Wallace and others, There is a "Succession of Churches 1733-1929" diagram on p. 189 in the following item: Steel, Donald J., National Index of Parish Registers, V.12. "Sources for Scottish genealogy and family history". London: Phillimore & Co., LTD. 1970 It may help a bit. Claire Claire V. Brisson-Banks, B.S., MLIS, A.G. Family History Library 35 N West Temple Salt Lake City, UT 84150-3440 801-240-1662 801-455-6271 (cell) -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 7:55 AM To: [email protected] Subject: ANGUS Digest, Vol 6, Issue 162 If you are responding to an item in this Digest, please remember to use the item, title, not the Digest title, so that other people can see what you are responding to! Thank you. Today's Topics: 1. Re: What are the limits..... (Gordon Johnson) 2. Re: what are the limits . . . (Anne Burgess) 3. Re: What are the limits..... (Wallace Fullerton) 4. Re: what are the limits . . . (Wallace Fullerton) 5. Re: What are the limits..... ([email protected]) 6. Re: what are the limits . . . (Sue Richart) 7. Re: what are the limits . . . (Anne Burgess) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 12:29:20 +0100 From: Gordon Johnson <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ANGUS] What are the limits..... To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Wallace , There is a big difference between the word "protestant" and the churches of Scotland. Effectively, ALL churches that are not Roman Catholic are Protestant, so that apart from the Church of Scotland there are the Scottish Episcopal Church of Scotland, The Congregational Union, the Baptists, Unitarian, and all the breakaway denominations which formed (and re-formed) over the years. A Church of Scotland minister years back produced a diagram showing all the splits and joinings, and it was a complicated jigsaw. The main non-C. of S. offshoot denominations today are the Free Church of Scotland, The United Free Church of Scotland, the Free Presbyterian Church, the United Reformed Church, etc. Earlier we had for example the Relief Church and the United Secession Church who amalgamated to become the United Presbyterian Church, which later united with part of the Free Church to become the United Free Church of Scotland. You can get tied in knots just following all the Protestant demoninations! I have not mentioned the Quakers or the Salvation Army, as they were not mainstream nor have they many records useful for genealogy. Take into account that each of these denominations had their own records, and that most have not made it into any online index yet, on cannot rely on any online index to be comprehensive. Being the only solution in an online index does not mean that there are no other people who have not been indexed; in fact a survey done in Glasgow in the 1800s indicated that up to one third of all births never appeared in church records! One is dependent on the completeness of records in one's parish of interest, and that various from pretty good to almost nil. You can use a range of other records to supplement what is available on the IGI and scotlandspeople - the census returns, poor law records (from the 1840s, and just as variable as the church records, though sometimes fantastic in detail), newspapers (though very few are indexed), wills and testaments, sasines (property transfers), estate records, business records, militaryt records, court cases, to name but a few.... I would suggest a trawl through the online National Archives of Scotland <http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/> (shortly to become the National Records of Scotland) catalogue, as it is becoming a very useful tool. Enough of this lecture....!:-[ Gordon. Wallace Fullerton <[email protected]> asked: For some years I've been trying to pin down the origin of my 4g-grandparents, George Fullerton and Margaret Pirie. Their memorial inscription suggests George was born in or about 1707 and Margaret about 1714. They first show up when their marriage was recorded in 1739 in the OPRs for Dunnichen and Dun, and they lived as the tenants of the Mains of Dun until 1758, after which they relocated with their large family to Benholm in Kincardine. Having gotten nowhere with solid documentation, I am now attempting to encircle the available data and methodically knock off the less-likely possibilities. I've already looked through the IGI (using familysearch.org) for all "George Fullertons" born in the early 1700s - there are only a couple, and only one born in 1707. Now I am searching for all Fullerton marriages in Scotland likely to produce a child in the 1707 time frame - basically from 1690 through 1710. Again there are surprisingly few - maybe 100 or so (including the marriage of the parents of the sole George born in 1707 and another Fullerton marriage in Dunnichen.) I'd be interested in any thoughts this forum might have regarding several questions: 1. Does this methodology have merit? 2. One weakness is that there are sometimes gaps in the data from the OPRs (Dun Parish is missing many years, for example). What else might affect my results? I know that the family was Protestant but what other religious groups might I be missing by relying on the IGI (which is extracted mostly from the OPRs?) 3. How far, geographically, should I be setting my boundaries. Initially I am looking at Fullerton marriages only in the northern portion of Angus and in Kincardine because that's where the known family lived and remained for nearly a century (although spreading considerably further in the third generation.) Was it common for a couple to meet and marry when their families were separated by more than perhaps 15 or 20 miles? The farthest apart I've found so far was a marriage between a Menmuir male and a Laurencekirk female, approximately 20 miles apart. 4. I'd appreciate any ideas on how I might refine this rather coarse approach. Thanks! ********************************** ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:02:25 +0100 From: "Anne Burgess" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ANGUS] what are the limits . . . To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Hi Wallace Looking at all the available records is never going to help if your people happen not to be in the records. You can certainly form a hypothesis, and you can look for information which would confirm that hypothesis, but just because there is an obvious candidate doesn't mean that s/he is the right one. So 1. Yes, up to a poimt 2. Depends which denomination of Protestant they were. If they were C of S, the extant records are easily accessible, but if they were Episcopalian, or belonged to one of the dissenting Protestant denominations, you will have more of a problem. Also, in the early 18th century the RC records are very patchy, and there is no guarantee that a couple married in 1737 in the C of S didn't start out as RC or some other kind of Protestant. 3. Anywhere. It's fairly likely that your ancestors didn't move far, but on the other hand your one could be the one who moved from the south of England to the Mearns about 1700. Unlikely, I agree, but you can't exclude the possibility. 4. Do your searching/sorting of available data, then think about where to look to fill in the gaps. The archives of the Erskines of Dun, for example, are in the National Archives of Scotland and may contain references to your George. I found, for example, a letter from my umpteenth great-grandfather applying for the tenancy of a farm on Seafield Estates in 1771, and the Dun records might contain similar material. I also found an obituary of one Edward Sang (1805-1890) which recounted his descent from a farmer surnamed Sang in Aberdeenshire around 1700, via the gardener at the House of Dun and the Provost of Kirkcaldy. I have yet to trawl through the Dun records to see if they mention him, but I live in hope of one day having time to do so. Happy hunting! Anne ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 08:39:56 -0400 From: Wallace Fullerton <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ANGUS] What are the limits..... To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Thanks, Gordon, for the "lecture." I was hoping that someone would respond with such a thorough discussion and I much appreciate the effort you put into it. Regarding my situation, let me add some information: I am looking for this family during a relatively short timeframe - specifically in a 15 year (approximately) period around the birth of George Fullerton about 1707. That should significantly reduce the complexity of the search although it also limits the available resources. I believe many of the branches of the Protestant movement mentioned by you were not around in 1700 (e.g., the Free Church, to which some of my family belonged in the 18th century.) I would be interested in which groups were "in business" about 1700 so I can consider their importance in my search. I know, for example, that the Fullertons of Kinnaber were Quakers and that my family lived only a few miles from Kinnaber but the fact that my family was recorded in the Dun parish records after 1739 suggests they remained mainstream (unfortunately the Dun records are fragmentary prior to 1740.) Additionally, the usefulness of many of the available resources is also reduced by my focus on the 1700 period - the post-1855 material is of no use at all (for this specific purpose.) Hence my focus on the IGI (and related material.) Thanks again! - Wally - On 7/12/2011 7:29 AM, Gordon Johnson wrote: > Wallace , > There is a big difference between the word "protestant" and the churches > of Scotland. Effectively, ALL churches that are not Roman Catholic are > Protestant, so that apart from the Church of Scotland there are the > Scottish Episcopal Church of Scotland, The Congregational Union, the > Baptists, Unitarian, and all the breakaway denominations which formed > (and re-formed) over the years. A Church of Scotland minister years back > produced a diagram showing all the splits and joinings, and it was a > complicated jigsaw. The main non-C. of S. offshoot denominations today > are the Free Church of Scotland, The United Free Church of Scotland, the > Free Presbyterian Church, the United Reformed Church, etc. > Earlier we had for example the Relief Church and the United Secession > Church who amalgamated to become the United Presbyterian Church, which > later united with part of the Free Church to become the United Free > Church of Scotland. You can get tied in knots just following all the > Protestant demoninations! > I have not mentioned the Quakers or the Salvation Army, as they were not > mainstream nor have they many records useful for genealogy. > Take into account that each of these denominations had their own > records, and that most have not made it into any online index yet, on > cannot rely on any online index to be comprehensive. Being the only > solution in an online index does not mean that there are no other people > who have not been indexed; in fact a survey done in Glasgow in the 1800s > indicated that up to one third of all births never appeared in church > records! > One is dependent on the completeness of records in one's parish of > interest, and that various from pretty good to almost nil. > You can use a range of other records to supplement what is available on > the IGI and scotlandspeople - the census returns, poor law records (from > the 1840s, and just as variable as the church records, though sometimes > fantastic in detail), newspapers (though very few are indexed), wills > and testaments, sasines (property transfers), estate records, business > records, militaryt records, court cases, to name but a few.... I would > suggest a trawl through the online National Archives of Scotland > <http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/> > (shortly to become the National Records of Scotland) catalogue, as it is > becoming a very useful tool. > Enough of this lecture....!:-[ > Gordon. > > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 08:45:55 -0400 From: Wallace Fullerton <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ANGUS] what are the limits . . . To: Anne Burgess <[email protected]>, [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Thanks, Anne. Yes, you state the obvious and you are absolutely right. That's part of the reason for my questions - I'm hoping to move beyond the obvious. I am still hoping, someday, to have the opportunity to delve into the records of the Erskine estate at Dun. I'm also hoping you have the same opportunity and, when that happens, you remember my interest! I was interested to see in some of the circa 1800 newspapers that the availability of tenancies was sometimes advertised widely. I don't know if that was also true 50 years earlier but it opened my eyes a bit. Regards, - Wally - On 7/12/2011 8:02 AM, Anne Burgess wrote: > Hi Wallace > > Looking at all the available records is never going to help if > your people happen not to be in the records. You can certainly > form a hypothesis, and you can look for information which would > confirm that hypothesis, but just because there is an obvious > candidate doesn't mean that s/he is the right one. > > So > > 1. Yes, up to a poimt > > 2. Depends which denomination of Protestant they were. If they > were C of S, the extant records are easily accessible, but if > they were Episcopalian, or belonged to one of the dissenting > Protestant denominations, you will have more of a problem. > > Also, in the early 18th century the RC records are very patchy, > and there is no guarantee that a couple married in 1737 in the C > of S didn't start out as RC or some other kind of Protestant. > > 3. Anywhere. It's fairly likely that your ancestors didn't move > far, but on the other hand your one could be the one who moved > from the south of England to the Mearns about 1700. Unlikely, I > agree, but you can't exclude the possibility. > > 4. Do your searching/sorting of available data, then think about > where to look to fill in the gaps. The archives of the Erskines > of Dun, for example, are in the National Archives of Scotland > and may contain references to your George. I found, for example, > a letter from my umpteenth great-grandfather applying for the > tenancy of a farm on Seafield Estates in 1771, and the Dun > records might contain similar material. > > I also found an obituary of one Edward Sang (1805-1890) which > recounted his descent from a farmer surnamed Sang in > Aberdeenshire around 1700, via the gardener at the House of Dun > and the Provost of Kirkcaldy. I have yet to trawl through the > Dun records to see if they mention him, but I live in hope of > one day having time to do so. > > Happy hunting! > > Anne > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:00:23 +0100 (BST) From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ANGUS] What are the limits..... To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" "I would be interested in which groups were "in business" about 1700 so I can consider their importance in my search." There's a useful table on page 287 of Tracing Scottish Ancestors by Rosemary Bigwood which sets out all the main schisms and re-unifications. According to that, 1690 saw the split which led to the creation of the Episcopal Church, the Reformed Presbyterian Church (RP) and the Church of Scotland itself. 1712 saw the passing of the Patronage Act which in turn led to the 1st big secession in 1733. So if you are looking for ancestors around 1700, then your main options seem to be Church of Scotland (ie Presbyterian), RP or Episcopal. Elwyn ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 06:18:13 -0700 From: Sue Richart <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ANGUS] what are the limits . . . To: Anne Burgess <[email protected]>, [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]om> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Anne Burgess wrote: 3. Anywhere. It's fairly likely that your ancestors didn't move far, but on the other hand your one could be the one who moved from the south of England to the Mearns about 1700. Unlikely, I agree, but you can't exclude the possibility. Anne, Where can I find more about this reference to moving to the Mearns? I still can't confirm that the George Nelson (b. about 1834) and Elizabeth Gibson (b. about 1829) in the Angus area are actually my gggrandparents, but on some of the earlier Canadian censuses, George was listed as born in England. Later ones say Scotland. The 1700 time frame is a bit early, but worth looking into. Sue Richart Washington State ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:51:00 +0100 From: "Anne Burgess" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ANGUS] what are the limits . . . To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original : >It's fairly likely that your ancestors didn't move > far, but on the other hand your one could be the one who moved > from the south of England to the Mearns about 1700. Unlikely, > I > agree, but you can't exclude the possibility. > Where can I find more about this reference to moving to the > Mearns? Sorry, that was a purely hypothetical ancestor of Wallace's - trying to underline the point that jst because he was married in the Mearns in 1739 doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't move there from the south of England. Anne ------------------------------ To contact the ANGUS list administrator, send an email to [email protected] To post a message to the ANGUS mailing list, send an email to [email protected] __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of ANGUS Digest, Vol 6, Issue 162 ************************************* NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message.