Bruce Dorward wrote: >Forty years on this might have been by steamship therefor faster (slightly) >and less dependant on wind strength and direction. Also maybe a higher >passenger density and, if the voyage time was a few days shorter (and more >reliably done in that time) there would be less catering cost for the >passenger's food. So a lower fare would be possible. > > It's far from clear that a "steerage" passage would include food! The 1866 scale of charges for "cabin" passengers includes something called "Steward's Fee", which does not appear with the "deck" passage, so I suspect that a passage on deck was a bit like a flight with a budget airline today, ie no extras included. >Also, by 1860 the shipping companies would be experiencing some competition >from the railways, at least at the top end of the fare structure, so might >be offering lower fares just to stay in business. > > On the other hand, the sailing ship cost less to run. Even in 1866 the ships on the London passage still had inefficient single-expansion engines, so were profitable only with high-value cargoes, such as people. I seem to recall that the original query referred to the mid 1820s. At that date, passengers still had the choice between sail and steam. I haven't yet found a list of prices for that sort of date, but I would expect the sail option actually to be cheaper than the 1866 steam passage. Gavin Bell

Can someone point me in the direction of how I might learn more about buying fishing rights on the Tay? My Powries were said to have (historically) been salmon fishers on the Tay. I'm specifically interested in: a.. where I'd learn more about salmon fishing on the Tay/in Dundee/this area of Scotland (was it seasonal? If so what seasons? what territories might they have explored/trolled, ports used, etc.) b.. how would fishing rights be bought/sold? c.. where would such fishing rights be recorded? d.. are fishing rights like land rights in terms of ownership? e.. what entity(ies) might have these records and/or more information? While my John Powrie (1833-1919) worked in the jute mills (tenter jute; heating engineer; other); his death certificate indicates his father John Powrie (b. 1814, Errol) was a "salmon fisher." (Although in all census records is shown to be in the weaving business). Thank you! Marilyn Arnold

Marilyn Arnold wrote: >Can someone point me in the direction of how I might learn more about buying fishing rights on the Tay? My Powries were said to have (historically) been salmon fishers on the Tay ... > At the present time "salmon fishing on the Tay" almost certainly refers to sport fishing with rod and line, and you can find out someting about it by appropriate Googling.. But if your ancestors gave their occupation as "salmon fisher" (or, in older sources, possibly "lax fisher") then they were more likely to have been employed by the owners of the rights to catch fish by net in the estuary and the tidal reaches of the river. I don't know what "fishings" there were anciently on the Tay, but the fishings on the Rivers Dee and Don figure regularly in the records of the Town of Aberdeen, and this may give some pointers to how things were organised on the Tay. There were half a dozen named fishing stations on the lower 2 miles of the River Dee, while on the River Don there appear to have been both netting rights and "cruives", a kind of fish-trap. These were valuable rights, whose sale and purchase regularly appear in the Town's "Notarial Protocoll Books" alongside transfers of land and houses. They were also mentioned specifically in the Town's "Stent Roll" (tax returns), the total taxes collected from the owners of the fishings in 1669 being equivalent to an annual turnover of £35,000 on land-based trading - a very large amount for the time. Gavin Bell

Would one of the wonderful and knowledgable folks on this list be able to steer me towards learning more about the Temperance Party/movement in Dundee? Specifically, I'd welcome information on: a.. how/where to get more information? b.. membership? How to learn who were members of this party? c.. what/who/what groups caused this movement to be started? d.. was this affiliated with any particular church? e.. was placing a gravestone of a member commonplace or would this indicate a more senior/noted elder member of the Party? A distant cousin has indicated that one of our family was a member of this party and that his gravestone was placed by this organization in his honor. Thank you! Marilyn Arnold DC

Hi Marilyn, A short browse in Google revealed a few things, mainly that the Temperance Party of Scotland was essencially a political party, it founder, Edwin Scrymgeour of Dundee, was elected to Parliament. While it probably had its roots in the temperance movement on both sides of the Atlantic the party does not seem to have been directly affiliated to it. You might like to read: About Edwin Scrmygeour, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Scrymgeour . and www.mcgonigal-online.org.uk/poems/pgmurphy.htm , you might want to skip the poem and scroll down to some background on page 2. By the way, I have tried to send you something directly on another recent subject with an attachment. I have tried twice and it bounced. Could you check that your e-mail settings do not exclude me or items with attachments. Cheers, Bruce D ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marilyn Arnold" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 3:30 AM Subject: [ANGUS] Temperance Party abt 1900, Dundee > Would one of the wonderful and knowledgable folks on this list be able to > steer me towards learning more about the Temperance Party/movement in > Dundee? Specifically, I'd welcome information on: > > a.. how/where to get more information? > b.. membership? How to learn who were members of this party? > c.. what/who/what groups caused this movement to be started? > d.. was this affiliated with any particular church? > e.. was placing a gravestone of a member commonplace or would this > indicate a more senior/noted elder member of the Party? > > A distant cousin has indicated that one of our family was a member of this > party and that his gravestone was placed by this organization in his > honor. > > Thank you! > Marilyn Arnold > DC > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1410 / Virus Database: 1520/3938 - Release Date: 10/04/11 >

Thanks Bruce, all, for your response to my email about the Temperance Party. What was interesting about the info at Wikipedia was that in the early 1920s, the Temperance Party of Dundee became the Communist Party of Scotland, so don't know what to make of that (relative to family history!!!) My family seemed to be so very "ordinary" relative to the law. Temperance, I understand as my ONE Scotish GG-GM, Julianna Innes Powrie, dau. John Powrie and Jane Haddon Innes married a Methodist Minister (George Davies, b. 1864, Moxley, England) and no, no, no alcohol there! (Providence, RI, various towns in New England because Methodist Ministers were moved frequently between parishes within the Conference.) But, Communist? Wouldn't his granddaughter be turning over in her grave today (Julia Davies, b. 1894, m. Willard Arnold, another Methodist Minister, and again, no alcohol, and certainly no comunists! Just pretty ordinary, but very staunch New England puritans ....). All very interesting. Much for thought! A few very new eye-openers to share with my cousins. (Their descendants) We're a much more diverse group, one Muslim m. to an Episcopalian (children: confused), mostly Protestants, 3 Meth. ministers, but still ... no known Communists! Thanks again to Bruce and this list! You are all wonderful! Opening my eyes to some new "facts" on my family -- not exactly expected, but ... all interesting, none-the-less! Marilyn DC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Dorward" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 4:46 AM Subject: Re: [ANGUS] Temperance Party abt 1900, Dundee > Hi Marilyn, > > A short browse in Google revealed a few things, mainly that the Temperance > Party of Scotland was essencially a political party, it founder, Edwin > Scrymgeour of Dundee, was elected to Parliament. While it probably had its > roots in the temperance movement on both sides of the Atlantic the party > does not seem to have been directly affiliated to it. > > You might like to read: > About Edwin Scrmygeour, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Scrymgeour . > and > www.mcgonigal-online.org.uk/poems/pgmurphy.htm , you might want to skip > the > poem and scroll down to some background on page 2. > > By the way, I have tried to send you something directly on another recent > subject with an attachment. I have tried twice and it bounced. Could you > check that your e-mail settings do not exclude me or items with > attachments. > > Cheers, > Bruce D > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marilyn Arnold" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 3:30 AM > Subject: [ANGUS] Temperance Party abt 1900, Dundee > > >> Would one of the wonderful and knowledgable folks on this list be able to >> steer me towards learning more about the Temperance Party/movement in >> Dundee? Specifically, I'd welcome information on: >> >> a.. how/where to get more information? >> b.. membership? How to learn who were members of this party? >> c.. what/who/what groups caused this movement to be started? >> d.. was this affiliated with any particular church? >> e.. was placing a gravestone of a member commonplace or would this >> indicate a more senior/noted elder member of the Party? >> >> A distant cousin has indicated that one of our family was a member of >> this >> party and that his gravestone was placed by this organization in his >> honor. >> >> Thank you! >> Marilyn Arnold >> DC >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1410 / Virus Database: 1520/3938 - Release Date: 10/04/11 >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message