> Can SKS tell me when Dundee went from > being considered a part of Forfar to > then being considered a part of Angus?  I'm trying to > cite my records > properly for the time period, and can't seem to find this > info out online. > (I'm sure I'm just not looking in the right place !  > :-)  !! It did, or it didn't, depending on how you look at things and what time period you are thinking about. First of all, the county of Angus, which includes the city of Dundee, was known by officialdom (but not necessarily by the inhabitants) as Forfarshire from some time in the 18th century until 1929, when its traditional name was restored by Act of Parliament. So in effect Angus and Forfarshire, or the County of Forfar, or the County of Angus, are exactly the same for all practical purposes. Note that in Scotland we never refer to our counties as, for example, 'Angus County', as is done in North America. The confusion arises because the county town (administrative centre) of the County of Angus was the town of Forfar, which sits in the parish of the same name. Dundee was never part of the parish or town of Forfar, but it was in the county of Angus, which was also known for a time as Forfarshire. It begins to get complicated as recently as 1975, when the local government boundaries in Scotland went through a major reorganisation. Part of this reorganisation involved the abolition of all the town councils (Forfar, Arbroath, Brechin, Kirriemuir, Montrose and Dundee), the creation of two separate new District Councils, the City of Dundee District Council and Angus District Council. Both of these, plus Perth and Kinross District Council, formed part of Tayside Region and were also administered by Tayside Regional Council. Functions were divided between the Region and the Districts; the Region looked after, for example, roads, education, social work etc and the Districts looked after housing, cleansing, libraries, sport and recreation, burial grounds etc etc. Then in 1995 or (my memory for the exact date has let me down) there was another reorganisation, which abolished Tayside Regional Council, removed the word District from both Angus Council and the City of Dundee Council, and made the former districts into all-purpose authorities responsible for all aspects of local government. However the various reorganisations affected only local government. For ceremonial purposes the traditional counties remain unchanged; in other words the Queen's Lord Lieutenant for the county of Angus still includes Dundee in his/her patch, and it remains perfectly correct to say that Dundee is in the County of Angus, even though there is no longer an Angus County Council responsible for the administrative functions of the local authority. When I was growing up in Forfar, it was drilled into me that the name 'Forfarshire'/'County of Forfar' was a temporary aberration to be eschewed. I was and am proud to be a native of the county of Angus, and it still produces a faint wave of irritation when I see it referred to as 'Forfar' instead of 'the County of Forfar' or 'Forfarshire'. For the avoidance of confusion I use the name 'Forfar' exclusively for the burgh (town) of Forfar and the surrounding parish, and I always use 'Angus' for the county. I also ignore the new councils entirely unless citing a document which was produced by one of them. For family history research purposes their only relevance is in knowing which one has custody of the records of the former local authorities you wish to look at. This very probably does not help with your question, because the whole thing has been a bit of a dog's breakfast since the 1975 reorganisation. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to modify my rather over-simplified account! Anne

Thanks to Anne and the others who answered this question. Wonderful historical information and perspective -- thanks! I think I'm clear on most things. I think, I think! What I THINK I'm hearing, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the important thing in the reference is for someone to be able to find the records, so all BMD records up to and including 1928 which happened in Dundee would be referenced as "Dundee, Forfarshire, Soctland" and not "Dundee, Angus, Scotland." But 1929+ events would be recorded as "Dundee, Angus, Scotland." Because at the time the event occurred (pre 1929)-- Dundee was part of the administrative shire of Forfarshire. Although I would socially refer to my ancestors as from Angus, formerly Forfarshire? Is this correct? Just want to keep my references straight. If this isn't correct, please let me know! (Or am I just assuming this is a correct citation for place because it's like a US citation of town, county, state?) But ... where does this mean the records were kept for Dundee, now that I'm thinking about this? Were they kept at the City level or ??? (i.e. if Angus had the administrative center as Forfar, what was the administrative center of Forfarshire? Dundee?) I also found this reference to Dundee as being a part of the burgh of Angus in 1803, so now am wondering when it went from Angus to Forfar, now that we've resolved the Forfar-Angus (1929) issue. REf: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/ANS/Dundee/index.html. This transition is important to me in referencing the BMD's of my family and records for them appear to begin ~ 1800 in Dundee. (I've had similar issues in the US, with towns forming out of other towns and town lines being changed and new counties being formed. So, until I understood what was going on historically with the administrative boundaries, I just thought my people were moving all over the place, but they weren't. They were in the same location for 150 years, just all these political/administrative events affected how the BMDs were recorded, and where the records were located -- 3 locations! -- so I've learned on this Rhode Island family to cite the record as it was recorded in whatever administrative unit it was recorded in. If that makes any sense....!) And, I'll certainly keep Anne's comment in mind about how the abbreviated term "Forfar" can be heard/received by natives. This too, is important.! Thanks Anne! Best wishes, and thanks again to all, Marilyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anne Burgess" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [ANGUS] Dundee -- Once Forfar now Angus -- When? > Can SKS tell me when Dundee went from > being considered a part of Forfar to > then being considered a part of Angus? I'm trying to > cite my records > properly for the time period, and can't seem to find this > info out online. > (I'm sure I'm just not looking in the right place ! > :-) !! It did, or it didn't, depending on how you look at things and what time period you are thinking about. First of all, the county of Angus, which includes the city of Dundee, was known by officialdom (but not necessarily by the inhabitants) as Forfarshire from some time in the 18th century until 1929, when its traditional name was restored by Act of Parliament. So in effect Angus and Forfarshire, or the County of Forfar, or the County of Angus, are exactly the same for all practical purposes. Note that in Scotland we never refer to our counties as, for example, 'Angus County', as is done in North America. The confusion arises because the county town (administrative centre) of the County of Angus was the town of Forfar, which sits in the parish of the same name. Dundee was never part of the parish or town of Forfar, but it was in the county of Angus, which was also known for a time as Forfarshire. It begins to get complicated as recently as 1975, when the local government boundaries in Scotland went through a major reorganisation. Part of this reorganisation involved the abolition of all the town councils (Forfar, Arbroath, Brechin, Kirriemuir, Montrose and Dundee), the creation of two separate new District Councils, the City of Dundee District Council and Angus District Council. Both of these, plus Perth and Kinross District Council, formed part of Tayside Region and were also administered by Tayside Regional Council. Functions were divided between the Region and the Districts; the Region looked after, for example, roads, education, social work etc and the Districts looked after housing, cleansing, libraries, sport and recreation, burial grounds etc etc. Then in 1995 or (my memory for the exact date has let me down) there was another reorganisation, which abolished Tayside Regional Council, removed the word District from both Angus Council and the City of Dundee Council, and made the former districts into all-purpose authorities responsible for all aspects of local government. However the various reorganisations affected only local government. For ceremonial purposes the traditional counties remain unchanged; in other words the Queen's Lord Lieutenant for the county of Angus still includes Dundee in his/her patch, and it remains perfectly correct to say that Dundee is in the County of Angus, even though there is no longer an Angus County Council responsible for the administrative functions of the local authority. When I was growing up in Forfar, it was drilled into me that the name 'Forfarshire'/'County of Forfar' was a temporary aberration to be eschewed. I was and am proud to be a native of the county of Angus, and it still produces a faint wave of irritation when I see it referred to as 'Forfar' instead of 'the County of Forfar' or 'Forfarshire'. For the avoidance of confusion I use the name 'Forfar' exclusively for the burgh (town) of Forfar and the surrounding parish, and I always use 'Angus' for the county. I also ignore the new councils entirely unless citing a document which was produced by one of them. For family history research purposes their only relevance is in knowing which one has custody of the records of the former local authorities you wish to look at. This very probably does not help with your question, because the whole thing has been a bit of a dog's breakfast since the 1975 reorganisation. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to modify my rather over-simplified account! Anne ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> What I THINK I'm hearing, and please correct me if I'm > wrong, is that the important thing in the reference is for > someone to be able to find the records, so all BMD records > up to and including 1928 which happened in Dundee would be > referenced as "Dundee, Forfarshire, Soctland" and not > "Dundee, Angus, Scotland."  That is possible. I'd have to have a look at some certificates to check the wording on the top line of the page. I think, however, that the wording would be '.... in the county of Forfar' rather than '.... in the county of Forfarshire' (which would be tautological). > But 1929+ events would be > recorded as "Dundee, Angus, Scotland."  Because at the > time the event occurred (pre 1929)-- Dundee was part of the > administrative shire of Forfarshire.  Although I would > socially refer to my ancestors as from Angus, formerly > Forfarshire?  Is this correct?  Just want to keep > my references straight.  If this isn't correct, please > let me know!  What I am saying is that I personally never, ever, use 'Forfarshire' at all, because 'Forfarshire' is (a) synonymous with Angus and (b) has the potential to be confused with the town and/or parish of Forfar. > But ... where does this mean the records were kept for > Dundee, now that I'm thinking about this?  Were they > kept at the City level or ???  (i.e. if Angus had the > administrative center as Forfar, what was the administrative > center of Forfarshire?  Dundee?) No. Angus and Forfarshire are and always were identical until 1975. Forfar was the administrative centre for the whole of Angus, including Dundee, (though there were also town councils in Forfar, Dundee, Arbroath, Carnoustie etc etc) throughout the time before, during, and after the county was also known by officialdome as 'Forfarshire'. Dundee was never the administrative centre of any county, though it is and was the largest burgh/town in the Angus. Registers of BMDs from 1855 were kept at registration district level, and were gathered together at national level in Edinburgh. In any case, the indexes at GROS and on Scotland's People don't refer at all to the counties. They use only the registration district names and numbers, so it is completely unnecessary to know which county any event occurred in in order to find the certificate. You would only need to know which county it was if you were determined to track down and look at the duplicate set of registers held in the registrars' offices, and even those are not necessarily held in the county where the event occurred. The ones for the county of Kincardine from 1855 to 1899, for instance, are in the registrar's office in Aberdeen. > I also found this reference to Dundee as being a part of > the burgh of Angus in 1803, so now am wondering when it went > from Angus to Forfar, now that we've resolved the > Forfar-Angus (1929) issue.  REf:  http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/ANS/Dundee/index.html.  That reference describes Dundee, quite correctly, as "A royal burgh in the county of Angus". Angus was never a burgh, and Dundee never went from Angus to Forfar or vice versa. Note that this reference, dated 1803, uses the correct traditional term, 'Angus', not 'Forfarshire'. > This transition is important to me in referencing the BMD's > of my family and records for them appear to begin ~ 1800 in > Dundee. Make it easy for yourself and everyone else. Use 'Angus' for the county and 'Forfar' only if referring to the parish or town/burgh of Forfar, and don't use Forfarshire at all. > I've learned on this Rhode Island > family to cite the record as it was recorded in whatever > administrative unit it was recorded in.  If that makes > any sense....!) Yes. But the point is that Angus is exactly the same as Forfarshire is exactly the same as the county of Angus is exactly he same as the county of Forfar. Until 1975, it isn't a case of moving boundaries or changing the local areas, and in any case registration was done at registration district level, which is originally the same as the parishes, except within the city of Dundee which was subdivided in various ways with ever-changing boundaries. > And, I'll certainly keep Anne's comment in mind about how > the abbreviated term "Forfar" can be heard/received by > natives.  This too, is important.!  Thanks Anne! It's only an abbreviation if it is used to refer to Angus, of course. Anne

Hi Marilyn, Anne's explanation is the best you could get, I think. Some elaboration on it follows, though at the risk of introducing more confusion... :) Angus is a county (or 'shire'), which for a while was called Forfarshire or 'County of Forfar', from the 18th century until 1928. Within Angus or Forfarshire, if you're looking for records as in OPR, usually Angus will pull them up, though if searching older catalogues try 'Forfarshire'. If in doubt, refer to the Scotland's People site documentation. OPR records are now centralised at NRS, from the 19th century, but copies/microfilms are often available locally. Some other records are centralised, and it's always useful checking with NRS as to where things are. Within Angus, the county, there are/were several burghs (towns). (The terms Burgh, Royal Burgh, and Burgh of Barony are specific and relate to the rights and duties of the burgh concerned.) Both Forfar and Dundee are Royal Burghs, as are Montrose, Arbroath and Brechin. Records for each, such as sheriff court records, would be kept there - but are now located in various repositories including Forfar, Angus archives (Restenneth, near Forfar) Dundee archives, Dundee University archives, Dundee public library, and St Andrews University archives. And some at NRS (previously NAS). Local records for bits of Angus which weren't royal burghs or indeed burghs at all may be in Forfar or elsewhere - all need checking. (E.g. the Kirk Session records for Airlie are in St Andrew's University archives.) I have some ancestors (possibly) from Airlie and Kingoldrum in the 18th century. I'd refer to them as from Angus. If I had some from Forfar burgh (which I don't to my knowledge) I'd refer to them as from the Royal Burgh of Forfar. Dundee ones - City and Royal Burgh of Dundee, or earlier just the Royal Burgh of Dundee. I grew up with my address being Dundee, Angus, Scotland. Throughout Scotland, and indeed the UK, just 'Dundee' will signify the City of Dundee. That aside, the town, village, or hamlet name plus 'Angus' is all that's needed. (Unless you're putting something on Ancestry, in which case if you don't put a country often Ancestry tries to default to a US place!) So, for instance, 'Kirkton of Auchterhouse, Angus' would be a suitable designation for where my g-grandfather was in the 1841 census, even though at that time the county was deemed to be called 'Forfarshire'. However, if what you are looking for is a precise reference for an old parochial or for a statutory record, rather than the place, I tend to use the GROS number. All best, Jenny On 27/07/2011 18:03, Marilyn Arnold wrote: > What I THINK I'm hearing, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the important thing in the reference is for someone to be able to find the records, so all BMD records up to and including 1928 which happened in Dundee would be referenced as "Dundee, Forfarshire, Soctland" and not "Dundee, Angus, Scotland." But 1929+ events would be recorded as "Dundee, Angus, Scotland." Because at the time the event occurred (pre 1929)-- Dundee was part of the administrative shire of Forfarshire. Although I would socially refer to my ancestors as from Angus, formerly Forfarshire? Is this correct? Just want to keep my references straight. If this isn't correct, please let me know! (Or am I just assuming this is a correct citation for place because it's like a US citation of town, county, state?) > > But ... where does this mean the records were kept for Dundee, now that I'm thinking about this? Were they kept at the City level or ??? (i.e. if Angus had the administrative center as Forfar, what was the administrative center of Forfarshire? Dundee?) > > I also found this reference to Dundee as being a part of the burgh of Angus in 1803, so now am wondering when it went from Angus to Forfar, now that we've resolved the Forfar-Angus (1929) issue. REf: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/ANS/Dundee/index.html. This transition is important to me in referencing the BMD's of my family and records for them appear to begin ~ 1800 in Dundee.

Many thanks for a very clear and concise explanation - from one who was born and bred in Dundee - and thoroughly confused by the various 'reorganisations' the happened whilst I was living in the deep south of England and not paying attention to what was happening 'at home' because I was too busy bringing up a family!! Pat "Here's tae us! Wha's like us? Damn few! - an' they're a' deid!" Old Scots Toast Check out my website www.genesontheweb.co.uk PC>-----Original Message----- PC>From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On PC>Behalf Of Anne Burgess PC>Sent: 27 July 2011 16:52 PC>To: [email protected]; [email protected] PC>Subject: Re: [ANGUS] Dundee -- Once Forfar now Angus -- When? PC> PC>> Can SKS tell me when Dundee went from PC>> being considered a part of Forfar to PC>> then being considered a part of Angus?  PC> PC>It did, or it didn't, depending on how you look at things and what time PC>period you are thinking about. PC> PC>First of all, the county of Angus, which includes the city of Dundee, was PC>known by officialdom (but not necessarily by the inhabitants)