Perhaps this isn't the right list for this question. ... If so, other thoughts are appreciated. I'm piecing together my family history, little by little -- thanks to this list! (And the help of others!) My ancestor, Wm Innes was in Dundee before 1822, living in WestGate where he was a change-keeper (kept an inn or pub). (He was also a nailer/nail maker). His wife, Helen Hay Innes ran a shop in West Gate in 1823. They had two known (to me) children: James Innes (b. 1803, Inveresk) and William James Innes (b. 1806, Sterling). Son James remained in Dundee, worked in Smalls Wynd as a saw maker/saw repairman. Married and had children. They (and Helen Hay Innes, who took back her maiden name) were buried in the Howff. Son William, like his father, was also a nailer/nail maker, and was also involved in "utterance"/forgery. Son Wm was sentenced April 1823 to 14 years transportation, and I've found him through these 14 years in the Tasmanian penal colonies. (Doesn't appear to have returned to Dundee.) And there's a 3rd trial involving a Wm Innes of Dundee for the same crime, which I haven't yet figured out which Wm these records belong to without more details. The father William Innes (b. ~ 1784): Sometime in 1821/1822 William got himself involved in "utterance" or forgery and was tried Jan 1822 to 7 years transportation. (I'm getting the court records sent from the Archives in Edinburgh, but they're $$$$$ nearly $240 US. No small change!) I have found him on the Gaol Reports as being first in Edinburgh, then on two different prisoner ships (converted from military vessels), Woolwich, England (greater London). Through these records I can see he was pardoned in November 1825 -- 3 years after the crime. He was reported to be a man of remarkable character. How very sad. Question -- Would he have returned to Dundee or stayed in London? How difficult was transportation in that time period? If he came back to his wife and son James and young family, I'm assuming this would have been by ship? How long would it have taken? Were prisoners given any money when released? If he had no money upon release what would he have done? As a prisoner, would he have been allowed to send and receive mail? Could family have sent him money for the return? How would he have been received in the community as a former convict and prisoner? Would he have been shunned and unable to find work? I can find son James Innes in various Dundee City Directories that are available on line, but could not find Wm in the 1818 Directory. Sorry for so many questions .... Thanks, in advance, for any help you listers might be able to provide in helping to sort out my Innes family of Dundee. Marilyn Arnold DC

RE: Howff burials at: http://www.fdca.org.uk/. If burial is not stated as Old Howff or New Howff is the listing the same as the above or is it not known? I know that the New Howff was paved over for a parking lot. (ack!) Dare I ask what happened to the graves, the bodies and the stones? In the 1800s did most people have caskets or not? My Innes ancestors seem to have been buried in the Howff. Some in the old, some in the new and some were not indicated in that box in the excel file. My POWRIE burials remain unknown at this time, with chance of finding them, small. About 5 years ago there used to be a site online which was GREAT and had not only burials, but sort of a map from the cemetery which indicated burial plots and who was buried where -- a wonderful tool to help determine who is related to whom. I have not been able to find this. Can anyone tell me where this might have been moved? It also had pictures of some of the graves. It was a private researcher, a man, I believe, who put this up. If this site doesn't exist, does someone know where records are that have the cemetery plots listing families that would have this info? Thanks! Marilyn WDC

Marilyn Arnold wrote: >Perhaps this isn't the right list for this question. ... > It definitely is! Thank you for such a colourful account. I can't answer all your questions, but here are one or two thoughts: >... >... Married and had children. They >(and Helen Hay Innes, who took back her maiden name) were buried in the >Howff. > I doubt if Helen did "take back her maiden name" - she probably never lost it. The convention of the wife adopting the husband's surname was at that date not universal in Scotland. If Jean Smith married John Brown, she became "Jean Smith or Brown", a formulation that still occurs today in formal contexts such as Wills. In the Census, she was just as likely to be listed as "Jean Smith" as "Jean Brown" and if she was widowed, she might become either "Widow Smith" or "Widow Brown" - one ancestor of mine seems to have answered to both. >Son William, like his father, was also a nailer/nail maker, and was >also involved in "utterance"/forgery. > I'm intrigued by the coincidence of two nail makers becoming forgers. Do you know what it was they "uttered"? I'm guessing it was counterfeit coins, as paper money was at that date something of a rarity, and consequently difficult to pass off. A nail maker would have a forge and anvil, so perhaps there was a built-in professional temptation to start stamping out half-crowns made of lead! >... > >Question -- Would he have returned to Dundee or stayed in London? > I really don't believe that we can, with any confidence, say what our ancestors might or might not do in particular circumstances. It is unlikely that we can ever discover all the relevant factors which might have had an effect on their decisions, and we certainly can't get inside their minds. >How >difficult was transportation in that time period? If he came back to his >wife and son James and young family, I'm assuming this would have been by >ship? > That would have been cheaper than the overland journey. >How long would it have taken? > The first "steam packets" were by then employed on the more lucrative routes, such as carrying mail across the English Channel and Irish Sea, but I suspect that the Dundee to London route was still covered by sailing ships, which necessarily were at the mercy of the weather, and did not run to fixed timetables. I would expect the journey to last some days, perhaps (with contrary winds) as much as a week. >Were prisoners given any money when >released? If he had no money upon release what would he have done? As a >prisoner, would he have been allowed to send and receive mail? > I don't know whether prisoners could receive mail. But this was before the introduction of the "Penny Post", so mail charges were normally paid by the recipient, not the sender. Once he was released, of course, he could have sent a message himself, requesting replies to an inn - or perhaps to the shipping office.. >Could family >have sent him money for the return? > I think it likely that the regular ships between London and the Scottish ports might well have acted as carriers of letters or parcels, just as carters did on land (and "country buses" did in the days of my youth). Or the family could have paid for his passage in Dundee. >How would he have been received in the >community as a former convict and prisoner? Would he have been shunned and >unable to find work? > > "Shunning" strikes me as typical of small, inward-looking societies. He would probably have been well advised not to seek out the company of those whom he might have practised his "utterance" on, but Dundee was by then embarked on its great 19th-century expansion, so would have offered (a) a measure of anonymity, and (b) a growing range of employments in the jute mills. Gavin Bell