>Hi All, > > Maybe i'm confused or I missed something but I thought the term Black >dutch ("Black Deutsch") referred to the germans from the Black Forest area >of Germany. >Jerry, you're partly right, they certainly did come from Germany but the Black >Forrest part is new to me. I have researched my Black Dutch connections all >the way back to Hessendarnstadt, Germany, not far from Frankfurt. >No one knows for sure what Black Dutch really means, but there are about >15-20 different theories about what it means. I suggest you pull up a >search engine and type in "Black Dutch" to find information about those >theories. Last night I found many of these theories all listed together at ><http://www.dvdol.com/~goode/Dutch.htm> but at the moment, that server >appears to be down as I get an error message trying to return to that page. >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Found this on the Web ><http://www.tngenweb.usit.com/cherokee_by_blood/dutch.htm>http://www.tngenw >eb.usit.com/cherokee_by_blood/dutch.htm >WHO WERE THE BLACK DUTCH? >WHO WERE THE BLACK DUTCH ? ? ? Your answers ran a spectrum from family >tradition through encyclopedia citations, and because your findings may assist >others who find this tradition in their family, here are some responses: >DUTCH, according to Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia: — a term which originally >referred to ANYTHING of GERMAN derivation thus High Dutch signified the High >German language, and Low Dutch the Low German. >In modern usage, however, the term Dutch may be CORRECTLY applied ONLY to the >peoples and the language of the Netherlands. The phrase "Pennsylvania Dutch" >referring to the speech and origin of the inhabitants of certain sections of >Pennsylvania, dates from the time when DUTCH SIGNIFIED GERMAN. >The War of Spanish Succession, 1704-1714 fought by Austria, England, the >Netherlands and Prussia - against France and Spain, arose over disputes over >the succession to the throne of Spain on the death of Charles II of Spain. >Spanish soldiers married Dutch (Holland) girls, and their children. whose >coloring was olive, with black hair were called "Black Dutch". Their Holland >neighbors were fair skinned and blond. This explanation seems to have come >down >in several of your families who claim "Black Dutch" descent. >Another reported that the WILHITES who were imported to VA by Gov. SPOTTSWOOD >as part of the Germana Colony of Iron workers were "Black Dutch." They came >from Alsace-Lorraine an area of contention between France and Germany. They >had >black hair, "china blue to purplish blue eyes", fair skin, and tall. "The >Black >Forest" was mentioned as their home. >No doubt some of the German-speaking immigrants to the colonies WERE >descendants of some of the darker races. >How we may have warped the meaning of "Black Dutch" becomes apparent in both a >newspaper article and a letter. At a time when it was not fashionable to have >Indian blood, here is what might happen: >"It used to be that if you had Indian blood in you and someone asked you what >you were, you'd say 'Black Dutch' but now more and more of our people are >coming out," said Morning Star, wife of Chief Neal McCormick, chief of the >Eastern Creek Indian Nation. >Another writer, descendant of a Creek Chief, wrote "the term Black Dutch is >used to refer to one that has Indian Blood, and most particularly with CREEK >INDIAN BLOOD. Although there were a few German/Swiss in the Creek Nation, they >were in the minority. The term acutally does not refer be have any connection >to this nationality. The Creeks preferred the Scotch, English or Irish in that >order as far as marriage was concerned. There is no explanation as to why they >preferred the Scotch." So you see the term used to distinguish and describe >progeny of Hollander-Spanish marriages, was later the disquise used by Indian >white descendants to cover their red heritage. >We must hope that our "enlightened age" will see a renewed value placed on >heritage, be it from red-white-or black. >Originally printed in FAMILY PUZZLLERS - Mary Bondurant Warren, Editor July >22, >1976, No. 457. Permission to reprint on the Internet granted to Jerry Wright >Jordan by Mary Bondurant Warrent September 25, 1996. >Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 21:41:49 EST >From: DVL302@aol.com >To: WELLS-L@rootsweb.com >Message-ID: <81fb6b76.3636846d@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Levi and Susan Wells >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > >______________________________X-Message: #9 >Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 21:28:07 -0600 >From: Denise Kester <dkester@sunflower.com> >To: WELLS-L@rootsweb.com >Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981028032807.006b5fe8@sunflower.com> >Subject: Re: Black Dutch >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >This is funny--we have a family book in which a cousin of my mothers has >reproduced (photocopied) photos of our ancestors. I was looking at the >photos to see if I could tell where my sister and I got some of our facial >features (my sister and I look quite a bit alike) and I focused on our great >great grandmother from Hessen-Darmstadt. The more I looked at her the more >I thought she looked like she had Negro blood. My mother thought I was >nuts-I need to explain that my sister and I are blonde and blue-eyed. My >sister has been taken for Swedish at times. I wonder if this is also what >Black Dutch may mean? If not, you can just join my mother and concur that >I'm crazy! PS: these are not WELLSes-WELLS is on my father's side of the >family, not my mother's. > At 07:31 PM 10/27/98 -0600, you wrote: >>No one knows for sure what Black Dutch really means, but there are about >>15-20 different theories about what it means. I suggest you pull up a >>search engine and type in "Black Dutch" to find information about those >>theories. Last night I found many of these theories all listed together at >><http://www.dvdol.com/~goode/Dutch.htm> but at the moment, that server >>appears to be down as I get an error message trying to return to that page. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Jerry E. Davis Jr. <kb5eko@pdq.net> >>To: WELLS-L@rootsweb.com <WELLS-L@rootsweb.com> >>Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 1:05 PM > >Another version. > >My mother used this expression all the time. My wife's mother also did >so. >My mother used it in the respect that Black Dutch meant one of the salt >of the earth, a solid citizen, but of lower birth, as opposed to one of >higher birth, may be with a very high opinion of themselves. My Mother's >ancestors were from a forest, not the Black Forest, but the Westerwald > >My mother-in-law used the term in reference to her first husband who had >a von in front of his name. She was found of saying he thought he was >somebody, but he was just Black Dutch, meaning one of lower birth, but >trying to put on airs with the von prefix. In this usage the intent was >a little bit demeaning and derogatory. > >What ever the true meaning, it most surely refers to the German race. > >Herb & Mary Reay >Tucson, AZ >hwra@juno.com > >______________________________X-Message: #11 >Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 21:16:44 -0800 >From: "Orin R. Wells" <ORWells@bigfoot.com> >To: WELLS-L@rootsweb.com >Message-Id: <199810280530.VAA03642@bl-4.rootsweb.com> >Subject: Re: Levi and Susan Wells n >When I finally tracked down a couple of Neeley cousins I'd been looking for I >asked them if they knew anything about our Indian ancestor. They became very >upset and insisted that their "Papa" had always said they were, "Black >Dutch." > >My father (b. 1908) and siblings were raised in Sequoyah Co., OK, which was in >Indian Territory until Oklahoma became a state. My Aunt, upon hearing what >the Neeley cousins had to say, told me that many of the people living in >Eastern Okla., in the early 1900's who were part Indian didn't wish to be >known as "Indian" so claimed to be Black Dutch. Apparently this is what my >Neeley relation did so perhaps others did too? > >First of all the speakers of Pennsylfawnish Deitch are the reason it is >called Dutch, the Auslanders(non-German or German-Swiss or Alsace-Lorraine >peoples)could not pronounce >Deitch---so they called it Dutch,an unfortunate misnomer. Pennsylvania Dutch >is actually a form of Plattdeutch,that German spoken in the Palatinate area >of Southern Germany. >Actually High German and Low German do not refer to social class,but to the >section of Germany it comes from. More often referred to as NORD-DEUTSCH and >SUD-DEUTSCH. And actually it is more likely that the "Black Dutch" >originated with French Mennonite families such as LeFebvre,Martin to mention >a couple. > Das is alles > Brian C.Page > An "English" who learned to >speak > Pennsylfawnisch Deitch > >>Found this on the Web >><http://www.tngenweb.usit.com/cherokee_by_blood/dutch.htm>http://www.tngenw >>eb.usit.com/cherokee_by_blood/dutch.htm >>WHO WERE THE BLACK DUTCH? >>WHO WERE THE BLACK DUTCH ? ? ? Your answers ran a spectrum from family >>tradition through encyclopedia citations, and because your findings may assist >>others who find this tradition in their family, here are some responses: >>DUTCH, according to Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia: — a term which originally >>referred to ANYTHING of GERMAN derivation thus High Dutch signified the High >>German language, and Low Dutch the Low German. >>In modern usage, however, the term Dutch may be CORRECTLY applied ONLY to the >>peoples and the language of the Netherlands. The phrase "Pennsylvania Dutch" >>referring to the speech and origin of the inhabitants of certain sections of >>Pennsylvania, dates from the time when DUTCH SIGNIFIED GERMAN. >>The War of Spanish Succession, 1704-1714 fought by Austria, England, the >>Netherlands and Prussia - against France and Spain, arose over disputes over >>the succession to the throne of Spain on the death of Charles II of Spain. >>Spanish soldiers married Dutch (Holland) girls, and their children. whose >>coloring was olive, with black hair were called "Black Dutch". Their Holland >>neighbors were fair skinned and blond. This explanation seems to have come >>down >>in several of your families who claim "Black Dutch" descent. >>Another reported that the WILHITES who were imported to VA by Gov. SPOTTSWOOD >>as part of the Germana Colony of Iron workers were "Black Dutch." They came >>from Alsace-Lorraine an area of contention between France and Germany. They >>had >>black hair, "china blue to purplish blue eyes", fair skin, and tall. "The >>Black >>Forest" was mentioned as their home. >>No doubt some of the German-speaking immigrants to the colonies WERE >>descendants of some of the darker races. >>How we may have warped the meaning of "Black Dutch" becomes apparent in both a >>newspaper article and a letter. At a time when it was not fashionable to have >>Indian blood, here is what might happen: >>"It used to be that if you had Indian blood in you and someone asked you what >>you were, you'd say 'Black Dutch' but now more and more of our people are >>coming out," said Morning Star, wife of Chief Neal McCormick, chief of the >>Eastern Creek Indian Nation. >>Another writer, descendant of a Creek Chief, wrote "the term Black Dutch is >>used to refer to one that has Indian Blood, and most particularly with CREEK >>INDIAN BLOOD. Although there were a few German/Swiss in the Creek Nation, they >>were in the minority. The term acutally does not refer be have any connection >>to this nationality. The Creeks preferred the Scotch, English or Irish in that >>order as far as marriage was concerned. There is no explanation as to why they >>preferred the Scotch." So you see the term used to distinguish and describe >>progeny of Hollander-Spanish marriages, was later the disquise used by Indian >>white descendants to cover their red heritage. >>We must hope that our "enlightened age" will see a renewed value placed on >>heritage, be it from red-white-or black. >>Originally printed in FAMILY PUZZLLERS - Mary Bondurant Warren, Editor July >>22, >>1976, No. 457. Permission to reprint on the Internet granted to Jerry Wright >>Jordan by Mary Bondurant Warrent September 25, 1996. >> >