29 > 11 11 14 16 > -- > Son 3-1-1: 15 23 15 10 15 16 13 13 11 14 12 30 16 8 9 11 11 26 15 20 30 > 11 11 14 16 > -- > Son 4-3-1: 15 23 15 10 15 16 13 13 11 14 12 30 16 8 9 11 11 26 15 20 29 > 11 11 14 16 > > > > > The chart above shows that we have succeeded in determining the Ancestral > Result. The Ancestral Result is determined when we have a 25/25 match > between two branches of the family tree for this most distant ancestor. > The ancestral result is: > > 15 23 15 10 15 16 13 13 11 14 12 30 16 8 9 11 11 26 15 20 29 11 11 14 16 > > In our first chart above, notice that we selected the mutation of 30 > correctly. This was just sheer luck, since we had no evidence at the time > as to which result, 29 or 30, would be the mutation. > > In our example, we tested 4 participants to determine the ancestral > result. The number of participants required to get a 25/25 match varies. > In some cases, as little as 2 participants from distant branches will lead > to a 25/25 result. In other cases, 3 or more participants may be > required. > > Determining the Ancestral Result is valuable. When we do a comparison to > other Lines of this surname, we want to do the comparison using the > Ancestral Result. By doing the additional testing to determine the > Ancestral Result, we have eliminated results with mutations. By > eliminating the results with the mutations, when we compare the Ancestral > Results for various Lines of a surname, we will get a more accurate > assessment between the Lines regarding the degree of relatedness. > > This approach to determine the Ancestral Result, and then use the > Ancestral Result for the comparison with other Lines, can lead to more > accurate conclusions. Those who are Haplogroup R1b should seriously > consider this approach to minimize incorrect determinations of > relatedness. > > Since the first step for Y DNA testing is typically to test two distant > branches of your family tree, you would have taken the first step to > determine the Ancestral Result. If you do not get a 25/25 match, you do > not know the Ancestral Result. Additional testing would be desirable, > until you get a 25/25 match between two distant participants. > > There is no way to predict how many participants would be required. > > > > Recruiting Participants: Cost Justify the Price > ================================================= > > In the process of finding participants for your Genetic Genealogy testing, > you will encounter what is called a "price objection". The person does > not want to participate due to the cost of the test. > > Price objections are quite common. Usually it is "not" a true objection, > and is a smoke screen for other objections, which are the true objections. > > When a price objection is encountered, the next step is to determine > whether you are dealing with a true objection or a smoke screen. One > question to ask to make this determination is: "If I can find some > sponsors to make a donation towards the cost of testing, will you > participate"? > > The response to this question will start to separate those with a true > price objection, and those with other objections. If the answer is "yes", > then you are dealing with a price objection. Any other response means > that you have not uncovered their true objections. In this case, where > the price objection is a smoke screen, the most likely issue is fear. > More information about dealing with fear is in a past issue of the > newsletter: > > http://www.familytreedna.com/facts_genes.asp?act=show&nk=2.7 > > When you have established that you have a true price objection, then you > would want to determine which type of price objection you are dealing > with. You may have a potential participant who can not afford the > testing, or you may have a potential participant who can afford the > testing, but does not see the "value". > > For a potential participant who wants to participate, and can not afford > the costs, then you may want to consider finding sponsors for all or a > portion of the cost. Another alternative, is to suggest that the > potential participant contact others in their family tree, to find those > willing to split the cost of the testing for the potential participant. > > When a price objection is based on the situation where the value has not > been established, your focus should be on establishing value for the > potential participant. Value is established based on what they will get > for participating, and what is important to them. > > If the potential participant isn't interested in genealogy, and you > desperately need their participation to validate your family tree - you > don't have much to offer that interests the potential participant, so you > may end up needing sponsors for some or all of the cost of testing. When > the potential participant isn't interested in family history, the best > item you have to offer of "value" is how important they are to the > project. > > When your potential participant is interested in family history, it is > much easier to establish the value. For example, the information provided > from participating could result in them saving a significant amount of > time. Validating their research most likely would have value. These > items of value are subjective, and which are important depends on your > potential participant. > > A potential participant may not realize what they are spending on their > family history research, usually because the expenses are often many small > amounts. These small amounts are not very visible, and add up quickly. > For example, if they ordered any UK certificates for birth, marriage or > death, they most likely paid a minimum of £11.50, which would be > approximately $19.20 US Dollars. Just 5 UK certificates would be the > equivalent of a 12 Marker Y DNA test as part of a Surname Project! > > If the potential participant orders 2 to 3 films at a Family History > Center each month, at the end of a year, they have spent the equivalent of > a 12 Marker Y DNA test as part of a Surname Project. > > A research trip will typically cost more than a Y DNA test. > > With many books, CD's of data, and subscription or pay per view online > data sites available, it is quite easy to spend the equivalent of a Y DNA > test in a short amount of time, and not even realize it. Many times the > expenditure on certificates doesn't work out, since the right people > weren't found, or a CD could be a disappointment since it was the wrong > family. > > A Y DNA test provides information that can't be acquired any other way. > In addition, the Y DNA test keeps providing information, long after your > results are received, as you find others in the future who match, and an > email shows up in your inbox, telling you that you have a match. > > To overcome a price objection, establish value for the potential > participant. > > > > Case Studies in Genetic Genealogy > ================================= > > In each issue of the Newsletter, we look at what Genetic Genealogy will do > for your Family History research. This article is a continuation of the > topic, with situations, called "Case Studies", followed by a > recommendation. The objective of the case studies is to present different > situations you may encounter in your family history research, and how DNA > testing can be applied. > > > Case Study > ========== > I am wondering whether Genetic Genealogy testing would be appropriate for > our situation. There are two families in a small town in Europe with > identical surnames. Both families have been present in this small town > since the mid 1700's or earlier. No link between the families has been > established, despite much effort that even included hiring a professional > genealogist back in Europe. The hypothesis is that these two families are > related to each other. There are male descendents of both families in the > US today. Can Genetic Genealogy help us? > > > Recommendation > ============== > > Your situation is ideal for Y-DNA testing. By testing two direct male > descendents from each family, you will determine if the families are > related. We recommend testing two direct male descendents in each family, > that are distantly related, such as distant cousins. This step is known > as the validation step. Both the descendents in a family should match > 25/25, or 24/25. > > You could take a chance that the families are related, and postpone the > validation step. In this approach you would test one direct descent male > from each family. If they match or are a close match, then you could skip > the validation step. If they do not match, then test a distant relative > in each family tree to validate the results for the family tree. > > > > Spot Light: Mangum Surname Project > ====================================== > > The Mangum Surname Project started in January 2003, and is still in it's > infancy. The Surname Project currently has 16 participants, and was > established for the surnames: Malham, Mangham, Mangles, Mangrum, Mangum, > Maugham, Mengham, and Mingham. > > The first participants in the Mangum Surname Project were a Parham, and > several males with the Mangum surname, and two males with the Mangrum > surname. The Parham participant descended from a Mangum, and ended up > with a different surname, since his Great Grandfather took on the Parham > surname, as did his Great Grandfather's brother. > > The results for the first participants were: > > - a group who matched each other 25/25 > - the Parham participant who only matched the group 23/25 > - two participants who were not related to any of the other participants > or each other > > The 23/25 match by the Parham participant was a disappointment, and also a > concern, since the participants all belong to the R1b Haplogroup. Since > this 23/25 match indicated a more distant relationship than was expected > from the genealogy records, another descendent in the Parham tree > participated. The first Parham participant was a descendent of Henry > Parham. The second Parham participant was a descendent of Henry's brother > George. The descendent of George matched 25/25. Therefore, the 2 > mutations must have occurred in the branch of the tree starting with > Henry. Henry had two sons, and the Parham with the 23/25 match descended > from one of the sons. A participant was then found for the second son of > Henry. This descendent was a 24/25 match to the Mangum result. > > As a result, it has been determined that Henry Parham had a mutation, > which was passed on to both his sons. Then, in a later generation, > another descendent of one son had a mutation, resulting in the 23/25 match > with the Mangum result. > > The chart below shows the branch of the family tree starting with the > father of George and Henry. The results in parenthesis, such as (25/25) > are the results as compared to the group of Mangum participants, who all > match each other 25/25. > > > > Archibald J. Mangum > Son: George Mangum/Parham > Grandson: Parham > great-grandson: Parham (25/25) > > Son: Henry Mangum/Parham > Grandson: Parham > great-grandson: Parham > Great-great-grandson: Parham (24/25) > Grandson: Parham > great-grandson: Parham > Great-great-grandson: Parham (23/25) > > > > The additional testing in the Parham branch was very beneficial and > identified the occurrence of the two mutations in the initial 23/25 match, > and also produced a 25/25 match to the Mangum result. > > The Mangum project continues to recruit participants, and hopes to > identify eventually the number of Mangum and variant lines, and their > ancestral origin. To date, participants have had the surnames: Mangum, > Mangham and Mangrum. > > > > In the Next Issue > ================= > We hope you have enjoyed this issue of Facts & Genes. Please feel free to > contact the editor with your comments, feedback, questions to be > addressed, as well as suggestions for future articles. If you would like > your Surname Project featured in our Spotlight column in a future issue, > please send an email telling us about your project. If you are a Project > Manager and can help others with tips or suggestions, please contact the > editor: editor@FamilyTreeDNA.com > > > > > > > =============================================================== > REPRINT POLICY: > We encourage the circulation of "Facts & Genes" by newsletters and lists > providing that you credit the author, include our copyright information > (Copyright 2003, Family Tree DNA), and cite "Facts & Genes" > (http://www.familytreeDNA.com/facts_genes.asp) as the source. > > Use this link to be removed from the subscriber list. > http://www.familytreedna.com/fgRegister.asp?act=remove&id=5386 > ==== LANGFORD Mailing List ==== As cowboys say out on the range: "Let's round them up." Lost and stray Langfords are in need of owner brands. Report sightings to the list and receive your reward. ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237